Justin Fashanu

[bangkoksaint]

I see that he has been inducted in to the hall of fame today. I heard his niece being interviewed and he was truly a trailblazer and great ambassador. What happened to him was tragic but he is an ex-Saint and he has my respect. RIP Justin, you’re not forgotten.

[RedArmy]

Hall of fame? What a load of yank nonsense.

[VectisSaint]

Hall of fame? What a load of yank nonsense.

German (Bavarian) idea actually (Ruhmeshalle, Munich)

[sadoldgit]

One of his con temporise was talking about the amount of abuse he used to get yesterday. Sounds appalling. Still the only footballer to come out as gay. People shouldn’t have to, but until more do it will not be normalised. If rugby players can do it...

[Turkish]

One of his con temporise was talking about the amount of abuse he used to get yesterday. Sounds appalling. Still the only footballer to come out as gay. People shouldn’t have to, but until more do it will not be normalised. If rugby players can do it...

 

How will it be normalised if more come out? Do we need people to come out as heterosexual too?

[darren2]

How will it be normalised if more come out? Do we need people to come out as heterosexual too?

 

What an idiotic comment. People don't get abused for being heterosexual. (I'm Heterosexual BTW)

[the saint in winchester]

I see that he has been inducted in to the hall of fame today. I heard his niece being interviewed and he was truly a trailblazer and great ambassador. What happened to him was tragic but he is an ex-Saint and he has my respect. RIP Justin, you’re not forgotten.

 

I saw it too. Amal is easy on the eye, hope to see more of her. Um, ex-Saint? Can't find evidence of that online and I have supported Saints 50 years, so remind me?

[sydney_saint]

What an idiotic comment. People don't get abused for being heterosexual. (I'm Heterosexual BTW)

Don't give the troll any oxygen. Hes long shown to display homophobic and transphobic views.

 

On Fashanu, once again we can see the impact of the tabloids, especially the sun, on a person's mental health and the high degree and abuse they give out. Really sad and I'm glad he is being honoured. Ahead of his time and an inspiration for many young footballers.

 

Sent from my CPH1835 using Tapatalk

[hypochondriac]

One of his con temporise was talking about the amount of abuse he used to get yesterday. Sounds appalling. Still the only footballer to come out as gay. People shouldn’t have to, but until more do it will not be normalised. If rugby players can do it...

Yes loads of abuse. Let's be thankful that the situation is markedly different now eh?

 

Not sure what the hall of fame is but he was definitely a pioneer so I'm cool with him being honoured. Must have been very difficult for him.

[hypochondriac]

What an idiotic comment. People don't get abused for being heterosexual. (I'm Heterosexual BTW)

Congrats on coming out.

[Turkish]

What an idiotic comment. People don't get abused for being heterosexual. (I'm Heterosexual BTW)

 

You’re missing point. He said it’s need to be normalised, how is a gay person announcing they’re gay normalising it?

[Turkish]

Don't give the troll any oxygen. Hes long shown to display homophobic and transphobic views.

 

On Fashanu, once again we can see the impact of the tabloids, especially the sun, on a person's mental health and the high degree and abuse they give out. Really sad and I'm glad he is being honoured. Ahead of his time and an inspiration for many young footballers.

 

Sent from my CPH1835 using Tapatalk

 

Utter nonsense but no surprise that led to accusations of being homophobic

 

My point is for it to normalised why do we need them coming out? “Coming out” isn’t normalising it as heterosexual people don’t come out.

[Kenilworthy]

On loan at start of the 82-83 season. First ever loan player to score for Saints.

[Turkish]

I saw it too. Amal is easy on the eye, hope to see more of her. Um, ex-Saint? Can't find evidence of that online and I have supported Saints 50 years, so remind me?

 

He was on loan for about 10 games in the early 80s

[sydney_saint]

Utter nonsense but no surprise that led to accusations of being homophobic

 

My point is for it to normalised why do we need them coming out? “Coming out” isn’t normalising it as heterosexual people don’t come out.

 

Oh you are a sophisticated troll I will give you that. You will never say anything directly homophobic or transphobic, because that is too easy for others. You skirt around the issue and try to create arguments on side points. You are trying to turn this into a coming out thing heterosexual vs homosexual. Your comment to this thread was to distract solely. I'm not going down this path.

 

Fashanu was a true pioneer and inspiration for many young footballers. I can't imagine the abuse he went through and how horrific it was. And let's not forget a very good footballer as well.

[Colinjb]

You’re missing point. He said it’s need to be normalised, how is a gay person announcing they’re gay normalising it?

 

Exactly. When 'coming out' stops being a thing, and the reaction is, 'so what?' then progress will have truly been made. It's extremely heartening to see that with the children I work with, sexuality is becoming less and less important as an issue, it's simply another variation in people like hair colour.

[hypochondriac]

Oh you are a sophisticated troll I will give you that. You will never say anything directly homophobic or transphobic, because that is too easy for others. You skirt around the issue and try to create arguments on side points. You are trying to turn this into a coming out thing heterosexual vs homosexual. Your comment to this thread was to distract solely. I'm not going down this path.

 

Fashanu was a true pioneer and inspiration for many young footballers. I can't imagine the abuse he went through and how horrific it was. And let's not forget a very good footballer as well.

Now I remember who you are. You're the poster that got all sweary and angry a couple of years ago because some posters criticised the club's transgender flag waving virtue signalling. That makes sense. From memory you had a trans family member. Just a suggestion but maybe it's better not to start calling people names like homophobic if your judgement is clouded by your personal associations. Creating arguments on side points as you describe it may annoy you but it's hardly evidence of bigotry. Edited 20 February, 2020 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Exactly. When 'coming out' stops being a thing, and the reaction is, 'so what?' then progress will have truly been made. It's extremely heartening to see that with the children I work with, sexuality is becoming less and less important as an issue, it's simply another variation in people like hair colour.

That's good to know. It seems that some people want to continue to make a big song and dance out of it sadly. As you say, hopefully with the next generation we won't have these sort of attitudes.

[Turkish]

Oh you are a sophisticated troll I will give you that. You will never say anything directly homophobic or transphobic, because that is too easy for others. You skirt around the issue and try to create arguments on side points. You are trying to turn this into a coming out thing heterosexual vs homosexual. Your comment to this thread was to distract solely. I'm not going down this path.

 

Fashanu was a true pioneer and inspiration for many young footballers. I can't imagine the abuse he went through and how horrific it was. And let's not forget a very good footballer as well.

 

It’s not a question of being sophisticated. It’s a very simple question that you seem to be getting very angry about. How is a gay person “coming out” normalising homosexuality?

[Turkish]

Exactly. When 'coming out' stops being a thing, and the reaction is, 'so what?' then progress will have truly been made. It's extremely heartening to see that with the children I work with, sexuality is becoming less and less important as an issue, it's simply another variation in people like hair colour.

 

Spot on. Coming out isn’t normalising it as heterosexuals don’t come out as heterosexual. It will be only normalised when no one has to do this. But that won’t stop people getting all angry and accusing others of homophobia for saying that.

[saint1977]

Yes loads of abuse. Let's be thankful that the situation is markedly different now eh?

 

Not sure what the hall of fame is but he was definitely a pioneer so I'm cool with him being honoured. Must have been very difficult for him.

 

Brian Clough was a truly great manager but seemingly didn’t manage Justin Fashanu very well by more recent standards after reports of Fashanu being in known gay bars in Nottingham. Hence the loan spell at Saints after he was effectively kicked out of Forest and he did well, Lawrie couldn’t quite raise the funds for a permanent move.

 

Probably a bit of frustration from Clough at the big new stand draining Forest’s finances which also led to Shilton joining Saints as well as the outdated social attitudes from his postwar era. Different era now thankfully in this aspect, although football was much more competitive then.

[hypochondriac]

Brian Clough was a truly great manager but seemingly didn’t manage Justin Fashanu very well by more recent standards after reports of Fashanu being in known gay bars in Nottingham. Hence the loan spell at Saints after he was effectively kicked out of Forest and he did well, Lawrie couldn’t quite raise the funds for a permanent move.

 

Probably a bit of frustration from Clough at the big new stand draining Forest’s finances which also led to Shilton joining Saints as well as the outdated social attitudes from his postwar era. Different era now thankfully in this aspect, although football was much more competitive then.

It's hard to criticise as it's obviously a different time, but I can imagine that clough wouldn't have handled somethibg like that particularly well. It's a shame he wasn't born a few decades later, a top footballer coming out as gay now would make millions.

[Turkish]

That's good to know. It seems that some people want to continue to make a big song and dance out of it sadly. As you say, hopefully with the next generation we won't have these sort of attitudes.

 

It’s very strange that on a thread where I’m supporting homosexuality by normalising it so that gay people don’t feel the need to come out I’ve been subject to abuse and accusations of homophobia. I guess some people don’t want it to be normal.

[Toussaint]

Oh you are a sophisticated troll I will give you that. You will never say anything directly homophobic or transphobic, because that is too easy for others. You skirt around the issue and try to create arguments on side points. You are trying to turn this into a coming out thing heterosexual vs homosexual. Your comment to this thread was to distract solely. I'm not going down this path.

 

Fashanu was a true pioneer and inspiration for many young footballers. I can't imagine the abuse he went through and how horrific it was. And let's not forget a very good footballer as well.

 

Your not posting on the Guardian, please stop.

[hypochondriac]

It’s very strange that on a thread where I’m supporting homosexuality by normalising it so that gay people don’t feel the need to come out I’ve been subject to abuse and accusations of homophobia. I guess some people don’t want it to be normal.

I do wonder what would have happened if someone like Philip Schofield had been refused an interview on this morning and literally no one talked about it because it wasn't news how Philip would have really felt about that. I don't think he'd admit it but I reckon he'd have been really disappointed that the fact he is gay wasn't front page news. I think for most gay people they just want to blend in and be who they are but we all know there is an element that think they are special and want to metaphorically scream their identity at everyone. Edited 20 February, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Colinjb]

It's hard to criticise as it's obviously a different time, but I can imagine that clough wouldn't have handled somethibg like that particularly well. It's a shame he wasn't born a few decades later, a top footballer coming out as gay now would make millions.

 

From memory (reading one of Clough's biographies,) they had a conversation along the lines of:

 

BC: "Justin, where do you go to get Bread?"

JF: "Bakers, boss."

BC: "Right, and if you wanted some bacon........"

JF: "Butchers, I guess....."

BC: "Right, so why the f**k do you keep going to that bloody p**fs bar?"

 

To say he was from a different time would be an understatement.

Edited 20 February, 2020 by Colinjb

[oldskoolsi]

It’s not a question of being sophisticated. It’s a very simple question that you seem to be getting very angry about. How is a gay person “coming out” normalising homosexuality?

 

There are plenty of ways to 'come out'. There's the Phillip Schofield way, which seemed all about sensation and probably not normalising being gay. However you can come out as gay simply going somewhere public with your partner, public displays of affection, casually mentioning your partner in an interview etc. No statement, no big deal, just doing something 'normal' that heterosexual people do. If the press or general public want to make a big deal out of that's on them.

[hypochondriac]

There are plenty of ways to 'come out'. There's the Phillip Schofield way, which seemed all about sensation and probably not normalising being gay. However you can come out as gay simply going somewhere public with your partner, public displays of affection, casually mentioning your partner in an interview etc. No statement, no big deal, just doing something 'normal' that heterosexual people do. If the press or general public want to make a big deal out of that's on them.

If you're just doing what every other couple does then it's not really coming out is it, otherwise you could say that heterosexual couples are coming out simply by going on a date.

[oldskoolsi]

If you're just doing what every other couple does then it's not really coming out is it, otherwise you could say that heterosexual couples are coming out simply by going on a date.

 

So how can a gay person be normal if they can't show they're gay in the same way a heterosexual shows they're heteroseuxal? In my opinion this is exactly what coming out should be.

[Batman]

So how can a gay person be normal if they can't show they're gay in the same way a heterosexual shows they're heteroseuxal? In my opinion this is exactly what coming out should be.

 

Why is ‘coming out’ even a label?

[shurlock]

Why is ‘coming out’ even a label?

 

With contributions like this, [name removed], I’m surprised the navy lets you near a potato peeler.

Edited 20 February, 2020 by St Chalet

[hypochondriac]

So how can a gay person be normal if they can't show they're gay in the same way a heterosexual shows they're heteroseuxal? In my opinion this is exactly what coming out should be.

If that's the case then why distinguish what they do with a separate term at all? Imo coming out implies some sort of public expression. Abolish the phrase coming out entirely and I reckon that would be a positive thing. I'm happy when people can just exist as either gay or straight without feeling the need to make a big show of it because it proves we are a more tolerant society than we used to be.

[Noodles34]

my attitude to Philip Schofield coming out was , who gives a toss, so i guess that means more than anything.

Clearly very different in JF's day and I can still understand why current PL footballers have an issue coming out, even if it is known who they are.

It's the fans' isnt it, doubt most modern players would give a toss either, but going to a stadium after just coming out would be an issue for most. Can't blame them really.

[hypochondriac]

my attitude to Philip Schofield coming out was , who gives a toss, so i guess that means more than anything.

Clearly very different in JF's day and I can still understand why current PL footballers have an issue coming out, even if it is known who they are.

It's the fans' isnt it, doubt most modern players would give a toss either, but going to a stadium after just coming out would be an issue for most. Can't blame them really.

Would it? I'm not so sure that's true. When a Premier league player does finally come out, the next game will be guards of honour, rainbow laces, pride flags and multi-coloured mohawks. I reckon anyone shouting abuse at the player in that scenario is looking at very heavy punishment.

[egg]

my attitude to Philip Schofield coming out was , who gives a toss, so i guess that means more than anything.

Clearly very different in JF's day and I can still understand why current PL footballers have an issue coming out, even if it is known who they are.

It's the fans' isnt it, doubt most modern players would give a toss either, but going to a stadium after just coming out would be an issue for most. Can't blame them really.

 

I'm not sure why it'd be an issue for a current PL player to come out. Society has moved on so much, and while there'll always be a few knuckle draggers with something to say, your average / normal fan won't give a monkeys.

 

On topic, Fashanu's treatment was typical of the time, but his suicide an indictment of that time. He was a great player and doing something to remember him is well deserved.

[Miltonaggro]

Fashanu played his best football for Norwich as a young kid, including a bona fide wonder goal that was goal of the season, but I don’t think the £1m move to Forest did him any favours - first £1m black player and all that - and he looked a misfit there. During his short loan from Forest to Saints in 82 I saw him play in most of his nine appearances and he looked really good, back in the groove enjoying his football and I think we should have signed him. As it was he signed for Notts County during their short stay in the top flight and after that was a journeyman in the UK and US which seemed a waste of a once precocious talent.

 

When he came out in 1990 he was at Orient with a career that had been on the buffers for five or six years so not sure whether it was bravery or a final big pay day as the Sun broke the story as an orchestrated scandal. So in that sense the Hall of Fame thing seems a tad painting by numbers, as by the time JF was known as Britain’s ‘first gay footballer’ (what nonsense) his career and potential influence was virtually over. He was a pioneer as he was part of that wave of brilliant black footballers that changed the face of the league in the late 70s and early 80s Cunningham, Regis, Anderson, Moses, Fashanu, Blisset and our Danny Wallace, all of whom experienced crap from the terraces depending on opposition in terms of their race. However, by the 80s this was on the wane and I cannot recall JF or any other player ever getting genuine grief for being gay, notwithstanding the generalised ribbing of Bailey, Gowling and Biley plus the pantomime that was Elton John as Watford Chairman.

[shurlock]

I'm not sure why it'd be an issue for a current PL player to come out. Society has moved on so much, and while there'll always be a few knuckle draggers with something to say, your average / normal fan won't give a monkeys.

 

On topic, Fashanu's treatment was typical of the time, but his suicide an indictment of that time. He was a great player and doing something to remember him is well deserved.

 

What was it like when you came out? I assume you’re gay -maybe you’ve played professional sports too?- since you appear to talk very authoritatively and conclusively about the subject and have presumably dealt with the private emotions and public reactions to your sexuality.

Edited 20 February, 2020 by shurlock

[Turkish]

I'm not sure why it'd be an issue for a current PL player to come out. Society has moved on so much, and while there'll always be a few knuckle draggers with something to say, your average / normal fan won't give a monkeys.

 

On topic, Fashanu's treatment was typical of the time, but his suicide an indictment of that time. He was a great player and doing something to remember him is well deserved.

 

It’s been built up to be a massive issue though. Remember a couple of years back a “who are they?” Type campaign when there was a rumour that a couple of current premier league players were going to come out.

 

Genuinely don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid these days but of course there would be a fawning over their bravery by the media if it where to happen.

 

Like I said above though if people genuinely do want to normalise it then don’t come out in the first place, just carry on with your lives. Maybe that’s what the current gay players are doing and they’re already a step ahead of the “we HAVE to have an openly gay footballer” brigade

[egg]

What was it like when you came out? I assume you’re gay -maybe you’ve played professional sports too?- since you appear to talk very authoritatively and conclusively about the subject and have presumably dealt with the private emotions and public reactions to your sexuality.

 

I've merely said that society has moved on to the extent that I think society, generally speaking, has no issue with sexuality. You obviously think differently - if your treatment of a straight person with an opinion about this topic is typical of society then we haven't moved on, but I suspect you're a one off helmet.

Edited 20 February, 2020 by egg

[egg]

It’s been built up to be a massive issue though. Remember a couple of years back a “who are they?” Type campaign when there was a rumour that a couple of current premier league players were going to come out.

 

Genuinely don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid these days but of course there would be a fawning over their bravery by the media if it where to happen.

 

Like I said above though if people genuinely do want to normalise it then don’t come out in the first place, just carry on with your lives. Maybe that’s what the current gay players are doing and they’re already a step ahead of the “we HAVE to have an openly gay footballer” brigade

 

I get all that and broadly agree. I'm not advocating gay players coming out as such, live and let live, my point is that I'd be staggered if there'd be the negativity that there would have been once upon a time.

[shurlock]

I've merely said that society has moved on to the extent that I think society, generally speaking, has no issue with sexuality. You obviously think differently.

 

I don’t know either way. I’m not the person to ask. But when people who are gay have felt a need to keep quiet and lead a double life, then it’s usually a good idea to listen pal.

Edited 20 February, 2020 by shurlock

[Batman]

Could you imagine the coverage it would get by Jim White on Talksport when the first premier league player comes forward!!

 

NATALIE, THIS IS SENSATIONAL! AMAZING! REMARKABLE! LET ME TELL YOU NATALIE, THAT BEING GAY IS PERFECTLY NORMAL IN THIS ERA. MARVELLOUS! NATALIE, HAVE I EVER TOLD YOU ABOUT MY OWN GAY EXPERIENCES. THIS LEAGUE IS SIMPLY THE BEST LEAGUE IN THE WORLD. UNBELIEVABLE! ANYWAY, OVER TO THE MOOSE FOR HIS THOUGHTS!

Edited 20 February, 2020 by Batman

[Lighthouse]

I don’t know either way. I’m not the person to ask. But when people who’ve personally experienced this stuff have felt a need to keep quiet and lead a double life, then it’s usually a good idea to listen pal.

 

Who has experienced it though? We’ve not had an openly gay player since Fash and that was back in a time when people used to chuck bananas at John Barnes.

 

I think it’s sad an unnecessary that players feel the need to hide it in 2020. The positive reaction would massively outweigh any homophobia if someone did come out.

[hypochondriac]

Who has experienced it though? We’ve not had an openly gay player since Fash and that was back in a time when people used to chuck bananas at John Barnes.

 

I think it’s sad an unnecessary that players feel the need to hide it in 2020. The positive reaction would massively outweigh any homophobia if someone did come out.

Worth noting that we don't actually know the reasons why people aren't more open about it. Maybe they would prefer sexuality to be a private thing, maybe the thought of the silly, fuss the media would make is off putting and some would prefer a quieter life just playing football. If I were a gay professional footballer there's no way I'd want to out myself considering the microscope you would be put under.

[Turkish]

Worth noting that we don't actually know the reasons why people aren't more open about it. Maybe they would prefer sexuality to be a private thing, maybe the thought of the silly, fuss the media would make is off putting and some would prefer a quieter life just playing football. If I were a gay professional footballer there's no way I'd want to out myself considering the microscope you would be put under.

 

I’m really not sure why so many people are desperate to talk about people’s sexuality. WE MUST HAVE A GAY FOOTBALLER.

[Noodles34]

I’m really not sure why so many people are desperate to talk about people’s sexuality. WE MUST HAVE A GAY FOOTBALLER.

 

i think it’s the role model thing as usual. Minority groups (maybe that’s not the right way of putting it, so apologies to those offended) need flag bearers to make them normalised I guess. When, as you say, it’s not a big deal and down to personal choice. You don’t have to declare yourself straight, so why do you have to do otherwise? Because idiots like Peter Tatchell just want to fight about it. If someone wants to declare then fine, but they shouldn’t be forced to or made to feel like they should be setting an example.

however, as I said, If I was a gay footballer, don’t really think I’d want to walk at out The Bridge or London Stadium waving a flag, yeah, most don’t care either way but football fans can be a cruel bunch sometimes, especially if we’re losing. And even so, a few knuckle dragging mongs still can make quite a noise.

[verlaine1979]

Who has experienced it though? We’ve not had an openly gay player since Fash and that was back in a time when people used to chuck bananas at John Barnes.

 

I think it’s sad an unnecessary that players feel the need to hide it in 2020. The positive reaction would massively outweigh any homophobia if someone did come out.

 

Thank god we've completely solved the problem of racism in football in this, the year of our lord 2020.

[Lighthouse]

I think when most people say open they (I) mean not denying it and having a boyfriend. You don’t need a flag waving glittery parade down the Mall, just not denying yourself is all you need.

[Lighthouse]

Thank god we've completely solved the problem of racism in football in this, the year of our lord 2020.

 

You get the 50,000 antiques collectors, dog trainers or train spotters in one place and tell me not one of them is racist.

[hypochondriac]

i think it’s the role model thing as usual. Minority groups (maybe that’s not the right way of putting it, so apologies to those offended) need flag bearers to make them normalised I guess. When, as you say, it’s not a big deal and down to personal choice. You don’t have to declare yourself straight, so why do you have to do otherwise? Because idiots like Peter Tatchell just want to fight about it. If someone wants to declare then fine, but they shouldn’t be forced to or made to feel like they should be setting an example.

however, as I said, If I was a gay footballer, don’t really think I’d want to walk at out The Bridge or London Stadium waving a flag, yeah, most don’t care either way but football fans can be a cruel bunch sometimes, especially if we’re losing. And even so, a few knuckle dragging mongs still can make quite a noise.

 

Oh I'm sure there would be a handful of idiots shouting stuff but that's true of the wider population and in the same way you'd get some thugs shouting racist stuff. Generally these people are identified and banned though so I doubt it would last long. Like. I said though, I imagine some gay footballers judt want to be left alone and the media in particular should respect that.