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whelk

By whelk,
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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Golactico said:

I watched a fair bit of Rafiq's evidence today. If I knew nothing about the case, I'd have assumed he was talking about events in the 70s or maybe the 80s at a push. 

It's been a funny old day for that kind of thing.

The Boris Johnson dad story where he is slapping women's behinds is apparently due to different standards and different culture in old days gone by.....for something that happened in 2003. 2003 FFS. 

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ecuk268

ecuk268

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

It's been a funny old day for that kind of thing.

The Boris Johnson dad story where he is slapping women's behinds is apparently due to different standards and different culture in old days gone by.....for something that happened in 2003. 2003 FFS. 

Also groping a New Statesman lady in 2019.

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Picard

Picard

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Im still struggling to understand what David Lloyd has done wrong by saying in a private chat group that asian players dont go into the clubs bars. 

You are probably going to do a lot more struggling over the next few months!

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Picard said:

You are probably going to do a lot more struggling over the next few months!

Surely that is just an observation though rather than a racist comment. Also once again the question needs to be asked if true why dont they? Is it because they dont want to be around alcohol? If so there are plenty of teetotal people who go into bars, it is possible to go into a bar and not drink alcohol. 

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
On 16/11/2021 at 17:43, whelk said:

Must admit was initially a little cynical about the claims but pretty damning what has been revealed today. Can’t believe others didn’t pipe up to defend the lad

There were obviously some racist comments made but it doesnt mean that all comments made were racist. For example Bumble LLoyds comments were not racist but they're being used as this as part of the great outrage.

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moonraker

moonraker

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

There were obviously some racist comments made but it doesnt mean that all comments made were racist. For example Bumble LLoyds comments were not racist but they're being used as this as part of the great outrage.

Your assuming that you know the intent, he was obviously trying to make a point of some sort.  Whilst such comments may seem innocuous to those who who do not experience racism,  discrimination or insults on a regular basis I believe that it is for those who are impacted by such statements to judge.  The whole "it is only banter" argument is predicated on how those who utter these things see it not the persons on the receiving end.  Unfortunately there is rarely great outrage about these things and that is why they persist.  

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, moonraker said:

Your assuming that you know the intent, he was obviously trying to make a point of some sort.  Whilst such comments may seem innocuous to those who who do not experience racism,  discrimination or insults on a regular basis I believe that it is for those who are impacted by such statements to judge.  The whole "it is only banter" argument is predicated on how those who utter these things see it not the persons on the receiving end.  Unfortunately there is rarely great outrage about these things and that is why they persist.  

I guess that depends on what prism you look at the world through. You can assume that everyone is a nasty, horrible racist and every comment was made to hurt and offend, or can assume that actually most people aren't racist and what was said was not meant to be offensive. If Asian players dont go into the players bar is that a fact or a racist comment, for example?

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saintsdan

saintsdan

Posted
Posted
Just now, Turkish said:

I guess that depends on what prism you look at the world through. You can assume that everyone is a nasty, horrible racist and every comment was made to hurt and offend, or can assume that actually most people aren't racist and what was said was not meant to be offensive. If Asian players dont go into the players bar is that a fact or a racist comment, for example?

I think the point is that the comment was made in response to serious allegations of racism and a racist culture within the Yorkshire dressing room.  Suggesting that Asian players not going into the clubhouse bar is justification for them being treated differently outside of the bar and being abused and made to feel unwelcome in the dressing room is not acceptable.

You are also ignoring his second comment about Asian players paying their subs which, as a generalisation about all Asian players, is by definition a racist comment.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, saintsdan said:

I think the point is that the comment was made in response to serious allegations of racism and a racist culture within the Yorkshire dressing room.  Suggesting that Asian players not going into the clubhouse bar is justification for them being treated differently outside of the bar and being abused and made to feel unwelcome in the dressing room is not acceptable.

You are also ignoring his second comment about Asian players paying their subs which, as a generalisation about all Asian players, is by definition a racist comment.

It's a valid point though isn't it. If they're not socialising with the other players then it makes it harder to fit in. That goes for anyone playing for any club. Been involved in plenty of sports teams myself where players that dont socialise with the others are not part of the boys club, it doesn't mean no one rates them or no ones likes them, its simply they're not part of the social group, that's perfectly natural and nothing to do with race. 

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saintsdan

saintsdan

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It's a valid point though isn't it. If they're not socialising with the other players then it makes it harder to fit in. That goes for anyone playing for any club. Been involved in plenty of sports teams myself where players that dont socialise with the others are not part of the boys club, it doesn't mean no one rates them or no ones likes them, its simply they're not part of the social group, that's perfectly natural and nothing to do with race. 

Yes and no.  I agree that not going to the bar will exclude them from much of the socialising and 'boys club' environment but I suspect (at risk of generalising myself) that wouldn't bother them.  It's when you get outside of that environment to the training ground and dressing room (remembering that this is a professional working environment not the local pub team) that the culture needs to be more inclusive.  As I said, using the social group argument as justification for being abusive and making them feel unwelcome in their workplace is not right.

Bumble's comments in isolation may well be valid (and in many cases true) but in the context of the accusations being made by an individual he didn't know and as an apparent excuse or justification for the negative treatment of Asian players they were at best inadvisable and probably inappropriate.    

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moonraker

moonraker

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I guess that depends on what prism you look at the world through. You can assume that everyone is a nasty, horrible racist and every comment was made to hurt and offend, or can assume that actually most people aren't racist and what was said was not meant to be offensive. If Asian players dont go into the players bar is that a fact or a racist comment, for example?

As a white Anglo Saxon you might assume my prism is wholly shaped by this.  I try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to look at the world through others prisms in order to get at least a small understanding of what they experience and to help me think how I might feel in their position.  As for assuming everyone is a nasty, horrible racist nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the majority of people are decent and caring and that they aspire to do right by their fellow humans.  It is only by listening to those who have experienced racist and discriminatory language and abuse that one can judge what is and isn’t racist.  If ones default is to immediately take a defensive position when “potential” racism or discrimination is exposed to my mind is to be in denial, either because we do not want to believe their are a small minority of nasty horrible racists, or most worrying that the defenders are part of that minority.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, moonraker said:

As a white Anglo Saxon you might assume my prism is wholly shaped by this.  I try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to look at the world through others prisms in order to get at least a small understanding of what they experience and to help me think how I might feel in their position.  As for assuming everyone is a nasty, horrible racist nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the majority of people are decent and caring and that they aspire to do right by their fellow humans.  It is only by listening to those who have experienced racist and discriminatory language and abuse that one can judge what is and isn’t racist.  If ones default is to immediately take a defensive position when “potential” racism or discrimination is exposed to my mind is to be in denial, either because we do not want to believe their are a small minority of nasty horrible racists, or most worrying that the defenders are part of that minority.

I dont think anyone has ever denied that there are a minority of racist people out there. We also agree that most people are good and mean well. Which validates my point that when we look into these sort of allegations are we looking to find racism, hoping to be outraged at any comment which even alludes to it, or are we taking a more balanced view that for sure some comments were racist and some people might be, but that doesn't mean that they all were. I'll ask again, if asian players dont go into a bar and therefore dont become mates with some of the other players, is that a racist comment or an observation? Maybe rather than avoiding the bar they should make the effort to integrate socially with the other players?

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moonraker

moonraker

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont think anyone has ever denied that there are a minority of racist people out there. We also agree that most people are good and mean well. Which validates my point that when we look into these sort of allegations are we looking to find racism, hoping to be outraged at any comment which even alludes to it, or are we taking a more balanced view that for sure some comments were racist and some people might be, but that doesn't mean that they all were. I'll ask again, if asian players dont go into a bar and therefore dont become mates with some of the other players, is that a racist comment or an observation? Maybe rather than avoiding the bar they should make the effort to integrate socially with the other players?

There are many ways to integrate and socialise that don’t involve a bar.  It is very simplistic to believe that if you don’t use the bar you are not making an effort.  I fully recognise that for many of us meeting in a bar is a great way to get to know colleagues, team mates etc. it is not however a universal law.   Why use the term asian players, i have known plenty of non Asians who choose not to socialise in bars, it’s a personal choice and one that should be respected not used to justify a criticism.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, moonraker said:

There are many ways to integrate and socialise that don’t involve a bar.  It is very simplistic to believe that if you don’t use the bar you are not making an effort.  I fully recognise that for many of us meeting in a bar is a great way to get to know colleagues, team mates etc. it is not however a universal law.   Why use the term asian players, i have known plenty of non Asians who choose not to socialise in bars, it’s a personal choice and one that should be respected not used to justify a criticism.

Yes there is, but if that's the way Yorkshire cricket club socialise then surely that means that the onus should be on the newer players to adapt to that rather than everyone adapting to them. If a large group of 20 work colleagues were going out for a dinner and one of them was a vegetarian it would be unreasonable for the vegitarian to refuse to go to anywhere selling meat wouldn't it, they'd simply order a non meat meal. As the discussion here was race then if none of the asian players go into the bar then surely the obvious thing to say was that they dont, that's not racist it's stating a fact. 

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moonraker

moonraker

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yes there is, but if that's the way Yorkshire cricket club socialise then surely that means that the onus should be on the newer players to adapt to that rather than everyone adapting to them. If a large group of 20 work colleagues were going out for a dinner and one of them was a vegetarian it would be unreasonable for the vegitarian to refuse to go to anywhere selling meat wouldn't it, they'd simply order a non meat meal. As the discussion here was race then if none of the asian players go into the bar then surely the obvious thing to say was that they dont, that's not racist it's stating a fact. 

Adapting, that’s an interesting justification for expecting someone to do something they would rather not do.  Your vegetarian analogy is weak, vegetarianism is not generally a deeply rooted in cultural or religious tradition.  I have known vegans not attend meals with colleagues because there was meet on the menu, it’s rare but I respect their choice.  Based on your reasoning I suppose you believe non Muslims living and working in a Muslim society should attend the mosque with their colleagues as mosques are an important part of how they socialise.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, moonraker said:

Adapting, that’s an interesting justification for expecting someone to do something they would rather not do.  Your vegetarian analogy is weak, vegetarianism is not generally a deeply rooted in cultural or religious tradition.  I have known vegans not attend meals with colleagues because there was meet on the menu, it’s rare but I respect their choice.  Based on your reasoning I suppose you believe non Muslims living and working in a Muslim society should attend the mosque with their colleagues as mosques are an important part of how they socialise.

When you start at a new company dont you adapt then? 

Really not sure what you're imply by your last comment, it's a bit strange as no one is accusing mosques of treating white people who go to them as being racist. 

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whelk

whelk

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Looks like our man at the centre of all this isn’t squeaky clean himself. Making anti semitic comments in the past on Twitter  

What did he tweet? Who amongst us is without sin? Apart from all the woke fuckers of course

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

So he's been a cunt in the past, he's owned it and says he's grown as a person. It doesn't change what he's been through. Other's can own their behaviour and show that they too have grown. 

Interesting that someone who has been racist is now claiming to be the victim of racism though isn’t it. I guess you view the world through your own prism. 

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

So he's been a cunt in the past, he's owned it and says he's grown as a person. It doesn't change what he's been through. Other's can own their behaviour and show that they too have grown. 

He "Owned it" after he was found out. Rather different to grassing himself up, or better still, not being racist to begin with. His behaviour doesn't make his alleged experience any less unpleasant, but it's very relevant to his credibility. 

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted

Alex Hales:

"The theme was musicians and Tupac is, was and always will be my favourite musician, so I went as him.

"I obviously realise that this is incredibly disrespectful and I want to apologise for all the offence this has no doubt caused" 

I'm guessing that if he'd stayed white but still tried to depict Tupac, he'd have been mullered for depicting Tupac as a white man. 

Is the message that white people can no longer impersonate black people? Something very different to a generic "black face" I would say.

Is depicting someone you respect, regardless of colour, not in fact a sign of respect? 

Is it OK for black people to impersonate white people? 

Is our "one human race" not in fact becoming a "black" or "white" world? 

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whelk

whelk

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Posted

I think everyone in the public eye should hand over every message they ever sent and also their school reports so hopefully we can cleanse sport and other walks of life of these vile swine and just be left with the perfect ones. 

is laughing at Romesh impersonating his mum acceptable?

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Dman

Dman

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

So he's been a cunt in the past, he's owned it and says he's grown as a person. It doesn't change what he's been through. Other's can own their behaviour and show that they too have grown. 

The thing is, it kinda does. 
 

Ballance’s main argument was that Rafiq himself had used racist words / terminology, so he (Balance) saw it as ‘Banta’ between friends. 

This backs up Balance’s argument. 

There’s also a picture doing the rounds of Rafiq with a big bottle of Vodka down his throat. Yet he mad complaints about being ‘forced’ to drink against his faith. More bullshit. 
 

Long and short is that Rafiq saw the opportunity for a pay out/book deal/Pundit opportunities. He was absolutely lapping the media up. 
 

The bloke is a grade A wanker. That’s probably why he was ‘picked’ on, not because of his skin colour. 

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AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dman said:

The thing is, it kinda does. 
 

Ballance’s main argument was that Rafiq himself had used racist words / terminology, so he (Balance) saw it as ‘Banta’ between friends. 

This backs up Balance’s argument. 

There’s also a picture doing the rounds of Rafiq with a big bottle of Vodka down his throat. Yet he mad complaints about being ‘forced’ to drink against his faith. More bullshit. 
 

Long and short is that Rafiq saw the opportunity for a pay out/book deal/Pundit opportunities. He was absolutely lapping the media up. 
 

The bloke is a grade A wanker. That’s probably why he was ‘picked’ on, not because of his skin colour. 

 

 

Edited by AlexLaw76
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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, egg said:

Alex Hales:

"The theme was musicians and Tupac is, was and always will be my favourite musician, so I went as him.

"I obviously realise that this is incredibly disrespectful and I want to apologise for all the offence this has no doubt caused" 

I'm guessing that if he'd stayed white but still tried to depict Tupac, he'd have been mullered for depicting Tupac as a white man. 

Is the message that white people can no longer impersonate black people? Something very different to a generic "black face" I would say.

Is depicting someone you respect, regardless of colour, not in fact a sign of respect? 

Is it OK for black people to impersonate white people? 

Is our "one human race" not in fact becoming a "black" or "white" world? 

And it was in 2009. This is insane. 

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