What Is Happening To Our Country?

[Lighthouse]

20 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Two people working, not having foreign holidays, just one car ten years old, not going out, itquite possible. I can't ever remember the day when a single person on a low salary could afford to buy their own house.

We saved up for over five years and put down a deposit of £1500 on a house costing £6400 in 1971. But we didn't spend any money on what we would see as luxuries. 

So in other words basically not having a life? We think of foreign holidays as a luxury but in todays world it’s almost a necessity. Humans didn’t evolve to spend fifty hours a week staring at spreadsheets and Teams meetings in offices, sitting in traffic, stressing about mounting financial pressures, relationships etc. If you don’t take a break a couple of times a year, you’ll go mad.

 

Back to the money, that’s less than £17,000 for a deposit on a home costing less than £75,000, adjusted for inflation in today’s money. Hardly surprising you had it sorted in five years.

[CB Fry]

40 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Two people working, not having foreign holidays, just one car ten years old, not going out, itquite possible. I can't ever remember the day when a single person on a low salary could afford to buy their own house.

We saved up for over five years and put down a deposit of £1500 on a house costing £6400 in 1971. But we didn't spend any money on what we would see as luxuries. 

We get it. You don't have the faintest idea about the realities of life for the generation aged 20-40.

You had it easy because you were one of the lucky generation and, as usual, believe that it was all down to your own hard work and saving.

It was luck. You were lucky.

Edited 10 November, 2022 by CB Fry

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

So in other words basically not having a life? We think of foreign holidays as a luxury but in todays world it’s almost a necessity. Humans didn’t evolve to spend fifty hours a week staring at spreadsheets and Teams meetings in offices, sitting in traffic, stressing about mounting financial pressures, relationships etc. If you don’t take a break a couple of times a year, you’ll go mad.

 

Back to the money, that’s less than £17,000 for a deposit on a home costing less than £75,000, adjusted for inflation in today’s money. Hardly surprising you had it sorted in five years.

Holidays are all but a necessity. Foreign ones aren't. Outside of London, £300-350k buys something decent. 20% is £60-70k. With sacrifices, a working professional couple can save that in a sensible time. Drive a shit car, have cheap holidays, be sensible, it can be done. Leasing a nice motor each, insisting on getting on a plane for every holiday, expensive nights out, it won't happen. It ain't as easy as Whitey makes out, but it's possible.  

[CB Fry]

24 minutes ago, egg said:

Holidays are all but a necessity. Foreign ones aren't. Outside of London, £300-350k buys something decent. 20% is £60-70k. With sacrifices, a working professional couple can save that in a sensible time. Drive a shit car, have cheap holidays, be sensible, it can be done. Leasing a nice motor each, insisting on getting on a plane for every holiday, expensive nights out, it won't happen. It ain't as easy as Whitey makes out, but it's possible.  

Don't go to expensive Spain you wasters. Have one of them really cheap holidays in, er, Cornwall.

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

Don't go to expensive Spain you wasters. Have one of them really cheap holidays in, er, Cornwall.

I don't wanna holiday in the sun. 

I like a cheap holiday in other people's misery.

 

[Lighthouse]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

Holidays are all but a necessity. Foreign ones aren't. Outside of London, £300-350k buys something decent. 20% is £60-70k. With sacrifices, a working professional couple can save that in a sensible time. Drive a shit car, have cheap holidays, be sensible, it can be done. Leasing a nice motor each, insisting on getting on a plane for every holiday, expensive nights out, it won't happen. It ain't as easy as Whitey makes out, but it's possible.  

You won’t get a week in Centre Parcs for much less than £1,000. You can find cheaper places but not by much in the spring/summer months and all this is assuming a week of walking in the Peak District is the preferred holiday for a 22 year old.

It still doesn’t change the fact that you’re basically telling qualified professionals to live a sh*t life throughout their twenties, to then get to your thirties and be lumbered with a massive mortgage on a steep interest rate you’ll be paying off until you retire.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

You won’t get a week in Centre Parcs for much less than £1,000. You can find cheaper places but not by much in the spring/summer months and all this is assuming a week of walking in the Peak District is the preferred holiday for a 22 year old.

It still doesn’t change the fact that you’re basically telling qualified professionals to live a sh*t life throughout their twenties, to then get to your thirties and be lumbered with a massive mortgage on a steep interest rate you’ll be paying off until you retire.

Entitlement gets on my tits. Life's about choices. Nice holidays, nice motor, no house, or a few compromises, own a house. If the big mortgage is too much, don't get one and rent instead. 

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Entitlement gets on my tits. Life's about choices. Nice holidays, nice motor, no house, or a few compromises, own a house. If the big mortgage is too much, don't get one and rent instead. 

Bullshit.

Life in many ways is about happy accidents and luck. Born in the right era you get a lot of luck and you can pretend your good fortune is down to "choices" rather than serendipity, the accident of your birth or the economic circumstances when you were 25.

25 year olds these days didn't chose any of the macro factors impacting their life. 

Edited 10 November, 2022 by CB Fry

[egg]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

Bullshit.

Life in many ways is about happy accidents and life. Born in the right era you get a lot of luck and you can pretend your good fortune is down to "choices" rather than serendipity, the accident of your birth or the economic circumstances when you were 25.

25 year olds these days didn't chose any of the macro factors impacting their life. 

To quote Turkish on another thread, you've gotta control the controllables. People in their twenties ain't gonna get far moaning about how tough it is now compared to when their folks were young. They have to face reality and make sacrifices and choices. That's not bullshit, just an uncomfortable reality.

I lost 30% on my first house in the 90's, had hideous negative equity and only got out of the shit through exactly the choices and sacrifices I've mentioned. 

[whelk]

You wankers should be grateful you don’t live in Somalia. My kids never tire of me giving them that little bit wisdom to cheer them up

[Turkish]

[Turkish]

[Lighthouse]

42 minutes ago, egg said:

Entitlement gets on my tits. Life's about choices. Nice holidays, nice motor, no house, or a few compromises, own a house. If the big mortgage is too much, don't get one and rent instead. 

Entitlement…

Let’s say you’re renting one room in a HMO with bills included. The market rate obviously varies depending on location and the property, let’s assume £600-800pcm.

Food, personally I tend to spend around £10 per day and that’s avoiding expensive coffees, junk food etc. so £300pcm

Fuel, again it depends on your commute but let’s say £50pw so £200pcm

Car insurance, tax, service, MOT, let’s say for a modest car in an average year £1200 for easy maths - £100pcm

Lets say you have a reasonable gym membership and go to one football game - £100pcm

Two modest holidays a year for £600 each - £100pcm

Lets allow another £100pcm for miscellaneous stuff you just need sometimes. New clothes, printer ink, opticians or whatever else

Total - £1,700

 

So, IF you leave uni at 21, find a job immediately, which pays a £35k salary from day one, are never made redundant for any period, live in a single room in a house share with a bunch of strangers from spareroom.com or wherever, your salary rises in accordance with inflation every year, you have a partner who is also a qualified professional earning a decent wage BUT you don’t spend any money going on dates at all AND you stay together in a committed relationship the whole time and both intend to buy a house together, you contribute NOTHING to your personal pension allowance, have no children or even pets, have parents who can buy you a decent second hand car, which will last you over ten years and completely ignoring the repayments on your massive student loan which could be over a year’s salary in itself…. If you can do all of that then yes, you might be able to put aside £500pcm from your take home pay each month to put into a deposit.

 

That doesn’t sound like entitlement to me, it just sounds like a nightmare.

[Plastic]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I think the figure is high but it's two new cars and a couple of exotic holidays. 

Don't be ridiculous, that barely covers one new car. And even then you'd still need to scrimp on the options. 

Also 100k deposit would still require a 95% mortgage on any house worth buying, so why bother?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

You wankers should be grateful you don’t live in Somalia. My kids never tire of me giving them that little bit wisdom to cheer them up

As I read that, I thought it was going to go...

You wankers should be grateful you don't live in Somalia. My kids never...  forgave me for making them live there. 🙂

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Bullshit.

Life in many ways is about happy accidents and luck. Born in the right era you get a lot of luck and you can pretend your good fortune is down to "choices" rather than serendipity, the accident of your birth or the economic circumstances when you were 25.

25 year olds these days didn't chose any of the macro factors impacting their life. 

Not necessarily.

My daughter turned 18 this week and her child trust fund (that I've paid into for 18 years) 'matured'.  She's now got around £10.5k.  Fortunately, the conversation I was dreading went well and she decided straight away to save the money (I will continue to contribute every month).  She's planning to study nursing at Cardiff where pretty much everything (course fees, accomodation, uniforms etc) will be paid for her and will work at weekends to earn spending money.  She will then have to work in Wales for 2 years once qualified but at the end of her course will have around £14k for a deposit.

A two bed (fairly new) flat in a reasonable area in Cardiff with an easy commute to the hospital currently costs around £110k, in 3.5 years expect that to be around £120k, so she can easily afford a 10% deposit.

I'm not convinced that's a happy accident or luck, more 'good choices'.

[CB Fry]

46 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not necessarily.

My daughter turned 18 this week and her child trust fund (that I've paid into for 18 years) 'matured'.  She's now got around £10.5k.  Fortunately, the conversation I was dreading went well and she decided straight away to save the money (I will continue to contribute every month).  She's planning to study nursing at Cardiff where pretty much everything (course fees, accomodation, uniforms etc) will be paid for her and will work at weekends to earn spending money.  She will then have to work in Wales for 2 years once qualified but at the end of her course will have around £14k for a deposit.

A two bed (fairly new) flat in a reasonable area in Cardiff with an easy commute to the hospital currently costs around £110k, in 3.5 years expect that to be around £120k, so she can easily afford a 10% deposit.

I'm not convinced that's a happy accident or luck, more 'good choices'.

I'm not sure your daughter made a choice just after birth to have a child trust fund so she had £10k at 18.

Nor did she make a choice to be be born during the New Labour administration the introduced and popularised the trust fund scheme, subsequently wound up by the 2010 coalition.

And you're going to continue to pay in on top anyway. Because she chose to be born to you.

Yes I agree your daughter has made some absolutely impeccable choices there 👌 

Edited 11 November, 2022 by CB Fry

[CB Fry]

10 hours ago, egg said:

To quote Turkish on another thread, you've gotta control the controllables. People in their twenties ain't gonna get far moaning about how tough it is now compared to when their folks were young. They have to face reality and make sacrifices and choices. That's not bullshit, just an uncomfortable reality.

I lost 30% on my first house in the 90's, had hideous negative equity and only got out of the shit through exactly the choices and sacrifices I've mentioned. 

They are making choices, they've got no fucking choice but to.

That generation growing up post 2008 crash have it far tougher than previous generations like you and me who had things easier and were incredibly lucky generation.

The main issue is the lucky generations don't consider themselves lucky and congratulate themselves for their smart choices they made when the wind was in their favour for them during the most critical times.

[AlexLaw76]

Still unsure why the £100,000 deposit was even mentioned......are £1m-2m houses the norm these days?

[egg]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

They are making choices, they've got no fucking choice but to.

That generation growing up post 2008 crash have it far tougher than previous generations like you and me who had things easier and were incredibly lucky generation.

The main issue is the lucky generations don't consider themselves lucky and congratulate themselves for their smart choices they made when the wind was in their favour for them during the most critical times.

I don't see how it helps to harp back to how previous generations had it. Your resentment of it makes no difference to my kids abilities to buy property. Yep, tougher now, but your position is about as futile as SoG's original post. 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

They are making choices, they've got no fucking choice but to.

That generation growing up post 2008 crash have it far tougher than previous generations like you and me who had things easier and were incredibly lucky generation.

The main issue is the lucky generations don't consider themselves lucky and congratulate themselves for their smart choices they made when the wind was in their favour for them during the most critical times.

is it really hard obtaining £12-15k to get their first house?

[egg]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Still unsure why the £100,000 deposit was even mentioned......are £1m-2m houses the norm these days?

Yep. That's part of my point on entitlement. Some of the comments assume a right or a need to buy, and £100k either suggests a massive deposit so small mortgage, or a bigger starter home than is needed. Too many people confuse desire with need. 

[CB Fry]

38 minutes ago, egg said:

I don't see how it helps to harp back to how previous generations had it. Your resentment of it makes no difference to my kids abilities to buy property. Yep, tougher now, but your position is about as futile as SoG's original post. 

Yes resentment doesn't help....

35 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. That's part of my point on entitlement. Some of the comments assume a right or a need to buy, and £100k either suggests a massive deposit so small mortgage, or a bigger starter home than is needed. Too many people confuse desire with need. 

....except for the people you want to resent.

Crystal clear 👍

[Toadhall Saint]

11 hours ago, egg said:

To quote Turkish on another thread, you've gotta control the controllables. People in their twenties ain't gonna get far moaning about how tough it is now compared to when their folks were young. They have to face reality and make sacrifices and choices. That's not bullshit, just an uncomfortable reality.

I lost 30% on my first house in the 90's, had hideous negative equity and only got out of the shit through exactly the choices and sacrifices I've mentioned. 

Can’t be arsed to get involved in the overall argument but I was exactly the same as your 2nd paragraph- interest rates at about 14% from memory.

[egg]

45 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Yes resentment doesn't help....

....except for the people you want to resent.

Crystal clear 👍

No resentments here CB. I can't change that it was easier for my folks to buy than it was for me, and that it was easier for me than it will be for my kids. I accept the reality of that, and can't see a single benefit of whining about it, or acknowledging how much easier I had it. We'll have to agree to differ. 

[egg]

13 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Can’t be arsed to get involved in the overall argument but I was exactly the same as your 2nd paragraph- interest rates at about 14% from memory.

Yep. I remember the newsflash. First time I cried as an adult. Our mortgage payments became about 2/3 of our combined net incomes. Scary times. 

[whelk]

House prices are a fucking joke but somehow society has seem to be fooled into thinking something rising so disproportionately in price is good news.    For society as a whole it is not but for those on the ladder it is great 
 

Attitudes now are ridiculous- how dare interest rates mean my risky borrow doesn’t turn out to be the right decision? Furthermore people thinking the fuckinggovt should bail them out when cannot meet repayments! Yeah I know it is shit for them but that was a decision they took and you got to be able to handle consequences. 
 

[whelk]

1996 a £50k house in outer south east is now £281k -462% rise

1996 £50k with CPI applied is now £90k

 

seem bloody low but that was from BofE site

[Plastic]

Bought my first flat in 2001 in Winchester, straight out of uni. I was earning 11k a year with no deposit. At this point, self-certified mortgages were easily obtainable (@8%).
Didn’t have a car or foreign holiday for years, walked to work in town. But I paid my mortgage religiously. 
Self-certificated mortgages were a fantastic way to achieve property ownership if you were financially disciplined. Unfortunately, too many people exploited it to live beyond their means, as we saw in 2008. Don’t believe these exist anymore. 

Edited 11 November, 2022 by Plastic

[sadoldgit]

19 hours ago, egg said:

There's your answer on why it's happening. Anyways, anyone should surely be opposed to a cruel sport that encourages gambling? Repurposing that land for something wholesome like housing seems like a good thing.

Why “repurpose” farmland when you could use it for its natural purpose, providing food? There are enough brownfield sites to provide 70% of our housing needs. There are two new developments going up near us. The prices start at over £430k. How is that affordable housing? No one wants them in the village they are being built in. The local school is full. The local doctor’s surgery is swamped. The local hospital can’t cope. The local roads cannot deal with the extra traffic. What happened to the idea of levelling up? To me that doesn’t mean concreting over the SE of England. There seems to be little thought out into where these developments go. They are just hoovering up the farmland, building where they like to meet government targets and leaving details like the effects of hundreds more people suddenly appearing in villages to work themselves out later.

17 hours ago, The Left Back said:

My problem with what you are doing on this thread @sadoldgitis taking two interesting but specific topics (protest policing and housing), welding them together and then using them to paint a very bleak, and in my view inaccurate, picture of our country.  You've got a meta view, that I agree with, that the tories are fucking things up and have been for 12 years, but it's sort have been done across multiple threads constantly.  So the general vibe you are sending is pretty depressing.

There are plenty of positive stories around, you need to want to find them and then look hard. 

Yes there are some positive stories around, but we cannot ignore the myriad of issues which are currently effecting us and our children. I have taken a few examples of things that no longer work, but if I had the time and space there would be a lot more. I was born 9 years after the end of WW2. As I keep boring my kids with, there was still sugar rationing here in 1954. I’ve lived through good times, average times and bad times, this is currently a bad time and it is not going to change by looking at pictures of puppies.

it is easy to blame the Tories and Brexit for much of the malaise, but the problems go deeper than that. What allowed this to happen in the first place? When the effects of Covid kicked in there was a great deal of talk about changing the way we live our lives. That has been quickly kicked to the curb by events and most people are just now trying to get through the week. 
 

Nothing has changed. We still need to examine the way we live and the systems we use to live our lives. One of the reasons that government has failed the population so spectacularly is the huge majority they have. Throw in some corrupt, incompetent politicians and you have the recipe for a perfect storm. No accountability. No shame. No consideration for anybody but themselves and nothing we can do about it until the next election in 2 years time.

The police chief from Herts was taking about the arrest of the LBC journalist on the radio yesterday. He actually suggested that it would be better if the media didn’t report these protests!! Where have we heard that before?

We have water companies pouring thousand of gallons of untreated sewage into the rivers and seas because the fines are cheaper than spending money on upgrading their operating systems.

Where ever you look things are unfit for purpose; transport, education, healthcare, governance of local authorities etc.

Yes, my point is that the country has been badly run for some time and the last wheel had finally fallen off. What do we do about it? We can start by admitting it and then have those difficult conversations about how we go about deciding what the solutions are.

As Orwell said, “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” We need an electoral system that relects the amount of votes cast throughout the country. We need proper accountability so that any ruling party cannot get away with breaking rules and policing itself. We need greater devolutuon so that more decision making happens around the country and not just in London. We need a grown up conversation about the effects of Brexit and what we are going to do to deal with them but we need to start by agreeing that the country is broken and in urgent need of fixing.

Yes, it is depressing, more so because it is reality and not some cooked up conspiracy theory. Anyone with children should be very concerned about the state of this country (and the world) right now. We need change, and not just a change of government.
 

 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

is it really hard obtaining £12-15k to get their first house?

A four year mortgage on an average salary of £38,000 (which most twenty-somethings will be earning less than), plus a £15k deposit gives you £167k. For comparison I sold a one bedroom flat in Crawley about five years ago for £190,000 and prices have gone up since then.

The £100k was a direct comparison between the average salary and average house price, assuming a four times salary mortgage.

[egg]

11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

A four year mortgage on an average salary of £38,000 (which most twenty-somethings will be earning less than), plus a £15k deposit gives you £167k. For comparison I sold a one bedroom flat in Crawley about five years ago for £190,000 and prices have gone up since then.

The £100k was a direct comparison between the average salary and average house price, assuming a four times salary mortgage.

First time buyers would be deluded if they expected to buy the average house. If they're willing to start low they have more chance. We're back to choice and expectation. 

[AlexLaw76]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

First time buyers would be deluded if they expected to buy the average house. If they're willing to start low they have more chance. We're back to choice and expectation. 

My first purchase was a 1 bed flat (with a 5% deposit) Was pretty crap looking back now…

BUT…..I owned it, despite the interest rates being higher than today even!

I would have been laughed at if I entertained buying 2-3 bed semi from the off

[The Left Back]

21 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Yes there are some positive stories around, but we cannot ignore the myriad of issues which are currently effecting us and our children. I have taken a few examples of things that no longer work, but if I had the time and space there would be a lot more. I was born 9 years after the end of WW2. As I keep boring my kids with, there was still sugar rationing here in 1954. I’ve lived through good times, average times and bad times, this is currently a bad time and it is not going to change by looking at pictures of puppies.

...

What do we do about it? We can start by admitting it and then have those difficult conversations about how we go about deciding what the solutions are.

...

We need a grown up conversation about the effects of Brexit and what we are going to do to deal with them but we need to start by agreeing that the country is broken and in urgent need of fixing.

Yes, it is depressing, more so because it is reality and not some cooked up conspiracy theory.
 

 

Picking up on the highlighted parts of your post

You misunderstand me completely if you think I am suggesting looking at puppies.

As to what we do about it, I'm up for a conversation about action.  But coming to a football forum repeatedly with the same message would not be part of my action plan.  In fact you could argue that your action is having a paradoxical effect.

This need you have to admit the country is broken - it's just such binary language and doesn't help.  The problems you raise you say rightly are bigger than just this current government.  They are also bigger than this country.  The world system we are part of is finally waking up to the consequences of 200 years of industrialisation.  I come across people working really hard in service of a sustainable future for all of us.  Those people are not well served by being told their country is broken.  You might think it helps and they need to admit it but I don't agree.  They are acting out of hope and wholehearted commitment, not fear and resignation.

It's clear it is depressing to you, and I have compassion for that.  It is your reality.  So please show yourself some compassion and try and find a way to get 'above the line'.  I find Viktor Frankl helps.  “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.”

I've got no time for those that troll and pick on you.  At the same time they are not the problem and their refusal to agree with your point of view makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, CB Fry said:

I'm not sure your daughter made a choice just after birth to have a child trust fund so she had £10k at 18.

Nor did she make a choice to be be born during the New Labour administration the introduced and popularised the trust fund scheme, subsequently wound up by the 2010 coalition.

And you're going to continue to pay in on top anyway. Because she chose to be born to you.

Yes I agree your daughter has made some absolutely impeccable choices there 👌 

Some of the choices were mine, some will be hers.

The point is they were choices and not luck.

Edited 11 November, 2022 by Weston Super Saint

[Turkish]

 

50 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Why “repurpose” farmland when you could use it for its natural purpose, providing food? There are enough brownfield sites to provide 70% of our housing needs. There are two new developments going up near us. The prices start at over £430k. How is that affordable housing? No one wants them in the village they are being built in. The local school is full. The local doctor’s surgery is swamped. The local hospital can’t cope. The local roads cannot deal with the extra traffic. What happened to the idea of levelling up? To me that doesn’t mean concreting over the SE of England. There seems to be little thought out into where these developments go. They are just hoovering up the farmland, building where they like to meet government targets and leaving details like the effects of hundreds more people suddenly appearing in villages to work themselves out later.

Yes there are some positive stories around, but we cannot ignore the myriad of issues which are currently effecting us and our children. I have taken a few examples of things that no longer work, but if I had the time and space there would be a lot more. I was born 9 years after the end of WW2. As I keep boring my kids with, there was still sugar rationing here in 1954. I’ve lived through good times, average times and bad times, this is currently a bad time and it is not going to change posting about it over and over again on Southampton internet forums

it is easy to blame the Tories and Brexit for much of the malaise, but the problems go deeper than that. What allowed this to happen in the first place? When the effects of Covid kicked in there was a great deal of talk about changing the way we live our lives. That has been quickly kicked to the curb by events and most people are just now trying to get through the week. 
 

Nothing has changed. We still need to examine the way we live and the systems we use to live our lives. One of the reasons that government has failed the population so spectacularly is the huge majority they have. Throw in some corrupt, incompetent politicians and you have the recipe for a perfect storm. No accountability. No shame. No consideration for anybody but themselves and nothing we can do about it until the next election in 2 years time.

The police chief from Herts was taking about the arrest of the LBC journalist on the radio yesterday. He actually suggested that it would be better if the media didn’t report these protests!! Where have we heard that before?

We have water companies pouring thousand of gallons of untreated sewage into the rivers and seas because the fines are cheaper than spending money on upgrading their operating systems.

Where ever you look things are unfit for purpose; transport, education, healthcare, governance of local authorities etc.

Yes, my point is that the country has been badly run for some time and the last wheel had finally fallen off. What do we do about it? We can start by admitting it and then have those difficult conversations about how we go about deciding what the solutions are.

As Orwell said, “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” We need an electoral system that relects the amount of votes cast throughout the country. We need proper accountability so that any ruling party cannot get away with breaking rules and policing itself. We need greater devolutuon so that more decision making happens around the country and not just in London. We need a grown up conversation about the effects of Brexit and what we are going to do to deal with them but we need to start by agreeing that the country is broken and in urgent need of fixing.

Yes, it is depressing, more so because it is reality and not some cooked up conspiracy theory. Anyone with children should be very concerned about the state of this country (and the world) right now. We need change, and not just a change of government.
 

 

fixed it for you

Edited 11 November, 2022 by Turkish

[Turkish]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

My first purchase was a 1 bed flat (with a 5% deposit) Was pretty crap looking back now…

BUT…..I owned it, despite the interest rates being higher than today even!

I would have been laughed at if I entertained buying 2-3 bed semi from the off

That's how it works though, right? Start off small, then as you have more equity and wage increases upgrade. There is something in the sense of entitlement some people have that they should have the nice house, car, holidays and lifestyle straight away, they deserve to have it all and social media has to take a lot of the blame for that with people in their teens and twenties only seeing their peers lives highlights reel, thinking everyone else has all that but them. It's created a culture of people constantly comparing their lives to everyone elses often with the view that theirs is inferior because all they see are the best bits of everyone elses. 

[Lighthouse]

52 minutes ago, egg said:

First time buyers would be deluded if they expected to buy the average house. If they're willing to start low they have more chance. We're back to choice and expectation. 

The whole point of picking the averages was to reflect the imbalance of wages vs. house prices as a whole. Obviously a first time buyer is going to be at the bottom of the ladder but that will likely go for their wages too. If you’re earning £25,000 you have no chance of saving for a deposit and if you could a bank would only lend you enough to buy a flat in a retirement complex.

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Some of the choices were mine, some will be hers.

The point is they were choices and not luck.

The point people don't want to acknowledge the role luck plays.

Pretty sure it wasn't you that introduced the child trust fund legislation 20 odd years ago.

Lucky you, lucky her.

[tdmickey3]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

 

fixed it for you

You really are obsessed with him, aren't you? 👏

cue the ridiculous MLG response  🤫 

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

You really are obsessed with him, aren't you? 👏

cue the ridiculous MLG response  🤫 

Is he going to solve all those problems by relentlessly moaning about it on a football forum then?

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, The Left Back said:

Picking up on the highlighted parts of your post

You misunderstand me completely if you think I am suggesting looking at puppies.

As to what we do about it, I'm up for a conversation about action.  But coming to a football forum repeatedly with the same message would not be part of my action plan.  In fact you could argue that your action is having a paradoxical effect.

This need you have to admit the country is broken - it's just such binary language and doesn't help.  The problems you raise you say rightly are bigger than just this current government.  They are also bigger than this country.  The world system we are part of is finally waking up to the consequences of 200 years of industrialisation.  I come across people working really hard in service of a sustainable future for all of us.  Those people are not well served by being told their country is broken.  You might think it helps and they need to admit it but I don't agree.  They are acting out of hope and wholehearted commitment, not fear and resignation.

It's clear it is depressing to you, and I have compassion for that.  It is your reality.  So please show yourself some compassion and try and find a way to get 'above the line'.  I find Viktor Frankl helps.  “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.”

I've got no time for those that troll and pick on you.  At the same time they are not the problem and their refusal to agree with your point of view makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

The puppies quote was a glib, tongue in cheek response for which I apologise. My point is though that yes, there are things to be happy about and there is plenty to be thankful for, but that doesn’t alter the fact that things are shit at the moment. As I type there is a report that we could be facing the longest recession in history.

It doesn’t depress me. What does depress me is the fact that so many people are accepting of the situation or continue to enable those who are responsible for the mess we are in.

Of course the world will not change because of a few 6th form level posts on a football forum. But at the same time, why should those who support and enable those who cause this crap get a free ride? I see more and more people stick their heads up above the parapet on social media forums and hear more speak out against what is going on on radio phone ins. The tide seems to be turning and if those who take a few minutes out of their day to speak up for change help in some small measure to speed up the process then that is good enough for me. I have long since given up on the usual WUMs and trolls, but there are plenty of people who just read threads who might just consider voting differently in the next election.

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The puppies quote was a glib, tongue in cheek response for which I apologise. My point is though that yes, there are things to be happy about and there is plenty to be thankful for, but that doesn’t alter the fact that things are shit at the moment. As I type there is a report that we could be facing the longest recession in history.

It doesn’t depress me. What does depress me is the fact that so many people are accepting of the situation or continue to enable those who are responsible for the mess we are in.

Of course the world will not change because of a few 6th form level posts on a football forum. But at the same time, why should those who support and enable those who cause this crap get a free ride? I see more and more people stick their heads up above the parapet on social media forums and hear more speak out against what is going on on radio phone ins. The tide seems to be turning and if those who take a few minutes out of their day to speak up for change help in some small measure to speed up the process then that is good enough for me. I have long since given up on the usual WUMs and trolls, but there are plenty of people who just read threads who might just consider voting differently in the next election.

Is this what it’s all about Sog? You’re relentless bleating on here is part of your big plan to convince a few people on a football forum to vote the same way as you do🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Lord Duckhunter]

Fucking hell, has he used up his 3 posts today yet? 

[cloggy saint]

32 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Is he going to solve all those problems by relentlessly moaning about it on a football forum then?

Have you checked the Saints forum? It's mostly people relentlessly moaning. Does it solve anything? 

[ecuk268]

It wasn't all wine and roses for us baby boomers.

We got our first mortgage in 1975 and then the interest rates went through the roof.

 

[AlexLaw76]

So, to sum up. It is not fair that a 21 year old can’t buy a 3 bed semi with a garage, as they can’t save £106,000 in short order.

other than that, the western world is experiencing a period of decline, some of which is self-imposed.

 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

17 hours ago, egg said:

Holidays are all but a necessity. Foreign ones aren't. Outside of London, £300-350k buys something decent. 20% is £60-70k. With sacrifices, a working professional couple can save that in a sensible time. Drive a shit car, have cheap holidays, be sensible, it can be done. Leasing a nice motor each, insisting on getting on a plane for every holiday, expensive nights out, it won't happen. It ain't as easy as Whitey makes out, but it's possible.  

You can get somewhere that's alright for less than £300K.

[The Left Back]

46 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Is this what it’s all about Sog? You’re relentless bleating on here is part of your big plan to convince a few people on a football forum to vote the same way as you do🤣🤣🤣🤣

You're laughing but actually I think you are right and it's actually a rational response to my challenge.  The good news is I think you can stop worrying about his mental health.  The bad news I think you might be one of the WUMs/Trolls he's referring to.

43 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Fucking hell, has he used up his 3 posts today yet? 

I'll stick my neck and guess you're one too.

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

The puppies quote was a glib, tongue in cheek response for which I apologise. My point is though that yes, there are things to be happy about and there is plenty to be thankful for, but that doesn’t alter the fact that things are shit at the moment. As I type there is a report that we could be facing the longest recession in history.

It doesn’t depress me. What does depress me is the fact that so many people are accepting of the situation or continue to enable those who are responsible for the mess we are in.

Of course the world will not change because of a few 6th form level posts on a football forum. But at the same time, why should those who support and enable those who cause this crap get a free ride? I see more and more people stick their heads up above the parapet on social media forums and hear more speak out against what is going on on radio phone ins. The tide seems to be turning and if those who take a few minutes out of their day to speak up for change help in some small measure to speed up the process then that is good enough for me. I have long since given up on the usual WUMs and trolls, but there are plenty of people who just read threads who might just consider voting differently in the next election.

Apology accepted. 

I actually like your answer; it makes sense.  I go back to my earlier feedback that I think you will be more effective if you focus more on specifics and avoid sweeping generalisations.  And also be more concise.  

[Turkish]

48 minutes ago, cloggy saint said:

Have you checked the Saints forum? It's mostly people relentlessly moaning. Does it solve anything? 

The difference is Sog does think it  helps. Who could forget him congratulating himself on “speaking out against racism” because he posted about it on here. Frigging hilarious stuff