What Is Happening To Our Country?

[badgerx16]

4 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Does the US healthcare system, which I understand is the only alternative to the NHS, leave old people with broken hips in their garden for 7 hours in sub-zero temperatures or is that something only our NHS can achieve thanks to the unique way in which it is funded?

Does the NHS check that you can pay before starting treatment ?

[Whitey Grandad]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Does the NHS check that you can pay before starting treatment ?

Of course it doesn’t. We meet many Americans on our holidays and one was telling us about how he had got something in his eye when he had leant out of a window on a heritage steam train. His treatment was “wonderful” and he desperately wanted to pay for it but they wouldn’t let him. Not that there was any mechanism for him to do so anyway.

In other encounters it was made clear that in America you will definitely get treated. The only issue was who was going to pay for it. We met another English gentleman whose wife had been taken into hospital in Florida after falling ill on a cruise. He described how he was gaily writing cheques for thousands of dollars not knowing whether his insurance company was going to cover them.

[aintforever]

6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Does the US healthcare system, which I understand is the only alternative to the NHS, leave old people with broken hips in their garden for 7 hours in sub-zero temperatures or is that something only our NHS can achieve thanks to the unique way in which it is funded?

The unique way the Conservatives fund it you mean?

[rooney]

My wife was in the dentist awaiting her appointment when a poor looking fella came in with a broken plate. The receptionist apologised but said they were not taking any NHS Patients at the present time. He asked how much would it be to be repaired privately and the answer was "£1500". He said he couldn't afford that and left.

There must be many people in similar circumstances so what are they to do?

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, rooney said:

My wife was in the dentist awaiting her appointment when a poor looking fella came in with a broken plate. The receptionist apologised but said they were not taking any NHS Patients at the present time. He asked how much would it be to be repaired privately and the answer was "£1500". He said he couldn't afford that and left.

There must be many people in similar circumstances so what are they to do?

 

bloody hell, he could get a whole set from Dunhelm for £50

[buctootim]

50 minutes ago, rooney said:

My wife was in the dentist awaiting her appointment when a poor looking fella came in with a broken plate. The receptionist apologised but said they were not taking any NHS Patients at the present time. He asked how much would it be to be repaired privately and the answer was "£1500". He said he couldn't afford that and left.

There must be many people in similar circumstances so what are they to do?

Ive got three molars missing on bottom right side. So it means I often swallow half chewed food which occasionally gets stuck in my airway. £11,000 for implants! I'd rather choke.   

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Ive got three molars missing on bottom right side. So it means I often swallow half chewed food which occasionally gets stuck in my airway. £11,000 for implants! I'd rather choke.   

You need to masticate more.

[buctootim]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You need to masticate more.

Noo. The Wholefood diet. Swallow it straight down.  Live slimmer but shorter.  

[farawaysaint]

So the moral of the story is get dental insurance apparently. Or fly to turkey and pay for it there. 
 

I really struggle to navigate the UK dental system, full disclosure I have no idea how to do any of this and helpfully haven’t needed anything done in a good 20 years.

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

So the moral of the story is get dental insurance apparently. Or fly to turkey and pay for it there. 
 

I really struggle to navigate the UK dental system, full disclosure I have no idea how to do any of this and helpfully haven’t needed anything done in a good 20 years.

The trouble with your teeth is you don’t know you need anything done until it’s too late. Best off getting 6 monthly check ups and an annual descale and polish if you can. It’s helped me nip a few things in the bud that could have ended up costing a fortune if been left 

[Weston Super Saint]

That's the (Blitz) spirit and fine practice for the forthcoming strikes.  Just goes to prove, where there's a will, there's a way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63948640

Quote

With my partner and my mum's help we managed to come up with the idea of getting him onto a plank of wood and into the back of my partner's van to get him up to hospital

 

[Turkish]

Well those nurses striking seem to be having a whale of a time given what they’ve just shown on the news. Lots of smiling faces and giggles on the news as they chant “what do we want….”  
they don’t exactly look like a bunch of people furious with their pay and conditions.

BTW I fully support the nurses strike and think they’re being taken the piss out of in many ways. 

[whelk]

Who the fuck needs nurses? We need to look after the wealth generators. If we don’t have the likes of Michelle Mone when we have another health pandemic we will be fucked. Greedy bastards

[egg]

31 minutes ago, whelk said:

Who the fuck needs nurses? We need to look after the wealth generators. If we don’t have the likes of Michelle Mone when we have another health pandemic we will be fucked. Greedy bastards

I wander how many people supporting the nurses strikes are cool with either the tax rises needed to pay the £10billion or so that it'll cost, or cuts from elsewhere.  Personally, they need to be looked after to some extent, but even labour are saying that what they want is unaffordable. 

[Whitey Grandad]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

I wander how many people supporting the nurses strikes are cool with either the tax rises needed to pay the £10billion or so that it'll cost, or cuts from elsewhere.  Personally, they need to be looked after to some extent, but even labour are saying that what they want is unaffordable. 

I saw a figure of an extra 4% on income tax just for the nurses demands alone. I don’t know how true this is.

[egg]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

I saw a figure of an extra 4% on income tax just for the nurses demands alone. I don’t know how true this is.

Doesn't surprise me. Then it'll be police, firemen, etc. People have got to be realistic. 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I saw a figure of an extra 4% on income tax just for the nurses demands alone. I don’t know how true this is.

Complete bs. Thing is they open with high unrealistic demand. Govt refuse to negotiate and leave it hanging and then people think that is going to be the settlement.

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Doesn't surprise me. Then it'll be police, firemen, etc. People have got to be realistic. 

By being realistic accept we are skint as the 5th richest economy and cannot afford anything?  NHS is broken and needs reform. Nurses clearly have grievances but media will spin it all about greed and hey presto look at the above posts. Govt tactics will backfire and they are using their tired old playbook championed by most of the press to demonise but most people know rail workers, postmen, teachers and nurses and are sympathetic. 
 

Edited 15 December, 2022 by whelk

[The Left Back]

2 hours ago, egg said:

I wander how many people supporting the nurses strikes are cool with either the tax rises needed to pay the £10billion or so that it'll cost, or cuts from elsewhere.  Personally, they need to be looked after to some extent, but even labour are saying that what they want is unaffordable. 

I am. Don’t think they’ll need that to settle but may as well hold out for that until the government come to the table.

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I saw a figure of an extra 4% on income tax just for the nurses demands alone. I don’t know how true this is.

Fuck me. That’s like £100 billion. You should be embarrassed to be even repeating such a ridiculous piece of Tory propaganda 

Edited 15 December, 2022 by The Left Back
Apologies Whiteley I was doing 4% of GDP not income tax. Criticism withdrawn, my error. The figures you quote are still an exaggeration as Badger points out but not anything like I suggested. Mea culpa.

[egg]

Just now, whelk said:

By being realistic accept we are skint as the 5th richest economy and cannot afford anything?  NHS is broken and needs reform. Nurses clearly have grievances but media will spin it all about greed and hey presto look at the above posts. Govt tactics will backfire and they arm to using their tired old playbook championed by most of the press to demonise but most people know rail workers, postmen, teachers and nurses and are sympathetic

Being realistic means accepting that our economy is in a mess and that there's no money sitting around for these pay rises. It's gotta come from cuts or tax rises - look what happened when Kwarteng tried to magic money.

The NHS needs reform for sure, but that's a separate issue. Regardless - how do we pay for reform, and big pay rises without slashing from elsewhere and/or raising taxes?

Nobody has used the word greed apart from you - I've simply said the nurses should get more money, but that they need to be paid for somehow.

If you're supporting big pay rises, how do you say they're paid for? 

[whelk]

Nurses are basically supporting Putin by trying to cripple the economy 

Edited 15 December, 2022 by whelk

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Nurses are basically supporting Putin by trying to cripple the economy 

What a daft answer! "Give the nurses cash" is too easy to say, but don't waffle on about Putin when asked where the money is gonna come from! 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Being realistic means accepting that our economy is in a mess and that there's no money sitting around for these pay rises. It's gotta come from cuts or tax rises - look what happened when Kwarteng tried to magic money.

The NHS needs reform for sure, but that's a separate issue. Regardless - how do we pay for reform, and big pay rises without slashing from elsewhere and/or raising taxes?

Nobody has used the word greed apart from you - I've simply said the nurses should get more money, but that they need to be paid for somehow.

If you're supporting big pay rises, how do you say they're paid for? 

They are never going to get 19%. Hearing interviews from picket lines these people are decent normal hardworking people who don’t want to be striking. Why do you think they are for first time in a hundred years?

Kwarteng’s car crash budget seems to have benefitted the govt longer term as now every one believes we are skint and you must take pay cuts you serfs otherwise the speculators will crash the economy. Orwellian how short people’s memory’s are talking about tax cuts and borrowing for growth- championed by the same people who have now u-turned and now we are to believe the new gospel. Depressing 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

What a daft answer! "Give the nurses cash" is too easy to say, but don't waffle on about Putin when asked where the money is gonna come from! 

There is always money. Unless you are on top of the whole economic system and fully understand it. Question back is why do you believe there is no money?

Were you saying there was no money when bankers needed bailing? When just pumped money into the economy? When they found £600bn for Covid? 
 

 

[egg]

Just now, whelk said:

There is always money. Unless you are on top of the whole economic system and fully understand it. Question back is why do you believe there is no money?

Were you saying there was no money when bankers needed bailing? When just pumped money into the economy? When they found £600bn for Covid? 
 

 

In reverse order, primarily borrowing. You know that. 

The level of our borrowing is through the roof, and costs us a fortune. You also know that. 

Where's the gap between our tax revenue and spending to fund Billions on pay rises? Or are you advocating yet more borrowing? 

 

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I saw a figure of an extra 4% on income tax just for the nurses demands alone. I don’t know how true this is.

 

8 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

 

Fuck me. That’s like £100 billion. You should be embarrassed to be even repeating such a ridiculous piece of Tory propaganda 

The total wage bill for the NHS, excluding GPs and a few national administration bodies, is about £50Bn, or around 46% of the NHS budget.  Of this wage bill, approximately a third is nurses' pay. Income tax in 2021/22 is estimated to have been £228Bn, with NI bringing another £161Bn. By very rough maths; awarding the nurses 19% would cost an additional £3.2Bn, or roughly 1.4% on Income Tax, assuming it is an 'across the board' increase and it is funded by that means.

 

( This is based on a few GOOGLE searches, and somebody else may well find alternative figures ).

[Whitey Grandad]

34 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

I am. Don’t think they’ll need that to settle but may as well hold out for that until the government come to the table.

Fuck me. That’s like £100 billion. You should be embarrassed to be even repeating such a ridiculous piece of Tory propaganda 

Why? What’s your figure then?

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

 

The total wage bill for the NHS, excluding GPs and a few national administration bodies, is about £50Bn, or around 46% of the NHS budget.  Of this wage bill, approximately a third is nurses' pay. Income tax in 2021/22 is estimated to have been £228Bn, with NI bringing another £161Bn. By very rough maths; awarding the nurses 19% would cost an additional £3.2Bn, or roughly 1.4% on Income Tax, assuming it is an 'across the board' increase and it is funded by that means.

 

( This is based on a few GOOGLE searches, and somebody else may well find alternative figures ).

Probably time to privatise it. The NHS wasn’t created serve a population of lazy overweight entitled fuckers with self inflicted conditions but that’s what we’ve become. Or maybe some of the pharmaceutical or food and drink companies that make billions of profits by keeping people sick with their pills and poor advice should be made to pump some of their profits into healthcare?

Edited 15 December, 2022 by Turkish

[trousers]

2 hours ago, egg said:

I wander how many people supporting the nurses strikes are cool with either the tax rises needed to pay the £10billion or so that it'll cost

 

1 hour ago, The Left Back said:

I am.

There's nothing stopping you, or anyone else, doing this now.... no need to wait for the government to raise taxes....

https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/want-to-pay-more-tax-

Quote

Scarcely a week goes by without calls for higher taxes on the most profitable companies, the highest-earning individuals and the wealthiest families. However, the UK government seems to have little appetite for introducing new taxes. Among other things, this reflects concerns that early tax increases could damage economic recovery from the pandemic, while also prejudicing support for the government.

In both UK and USA, groups of wealthy individual taxpayers are offering to pay more tax as an expression of their patriotic duty and concerns about social inequality. There have also been suggestions that, during the first wave of the pandemic, almost one half of UK employees were prepared to personally pay a little more tax to help restore the nation’s finances and boost the NHS.

Cynics may judge offers to pay extra taxes voluntarily as virtue-signalling of the worst kind; ‘tax-washing’, if you will. Nevertheless, they should remember that the UK has a long and stable tradition of philanthropy. According to the Charities Aid Foundation, charitable giving is continuing at around £10bn per year. It’s entirely possible, therefore, that people who are volunteering to pay more tax are completely sincere in what they say.

If they are sincere, then I have good news for them: the government makes it easy for any UK-resident individual or UK-registered business to make voluntary payments to HM Treasury. Although gifts cannot be ring-fenced for a specific purpose or assigned to a specific area of public spending, donors can decide whether they wish to make a donation towards general public expenditure or to reduce the national debt.

To donate towards general public expenditure, all that is required is a simple email to the Treasury providing basic information. The donor must also acknowledge that they cannot request a refund of the donation once it has been made. They also have to confirm that the monies are theirs to give and are not the proceeds of crime, money laundering or other illegal activity. The Treasury then provides details of the bank account and reference to be used. It could hardly be simpler.

People wishing to contribute to the reduction of the national debt embark on a similar, simple process with the UK Debt Management Office.

It sounds like the perfect recipe doesn’t it? The government needs more money. There seems to be no shortage of people who say they are prepared to pay extra taxes. And, since 1823, the government has operated a simple mechanism to collect these amounts. What could possibly go wrong?

But something is not working. The accounts of the Debt Management Office for the year ended 31 March 2020 show that it received donations or bequests totalling just £48,957. While that’s a large percentage increase on the £11,069 received during the year ended 31 March 2019, by any standards these figures are tiny.

So, what’s happening? Is government to blame for not publicising the arrangements, with the result that potential donors are unaware that they can make voluntary payments? Or, in a country which has a long and strong tradition of supporting charities, do donors trust charities more than they do the government? Certainly, donations to a specific charity allow the donor to support a favoured cause, rather than paying money to the Treasury for the government to use as it wishes. Or is it the case that, as the cynics argue, some of those who are volunteering to pay more taxes are doing no more than virtue-signalling? 

 

Edited 15 December, 2022 by trousers

[Turkish]

Just now, trousers said:

 

There's nothing stopping you, or anyone else, doing this now.... no need to wait for the government to raise taxes....

https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/want-to-pay-more-tax-

 

I remember aintforever boasting during lockdown that he’d be happy to pay higher taxes to help others out, so I expect he’s already done this. 

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I remember aintforever boasting during lockdown that he’d be happy to pay higher taxes to help others out, so I expect he’s already done this. 

That may account for the £48,957 extra voluntary tax collected in year ending March 2020 being much higher than the £11,069 collected in year ending March 2019....

Edited 15 December, 2022 by trousers

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

That may account for the £48,957 extra voluntary tax collected in year ending March 2020 being much higher than the £11,069 collected in year ending March 2019....

always said he was a good lad 😀

[whelk]

Comes to something when Express seems to have more sense

[skintsaint]

8 hours ago, egg said:

I wander how many people supporting the nurses strikes are cool with either the tax rises needed to pay the £10billion or so that it'll cost, or cuts from elsewhere.  Personally, they need to be looked after to some extent, but even labour are saying that what they want is unaffordable. 

I'm sure a decent percentage of the wage increase will be put back into the economy though so not all lose lose.

Nurses striking here in West Aus too, asking for 5% and the govt with a huge billion dollar surplus has said no and offering 3% only with a $3k one off bonus which is taxed also 🤨

Edited 16 December, 2022 by skintsaint

[Tamesaint]

Has nobody in government heard the word "negotiate"?  Nurses ask for 19% . You offer 4%. They reduce their demands. You increase your offer and you meet somewhere in the middle. In Scotland there are no strikes and it looks as if 8% is going to be accepted.

The government is certainly playing an odd game at the moment. Presumably they see political mileage in taking a hard stance. I am not so sure. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Why does 80k Mick want the Government to join negotiations regarding the rail strikes?  Aren't most of the rail companies owned (or partly / jointly owned) by EU companies / state organisations?  As private companies, the Government shouldn't have any say over how much their workers get paid (apart from setting and ensuring minimum wages).  Would the Government intervene if Aldi workers went on strike?

[Weston Super Saint]

11 hours ago, whelk said:

By being realistic accept we are skint as the 5th richest economy 

You should pop this on the Brexit thread.  A lot of people on there think we've become a third world country.

[badgerx16]

44 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Why does 80k Mick want the Government to join negotiations regarding the rail strikes?  Aren't most of the rail companies owned (or partly / jointly owned) by EU companies / state organisations?  As private companies, the Government shouldn't have any say over how much their workers get paid (apart from setting and ensuring minimum wages).  Would the Government intervene if Aldi workers went on strike?

Because the Department for Transport run at least 3 of the regional franchises, and also the Government define the railways as a critical national infrastructure. The Govt don't legislate to prevent ALDI workers going on a strike with 100% walk out and total closure of all shops.

Edited 16 December, 2022 by badgerx16

[whelk]

3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Why does 80k Mick want the Government to join negotiations regarding the rail strikes?  Aren't most of the rail companies owned (or partly / jointly owned) by EU companies / state organisations?  As private companies, the Government shouldn't have any say over how much their workers get paid (apart from setting and ensuring minimum wages).  Would the Government intervene if Aldi workers went on strike?

Great comparison. It’s identical

[buctootim]

14 hours ago, whelk said:

There is always money. Question back is why do you believe there is no money? Were you saying there was no money when bankers needed bailing? When just pumped money into the economy? When they found £600bn for Covid? 

Rly? 

Edited 16 December, 2022 by buctootim

[revolution saint]

Normally when you have vacancies and a retention issue then increasing wages tends to address the problem to some extent.  I'd have thought it would be in the govt interest to come to a settlement for that reason alone. 

The 19% figure is obviously not what the nurses will get and everyone knows this but it highlights just how much pay for nurses has fallen against inflation over the last decade - for everyone saying how big a figure it is and how the country can't afford it - why do you think nurses somehow can absorb the size of that kind of cut?

[aintforever]

16 hours ago, Turkish said:

I remember aintforever boasting during lockdown that he’d be happy to pay higher taxes to help others out, so I expect he’s already done this. 

Wow, you really are obsessed with me aren't you. I have barely posted anything for a couple of weeks yet you are still carrying on with this playground bully stuff. It’s nice that you think about me so much but it is a little weird mate. Get a hobby or something, might take your mind of me a bit.

As for paying more tax, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. That’s the elephant in the room with this whole cost of living crisis. For a large chunk of the population it’s not a crisis. I’m reasonably well paid but not rich by a long way, it’s not a crisis for me. It’s a bit of an inconvenience but it’s no big deal if we have to scale down our next holiday or if the mrs doesn’t get the latest iPhone. The house is full of crap we don’t need anyway, people need to get over this addiction to buying pointless shit for the sake of it.

For many on high wages it’s not even an inconvenience, there is plenty more medium-high earners could afford to contribute without effecting the economy, let alone the rich - super-rich.

Edited 16 December, 2022 by aintforever

[Weston Super Saint]

29 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Normally when you have vacancies and a retention issue then increasing wages tends to address the problem to some extent.  I'd have thought it would be in the govt interest to come to a settlement for that reason alone. 

The 19% figure is obviously not what the nurses will get and everyone knows this but it highlights just how much pay for nurses has fallen against inflation over the last decade - for everyone saying how big a figure it is and how the country can't afford it - why do you think nurses somehow can absorb the size of that kind of cut?

8.8% increase in the national living wage in April - which the Government has dictated all private firms must pay.  I would expect that would be the pay increase for the NHS at the very minimum, which would put a band 5 newly qualified nurse on over £30k.

[trousers]

21 minutes ago, aintforever said:

As for paying more tax, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest.

Question... (I'm genuinely interested rather than looking for bites etc)

Any theories/thoughts on why the amount of voluntary additional tax payments are at a negligible level? Given there are so many people who would be happy to pay more tax I'm slightly bemused as to why it doesn't already happen in large numbers.

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

Question... (I'm genuinely interested rather than looking for bites etc)

Any theories/thoughts on why the amount of voluntary additional tax payments are at a negligible level? Given there are so many people who would be happy to pay more tax I'm slightly bemused as to why it doesn't already happen in large numbers.

People give loads to charities instead I suppose.

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

People give loads to charities instead I suppose.

How much additional tax are you currently paying (voluntarily)?

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

People give loads to charities instead I suppose.

As a tax write off?

[The Left Back]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

Question... (I'm genuinely interested rather than looking for bites etc)

Any theories/thoughts on why the amount of voluntary additional tax payments are at a negligible level? Given there are so many people who would be happy to pay more tax I'm slightly bemused as to why it doesn't already happen in large numbers.

I'll have a run at this one.

Like aintforever I'd be happy to pay more tax personally as part of a shift in political ideology and a national effort to resolve some of the problems we face.  Taxes aren't popular but there can be fairness writ through national tax policy.

The reason I'm not drawn to voluntary additional tax payments is because it's just propping up the existing ideology.  As an individual my discretionary spend goes much further if I hand it directly to those in need rather than donate it to a corrupt government hell bent on protecting the wealth of the few and increasing the gap between the haves and have nots.

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As a tax write off?

I expect some do.

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

I'll have a run at this one.

Like aintforever I'd be happy to pay more tax personally as part of a shift in political ideology and a national effort to resolve some of the problems we face.  Taxes aren't popular but there can be fairness writ through national tax policy.

The reason I'm not drawn to voluntary additional tax payments is because it's just propping up the existing ideology.  As an individual my discretionary spend goes much further if I hand it directly to those in need rather than donate it to a corrupt government hell bent on protecting the wealth of the few and increasing the gap between the haves and have nots.

I guess those that contributed to the £4.8 billion worth of tax evasion in 2021 agree with your position on propping up the existing ideology? ( source )

Surely those people who have evaded their taxes aren't ideologically opposed to nurses receving a 19% pay rise which could easily be covered if they coughed up?