Good Job We Got Rid Of JVD

[TijuanaTim]

What a POS http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=652151&sec=europe&cc=5901 allegedly of course...

[Rocker268]

it seems like a very one sided article to me, JVD is obviously denying it, so to me it looks like the media trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. not that I condone this sort of attitude, but things like this can always be taken out of context, especially when you don't know why this incident occured or all the facts behind it

[david in sweden]

What a POS http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=652151&sec=europe&cc=5901 allegedly of course...

 

Yes it's terrible, all this swearing and abuse on the field.

we all know that players don't normally talk to each other like priests in a seminary.....so here are some suggestions for approved player comments;

 

Excuse me, did I trip you up ? - it was entirely unintentional.

 

Yes, that's correct referee - I did handle the ball unfairly, shall I walk now or do you officially need to show me that red card ..?

 

Yes I understand you only kicked my ankle by accident , ..but it does hurt though .

 

Sorry old chum, it seems me elbow caught you right in the mouth when we both jumped for that corner. Yes, I can see the blood in your mouth, and those teeth on the ground.. I'm most terribly sorry. Can I buy you a beer later to make up for it ?

 

It's terribly regretable that I accidentally took hold of your shirt and stopped you from scoring, but I lost my balance and in falling and I just grabbed at anything. Never mind the ref. didn't see us so, there's no harm done, Eh ?

 

 

Now .....if we had better behaviour from players and a few more friendly responses like these, everyone would be much happier and we could see some fair play, as we do in ...CRICKET !.......... Howzat ?

[Pancake]

Are you saying you condone racial abuse just because it was during a football match David?

[Barry the Badger]

Yes it's terrible, all this swearing and abuse on the field.

we all know that players don't normally talk to each other like priests in a seminary.....

 

Slight difference between swearing and racism mate.

[Junior Mullet]

I am forever calling mates cheeky monkies, little monkies etc but always think twice saying it to my black mates, but why? I would not be saying it in a racist sense.

 

It's all about tone and context.

 

I expect it will be very difficult to prove JVD said it in a racist manner to cause offence if he says otherwise.

[Dicko]

Wow, in the heat of the battle a player abuses another

 

I've never heard of that before

[Barry the Badger]

Wow, in the heat of the battle a player abuses another

 

I've never heard of that before

 

Yes of course, you are right. Racism is fine.

[skintsaint]

all a bit over the top, im glad we got rid of JVD as he was poop.

[Sheaf Saint]

Yes of course, you are right. Racism is fine.

 

How do you know he was being racist though? It could so easily have been taken completely out of context.

[Barry the Badger]

How do you know he was being racist though? It could so easily have been taken completely out of context.

 

Oh come on. Calling a black player a "dirty monkey" could have been taken out of context? Comedy.

 

We don't know that he actually said it of course but you can't try to defend those words with that argument.

[La BoIS Saint]

Oh come on. Calling a black player a "dirty monkey" could have been taken out of context? Comedy.

 

We don't know that he actually said it of course but you can't try to defend those words with that argument.

 

What about Junior Mullet's point above?

[buctootim]

Who knows what was really said and who knows what was really meant or misunderstood between two players with different first languages who are unconnected to Saints. Hardly worth falling out over.

[once_bitterne]

I've just heard that a group of Monkeys from Ape World in Dorset are currently contacting a lawyer with the intention of suing JVD for slander for likening them to an American.

 

Apparently they are contesting that they understand irony, have decent dress sense, do not massacre their own with guns and that 80% of the monkey population is not morbidly obese.

 

I reckon they have a good case.......

[oxfordshire_saint]

If a player playing against United called Paul Scholes a "ginger ***t", would the same fuss kick off?

 

Yet both could be deemed an insult made against a player's appearance.

 

Racism is wrong, but it seems to be deemed more serious in certain areas than others.

 

If you chant "you fat b@stard" at a keeper as he takes a kick, it's an insult based on appearance. If you chant "sheep ****gers" at a Welsh team, it's an insult based on where they are from, yet these sort of things don't even register.

 

If every insult based on how someone looks was brought to book, we'd live in an even crazier world than we already do.

 

It's time people became a little more thick-skinned to stuff said off the cuff, in the heat of battle or in jest. I'm sure JVD plays in the same team as black players who he gets on perfectly well with.

 

It's the same with the Sol Campbell stuff. So you can get slung in the dock if you call him gay, but if you had called him fat everyone would have laughed?

 

I'm sure plenty of players called Luke Chadwick ugly when playing against him, did he ever get all uppity about it?

[Barry the Badger]

What about Junior Mullet's point above?

 

What point? That he sometimes calls his mates little monkey? Really?

 

In what context other than a racist one would the term "dirty monkey" be used towards a black player? Are you trying to suggest the phrase "dirty monkey" could be used in a jovial way like "cheeky monkey"?

 

Get real.

 

buctooim, I know it's not worth falling out over, just makes me laugh when people try to justify racism if it's "in the heat of battle" or try to pretend it could have been "taken out of context".

 

Probably shouldn't be having this discussion on the saints board anyways.

[david in sweden]

Are you saying you condone racial abuse just because it was during a football match David?

 

don't think I mentioned the word...I was only thinking about incidents that might alude to things like..

- perhaps suggesting that an opponent was born out of wedlock...

- or that he was having a illict relationship with his mother, or

- at worst likening him to a part of the female anatomy ...

 

These days I'm not sure what constitutes racial abuse aside from the obvious

references to the the degree of suntan they might have.

 

joking aside lads, rasism has no place in daily life ..and not just football.

[david in sweden]

Slight difference between swearing and racism mate.

 

I was thinking of the " abuse " part of the text.

Racism cannot be condoned anywhere.. and especially not in sport.

Some of the finest players in the country have immigrant backgrounds...

......Scots, Irish and many others.

[lordswoodsaints]

Tbf a monkey would be p1ssed off being compared to a human.

 

Racism,wether you like it or not is part of everyday life across the world,always has been and always will be.

No amount of ad campaigns or crusades will make the slightest bit of difference,it will always be present even if only in peoples thoughts.

Wars are being fought on a daily basis because of race and as long as black,White, yellow or whatever colour peope exist on this planet there will always be differences of opinion.

[Alain Perrin]

I asked my mate Nig Nog about this and he didn't feel it was racist.

 

On a serious note, any form of racism (even follicle racism against my Ginger brothers) is out of order. There are however terms / sayings that are said without intent (and, IMHO, it is the intent that makes it racist).

 

For example, "to call a spade a spade" - used all the time, but has racist origins.

 

It's a crazy ****ed up world out there people.

[TijuanaTim]

I've just heard that a group of Monkeys from Ape World in Dorset are currently contacting a lawyer with the intention of suing JVD for slander for likening them to an American.

 

Apparently they are contesting that they understand irony, have decent dress sense, do not massacre their own with guns and that 80% of the monkey population is not morbidly obese.

 

I reckon they have a good case.......

 

That'll be another good topic for us to discuss in the very near future my witty, well-dressed, non-murdering, skinny friend...keep your eyes peeled for a friendly neighborhood 'American' in your vicinity soon sweety...

[lee_saint]

Jelle Van Damme is my hero....anyone who can pull of a red sleeveless puffa jacket while driving a Hummer means business.

[Baj]

A racist flem, whodathunkit....

[TijuanaTim]

If a player playing against United called Paul Scholes a "ginger ***t", would the same fuss kick off?

 

Yet both could be deemed an insult made against a player's appearance.

 

Racism is wrong, but it seems to be deemed more serious in certain areas than others.

 

If you chant "you fat b@stard" at a keeper as he takes a kick, it's an insult based on appearance. If you chant "sheep ****gers" at a Welsh team, it's an insult based on where they are from, yet these sort of things don't even register.

 

If every insult based on how someone looks was brought to book, we'd live in an even crazier world than we already do.

 

It's time people became a little more thick-skinned to stuff said off the cuff, in the heat of battle or in jest. I'm sure JVD plays in the same team as black players who he gets on perfectly well with.

 

It's the same with the Sol Campbell stuff. So you can get slung in the dock if you call him gay, but if you had called him fat everyone would have laughed?

 

I'm sure plenty of players called Luke Chadwick ugly when playing against him, did he ever get all uppity about it?

 

Trying to relate to your note here mate...even though it is not appropriate, it is legit to call someone 'A ginger ¢unt' (unless, of course, 'ginger' is being used derisively as an anti-gay term e.g. ginger beer), however it ain't legit to refer to an African-American as a 'dirt..' or 'dirty monkey'. That would be an illegal racist slander in a lot of Europe. Ironically (for Brad) it is legal to call anyone almost anything in the USA due to the 'freedom of speech' amendment...funny as much stick as the US takes (especially from stalker Brad) you can refer to people here being insulting and swearing about sexual preference, race, colour, creed, religion etc etc as long as it is not deemed to be threatening??

 

Personally, along with most of you, I believe racism, homophobia etc to be heinous, we have to ask ourselves does that give us the right to tell others that they cannot be passively racist??? A real gray area FFS - philosophy I guess.

 

'Sheepsh@ggers', could surely be percieved as bigotry or a form of (maybe) racism?

 

"I'm sure JVD plays in the same team as black players who he gets on perfectly well with." A bad 'assumption I would say...other wise (allegedly) he wouldn't be calling players 'dirty monkeys'...do you/have you worked with "black" associates before and if so do find yourself calling them 'dirty monkeys'..nah, I thought not, neither do the rest of us. If he said it, he's racist - period, point blank.

 

There is another whole 'born as/lifestyle choice' argument as well, you could say that anti catholic or anti semitism or anti obesity is accaptable to some as they are all lifestyle choices, whereas being racist or homophobic, anti the handicapped (or even maybe 'ginger haired') is 100% undebatable as y'born that way FFS?

 

When I left Southampton 20 years and two days ago, we were a lot more thick skinned. I couldn't get over how politically correct I had to be here in California. However in the past twenty years us Brits have got a lot more sensitive it seems....

 

BTW, you made interesting points, hence my response...no criticism intented.

[Dicko]

I agree with Oxfordshire

 

Sorry Tim, I think you're totally overreacting

[oxfordshire_saint]

Trying to relate to your note here mate...even though it is not appropriate, it is legit to call someone 'A ginger ****' (unless, of course, 'ginger' is being used derisively as an anti-gay term e.g. ginger beer), however it ain't legit to refer to an African-American as a 'dirt..' or 'dirty monkey'. That would be an illegal racist slander in a lot of Europe. Ironically (for Brad) it is legal to call anyone almost anything in the USA due to the 'freedom of speech' amendment...funny as much stick as the US takes (especially from stalker Brad) you can refer to people here being insulting and swearing about sexual preference, race, colour, creed, religion etc etc as long as it is not deemed to be threatening??

 

Personally, along with most of you, I believe racism, homophobia etc to be heinous, we have to ask ourselves does that give us the right to tell others that they cannot be passively racist??? A real gray area FFS - philosophy I guess.

 

'Sheepsh@ggers', could surely be percieved as bigotry or a form of (maybe) racism?

 

"I'm sure JVD plays in the same team as black players who he gets on perfectly well with." A bad 'assumption I would say...other wise (allegedly) he wouldn't be calling players 'dirty monkeys'...do you/have you worked with "black" associates before and if so do find yourself calling them 'dirty monkeys'..nah, I thought not, neither do the rest of us. If he said it, he's racist - period, point blank.

 

There is another whole 'born as/lifestyle choice' argument as well, you could say that anti catholic or anti semitism or anti obesity is accaptable to some as they are all lifestyle choices, whereas being racist or homophobic, anti the handicapped (or even maybe 'ginger haired') is 100% undebatable as y'born that way FFS?

 

When I left Southampton 20 years and two days ago, we were a lot more thick skinned. I couldn't get over how politically correct I had to be here in California. However in the past twenty years us Brits have got a lot more sensitive it seems....

 

BTW, you made interesting points, hence my response...no criticism intented.

 

You make some good points, but I still stand by my views.

 

My point was that these things always seem to make the news when it's a "minority" being offended.

 

How many Brits living in Australia do you think go to the authorities claiming a racial incident for being called a "Pom"? Yes, it's not as venemous as JVD's alleged words, but a slur nonetheless.

 

It's kind of hard to sum up, because whilst I'm not trying to absolve JVD (what he said is out of order), I'm also of the feeling that the race card is whipped out all too quickly sometimes.

 

There is a difference between a racist comment and a racist person, I'm of the opinion that whilst it isn't the wisest thing to do, you can make a racist comment without being a racist person.

 

Ron Atkinson for example, a horrifically racist comment, but I don't feel he is a racist person, he was just from a different time.

 

Anywho, for fear of turning this into a political forum, that's my last on the matter!

[Barry the Badger]

 

How many Brits living in Australia do you think go to the authorities claiming a racial incident for being called a "Pom"? Yes, it's not as venemous as JVD's alleged words, but a slur nonetheless.

 

I think the difference in levels of sensitivity lies in the fact that the British have never been enslaved and persecuted by Australians for simply being British, to the best of my knowledge.

 

You can't roll out the old 'ginger' argument as it doesn't have the same recent history and context, which is why it is not taken in the same way.

[once_bitterne]

That'll be another good topic for us to discuss in the very near future my witty, well-dressed, non-murdering, skinny friend...keep your eyes peeled for a friendly neighborhood 'American' in your vicinity soon sweety...

 

There was a great thing on tv earlier in the week Tim! It was a good old ‘Let’s All Laugh at the Yanks” Programme, you would have loved it! It was about the hundreds of Yank teenagers that were so fat they needed gastric bands fitted or had to have 90% of their stomachs removed.

One particularly poignant moment was when one post-surgery Behemoth was eating her liquidised vegetable lunch and talking about her support group. Her Support Group were sat around her as she ate, gorging themselves on KFC Buckets.

God Bless America!!!!

[Arizona]

I'm glad we got rid of JVD because he was gash.

[Pancake]

I've just heard that a group of Monkeys from Ape World in Dorset are currently contacting a lawyer with the intention of suing JVD for slander for likening them to an American.

 

Apparently they are contesting that they understand irony, have decent dress sense, do not massacre their own with guns and that 80% of the monkey population is not morbidly obese.

 

I reckon they have a good case.......

 

Brilliant.

[TijuanaTim]

There was a great thing on tv earlier in the week Tim! It was a good old ‘Let’s All Laugh at the Yanks” Programme, you would have loved it! It was about the hundreds of Yank teenagers that were so fat they needed gastric bands fitted or had to have 90% of their stomachs removed.

One particularly poignant moment was when one post-surgery Behemoth was eating her liquidised vegetable lunch and talking about her support group. Her Support Group were sat around her as she ate, gorging themselves on KFC Buckets.

God Bless America!!!!

 

Yeah...keep watching Brad. They show you loads of stuff about how krap life is in the civilized World to keep peasants like you happy with the awful life they have. So that the gullible will believe that their meaningless and empty existences are actually better than at least one or two people that live in the nation of the leaders of the free world...dream on and see you real soon.

[skintsaint]

hes a monster of a centre back on FM though...must be playing well to have stats like that?

[Verbal]

Yeah...keep watching Brad. They show you loads of stuff about how krap life is in the civilized World to keep peasants like you happy with the awful life they have. So that the gullible will believe that their meaningless and empty existences are actually better than at least one or two people that live in the nation of the leaders of the free world...dream on and see you real soon.

 

Tim, I've just about worked out your top post, but what does the rest of it - eg, the above! - actually mean? I'm sure I'm missing something important.

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

V

[Rasiak-9-]

If i was Onyewu i'd genuinely just laugh it off and say something like

 

"we both know you wouldn't ****ing dare say that if you weren't safe on a football pitch"

[SP Saint]

That'll be another good topic for us to discuss in the very near future my witty, well-dressed, non-murdering, skinny friend...keep your eyes peeled for a friendly neighborhood 'American' in your vicinity soon sweety...

 

Are we talking immigrant American or persecuted native American here TT?

[CalshotSpit]

Yeah...keep watching Brad. They show you loads of stuff about how krap life is in the civilized World to keep peasants like you happy with the awful life they have. So that the gullible will believe that their meaningless and empty existences are actually better than at least one or two people that live in the nation of the leaders of the free world...dream on and see you real soon.

 

The nation responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq on the whim of one man, backed up by a poodle from this country.

If you want to drone on about the 'land of the free' or the 'leader of the free world' don't mention 'weapons of mass destruction' or 'support for terrorism in Iraq' in the same breath.

 

Plastic yanks are always up their own ass, sorry, arse.

[smithy]

My opinion - The whole PC thing is liberal ********. One rule for everyone who wants to be different and another for the general population.

 

There you go -

 

This thread should be locked.

[John B]

Racial abuse should not be tolerated

[Verbal]

Racial abuse should not be tolerated

 

Exactly.

[RonManager]

I used to go out with Rachel Abuse - but I became intolerant of her.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The nation responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq on the whim of one man, backed up by a poodle from this country.

If you want to drone on about the 'land of the free' or the 'leader of the free world' don't mention 'weapons of mass destruction' or 'support for terrorism in Iraq' in the same breath.

 

Plastic yanks are always up their own ass, sorry, arse.

 

While you're perfectly free to express your populist anti US bile you might care to remember the freedom you enjoy now was in large part bought with the blood of American fighting men and the industry of it's workers .

[The9]

While you're perfectly free to express your populist anti US bile you might care to remember the freedom you enjoy now was in large part bought with the blood of American fighting men and the industry of it's workers .

 

I'm not sure being so late for the last two World Wars justifies being so early for the next one...

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I'm not sure being so late for the last two World Wars justifies being so early for the next one...

 

That's one hell of a perception! One which I am also fearful off.

 

Question, probably this will provoke further debate, when our troops finally hand over control in whichever of Iraq or Afghanistan how long will it be before the perceived 'baddies' regain control of that country? While here and many parts of the world work on the ballot box there are many that work on the bullet. Now that's a culture that will probably never be removed, sad as it may seem.

[Steel City Saint]

Somebody replies yesterday to an e-mail that died a natural death in early June and all of a sudden it is back on politics and general nonsense.

 

Can this be locked or at least be moved off the football part of the forum?

[Killers Knee]

politically correct drivel propagated by inane public sector working thought police.

[trousers]

"Offence" is an arbitrary state of mind invented by human beings.

 

To prove my point, when was the last time you saw an offended beaver?

 

No, thought not.

[darren1]

Hopefully I'll be seeing a nice beaver tonight, I'll see what I can do.......

[Oxford Saint]

Dirty monkey & cheeky monkey purely mean mischeivous or wicked. It refers to the nature of monkey behaviour not the physical appearance. My dad used to call me a cheeky monkey when I was a kid. It's perfectly possible that the comment was made without racist intent.

 

By the way, it's also a sex act, apparently!

 

On the other issues mentioned, gingerism is racist, it's just considered acceptable. As for the pom thing, it can be pretty distressing being on the receiving end of whinging pom taunts, it's not always plkayful & can get pretty aggressive.

[Verbal]

Tim,

 

Every single time someone raises something to do with racism on here, we get an instant demonstration of the thin veneer of civilization. Their are enough knee-jerk ravings against the 'politically correct', the 'thought police', or making fatuous comparisons with 'anti-ginger' attitudes, etc, to make this forum a rather depressing place - especially for those of us who think that the club, and football in general, has made some real progress on this issue over the years.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is. Not to raise the question at all? Should the mods have a policy of only allowing the discussion on the Lounge? The problem is, the discussion never evolves: it always turns on the same, tired old claptrap. And I think it happens partly because many simply don't see the reality of racism and its truly gruesome history. Name-calling is one really quite tiny part of it.

 

I agree with those who've called for this thread to be locked.

[RonManager]

She had a friend called Rachel Tension