Toby

so the club openly said they are confident he will sign and that he wanted to come.... And you can't see any warrant for criticism when he goes elsewhere?

No. See post #2810

I think it fairly well known by all that we would try or actually match Spurs's offer. The agent could wait a little longer if he really wanted to come here. Everyone criticising the board have one thing in common - the inability to take into account what Toby wanted, but cling on to him saying that he would be happy to come back here. Amazing that people take players at their word. A bit naive isn't it?

If Spurs nip in ahead of us to sign Toby then frankly it is a shambles and some serious questions need to be asked over our transfer committees ability to get signings of truly coveted players over the line.

Well they're not going to go into negotiations saying that they're not sure whether they can or can't do it, are they? And what you consider a leak might or might not be so.

 

But really, what the player says is irrelevant. It is what the player does that is relevant. Presuming that this goes through with Spurs shows that HE WANTED TO SIGN FOR SPURS RATHER THAN US as that is exactly what he has done. Is that really too hard a concept to understand? I am not immune to criticising the club, but when the decision is made by the player of where he wants to go, and he is going to a far bigger club than us - so to my mind is understandable, and in fact I would find it strange (but would be delighted) had he turned them down for us - then I see there being very little the club can do.

The club cannot control what Toby does. The club can control the messages they give to the fans. They said - as recently as Monday (the day he apparently had the first part of his medical at Spurs) - that they believed he wanted to join.

As a fan I of course understand the reasons why he would want to join Spurs. Location, money, better team etc. - all fair and valid reasons. No need to be upset about that. What I don't like is when my club start to give public messages about no player being sold until we have a new Manager and then 48hrs later Rickie Lambert sold when we have no Manager, when they say they are confident that Clyne will sign a new deal and then he doesn't, and when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs.

All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

No. See post #2810

 

I think it fairly well known by all that we would try or actually match Spurs's offer. The agent could wait a little longer if he really wanted to come here. Everyone criticising the board have one thing in common - the inability to take into account what Toby wanted, but cling on to him saying that he would be happy to come back here. Amazing that people take players at their word. A bit naive isn't it?

Exactly. Toby changed his mind, end of story.

No. See post #2810

 

I think it fairly well known by all that we would try or actually match Spurs's offer. The agent could wait a little longer if he really wanted to come here. Everyone criticising the board have one thing in common - the inability to take into account what Toby wanted, but cling on to him saying that he would be happy to come back here. Amazing that people take players at their word. A bit naive isn't it?

Well, no. I believe Les and Ron should shoulder some blame when Toby signs for Spurs as they didn't manage the expectations of the fans well at all. Yet I also take in to account and understand that Toby would prefer to play for Spurs.

The club cannot control what Toby does. The club can control the messages they give to the fans. They said - as recently as Monday (the day he apparently had the first part of his medical at Spurs) - that they believed he wanted to join.

 

As a fan I of course understand the reasons why he would want to join Spurs. Location, money, better team etc. - all fair and valid reasons. No need to be upset about that. What I don't like is when my club start to give public messages about no player being sold until we have a new Manager and then 48hrs later Rickie Lambert sold when we have no Manager, when they say they are confident that Clyne will sign a new deal and then he doesn't, and when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs.

 

All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

This, by miles.

As mooted yesterday, I will be interested to hear what RK says about losing Toby to Spurs. I imagine publically he will be stoic and say that Toby had called him etc to explain his reasons and he wishes him all the best. I still think RK is a breath of fresh air in a very murky world and firmly believe that he will again move us forwards next year!

Or maybe Toby told Atletico he wanted to sign for Spurs at the start of this and they decided there was little point talking to us.

when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs.

 

All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

so the club openly said they are confident he will sign and that he wanted to come.... And you can't see any warrant for criticism when he goes elsewhere?

Sometimes (often?) in a negotiation situation (and/or legal dispute) you have to convey that you're confident of success even if, deep down, you're not. Especially when things might still be in the balance.

Didums. Club says one thing (what they want/hope/expect to happen) and it doesn't come off. Wow.

Sometimes in a negotiation situation (and/or legal dispute) you have to convey that you're confident of success even if, deep down, you're not.

Well obviously, and in most other walks of life a little personal egoism works well; but not when you are trying to manage the emotional health of countless jumpy football fans.

Didums. Club says one thing (what they want/hope/expect to happen) and it doesn't come off. Wow.

That's not an answer to my question. If the club is to say things publicly and they don't happen, then they will get criticised. As would any club / business etc. But you seem to suggest they shouldn't be for it?

Exactly, which is why the whole "legally he is ours, so hands off him" rhetoric from Saints was embarrassing. We should have shut up in public and when Toby decided who he wanted, just sucked it up and moved on.

That assumes the chronology was:

1) Saints become aware that Toby wants to join Spurs rather than Saints

2) Saints play the "legally he is ours, so hands off him" card

The chronology might have been:

1) Saints play the "legally he is ours, so hands off him" card

2) Saints become aware that Toby wants to join Spurs rather than Saints

Maybe? Maybe not?

At the end of the day, he preferred to join spurs over us, which to be honest is understandable and we all know it. Some people need to get over it, you were all slitting your wrists about Lovren and look how that turned out. We march on!

No. See post #2810

 

I think it fairly well known by all that we would try or actually match Spurs's offer. The agent could wait a little longer if he really wanted to come here. Everyone criticising the board have one thing in common - the inability to take into account what Toby wanted, but cling on to him saying that he would be happy to come back here. Amazing that people take players at their word. A bit naive isn't it?

The club cannot control what Toby does. The club can control the messages they give to the fans. They said - as recently as Monday (the day he apparently had the first part of his medical at Spurs) - that they believed he wanted to join.

 

As a fan I of course understand the reasons why he would want to join Spurs. Location, money, better team etc. - all fair and valid reasons. No need to be upset about that. What I don't like is when my club start to give public messages about no player being sold until we have a new Manager and then 48hrs later Rickie Lambert sold when we have no Manager, when they say they are confident that Clyne will sign a new deal and then he doesn't, and when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs.

 

All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

quite right....

A very good, but not great player. Do think he benefitted from the system. When he was asked to do more -especially when Morgan was injured towards the end of the season; he showed he was quite mortal.

Or maybe Toby told Atletico he wanted to sign for Spurs at the start of this and they decided there was little point talking to us.

Who knows. There has been so much crap circulated throughout all of this, apparently he'd told Madrid officials that he wanted to join us back in May.

It's too messy I think to come to a real conclusion if he does end up moving.

Well obviously, and in most other walks of life a little personal egoism works well; but not when you are trying to manage the emotional health of countless jumpy football fans.

When it comes to transfers, I much prefer to be a pragmatist than an emotionally charged "jumpy football fan". Maybe I'm in the minority?

That's not an answer to my question. If the club is to say things publicly and they don't happen' date=' then they will get criticised. As would any club / business etc. But you seem to suggest they shouldn't be for it?[/quote']

 

I'm not really too bothered that the club said what they hoped to happen and it didn't come off. Happens all the time in all sorts of walks of life. That my hopes and expectations were built up to be dashed by Spurs, while disappointing, is not hugely important in my life and as said, not really an uncommon occurence. **** happens all the time, and I've certainly got a lot more **** on my plate than who Toby decides to sign for, and that the club's initial positive words and thoughts have come to nothing. OK, maybe I am being harsh and seeing this just through my eyes, but I didn't realise that so many people found this the such an important thing in their lives.

He's injury prone anyway and Jose just made him look good like he did Lovren the season before

We found Lovren who played well for us.

We found alderweireld who played we for us.

The mysterious black box will have chosen someone else for us. (back in for Van Dijk?)

We found Lovren who played well for us.

We found alderweireld who played we for us.

The mysterious black box will have chosen someone else for us. (back in for Van Dijk?)

Let's hope it doesn't find another Forren.

after following Saints for nearly 50 years it has always been the way that our better players leave. Even after all these years it is hard to bear and our position in the food chain is below Spurs. Therefore we as Saints fans have to get used to our better players leaving.

The club cannot control what Toby does. The club can control the messages they give to the fans. They said - as recently as Monday (the day he apparently had the first part of his medical at Spurs) - that they believed he wanted to join.

 

As a fan I of course understand the reasons why he would want to join Spurs. Location, money, better team etc. - all fair and valid reasons. No need to be upset about that. What I don't like is when my club start to give public messages about no player being sold until we have a new Manager and then 48hrs later Rickie Lambert sold when we have no Manager, when they say they are confident that Clyne will sign a new deal and then he doesn't, and when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs.

 

All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

I am not picking apart what you said, as i agree... but to take stock with what the club has said over the last few weeks....

Clyne will sign a new contract at Saints... result he didn't

Toby will join saints result he didn't

Morgan will leave this summer result he hasn't (at the time of writing)

Is there a trend here?

I'm not really too bothered that the club said what they hoped to happen and it didn't come off. Happens all the time in all sorts of walks of life. That my hopes and expectations were built up to be dashed by Spurs, while disappointing, is not hugely important in my life and as said, not really an uncommon occurence. **** happens all the time, and I've certainly got a lot more **** on my plate than who Toby decides to sign for, and that the club's initial positive words and thoughts have come to nothing. OK, maybe I am being harsh and seeing this just through my eyes, but I didn't realise that so many people found this the such an important thing in their lives.

The club didn't talk about hopes - they talked fairly black and white about the situation. I don't think this was a cursory 'we'd like to sign Toby', it was very much a 'we believe he wants to join us and we think we're favourites to'.

And of course **** happens, and of course we aim to achieve things and we don't. And whether or not Toby signs isn't significant in my life either, but as we all want Saints to do well when the club talk about things we look at the tone of the message and want to understand whether or not its an expectation. There was far too much noise coming out of the club around Toby to make me think the club believed anything other than they were favourites to sign him. So when it goes tits up I think the club are worthy of criticism - or at least a question being asked of: What happened?

I don't just blindly think 'ok, whatever' because clearly something went wrong somewhere.

Let's hope it doesn't find another Forren.

Yep, reboot the mutha before clicking search

What is really odd about all this .... is that it appears the contracts regarding TA have been amateur and vague it would seem. Surely if he was loaned to us , that would have happened within an air-tight legal framework and the terms for the end of the loan would have been black and white. Its incredible that something so cut and dry has got so murky. From a purely footballing point of view I would rather see him stay ( although he does seem prone to injury ) , but its not the end of the world if he goes... but from an admin point of view , its chaotic and embarrassing really....

The club didn't talk about hopes - they talked fairly black and white about the situation. I don't think this was a cursory 'we'd like to sign Toby', it was very much a 'we believe he wants to join us and we think we're favourites to'.

 

And of course **** happens, and of course we aim to achieve things and we don't. And whether or not Toby signs isn't significant in my life either, but as we all want Saints to do well when the club talk about things we look at the tone of the message and want to understand whether or not its an expectation. There was far too much noise coming out of the club around Toby to make me think the club believed anything other than they were favourites to sign him. So when it goes tits up I think the club are worthy of criticism - or at least a question being asked of: What happened?

 

I don't just blindly think 'ok, whatever' because clearly something went wrong somewhere.

What happened? The player decided that his future would be better suited elsewhere. I think that's fairly obvious isn't it. The club might well have been hugely confident in signing him and made noises to that affect. They may well have taken the player's words as a sign that he was coming back here. But it's a dog eat dog world, and we got eaten by a bigger dog. Let me ask a question - if he were to sign for Chelsea, would you honestly think the same as you do now or would you think "oh well, it's Chelsea and we had no chance when they came up to the plate"?

Quite worrying that some people can't accept the club messed up.

Everyone ****s up its human nature. But to defend the mess up and pretend it isn't one is a bit deluded.

The club has been run great and we all have faith in them. To suggest they messed up doesn't mean people have it in for them. They made a mistake which means we lost a good player. We move on.

after following Saints for nearly 50 years it has always been the way that our better players leave. Even after all these years it is hard to bear and our position in the food chain is below Spurs. Therefore we as Saints fans have to get used to our better players leaving.

I am finding this harder and harder to bare as I grow older I have to admit. I have accepted it as you and fellow supporters have over the years but priorities in life change. I have to admit I am struggling... really struggling to see what the point of all this is any more.

Quite worrying that some people can't accept the club messed up.

Everyone ****s up its human nature. But to defend the mess up and pretend it isn't one is a bit deluded.

 

The club has been run great and we all have faith in them. To suggest they messed up doesn't mean people have it in for them. They made a mistake which means we lost a good player. We move on.

Are you David Bence?

Quite worrying that some people can't accept the club messed up.

Everyone ****s up its human nature. But to defend the mess up and pretend it isn't one is a bit deluded.

 

The club has been run great and we all have faith in them. To suggest they messed up doesn't mean people have it in for them. They made a mistake which means we lost a good player. We move on.

Can you explain their mistake in full?

I am not picking apart what you said, as i agree... but to take stock with what the club has said over the last few weeks....

 

 

Clyne will sign a new contract at Saints... result he didn't

Toby will join saints result he didn't

Morgan will leave this summer result he hasn't (at the time of writing)

 

Is there a trend here?

I don't believe they said that Clyne would sign a new contract. They said they were hopeful that he would.

They said that the player said he wanted to sign and that we wanted him. They didn't say he would sign.

The summer has just started, come back when it is over if he hasn't moved then.

Is there a trend here? Yes it is called negativity towards the Board. It is also called bending the facts to suit your own agenda.

And has Toby actually signed for Spurs yet???

What happened? The player decided that his future would be better suited elsewhere. I think that's fairly obvious isn't it. The club might well have been hugely confident in signing him and made noises to that affect. They may well have taken the player's words as a sign that he was coming back here. But it's a dog eat dog world, and we got eaten by a bigger dog. Let me ask a question - if he were to sign for Chelsea, would you honestly think the same as you do now or would you think "oh well, it's Chelsea and we had no chance when they came up to the plate"?

I'd think the same no matter who he signed for - if the club are going to communicate as they have about him signing then they set expectations - unless we take the default that any communication from the club is rubbish. But I'd prefer not to think that way and think we have a bit more nous as a club.

The only exception would be if a club came in for him at the last minute. But I believe that Spurs were said to be interested in him in May, therefore I don't think they were a last minute deal type thing.

Quite worrying that some people can't accept the club messed up.

Everyone ****s up its human nature. But to defend the mess up and pretend it isn't one is a bit deluded.

 

The club has been run great and we all have faith in them. To suggest they messed up doesn't mean people have it in for them. They made a mistake which means we lost a good player. We move on.

if the club has made a mistake, can you let me know what it is? The only mistake I can see is what people are assuming when they have no real evidence.

Wasn't planning on using my first post on this saga of a thread, but not sure so much of the criticism of the club is justified. The way I see it is that Madrid have been the ones causing all the problems in this case - had they simply paid us the 1.5m buy out clause at the start then it should have gone to an open market and Saints and Spurs could have bid whatever they wanted for the player.

An example of how things may have unfolded...

I would have thought we would have let Madrid know relatively early on that we wanted Toby for the original amount of 6.8m. At that point Madrid would have said they would activate their buy back clause and we would have to wait for payment until we put in an improved offer *****il we were paid, the original agreement would still be in effect so why pay more?).

Madrid however - perhaps not having the money needed to pay us - seemingly already started negotiations with Spurs and only paid us the 1.5m once a deal had been agreed (at least in principal). By this point though the deadline had passed and so we would believe that legally, the original agreement of 6.8m should stand.

Madrid and Spurs push ahead with the deal anyway and we are forced to make the legal threat to hold it up. The problem comes when Madrid say the end of the loan period signified the end of the original agreement for us to pay 6.8m. The problem here is that if that is the case we would have had no chance to put in an improved bid before the end of this period as we had not been paid the buy back clause by Madrid (and until this happened we would believe the original agreement was still in effect) and after this date a deal with Spurs had already been made.

Once it became clear that the Spurs deal was going to go through regardless of any legal wranglings with Madrid we put in an improved bid - the thought being we want the player more than any compensation we would have got from Madrid after the legal stuff was resolved.

With the Spurs deal too far along we will miss out on the player and will have to make do with some form of compensation. The stupid thing being that with our improved offer Madrid would have got more money and so it is a case of them cutting off their nose to spite their face.

In terms of Toby's personal preference, I honestly believe he was happy to go to either club as long as he gets to play (that is why he left Madrid in the first place after all).

Mostly conjecture on my part but really it seems that we were well within our rights to believe the original deal would be in place until we were paid the release clause and Madrid deliberately witheld this payment until a deal with Spurs was already made preventing us from putting in an improved bid until it was too late.

Just my opinion from what i've heard so far.

What is really odd about all this .... is that it appears the contracts regarding TA have been amateur and vague it would seem. Surely if he was loaned to us , that would have happened within an air-tight legal framework and the terms for the end of the loan would have been black and white. Its incredible that something so cut and dry has got so murky. From a purely footballing point of view I would rather see him stay ( although he does seem prone to injury ) , but its not the end of the world if he goes... but from an admin point of view , its chaotic and embarrassing really....

What is really odd about this is that a bunch of people with no idea of what has happened behind the scenes have made up what they think has happened based on their own agendas and spent 57 pages bullsh*tting away like crazy when the sun is shining and they could be outside enjoying it.

Spurs announcement is at 10am apparently...

I am finding this harder and harder to bare as I grow older I have to admit. I have accepted it as you and fellow supporters have over the years but priorities in life change. I have to admit I am struggling... really struggling to see what the point of all this is any more.

I'm afraid to say that I wholly agree with this. I often say that while I love Saints, I hate football. The PL is having an ever larger divide between them and us, and those clubs in the "us" really have no chance of winning the league. If you can never win the league, nor what, finish top 4 for Champions League, what really is the point of taking part in the competition?

Maybe that is why I look at the Toby non-signing much more pragmatically. Everyone keeps on saying that the PL is the best in the world - to me it's not. It might be better than the top leagues in other countries, who have an even more limited number of teams challenging for the top, but the Championship offers a better and more even competition.

NewsNow is very quiet today, was flooding in with news of Toby yesterday

I don't just blindly think 'ok' date=' whatever' because clearly something went wrong somewhere.[/quote']

 

I think even the most pragmatic of people will be curious as to what went "wrong". Just because some people don't get as animated about it as others doesn't mean they aren't interested in finding out what occurred, in due course.

Wasn't planning on using my first post on this saga of a thread, but not sure so much of the criticism of the club is justified. The way I see it is that Madrid have been the ones causing all the problems in this case - had they simply paid us the 1.5m buy out clause at the start then it should have gone to an open market and Saints and Spurs could have bid whatever they wanted for the player.

 

An example of how things may have unfolded...

 

I would have thought we would have let Madrid know relatively early on that we wanted Toby for the original amount of 6.8m. At that point Madrid would have said they would activate their buy back clause and we would have to wait for payment until we put in an improved offer *****il we were paid, the original agreement would still be in effect so why pay more?).

 

Madrid however - perhaps not having the money needed to pay us - seemingly already started negotiations with Spurs and only paid us the 1.5m once a deal had been agreed (at least in principal). By this point though the deadline had passed and so we would believe that legally, the original agreement of 6.8m should stand.

 

Madrid and Spurs push ahead with the deal anyway and we are forced to make the legal threat to hold it up. The problem comes when Madrid say the end of the loan period signified the end of the original agreement for us to pay 6.8m. The problem here is that if that is the case we would have had no chance to put in an improved bid before the end of this period as we had not been paid the buy back clause by Madrid (and until this happened we would believe the original agreement was still in effect) and after this date a deal with Spurs had already been made.

 

Once it became clear that the Spurs deal was going to go through regardless of any legal wranglings with Madrid we put in an improved bid - the thought being we want the player more than any compensation we would have got from Madrid after the legal stuff was resolved.

 

With the Spurs deal too far along we will miss out on the player and will have to make do with some form of compensation. The stupid thing being that with our improved offer Madrid would have got more money and so it is a case of them cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

In terms of Toby's personal preference, I honestly believe he was happy to go to either club as long as he gets to play (that is why he left Madrid in the first place after all).

 

Mostly conjecture on my part but really it seems that we were well within our rights to believe the original deal would be in place until we were paid the release clause and Madrid deliberately witheld this payment until a deal with Spurs was already made preventing us from putting in an improved bid until it was too late.

 

Just my opinion from what i've heard so far.

I still wonder about the timing of the departure of the CFO by mutual consent. I dont really expect somebody to leave such a job for no good reason

Spurs announcement is at 10am apparently...

Source?

I think even the most pragmatic of people will be curious as to what went "wrong". Just because some people don't get as animated about it as others doesn't mean they aren't interested in finding out what occurred, in due course.

It will come out in the wash, however crying over assumptions now is a bit silly.

If Toby does sign for Spurs it will be because that is where he wants to play his football. Why fret? Life goes on.

Source?

svenclaes - said at 9:40 ''20 mins to go...''

I think even the most pragmatic of people will be curious as to what went "wrong". Just because some people don't get as animated about it as others doesn't mean they aren't interested in finding out what occurred, in due course.

Whether you get animated about it or not, asking the question is because you believe something went wrong and the club could be criticised for it.

I'll wait until Spurs announce the deal before I ask what all this 'legal right' ******** was about - as we either messed up believing we were entitled or backed down like a little *****. The alternative of course is that we pursue legal action which would be a good laugh.

Wasn't planning on using my first post on this saga of a thread, but not sure so much of the criticism of the club is justified. The way I see it is that Madrid have been the ones causing all the problems in this case - had they simply paid us the 1.5m buy out clause at the start then it should have gone to an open market and Saints and Spurs could have bid whatever they wanted for the player.

 

An example of how things may have unfolded...

 

I would have thought we would have let Madrid know relatively early on that we wanted Toby for the original amount of 6.8m. At that point Madrid would have said they would activate their buy back clause and we would have to wait for payment until we put in an improved offer *****il we were paid, the original agreement would still be in effect so why pay more?).

 

Madrid however - perhaps not having the money needed to pay us - seemingly already started negotiations with Spurs and only paid us the 1.5m once a deal had been agreed (at least in principal). By this point though the deadline had passed and so we would believe that legally, the original agreement of 6.8m should stand.

 

Madrid and Spurs push ahead with the deal anyway and we are forced to make the legal threat to hold it up. The problem comes when Madrid say the end of the loan period signified the end of the original agreement for us to pay 6.8m. The problem here is that if that is the case we would have had no chance to put in an improved bid before the end of this period as we had not been paid the buy back clause by Madrid (and until this happened we would believe the original agreement was still in effect) and after this date a deal with Spurs had already been made.

 

Once it became clear that the Spurs deal was going to go through regardless of any legal wranglings with Madrid we put in an improved bid - the thought being we want the player more than any compensation we would have got from Madrid after the legal stuff was resolved.

 

With the Spurs deal too far along we will miss out on the player and will have to make do with some form of compensation. The stupid thing being that with our improved offer Madrid would have got more money and so it is a case of them cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

In terms of Toby's personal preference, I honestly believe he was happy to go to either club as long as he gets to play (that is why he left Madrid in the first place after all).

 

Mostly conjecture on my part but really it seems that we were well within our rights to believe the original deal would be in place until we were paid the release clause and Madrid deliberately witheld this payment until a deal with Spurs was already made preventing us from putting in an improved bid until it was too late.

 

Just my opinion from what i've heard so far.

Cheers Les. Pretty much matches my hunch of how things panned out. First time for everything.

It will come out in the wash, however crying over assumptions now is a bit silly.

For what it's worth, I doubt it will. I can't see any party putting the actual wording of each clause out in the public domain, followed by their own individual interpretations of what the clauses meant in practice and an accompanying time-line of events and conversations attached. You're going to be stuck with speculation and a mini-summer meltdown I'm afraid.

Only thing that might happen is if Saints really are ****ed off with the whole situation, then we might leak some stuff, but that's only going to tell you so much.