EU referendum

Speaking of being "spectacularly uniformed" if some on here seek to employ little Norway as evidence of how the UK might do outside of the UK then we really should take a closer look at their situation before drawing a whole set of conclusions that are almost certainly false:

• Norway (a EEA member state) has never been in the EU. So there is no meaningful basis for comparison as to how their economy might have performed were they EU members.

• Norwegian prosperity depends largely upon North Sea oil and gas extraction coupled with the form of guaranteed access they have to the EU Single Market area. Should we vote to leave the EU then (regardless of what Michael Grove might claim) there is no guarantee whatsoever as to the terms of any trade deal we might agree with the EU.

• Oil and gas extraction has a more significant impact on the Norwegian economy than it does on ours because they have a population of just 5 million while the UK has a population of some 64 million. Norway also appears to have been far more prudent than we have in how it chooses to invest these fossil-fuel income streams.

• In order to secure that Single Market access Norway has to contribute to certain EU funds, comply with EU regulations AND accept the free movement of people principle that is implicit in the Single Market concept. As they have little or no influence over EU28 decision making they have in effect volunteered themselves for a 'taxation without representation' type situation.

• The record shows that Norway (and Switzerland by the way) accept rather more immigrants from the EU than we here in the UK do - measured on a per capita basis of course. I will repeat this last point for emphasis - MORE EU IMMIGRATION than the UK.

Was watching Sky News yesterday morning and they had a last on that said Lidl and Ali would leave the UK I'd we left the EU.

I was almost in tears of laughter.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

http://www.brugesgroup.com/component/content/article/91-training/1165-the-british-option?Itemid=101

Norway, Switzerland and everything else that might arise post a Brexit, covered in a short precis.

Again, there is no gaurantee as to which form of trade deal we may reach with the EU post Brexit. Those who whom otherwise - be they Michael Grove or the hard right Bruges Group - are telling lies.

Who is this Michael Grove bloke?

I agree that there is no guarantee as to which form of trade deal we may reach with the EU post Brexit. Therefore any forecasts from the Treasury are based on pure guesswork. Feel free to discuss which parts of that article you disagree with and why.

Is Dr, Ruth Lea of the hard right? She used to work for the Treasury, don't you know? And several other well-respected organisations. Or is it that you judge the opinion based on where it is published, rather than who voices it?

I am voting Brexit.

I understand the fear of the the unknown, but the bottom line is that Britain's destiny is back in its own hands then.

Given that you live in Austria I am surprised that you care. Will you get kicked up if we leave Europe?

Speaking of being "spectacularly uniformed" if some on here seek to employ little Norway as evidence of how the UK might do outside of the UK then we really should take a closer look at their situation before drawing a whole set of conclusions that are almost certainly false:

 

 

• Norway (a EEA member state) has never been in the EU. So there is no meaningful basis for comparison as to how their economy might have performed were they EU members.

 

• Norwegian prosperity depends largely upon North Sea oil and gas extraction coupled with the form of guaranteed access they have to the EU Single Market area. Should we vote to leave the EU then (regardless of what Michael Grove might claim) there is no guarantee whatsoever as to the terms of any trade deal we might agree with the EU.

 

• Oil and gas extraction has a more significant impact on the Norwegian economy than it does on ours because they have a population of just 5 million while the UK has a population of some 64 million. Norway also appears to have been far more prudent than we have in how it chooses to invest these fossil-fuel income streams.

 

• In order to secure that Single Market access Norway has to contribute to certain EU funds, comply with EU regulations AND accept the free movement of people principle that is implicit in the Single Market concept. As they have little or no influence over EU28 decision making they have in effect volunteered themselves for a 'taxation without representation' type situation.

 

• The record shows that Norway (and Switzerland by the way) accept rather more immigrants from the EU than we here in the UK do - measured on a per capita basis of course. I will repeat this last point for emphasis - MORE EU IMMIGRATION than the UK.

More immigration than the UK or a higher percentage of the Norwegian population? We have more immigrants working than the population of Norway.

A question for anyone but primarily for those who want to leave ...

The argument goes that leaving will mean we will no longer be governed by Europeans who were never elected and democracy will be returned to the British people (is this a fair summary)

Given the above, in what way is the EU undemocratic - we all have a vote for MEPs in the European Parliament (EP) , the EP then elect the European Commission and the European Council are the Heads of State/Government and the President of the Commission.

Whereas in the UK we have an imperfect first-past-the-post system for the Commons and we have a House of Lords, many of whom have not been elected, there are 92 hereditary peers and most of these cannot be women, there are 26 Bishops ... you get the drift.

Does this mean Brexiteers want a wholesale reform of our political system - and if not, why not?

When those who want to leave say it is because they want things to be more democratic, can they define this more clearly?

Mordants blatant lies and misrepresentation of the truth was breath-taking. For UKIP, the right of the Tory party and the right wing tabloid press this referendum has only ever really been about one thing, immigration. They have lost the economic argument, the un-democratic argument is flawed when we have first past the post , an unelected second chamber, and an unelected Head of State, all they have is immigration and leaving the EU will not change that significantly. While I am sure that the vast majority of leave supporters are not outright racists or fascists it is these attitudes and ideology that leave is founded on. The irony of Bumbling Boris’s analogy with past dictators, despots, empires and tyrants wanting to create a centralised Europe fails to acknowledge they were all essentially Right Wing extremists.

Mordants blatant lies and misrepresentation of the truth was breath-taking. For UKIP, the right of the Tory party and the right wing tabloid press this referendum has only ever really been about one thing, immigration. They have lost the economic argument, the un-democratic argument is flawed when we have first past the post , an unelected second chamber, and an unelected Head of State, all they have is immigration and leaving the EU will not change that significantly. While I am sure that the vast majority of leave supporters are not outright racists or fascists it is these attitudes and ideology that leave is founded on. The irony of Bumbling Boris’s analogy with past dictators, despots, empires and tyrants wanting to create a centralised Europe fails to acknowledge they were all essentially Right Wing extremists.

Hold up so because in your view UK democracy is undemocratic, that means it is fine to accept the EU system which is even worse? It is your argument that is flawed.

Hold up so because in your view UK democracy is undemocratic, that means it is fine to accept the EU system which is even worse? It is your argument that is flawed.

I was not making a judgemet on which system is worse. It is Brexit who claim that the EU to be undemocratic and one of the resosn for leaving. The system they champion is in my view no more democratic and therefore it is a non argument. Ironically the Brexit Tories and right wing press were happy to campaign to retain our un-democratic FPP system a few years ago.

Mordants blatant lies and misrepresentation of the truth was breath-taking. For UKIP, the right of the Tory party and the right wing tabloid press this referendum has only ever really been about one thing, immigration. They have lost the economic argument, the un-democratic argument is flawed when we have first past the post , an unelected second chamber, and an unelected Head of State, all they have is immigration and leaving the EU will not change that significantly. While I am sure that the vast majority of leave supporters are not outright racists or fascists it is these attitudes and ideology that leave is founded on. The irony of Bumbling Boris’s analogy with past dictators, despots, empires and tyrants wanting to create a centralised Europe fails to acknowledge they were all essentially Right Wing extremists.

You miss the point by citing first past the post as being your counter-argument to the EU's undemocratic system of voting. The European Elections for our MEPs is by proportional representation and of course we elected a majority of Euro-sceptic MEPs to represent us. But having them represented in the EU is a comparison between the voice of an MP speaking on behalf of their constituents and the British MEPs being just 8% of the whole EU entity.

Regarding the democratic (or lack of) aspects, then it's a shame that you must have missed the Paxman documentary and I urge you to view it on I-Player. Otherwise, here is some reading matter debating it. I realise that some on your side are dismissive of articles from sources you deem not to be in line with your own political leanings, but then again, the leaders of the debate on both sides are Conservative, so that cannot be very palatable to you.

http://www.brugesgroup.com/images/pdfs/theeuthreattodemocracyandliberty.pdf

Regarding whether a politician has lied or not, then a simple question to you; which is more serious, allegations of lies from a junior minister, or lies from a Prime Minister and a Chancellor of the Exchequer?

You miss the point by citing first past the post as being your counter-argument to the EU's undemocratic system of voting. The European Elections for our MEPs is by proportional representation and of course we elected a majority of Euro-sceptic MEPs to represent us. But having them represented in the EU is a comparison between the voice of an MP speaking on behalf of their constituents and the British MEPs being just 8% of the whole EU entity.

Im not sure what your point is. British MEPs have a slice of power in the EU just as a councillor has on a council or an MP has in Parliament. As Moonraker says the EU is at least as democratic as the British system.

I was not making a judgemet on which system is worse. It is Brexit who claim that the EU to be undemocratic and one of the resosn for leaving. The system they champion is in my view no more democratic and therefore it is a non argument. Ironically the Brexit Tories and right wing press were happy to campaign to retain our un-democratic FPP system a few years ago.

Nonsense. First past the post is certainly not perfect and personally I would prefer a different system but it absolutely is more democratic than the EU. To pretend otherwise does your argument no favours at all.

You miss the point by citing first past the post as being your counter-argument to the EU's undemocratic system of voting. The European Elections for our MEPs is by proportional representation and of course we elected a majority of Euro-sceptic MEPs to represent us. But having them represented in the EU is a comparison between the voice of an MP speaking on behalf of their constituents and the British MEPs being just 8% of the whole EU entity.

 

Regarding the democratic (or lack of) aspects, then it's a shame that you must have missed the Paxman documentary and I urge you to view it on I-Player. Otherwise, here is some reading matter debating it. I realise that some on your side are dismissive of articles from sources you deem not to be in line with your own political leanings, but then again, the leaders of the debate on both sides are Conservative, so that cannot be very palatable to you.

 

http://www.brugesgroup.com/images/pdfs/theeuthreattodemocracyandliberty.pdf

 

Regarding whether a politician has lied or not, then a simple question to you; which is more serious, allegations of lies from a junior minister, or lies from a Prime Minister and a Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Interesting opinion piece by a declared leaver for a primarily anti EU think tank almost exclusively patronised by Eurosceptic Tories plus a few notable non-Tories. Somewhat surprisingly it finds against the EU. There are some very good selective quotes, interesting interpretations of history and absolutely no commentary of the lack of democracy in our own Parliament. He states

“For instance, despite being one of the biggest EU member states, Britain’s decision making power within EU institutions like the Council of the European Union (representing national governments) and the European Parliament, is extremely limited. British representatives only control around 8% of the total votes” or my dads bigger than yours.

We have the same level of representation and influence as those arch EU Federalists Germany, France, Spain and Italy. Its not unlike the UK Parliament where constituency size varies enormously.

As to the size of the anti EU vote in the EU elections, I would argue there were 2 key reasons for this: one it was a PR system and therefore much fairer; 2 The anti EU vote was more motivated to vote and I must hand it to the UKIP campaign for mobilising its support.

No lies are acceptable, and I do not support any party or politician, my opionon and referendum intetions are based on my own analysis of the evidence, quality of comment, and lastly and of least importance I think the leave ‘frontmen’ are far more dishonest than ,sot of the remainians.

PS. Norman Tebbit is I note president of the Bruges Group, the man who recommended getting on our bikes to find work, unless you are a EU national then bloody stay where you belong!

Nonsense. First past the post is certainly not perfect and personally I would prefer a different system but it absolutely is more democratic than the EU. To pretend otherwise does your argument no favours at all.

What about the upper house and head of state, we have never ever voted for those.

Even if we accept that the current British system was undemocratic, we could lobby Parliament and put political pressure on through petitions etc to get it changed. History shows that the government will often listen to the people. I would argue we would have vastly more of a chance of getting the change we want at a national level than we ever would within the EU. When does the EU ever listen to the will of the people?

What about the upper house and head of state, we have never ever voted for those.

What influence does the Queen have on any laws in this country?

Nonsense. First past the post is certainly not perfect and personally I would prefer a different system but it absolutely is more democratic than the EU. To pretend otherwise does your argument no favours at all.

First past the post ensuring government of the majority by the minority; unelected Head of Government; unelected Head of State; unelected mayors in most cities, unelected House of Lords. I prefer the EU system.

Even if we accept that the current British system was undemocratic, we could lobby Parliament and put political pressure on through petitions etc to get it changed. History shows that the government will often listen to the people. I would argue we would have vastly more of a chance of getting the change we want at a national level than we ever would within the EU. When does the EU ever listen to the will of the people?

Ask the Greeks.

Ask the Greeks.

Whats anal sex got to do with it?

What influence does the Queen have on any laws in this country?

None, not the point she is Head of State. Paradoxically I am a constitutional monarchist as I cannot abide the idea of some has been politician as President and the head of state in a parliamentary democracy should I believe be above politics so a monarchy works for me.

Even if we accept that the current British system was undemocratic, we could lobby Parliament and put political pressure on through petitions etc to get it changed. History shows that the government will often listen to the people. I would argue we would have vastly more of a chance of getting the change we want at a national level than we ever would within the EU. When does the EU ever listen to the will of the people?

Why cant you do this with the EU Parliament? The problem is lack of EU wide political will not the institutions. It is the very fragmentation of the EU Parliament that I beleive will ensure we do not end up as a USE or admit any new members unless they meet the requried standards.

Why cant you do this with the EU Parliament? The problem is lack of EU wide political will not the institutions. It is the very fragmentation of the EU Parliament that I beleive will ensure we do not end up as a USE or admit any new members unless they meet the requried standards.

Equally first past the post is in the interests of the two main parties. They wont change it because it would be the end of their duopoly if they did.

There might be a percentage that are looking at the academic arguments and spurious predictions of both sides and may or may not vote, but in my view the bulk of the leave voters just don't like the EU and it's effect on this country and want out. It doesn't matter what either side put out because the leave voters aren't listening and are going to vote leave whatever the remain campaign say.

I have just heard a broadcast from the Vote Leave campaign on the wireless.

This is available here ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07d33jx

This broadcast includes the statement 'Vote Leave to stop British tax payers from bailing out countries like Greece' found at 1 min 06 seconds in.

However, the conclusions adopted by the European Council at their meeting of 19 February 2016 state exactly the opposite.

This document (link below) states in Annex 1, Section A, paragraph 3 (top of page 14)

3. Emergency and crisis measures designed to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area will not entail budgetary responsibility for Member States whose currency is not the euro, or, as the case may be, for those not participating in the banking union.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/euco-conclusions_pdf/

Can anyone explain why Vote Leave would say something that appears to be, at best, misleading?

Equally first past the post is in the interests of the two main parties. They wont change it because it would be the end of their duopoly if they did.

We had a referendum and the majority wanted the first past the post. It mostly means no coalitions, thank goodness. The last one was a mess.

I have just heard a broadcast from the Vote Leave campaign on the wireless.

 

This is available here ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07d33jx

 

This broadcast includes the statement 'Vote Leave to stop British tax payers from bailing out countries like Greece' found at 1 min 06 seconds in.

 

However, the conclusions adopted by the European Council at their meeting of 19 February 2016 state exactly the opposite.

 

This document (link below) states in Annex 1, Section A, paragraph 3 (top of page 14)

 

3. Emergency and crisis measures designed to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area will not entail budgetary responsibility for Member States whose currency is not the euro, or, as the case may be, for those not participating in the banking union.

 

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/euco-conclusions_pdf/

 

Can anyone explain why Vote Leave would say something that appears to be, at best, misleading?

I think there is another fund which we have to contribute to which encompasses the whole EU. This I believe was the situation in the Greek crisis. The seventeen Eurozone countries have the ESM with 80b euros. ESM cover new loans the EFSF and EFSM of which we are members continue to contribute to already agreed loans to Greece, Portugal and Ireland.

We had a referendum and the majority wanted the first past the post. It mostly means no coalitions, thank goodness. The last one was a mess.

What exactly about the coalition was a mess, when say compared to the present government?

We had a referendum and the majority wanted the first past the post. It mostly means no coalitions, thank goodness. The last one was a mess.

The option was STV not proportional representation. An option carefully chosen to be little understood and guaranteed to be rejected.

From 2014-2020, the ESF and European Regional Development Fund are investing around €11.8 billion across the UK to reduce inactivity among young people and the long-term unemployed and to improve training and skills and invest in education and lifelong learning. This equates to £38m a week, will a post Brexit UK still fund these vital initiatives? To date all I have heard is vague statements that the money saved from EU contributions will be spent on the NHS.

From 2014-2020, the ESF and European Regional Development Fund are investing around €11.8 billion across the UK to reduce inactivity among young people and the long-term unemployed and to improve training and skills and invest in education and lifelong learning. This equates to £38m a week, will a post Brexit UK still fund these vital initiatives? To date all I have heard is vague statements that the money saved from EU contributions will be spent on the NHS.

A deafening silence when it comes to giving it back to the people to whom it belongs. So which will it be, a reduction in the rate of tax or an increase in the threshold?

why does Boris Johnson impress you so?

From 2014-2020, the ESF and European Regional Development Fund are investing around €11.8 billion across the UK to reduce inactivity among young people and the long-term unemployed and to improve training and skills and invest in education and lifelong learning. This equates to £38m a week, will a post Brexit UK still fund these vital initiatives? To date all I have heard is vague statements that the money saved from EU contributions will be spent on the NHS.

Here speaks another person who hasn't realised that for the past 40 years the population of the UK have been continuously bribed by the EU with their own money, with no say how it's spent. At long last we have a say.

Interesting opinion piece by a declared leaver for a primarily anti EU think tank almost exclusively patronised by Eurosceptic Tories plus a few notable non-Tories. Somewhat surprisingly it finds against the EU. There are some very good selective quotes, interesting interpretations of history and absolutely no commentary of the lack of democracy in our own Parliament. He states

“For instance, despite being one of the biggest EU member states, Britain’s decision making power within EU institutions like the Council of the European Union (representing national governments) and the European Parliament, is extremely limited. British representatives only control around 8% of the total votes” or my dads bigger than yours.

We have the same level of representation and influence as those arch EU Federalists Germany, France, Spain and Italy. Its not unlike the UK Parliament where constituency size varies enormously.

As to the size of the anti EU vote in the EU elections, I would argue there were 2 key reasons for this: one it was a PR system and therefore much fairer; 2 The anti EU vote was more motivated to vote and I must hand it to the UKIP campaign for mobilising its support.

No lies are acceptable, and I do not support any party or politician, my opionon and referendum intetions are based on my own analysis of the evidence, quality of comment, and lastly and of least importance I think the leave ‘frontmen’ are far more dishonest than ,sot of the remainians.

PS. Norman Tebbit is I note president of the Bruges Group, the man who recommended getting on our bikes to find work, unless you are a EU national then bloody stay where you belong!

Quel Surprise! The Bruges group is the Euro-sceptic wing of the Conservative Party and is therefore the obvious place to look for details of research and articles critical of the EU. Much as the BBC, the Guardian, big business, large accountancy groups, recipients of financial benevolence from the EU and others with a vested interest are cheerleaders for the Remain campaign. along with their own share of MPs.

I realise that if the source of the arguments does not suit the Remain agenda, it will be dismissed, much as we Brexiteers will naturally be cynical of the propaganda put out by the Remain camp. So what's new in politics?

Feel free to challenge any of the historical references with your own version of them and explain why the article being critical of the lack of democracy in the EU would choose to do down our own system.

Your figures regarding the voting powers of the MEPs are wrong. As far as I can see, Germany has 96 MEPs, France 74, we and Italy have 73 and Spain has only 54. But if I understand it correctly, if Turkey joins, they will have more MEPs than us, so could outvote us by themselves. Perhaps the number of MEPs should be allocated on the basis of contribution to funding the enterprise.

Regarding the European elections, then UKIP would have been the biggest party regardless of whether the system was first past the post or proportional representation, so disillusioned were the electorate with the EU. If they had not won such a victory, then I very much doubt that Dave would have been forced to offer a referendum in the last election

I think that you are wearing your blinkers if you believe that the Brexit campaign are more guilty of telling porkies than the Remainians. Dave and George are particularly economical with the truth and as a result, Dave is less trusted than anybody in the Brexit camp.

If you're going to quote Norman Tebbit, then please do try and get some sort of accurate context to it. What he said was

I grew up in the 30s with an unemployed father. He didn't riot; he got on his bike and looked for work and he kept looking 'til he found it.

Yes this is indeed very impressive - in a somewhat sinister 'dark side of the force' kind of way

No names, no pack drill of course, but have you ever noticed how with some people the older they get the more right wing and reactionary they become?

Just saying ...

What exactly about the coalition was a mess, when say compared to the present government?

The voters thought it was a mess. The Liberals losing most of their MPs and the Conservatives voted into power with a lying liberal Prime Minister who apart from the referendum is reneging on their manifesto.

I must commend the outstanding work the 'Vote Leave' campaign have performed with their latest propaganda broadcast just shown across our TV channels.

First off they blazenly repeat the proven lie that the UK sends the EU "£350m" a week - a claim that even Wes Tender does not bother to defend anymore! To follow up this tasty little starter they then go on to imply that the UK will for some inexplicable reason have to bail out new EU entrant states that have adopted the EURO currency when any fool knows this is not the case. And then - wait for it - it seems that a absurd 80+ million foreigners are apparently hell bent on arriving here and feasting on the undoubted generosity of our welfare state.

The standard of honesty and objectivity seen in your average British Party Political Broadcast is not exactly a high one - to put it mildly. But methinks we have today witttnessed a new low.

check out these swivel-eyed loons.

[video=youtube;i-UbT0g9A8c]

Show me where I have ever defended the £350 million figure. £350 million is the gross figure before they hand us some of our own taxpayers money back to spend on projects of their choosing. Naturally as a Conservative, I know that the blessed Maggie handbagged us a rebate too.

Now let us see you defend the equally preposterous £4300 pa cost per family of a Brexit.

Show me where I have ever defended the £350 million figure. £350 million is the gross figure before they hand us some of our own taxpayers money back to spend on projects of their choosing. Naturally as a Conservative, I know that the blessed Maggie handbagged us a rebate too.

 

Now let us see you defend the equally preposterous £4300 pa cost per family of a Brexit.

Your decision to not talk to me anymore was as short lived as I predicted. But never mind Wes - consistency is overrated as a virtue don't you think

But I am pleased to see that you agree that the £350m number is a whopper.

Your decision to not talk to me anymore was as short lived as I predicted. But never mind Wes - consistency is overrated as a virtue don't you think

 

But I am pleased to see that you agree that the £350m number is a whopper.

I ask again. Show me where I defended it and then try and defend the equally ridiculous propaganda figure of the £4300

I ask again. Show me where I defended it and then try and defend the equally ridiculous propaganda figure of the £4300

How pleased I am that communication between us now been restored - this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. If you go back a couple of posts old boy you will see that I said the £350m number was so absurd even you would not defend it - you will agree that you do tend to come on here and attempt to defend even the more outlandish claims the Vote Leave campaign come up with.

If you are really so worked up about HM Treasury forcasts and how the Chancellor of the Exchequer has chosen to interpret them, then instead of pointlessly bothering me I surgest you take the matter up with those responsible directly at:

The Rt Hon George Osborne MP.

HM Treasury,

1 Horse Guards Road,

London.

SW1A 2HQ

As always - more than happy to help.

How pleased I am that communication between us now been restored - this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. If you go back a couple of posts old boy you will see that I said the £350m number was so absurd even you would not defend it - you will agree that you do tend to come on here and attempt to defend even the more outlandish claims the Vote Leave campaign come up with.

 

If you are really so worked up about HM Treasury forcasts and how the Chancellor of the Exchequer has chosen to interpret them, then instead of pointlessly bothering me I surgest you take the matter up with those responsible directly at:

 

The Rt Hon George Osborne MP.

HM Treasury,

1 Horse Guards Road,

London.

SW1A 2HQ

 

As always - more than happy to help.

Now that's a very democratic way of doing things CEC. Maybe I'll write to George. Thinking about it though I may be better off writing to the EU Commission. What's their address?

Now that's a very democratic way of doing things CEC. Maybe I'll write to George. Thinking about it though I may be better off writing to the EU Commission. What's their address?

Google is your friend my dear Goat.

I must commend the outstanding work the 'Vote Leave' campaign have performed with their latest propaganda broadcast just shown across our TV channels.

 

First off they blazenly repeat the proven lie that the UK sends the EU "£350m" a week - a claim that even Wes Tender does not bother to defend anymore! To follow up this tasty little starter they then go on to imply that the UK will for some inexplicable reason have to bail out new EU entrant states that have adopted the EURO currency when any fool knows this is not the case. And then - wait for it - it seems that a absurd 80+ million foreigners are apparently hell bent on arriving here and feasting on the undoubted generosity of our welfare state.

 

The standard of honesty and objectivity seen in your average British Party Political Broadcast is not exactly a high one - to put it mildly. But methinks we have today witttnessed a new low.

The remain campaign has to win the competition for most bull**** spouted by ****** politicians though surely? So far we have had leaving will mean World War 3, a recession, unemployment, house prices to fall, prices of other stuff to go up, wages to fall, interest rates to go up. It's all complete nonsense because the ****s who make this stuff up do not have a clue what sort of deal we will do with the EU post exit.

The funny thing is Cameron said, before his negotiations with the other EU leaders, that he would only recommend we stayed in if there was reforms. Now, after a few almost irrelivant changes he is trying to convince us that the World will end if we leave.

The funny thing is Cameron said, before his negotiations with the other EU leaders, that he would only recommend we stayed in if there was reforms. Now, after a few almost irrelivant changes he is trying to convince us that the World will end if we leave.

I think the funniest thing about the whole campaign is the number of people who bought every word that Cameron & Osborne spouted during the General Election, but who now think the two of them are the spawn of Satan.

I think the funniest thing about the whole campaign is the number of people who bought every word that Cameron & Osborne spouted during the General Election, but who now think the two of them are the spawn of Satan.

Pretty unlikely that they are the same people I would have thought.