Why Fry could make the Swiss could walk away

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I think most now accept the Swiss consortium are our last chance but there is a danger they will turn their backs on us next week. Why? Because Mark Fry is insisting they accept the deal agreed by the now discredited, never going to happen Pinnacle bid.

 

Should the Swiss be held to the same agreement drawn up and agreed by someone who never had a snowball's chance in hell of delivering? I know time is short but Fry's unrealistic demands (trying to save his own bacon after being taken in by Pinnacle) could scupper our one last chance of survival. No one likes having a gun pointed at their head.

[John B]

I think most now accept the Swiss consortium are our last chance but there is a danger they will turn their backs on us next week. Why? Because Mark Fry is insisting they accept the deal agreed by the now discredited, never going to happen Pinnacle bid.

 

Should the Swiss be held to the same agreement drawn up and agreed by someone who never had a snowball's chance in hell of delivering? I know time is short but Fry's unrealistic demands (trying to save his own bacon after being taken in by Pinnacle) could scupper our one last chance of survival. No one likes having a gun pointed at their head.

 

Where did you get that from Duncan?

 

Seems not to be in the best intest of the Creditors

[doggface]

good point Duncan, why should the Swiss accept frys terms? Surely this should be the other way round?

 

However perhaps in his defence, there is not enough time to agree a new deal with the creditors & complete?

[SFC Forever]

Seeing as how we are in deep do do it would have been far more realistic for the new bidders to make a new offer. It is not the normal way for a second bidder to have to follow suit surely. Especially as their original bid must have been lower than Pinnacles surely.

[lordswoodsaints]

Perhaps the Swiss could pay the wages,that would give them some breathing space.

[Wade Garrett]

To be honest, I think £15million is a bargain. Stadium, training ground, Jacksons Farm(?), goodwill of the supporters.

 

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. They might even get Matt on board, who knows. He did say he would support any consortium who bought the club, and he has put a bit of groundwork in these last few weeks.

[Badger]

Is the Saltz bid of the last resort still likely to be around ?

[SFC Forever]

would have thought that with time running out the onus would have been to get the vreditors to agree what was now on the table.

Problem there could be additional penalties for the club going into admin and not getting creditor clearance when bought out.

[Snowballs2]

Yet this morning Sky are still reporting that Pinnacle will complete in next few days

[Faz]

Wasn't the story back along (pre-exclusivity) that Pinnacle had offered a lower up front payment, but higher contingent payments, than the Swiss/Whacko?

 

There probably isn't a million miles of difference, and it may just be a case that time is against a full re-work of the deal. That said, if you were the Swiss wouldn't you be saying that things had changed somewhat, not least because now they will know the terms the FL have set.

Edited 27 June, 2009 by Faz
Fat Finger Syndromne

[Leslie Charteris]

Surely it would be in the interests of all parties concerned to have a good look at any new offer rather than just say "Here's a contract, sign it or shove off."

[thorpie the sinner]

I think this weekend could see Morph become a full member lol!! if we get to Thurs, it will be Salz time!

[SFC Forever]

Lordswood could have a point but how long do we have before the FL pulls the plug and says we can't play in their league?

[Rem]

Yet this morning Sky are still reporting that Pinnacle will complete in next few days

 

Haven't we heard that before (several times). It's like the boy who cried wolf, to me!

[wild-saint]

Fry is hardly going to stand in front of a camera and say " yes your right we have 7 days to get this club sold otherwise its game over so please someone offer me something / anything."

 

The price will now start to drop IMO as Fry gets desparate to do a deal. if he doesnt manage to get a sale he will get no further business from barclays / aviva in a recession. I think it will go to the wire and he will accept a lower price.

[Katalinic]

Fry is hardly going to stand in front of a camera and say " yes your right we have 7 days to get this club sold otherwise its game over so please someone offer me something / anything."

 

The price will now start to drop IMO as Fry gets desparate to do a deal. if he doesnt manage to get a sale he will get no further business from barclays / aviva in a recession. I think it will go to the wire and he will accept a lower price.

 

I agree and in retrospect it was inevitable that it would in order that a buyer can get the best deal they can. I still suspect Pinnacle have gone back to Fry to negotiate a better deal on the basis that a club with -10 points and no appeal is worth less than one with the right of appeal.

[Saint Billy]

I think most now accept the Swiss consortium are our last chance but there is a danger they will turn their backs on us next week. Why? Because Mark Fry is insisting they accept the deal agreed by the now discredited, never going to happen Pinnacle bid.

 

Should the Swiss be held to the same agreement drawn up and agreed by someone who never had a snowball's chance in hell of delivering? I know time is short but Fry's unrealistic demands (trying to save his own bacon after being taken in by Pinnacle) could scupper our one last chance of survival. No one likes having a gun pointed at their head.

 

Surely he cannot just state that he will accept less, I am sure if the swiss group are intersted there will be a certain amount of bartering on both sides, but you have to have a start point and why not start at the figure pinnacle were or are paying.

Edited 27 June, 2009 by Saint Billy
hangover

[GenevaSaint]

The price will now start to drop IMO as Fry gets desparate to do a deal. if he doesnt manage to get a sale he will get no further business from barclays / aviva in a recession. I think it will go to the wire and he will accept a lower price.

 

It's not Fry's choice to accept a lower price, that has to be approved by Aviva and Barclays. I guess he might get some direction from them later in the week if things aren't going well.....

[eelpie]

good point Duncan, why should the Swiss accept frys terms? Surely this should be the other way round?

 

However perhaps in his defence, there is not enough time to agree a new deal with the creditors & complete?

 

The day before the FL publish their fixture list is soon. Surely Fry must accept whatever is offered by anyone then - or Aviva, Barclays and all get nothing. Club dead, Fry fails.

[Legod Third Coming]

To be honest, I think £15million is a bargain. Stadium, training ground, Jacksons Farm(?), goodwill of the supporters.

 

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. They might even get Matt on board, who knows. He did say he would support any consortium who bought the club, and he has put a bit of groundwork in these last few weeks.

 

£15m for a League Two club?? Which is where we'll realistically be in 12 months.

 

Yeah, bargain... :S

[imported_slough_saint]

I think some of you are missing the point. If Fry can get more by breaking up the club, selling its assets piecemeal to repay the creditors then he must do it. His duty is to the creditors (Barclays) first and the fans second.

[Saint in Paradise]

The day before the FL publish their fixture list is soon. Surely Fry must accept whatever is offered by anyone then - or Aviva, Barclays and all get nothing. Club dead, Fry fails.

 

Sorry old chap but I think that they were published about 10 days ago.

[Legod Third Coming]

I think some of you are missing the point. If Fry can get more by breaking up the club, selling its assets piecemeal to repay the creditors then he must do it. His duty is to the creditors (Barclays) first and the fans second.

 

An administrator has NO duty to fans, not second, not anywhere. Unless the club owes us money and last time I checked it didn't owe me anything, well apart from the fecking chancers on the pitch...

[beatlesaint]

I think most now accept the Swiss consortium are our last chance but there is a danger they will turn their backs on us next week. Why? Because Mark Fry is insisting they accept the deal agreed by the now discredited, never going to happen Pinnacle bid.

 

Should the Swiss be held to the same agreement drawn up and agreed by someone who never had a snowball's chance in hell of delivering? I know time is short but Fry's unrealistic demands (trying to save his own bacon after being taken in by Pinnacle) could scupper our one last chance of survival. No one likes having a gun pointed at their head.

 

No offence Duncan because I do enjoy your posts but you do have the ability to make a drama out of a crisis sometimes dont you ?

 

If Fry was doing that then why would there have been "very detailed discussions" (in Fry's words) ? Why would the Swiss reps have flown over last Wednesday for talks that had obviously began last weekend ?

 

If the situation had been as you suggest he could have just faxed them the documents or had them sent by courier with a note "this is the agreement, no time to change anything,are you interested, if so please sign here" !! Ok thats a bit simplistic but you get the drift.

 

Whatever your opinion of Fry he is here to sell the Football Club and to think or suggest that he will "scupper our one chance of survival" as you put it by being pig headed is a tad melodramatic and naieve. Besides most of that agreement, money wise anyway, has already been agreed with the Creditors and i thought back along we were told that Pinnacle were not offering the most but were in the best interests of the club. Given that the Swiss will be presumably paying less than they expected to !

[wild-saint]

I think some of you are missing the point. If Fry can get more by breaking up the club, selling its assets piecemeal to repay the creditors then he must do it. His duty is to the creditors (Barclays) first and the fans second.

and how much do you think he will get piecemeal if the club folds?

 

the players can walk for free in 2 weeks - £0

 

ground with no club is pretty much unsellable - £0 - £3mill maybe

 

jacksons farm - £1mil

 

so any offer over £4mill + add ons for promotion is a deal surely?

[eelpie]

An administrator has NO duty to fans, not second, not anywhere. Unless the club owes us money and last time I checked it didn't owe me anything, well apart from the fecking chancers on the pitch...

 

Except the fans are the customers and the club has been deprived of around 7,000 season ticket sales so far.

Mahwindbag similarly has foolishly dismissed the impact that Saints travelling fans have for opposition gates.

[Thedelldays]

Except the fans are the customers and the club has been deprived of around 7,000 season ticket sales so far.

Mahwindbag similarly has foolishly dismissed the impact that Saints travelling fans have for opposition gates.

if it is not our travelling fans it will be another teams...so what difference does it make..

[Pedro]

I still have a firm belief that the Pinnacle deal is dead and that the Jackson lot will be in early next week.

 

If that is the only option to save the club then like it or loathe it, he will be the saviour (for now).

 

Pinnacle just don't stack up anymore after the farce of the past few days and sadly I think MLT has been hoodwinked.

[Evo]

As the "Swiss" have Fry by the goolies, I'm sure they'll expect to pay less than the he, or the Creditors, want. They will probably meet half way.

 

Fry is probably referring to the structuring of the deal, rather than the exact wording of the contract. A contract can be drawn up, checked, cross-checked and signed in a day with, shall we say, suitably motivated lawyers.

 

The problem is, we don't know if this is a supposition from Duncan or whether he is privy to more details than we are?

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Why? Because Mark Fry is insisting they accept the deal agreed by the now discredited, never going to happen Pinnacle bid.

 

In less extreme circumstance, a guy offered me £500 over and above previous bids for a company van 2 weeks ago, I accepted, have not seen the nob since, did I then make the others trump up more simply because of that guys bid, no, of course not, they valued it as they saw it and were only prepared to pay that for it, it needed to go so I let it go for the next highest bid, simples !!

[eelpie]

if it is not our travelling fans it will be another teams...so what difference does it make..

 

Our travelling fans usually are quite numerous. I believe we would form the largest numbers behind Leeds, Norwich and possibly Charlton. That would make a difference to finances in other clubs. 'Should nave gone to Specsavers' Mahwhindbag isn't interested though.

 

If we are not playing in League 1, who will replace us?

[Thedelldays]

Our travelling fans usually are quite numerous. I believe we would form the largest numbers behind Leeds, Norwich and possibly Charlton. That would make a difference to finances in other clubs. 'Should nave gone to Specsavers' Mahwhindbag isn't interested though.

 

If we are not playing in League 1, who will replace us?

to be fair....looking at the bigger picture

 

the travelling away numbers are probably very low in priorities

[Beer Engine]

Perhaps the Swiss could pay the wages,that would give them some breathing space.

 

If the Swiss pay the wages now then the pressure is off Fry and they lose their bargaining position.

 

It's tough on the staff, but the reality is that the less the Swiss pay to buy the club, the more they'll have to invest in its development.

 

Pinnacle are out of the picture - any remaining bidder can dictate terms - Fry is talking nonsense about a take it or leave it deal - if they leave it the club folds and the creditors share the proceeds of a fire sale ..

[Evo]

If it came to a fire sale and I had the choice, I'd take SMS Ltd over SFC Ltd - depending on the charging order against it obviously - the stadium loan doesn't appear to be in SMS' name as far as I can see?

[ladysaint]

So it looks as though Fry has been taken for a ride by the Pinnacle group, so would it not be in the best interest to replace Fry now to deal with the Swiss?

[Legod Third Coming]

Except the fans are the customers and the club has been deprived of around 7,000 season ticket sales so far.

Mahwindbag similarly has foolishly dismissed the impact that Saints travelling fans have for opposition gates.

 

It's irrelevant. You didn't hear Wollies administrators saying we should save the business because there are people who won't have anywhere to go for their cotton reels and pick'n'mix...

[so22saint]

Heh, I love all this Fry has failed, lets replace Fry talk. Fact is, we as fans can do nothing about it and Fry is just the administrator. His job is to get the best deal for the creditors - he will have worked out a price for breaking the club assets up (say £8m) and legally cannot accept an offer below this.

 

If Pinnacle or the Swiss lot don't conclude a deal, then he'll break up and sell the assets, take his own bill and the creditors 1p in the pound or whatever and then move on to the next disaster.

 

Nothing we can do about it at all unfortunately, except watch and hope.

[MusicMan]

I understand MF has been told that if the Swiss make an offer it will be considerably less that what Pinnacle had offered. Not because they can’t afford it but because they are professionals and they only do business on their terms

[Weston Saint]

I understand MF has been told that if the Swiss make an offer it will be considerably less that what Pinnacle had offered. Not because they can’t afford it but because they are professionals and they only do business on their terms

That it what I am being told as well.

[Beer Engine]

Heh, I love all this Fry has failed, lets replace Fry talk. Fact is, we as fans can do nothing about it and Fry is just the administrator. His job is to get the best deal for the creditors - he will have worked out a price for breaking the club assets up (say £8m) and legally cannot accept an offer below this.

 

If Pinnacle or the Swiss lot don't conclude a deal, then he'll break up and sell the assets, take his own bill and the creditors 1p in the pound or whatever and then move on to the next disaster.

 

Nothing we can do about it at all unfortunately, except watch and hope.

 

What you say is right - but I think that Fry has been very niaive in letting the whole process go as far as it has on the basis of an alleged misunderstanding of the FL rules.

[Morph]

I understand MF has been told that if the Swiss make an offer it will be considerably less that what Pinnacle had offered. Not because they can’t afford it but because they are professionals and they only do business on their terms

 

Same with any bid from Salz, although I'd be keen for the Swiss bid to work as on the surface they appear to have much more money.

 

Anyway I'm off to see Neil Young in Hyde Park now with a few mates so oddly enough I could hear more later.

 

Regards

 

 

Morph

[shurlock]

Heh, I love all this Fry has failed, lets replace Fry talk. Fact is, we as fans can do nothing about it and Fry is just the administrator. His job is to get the best deal for the creditors - he will have worked out a price for breaking the club assets up (say £8m) and legally cannot accept an offer below this.

 

If Pinnacle or the Swiss lot don't conclude a deal, then he'll break up and sell the assets, take his own bill and the creditors 1p in the pound or whatever and then move on to the next disaster.

 

Nothing we can do about it at all unfortunately, except watch and hope.

 

A firesale will be disastrous for the creditors - see how Swansea bullied and screwed us over Dyer while people are too credit-constrained to buy our nonfootballing assets, even if they can find use for a football stadium. Its in the creditors interests for Fry to be as accomodating as possible to bids like the Swiss if such bids are serious.

[krissyboy31]

It's not Fry's choice to accept a lower price, that has to be approved by Aviva and Barclays. I guess he might get some direction from them later in the week if things aren't going well.....

 

Not necessarily. Fry would have had a lower limit that he would, without the agreement of the creditors, not be prepared or able to go below. His job however, is to get the best possible deal for said creditors and he will have had a starting price much, much higher. The reported £14million agreed with Pinnacle would have been somewhere between these two prices but my guess, closer to the asking price than the lower limit.

[gordonToo]

What you say is right - but I think that Fry has been very niaive in letting the whole process go as far as it has on the basis of an alleged misunderstanding of the FL rules.

 

I agree. Fry is not in a strong position and the Swiss should be able to close the deal on their terms this week as a result.

[Beer Engine]

Not necessarily. Fry would have had a lower limit that he would, without the agreement of the creditors, not be prepared or able to go below. His job however, is to get the best possible deal for said creditors and he will have had a starting price much, much higher. The reported £14million agreed with Pinnacle would have been somewhere between these two prices but my guess, closer to the asking price than the lower limit.

 

I'm trying to think what assets the club has and how much they are "worth".

 

Players can be sold to other clubs - assuming that they have not exercised their right to walk for not having been paid - so Fry could start selling them NOW - but surely the players will just say, hang on if I wait for 2 more weeks I can walk free of charge and divert some of the transfer fee which my new club would otherwise have had to pay into my weekly wages - so the players are unlikely to cooperate - so potentially the value of the players could be NIL

 

 

What value does SMS have to anyone other than a well supported football team? £3 million - £5 million?

 

Or would the new saints company take the stadium subject to Aviva's mortgage?

 

I just don't know but there must be a danger (opportunity) that the piecemeal sale of assets may only raise £5 million - or nothing at all - in which case a bid above that must get the green light.

 

Just thinking out loud ..

Edited 27 June, 2009 by Beer Engine
incompetence

[um pahars]

I'm trying to think what assets the club has and how much they are "worth".

 

Players can be sold to other clubs - assuming that they have not exercised their right to walk for not having been paid - so Fry could start selling them NOW - but surely the players will just say, hang on if I wait for 2 more weeks I can walk free of charge and divert some of the transfer fee which my new club would otherwise have had to pay into my weekly wages - so the players are unlikely to cooperate - so potentially the value of the players could be NIL

 

 

What value does SMS have to anyone other than a well supported football team? £3 million - £5 million?

 

Or would the new saints company take the stadium subject to Aviva's mortgage?

 

I just don't know but there must be a danger (opportunity) that the piecemeal sale of assets may only raise £5 million - or nothing at all - in which case a bid above that must get the green light.

 

Just thinking out loud ..

 

We did this a while back, but didn't have any consensus at all.

 

My view was that a piecemeal firesale would not achieve much, whilst others (and I think Guided Missile was more bullish) thought we could raise a decent sum.

 

My stance was that nothing would clear its true value in a desperate firesale. And then with regards assets:

 

Staplewood and Jackson's Farm won't get much in the current market with no planning permission and with some restrictions.

 

Players etc, minimal given our failure to pay them means they can start to walk away if they so choose.

 

St Mary's, land not worth that much (a few million, maybe less in current climes) and there definitly is not a market for an intact second hand football ground.

 

I have no idea what the cut off point is, although I'm sure Fry, Aviva & Barclay's have got their numbers, but I don't think emotion will come into making such a decision if the offers are too low.

[buctootim]

We did this a while back, but didn't have any consensus at all.

 

My view was that a piecemeal firesale would not achieve much, whilst others (and I think Guided Missile was more bullish) thought we could raise a decent sum.

 

My stance was that nothing would clear its true value in a desperate firesale. And then with regards assets:

 

Staplewood and Jackson's Farm won't get much in the current market with no planning permission and with some restrictions.

 

Players etc, minimal given our failure to pay them means they can start to walk away if they so choose.

 

St Mary's, land not worth that much (a few million, maybe less in current climes) and there definitly is not a market for an intact second hand football ground.

 

I have no idea what the cut off point is, although I'm sure Fry, Aviva & Barclay's have got their numbers, but I don't think emotion will come into making such a decision if the offers are too low.

 

We did do this a while back and some posters like me thought SMS, Staplewood and Jacksons Farm could raise c£8-10m even in the current climate. Those were guesstimates, but if accurate it would set a fairlly high minimum tariff for a Lg1 club.

[RedAndWhite91]

Maybe the divided, constantly arguing fan base could potentially make a bidder walk away.

[Amesbury Saint]

£15m for a League Two club?? Which is where we'll realistically be in 12 months.

 

Yeah, bargain... :S

 

Exactly

 

cant see how we are worth anymore than a few quid!

[Amesbury Saint]

We did do this a while back and some posters like me thought SMS, Staplewood and Jacksons Farm could raise c£8-10m even in the current climate. Those were guesstimates, but if accurate it would set a fairlly high minimum tariff for a Lg1 club.

 

but that depends on a willing purchaser.