Pompey Takeover Saga

[Clapham Saint]

The discussions can't be going all that well if Storrie feels he has to appeal to public sympathy. Chainrai's role of muddying the waters is also made very clear.

 

£1.8 million is not enough. The company could easily have raised the full £7.5 million had it sold more players. That's what any other company would have needed to do. Pompey have had ample opportunity.

 

Exactly.

 

If they had really really wanted too they could have raised the money in the transfer window. They chose not too and should face the consequenses.

 

Their argument will noo doubt be that "they" have now changed after Chanarai has "taken over" and so its not the current lots fault. Please don't punish us for the last owners actios etc.

 

Convenient timing of the "take over" isn't it. Goes against all normal logic.

 

Hmmm..........

[Chin Strain]

Chanrai's going to try and pay as little as possible to buy more time. I honestly think he reckons the club just needs a few weeks to find a buyer. Maybe he doesn't quite get that a PL club with infrastructure in place is worth something, but a CCC club with no infrastructure isn't.

 

If he's looking at paying £1.8m, then that's probably about the same amount that will be due again at the end of this month once wages have been paid.

 

The much quoted £1.8m per month wages is well short of what they're actually paying. Storrie alone is on £100k a month. At least the same for Grant, and once you get to the likes of James on £260k a month, and Utaka on £320k a month, £1.8m just doesn't add up. Storrie himself claimed a couple of months ago that they had chopped a third off the £55m wage bill.....so they're up for at least £3m per month.

 

Hopefully someone at the Revenue has a calculator and is asking how they think they're going to pay their way between now and the end of the season.

[sussexsaint]

FFS

[Gingeletiss]

......If he's looking at paying £1.8m, then that's probably about the same amount that will be due again at the end of this month once wages have been paid.

 

The much quoted £1.8m per month wages is well short of what they're actually paying. Storrie alone is on £100k a month. At least the same for Grant, and once you get to the likes of James on £260k a month, and Utaka on £320k a month, £1.8m just doesn't add up. Storrie himself claimed a couple of months ago that they had chopped a third off the £55m wage bill.....so they're up for at least £3m per month.

 

Hopefully someone at the Revenue has a calculator and is asking how they think they're going to pay their way between now and the end of the season.

 

They have infact, said they employ 600 people.....hope it's a bloody big calculator;);)

 

dubai_phil

Full Member

 

 

 

Join Date: Nov 2006

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Nothing much new in any of those press articles that hasn't been discussd on here, except for the gem that the skates are Portsmouth's 2nd largest employer with 600 over half of whom are part-time.

 

So obviously the council isn't very big then, and nice spin chaps.

 

My feelings - everything makes sense, HMRC would listen to the arguments and in normal circumstances would likely adjourn leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over them.

 

However, they did that before and they got ignored.

 

You can take the p1ss once, you can likely take it twice, but trying the same trick a third time? Needs a new angle if it's going to work

[Gravesend Saint]

The much quoted £1.8m per month wages is well short of what they're actually paying.

 

Isn't the £1.8m just the playing staff? I thought it was around £3m in total including all the non-playing.

[Fowllyd]

Much the same thing being reported in Da Noos as elsewhere:

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/Pompey-hope-to-settle-tax.6053989.jp

 

It seems to me that the £1.8M figure has come from some source or other (most likely Storrie) and then been repeated by various media. Personally, I can see no reason whatsoever why HMRC would accept a fraction of what they're owed from a business which has already failed abjectly to meet a staged payment schedule.

 

Note too that there's been no further mention of any appeal against the VAT component of what the tax man is owed. Various news sources reported that the club had appealed against the high court ruling; but it's Tuesday now, the winding up hearing is tomorrow and there's been no sign of any actual appeal. So I think we can safely assume that there wasn't one in the first place.

 

Smoke and mirrors...

[sussexsaint]

I am still struggling with how this really solves anything other than the immediate problem right here and now, come next pay day the problem will surely still exist.

[Joey-deacons-left-nut]

Well as a UK Tax payer still ( very small though ) I will be very annoyed IF HMRC don't demand full payment now.

No installment plans ever again they just cannot be trusted.

 

 

I agree, I'm so angry I could punch an otter!

[saintbletch]

I can't get this image out of my mind of Scudamore from the Premier League being like one of those hapless wrestling referees being duped by one tag team partner into ignoring the other partner 'beating' the crap out of his opponent.

 

Scudamore telling the Pompey fans' delegation that Chainrai is not the owner in their eyes as he is yet to pass the FAPPT and at the same time allowing the same bloke to so obviously be in control of the club and enter into negotiations with HMRC to prolong Pompey's existence.

 

It might suit the PL to turn a blind eye to try to get Pompey to limp across the line but it shames the supposed pinnacle of our footballing tree.

[hutch]

Storrie's last play - "It's not in HMRC's best interest to wind up Pompey, because that way they'll get nothing".

 

That will certainly make them stop and think. They can't possibly ever have been in that position before, can they?

[Gemmel]

Storrie's last play - "It's not in HMRC's best interest to wind up Pompey, because that way they'll get nothing".

 

That will certainly make them stop and think. They can't possibly ever have been in that position before, can they?

 

Taking out the emotion of who and what is invloved though, the relaity is if there is 1.8 million on the table now and then they default on teh next payment HRMC can wind them up, having banked 1.8 mill. If they wind them up now and get nothing......... they really do get nothing

[dubai_phil]

Taking out the emotion of who and what is invloved though, the relaity is if there is 1.8 million on the table now and then they default on teh next payment HRMC can wind them up, having banked 1.8 mill. If they wind them up now and get nothing......... they really do get nothing

 

Question to the experts.

 

Could HMRC accept the 1.8mil, go ahead with the hearing, obtain the judgement but ask for it to be deferred subject to blah blah blah.

 

In which way they get the money now and the skates have a "you miss the next payment by an hour you are history" hanging over them?

[NickG]

Question to the experts.

 

Could HMRC accept the 1.8mil, go ahead with the hearing, obtain the judgement but ask for it to be deferred subject to blah blah blah.

 

In which way they get the money now and the skates have a "you miss the next payment by an hour you are history" hanging over them?

 

exactly.

 

The winding up order was never going to wind them up imho.

 

It is all about setting in stone a payment plan

[Winchester Red]

If Storrie-teller is having to run to the press to put out statements like 'if they don't agree then they won't get anything, and that can't be right' then in my view they are nowhere near agreeing a deal

 

The HMRC lawyers do read papers and wont be impressed by this at all. Storrie may be used to negotiating with idiots but in this case he has just made his job even harder

[Saint_John]

Whats that coming over the hill?......SHABANI NONDA, SHABANI NONDA! (According to The Daily Hate) And his mate Erik Edmund could also sign on.

Ok, fingers crossed for a good week for Pompey, Tomorrow warm up for Saturday by beating Sunderland (again), Weds sort out Her Majesty's Crew before the main event on Saturday when we put your rabble well and truelly in your place. Then we can focus back on Joining the 'Real' football league. Things are looking up, PUP!

 

Just to bring you back into the real world, I think we all remember the Police raid on Farton Dump in July 2007

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1548900.0/

 

This led to further raids on certain addresses in 2008 and the court cases against Milan & Henry (11 Feb) and Storrieteller (15 April).

 

I have been told that as soon as these legal cases are over then the Football Authorities will step in and charge poopey with some football related issue (false accounting or something that breaks FA or PL rules).

 

For legal reasons they cannot do anything until after these Court Cases (? summer 2010 ?).

 

Therefore, if a new Arab or an Irish couple are going to step in at the last moment and become new owners I hope that they have done their due diligence ! Luton, West Ham come to mind.

[NickG]

and of course HMRC think very highly of Storrie and skates!

[Kingsland Codger]

Question to the experts.

 

Could HMRC accept the 1.8mil, go ahead with the hearing, obtain the judgement but ask for it to be deferred subject to blah blah blah.

 

In which way they get the money now and the skates have a "you miss the next payment by an hour you are history" hanging over them?

 

On this topic (and on so many others) I am not an expert but if they do the above (i.e. pay £1.8mil and given an 'absolutely final' final chance) what is there to stop PFC pulling the same trick next time? And again, and again.

 

HMRC: Where's our tax money? If you don't have it we'll wind you up immediately.

 

PFC: Remember last time? We'll do the same this time. We'll give you a small percentage of what we owe but, as before, if you wind us up you get nothing at all. Your call.

[pedg]

I see HMRC now going after the money being syphoned off to offshore accounts for image rights (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/08/premier-league-revenue-image-rights). Slightly relevant to the situation at pompey however on a related note we hear about the wage bill a lot but does this include the image rights payments? Sol Campbells was not an insubstantial sum and had not been paid for a while so its possible, ney likely, that a number of other players are due backdated image rights payments as well.

[stuey]

Taking out the emotion of who and what is invloved though, the relaity is if there is 1.8 million on the table now and then they default on teh next payment HRMC can wind them up, having banked 1.8 mill. If they wind them up now and get nothing......... they really do get nothing

 

OK. This is the bit i dont understand. Do they get nothing? How does winding up work? Dont they recoup something from the sale of any (admittedly pitiful) assets?

[Chez]

From the BBC website news item posted Tuesday 9th:

"The other creditors named in the action have been satisfied. The Revenue are likely to want a chunk of cash now and to be convinced that if they agree to re-schedule the remainder of the debt, that they will be paid." said Peter Tells Stories

 

to me that sounds as though absolutely no negotiations have taken place as yet. If they had then he would know what HMRC would want.

[pedg]

From the BBC website news item posted Tuesday 9th:

"The other creditors named in the action have been satisfied. The Revenue are likely to want a chunk of cash now and to be convinced that if they agree to re-schedule the remainder of the debt, that they will be paid." said Peter Tells Stories

 

to me that sounds as though absolutely no negotiations have taken place as yet. If they had then he would know what HMRC would want.

 

Given what little income they have at the moment will not cover their on going expenses they are only going to be convinced about rescheduling the remainder if they are shown proof that new money will be coming in.

[saintbletch]

If Storrie-teller is having to run to the press to put out statements like 'if they don't agree then they won't get anything, and that can't be right' then in my view they are nowhere near agreeing a deal

 

The HMRC lawyers do read papers and wont be impressed by this at all. Storrie may be used to negotiating with idiots but in this case he has just made his job even harder

 

This is true.

 

We should also remember that they are simultaneously talking to potential investors.

 

How are they going to keep the investors talking if it isn't "public knowledge" that they are "hopeful" of negotiating a deal?

 

Much of what is currently being said in public is for the benefit of potential investors IMO.

[stevegrant]

OK. This is the bit i dont understand. Do they get nothing? How does winding up work? Dont they recoup something from the sale of any (admittedly pitiful) assets?

I suspect they'd get bugger all, as the vast majority of the assets have been used as security for previous lending. I guess they could technically take ownership of the players' contracts and demand transfer fees to release them, but that would seem a bit unlikely.

[Joensuu]

HMRC should give them 28 days to find the entire £7.5 million. The Premier League should give the Pompey fans what they wanted, and give them an extra-special helping-hand, by re-opening the transfer window for any club wanting to buy from Portsmouth for the next 28 days.

 

Would be the fairest result all round IMO

[krissyboy31]

This is true.

 

We should also remember that they are simultaneously talking to potential investors.

 

How are they going to keep the investors talking if it isn't "public knowledge" that they are "hopeful" of negotiating a deal?

 

Much of what is currently being said in public is for the benefit of potential investors IMO.

 

And much of the talk of potential investors is for the benefit of HMRC. It's catch 22 of bull sheite!

[hutch]

In answer to Phil's question, in commercial litigation, the Parties can settle by means of a consent order, in agreed terms, which the Judge will then hand down, making it an Order of Court. You do that if you don't trust the other side to keep to their side of the deal. Don't know if the same applies to a WU petition.

 

If there really is £1.8m in cash on offer now, the appropriate way for HMRC would be to go to Court tomorrow and agree to accept £1.8m now, with the rest tied to a very short term repayment schedule. If PFC default again then winding up would be automatic, and HMRC wouldn't need to go back to Court. Why on earth would they accept £1.8m now, and an IOU, and withdraw the petition?

 

I can't see Chainrai going along with that. He's there to get his money back, not to oversee the terms where HMRC get their hands on "his" money. I still see admin as Chainrai's fall back position (but not Gayda's). If I understand the various charges correctly, some poor punter could buy the club for 99p from the administrator, and then Chainrai could screw him for whatever he can get to give them their pitch back. They need that. Do they need the adjacent land which Gayda holds? Nice to have, but only if you plan to develop the stadium there.

 

It's been a long time since I was involved in property development in the UK, but I can't see any way that the 2 parcels of land are worth anything like £48m as a development potential. £5m probably. £10m maybe.

Edited 9 February, 2010 by hutch

[krissyboy31]

HMRC should give them 28 days to find the entire £7.5 million. The Premier League should give the Pompey fans what they wanted, and give them an extra-special helping-hand, by re-opening the transfer window for any club wanting to buy from Portsmouth for the next 28 days.

 

Would be the fairest result all round IMO

 

Not sure PL can reopen the transfer window. I thought it was a FIFA imposed rule???

[Kingsland Codger]

HMRC should give them 28 days to find the entire £7.5 million. The Premier League should give the Pompey fans what they wanted, and give them an extra-special helping-hand, by re-opening the transfer window for any club wanting to buy from Portsmouth for the next 28 days.

 

Would be the fairest result all round IMO

 

This doesn't sound very fair to Wolves, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan and Hull (not sure about West Ham) and other fellow relegation candidates.

 

The Premier League seem to have completely forgotten about all of them in this shameful, shabby and excessively drawn out pantomime.

[TopGun]

I suspect they will do enough to buy time but their position has not altered one iota. They still have copious debt and large outgoings that are not covered by incoming revenue. That makes them as undesirable as ever to anyone except an absolute muppet.

[JackFrost]

Question to the experts.

 

Could HMRC accept the 1.8mil, go ahead with the hearing, obtain the judgement but ask for it to be deferred subject to blah blah blah.

 

In which way they get the money now and the skates have a "you miss the next payment by an hour you are history" hanging over them?

 

I'm no expert, but I thought they'd already done this, and failed, hence this winding up order?

[OldNick]

I thought yesterday Pompey were to have their appeal.That was to the court not the HMRC was it not? Why the meeting with the HMRC if Pompey were so sure of the appeal being won?

I accept that they will wriggle out and have felt so for some time. I can see the revenue taking the 1.8m on the terms of default again and then goodbye. Since the winding up order the tax and vat owed must have been increased and funnily enough 1.8m is about the money due on the 2 sales made in the transfer window. That would be the money received for those sales.

[rallyboy]

They have had ample opportunities to pay and also to sell, in January they made no effort to do either.

There has been no sign of the company addressing debt issues, until the court date looms...

They have also left it to the last 24 hours to negotiate - these are all self-created problems and I see no reason for the authorities to grant much at all.

 

Unpaid wages, unpaid creditors, but taking on new staff?

 

And yes it is personal, because we tried to get by with youth team players to reduce costs, our form suffered as a result and we were hit with a double whammy.

Other clubs have cut costs and been relegated on the back of money issues, Portsmouth has just continued to trade illegally.

Hang them high Mr Taxman.

[Gingeletiss]

.......If I understand the various charges correctly, some poor punter could buy the club for 99p from the administrator, and then Chainrai could screw him for whatever he can get to give them their pitch back. They need that. Do they need the adjacent land which Gayda holds? Nice to have, but only if you plan to develop the stadium there.

 

Now here is a novel idea, as hinted before. Saints buy Poopey from the administrator for '99p'. Then tell Chainrai he can stick his football ground, rename them Southampton reserves or somesuch, and we will be playing with certainty, in the Championship next season, maybe even the Premier..... Yeh I know, no way that will happen;)

[Crab Lungs]

dunno if it has been posted..but the minutes from their prem meeting

 

http://fansonline.net/portsmouth/article.php?id=1311

 

LOL at their fans believing they don't deserve a points deduction.... no, ok then. Not paying the wages and spending excessively to cheat is absolutely fine.

 

What a bunch of c()nts

[Fowllyd]

I thought yesterday Pompey were to have their appeal.That was to the court not the HMRC was it not? Why the meeting with the HMRC if Pompey were so sure of the appeal being won?

I accept that they will wriggle out and have felt so for some time. I can see the revenue taking the 1.8m on the terms of default again and then goodbye. Since the winding up order the tax and vat owed must have been increased and funnily enough 1.8m is about the money due on the 2 sales made in the transfer window. That would be the money received for those sales.

 

The appeal was, or would have been, to a different court to the one handling the winding-up petition. Pompey appealed in the high court against the HMRC's calculation of VAT owing; they lost, but were given the go-ahead to appeal if they saw fit. At that point, bullish noises emanated from both Pompey and their solicitors about their prospects at appeal. Various news sources reported that they had indeed appealed, but I think that this was most likely down to Pompey's own insistence that this was happening.

 

I think it's safe to say that there either was no appeal at all (most likely) or that it was lost. If they were waiting on the outcome of an appeal on the amount of VAT owing, the winding-up hearing would have to be postponed pending said outcome. Even Storrie is now saying that their only hope of avoiding the winding-up order is to reach a financial settlement before tomorrow.

 

Even if, as may happen, HMRC accepts £1.8M, with instant liquidation hanging over Pompey's head if further payments are not met, they'll still be totally f*cked. Unless, of course, they then find some means of meeting an agreed payment schedule. I can't for the life of me see how they'll do that. Any wriggling out will be temporary and very short term.

[sidthesquid]

Another interesting thing is that that Sunderland chap Nosworthy said he turned Poopey down, even after the clubs had agreed a loan fee of £250000 & there was an Egyptian whose club also turned them down after they offered £150000 loan fee. Presumably Spartak Moscow & Spuds got a loan fee, too. How the hell could they get away with that after the first WUO whilst now claiming they need more time to pay HMRC after already delaying the court case once. (And apparently they are about to sign another player today)

Also, their wage bill must generate about £1million/month in NI & PAYE that keeps accruing.

If they get away with this it will be the biggest p1ss-take of all time. Even more so if they stay up on other people's money.

[Joensuu]

HMRC say: ", the Revenue has insisted on complete confidentiality around Tuesday's talks with the club."

 

HMRC mean: "Shut up Storrie"

 

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=738917&sec=england&cc=5739

 

Portsmouth have continued their frantic negotiations with the Revenue after offering £1.8 million on an outstanding £7.5 million in the hope of avoiding going bust. Pompey may have to pay at least £3 million in order to be given extra time by the Revenue to find all of the money with a firm schedule of payments.

[StuRomseySaint]

With respect though... everyone says about HMRC... they are not the only ones on the petition now, so they might settle them, what's to stop the other 2 ( as I believe it ) from digging their heels in and sending them under?

[OldNick]

HMRC say: ", the Revenue has insisted on complete confidentiality around Tuesday's talks with the club."

 

HMRC mean: "Shut up Storrie"

 

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=738917&sec=england&cc=5739

the HMRC asking for confidentiality would suggest that they will do a deal today. Otherwise why would they say anything to tyr and keep Pompey from talking.

[bridge too far]

With respect though... everyone says about HMRC... they are not the only ones on the petition now, so they might settle them, what's to stop the other 2 ( as I believe it ) from digging their heels in and sending them under?

 

I think the other parties have settled / been paid off, Stu

[OldNick]

The appeal was, or would have been, to a different court to the one handling the winding-up petition. Pompey appealed in the high court against the HMRC's calculation of VAT owing; they lost, but were given the go-ahead to appeal if they saw fit. At that point, bullish noises emanated from both Pompey and their solicitors about their prospects at appeal. Various news sources reported that they had indeed appealed, but I think that this was most likely down to Pompey's own insistence that this was happening.

 

I think it's safe to say that there either was no appeal at all (most likely) or that it was lost. If they were waiting on the outcome of an appeal on the amount of VAT owing, the winding-up hearing would have to be postponed pending said outcome. Even Storrie is now saying that their only hope of avoiding the winding-up order is to reach a financial settlement before tomorrow.

 

Even if, as may happen, HMRC accepts £1.8M, with instant liquidation hanging over Pompey's head if further payments are not met, they'll still be totally f*cked. Unless, of course, they then find some means of meeting an agreed payment schedule. I can't for the life of me see how they'll do that. Any wriggling out will be temporary and very short term.

Thanks, I saw no mention anywhere about the appeal and so assumed that it had not gone ahead and another one of PS's statements that have not come to pass.

I understand the HMRC reluctance to wind a PL club up. the pressures ust be intense. A football club gets looked upon you and me I suppose but a sense of unjustice may prevail.

As fror reading the Pompey fans saying they should be a special case and not getting the penalty.....would they then accept their winning name being scrubbed from the FA cup at the same time?

[OldNick]

I think the other parties have settled / been paid off, Stu

It was only a 90k debt and so they probably scraped that in from their cup tickets for saturday

[krissyboy31]

I think the other parties have settled / been paid off, Stu

 

According to PS and he always tells the truth!!

[hutch]

Any wriggling out will be temporary and very short term.

As long as it's long enough to take them past the (March?) deadline for any points deduction to carry over to next season, it'll do for me.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

Do Pompey know any other answer but to gamble? A payoff is short term. The problems will still exist and the only solution they seem to be going for is to find a buyer AND hold off relegation. And they are currently 7 points adrift with goal difference probably making it 7.5.

 

If they don't pull back into the pack soon, will the buyers even be interested? And if not, a Championship side with £60m debt is a very different animal to a Premier League one.

 

Their game against Sunderland is massive - like the one we had (in 96?) away against Sunderland where it was pretty much loser gets relegated. It was their last season at Roker and we were still to get St. Marys. If we had lost, we would have been relegated and then...? I fully expect Portsmouth to win - but then they need to. Even a draw isn't good enough. I expect a one goal win. I'm just hoping it's the Mackems that pull it off.

[Clapham Saint]

They have had ample opportunities to pay and also to sell, in January they made no effort to do either.

There has been no sign of the company addressing debt issues, until the court date looms...

They have also left it to the last 24 hours to negotiate - these are all self-created problems and I see no reason for the authorities to grant much at all.

 

Unpaid wages, unpaid creditors, but taking on new staff?

 

And yes it is personal, because we tried to get by with youth team players to reduce costs, our form suffered as a result and we were hit with a double whammy.

Other clubs have cut costs and been relegated on the back of money issues, Portsmouth has just continued to trade illegally.

Hang them high Mr Taxman.

 

This will be the important thing with HMRC. If they had wanted to they could have raised the funds to pay. They chose not to and are now asking for more time.

 

HMRC is not a bank. They do not lend money to funding operating losses and will want paying.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

As long as it's long enough to take them past the (March?) deadline for any points deduction to carry over to next season, it'll do for me.

 

I don't think there is such a deadline. That's in the football league. I reckon they could even go into admin after the final whistle in the final game and they'd just be deducted Premier League points from their current season's tally. I don't believe they could or would transfer a penalty to the football league. The Premier League wouldn't attempt it and Pompey would contest it if they did.

[sidthesquid]

To quote ESPN -

Portsmouth offered to pay up some of the outstanding debt to the Revenue and also made offers to other businesses which planned to join the Revenue's winding-up order on Wednesday.

 

That is interesting as well - obviously there were/are others jumping on the bandwagon at the last minute. I bet they haven't paid them, just made more vague promises based on a new owner.

Basically Poopey are exploiting everyone's well-intentioned reluctance to be the one who finally pushes a football club over the edge, coupled with the threat that they won't see a penny if they do. Their debts are so huge that it is becoming like that old joke about Donald Trump - if you owe the bank a million you are in trouble, but if you owe them a hundred million it is they that are in trouble, not you

[Foxstone]

I don't think there is such a deadline. That's in the football league. I reckon they could even go into admin after the final whistle in the final game and they'd just be deducted Premier League points from their current season's tally. I don't believe they could or would transfer a penalty to the football league. The Premier League wouldn't attempt it and Pompey would contest it if they did.

 

But they would need a CVA to get out of Admin, and if they did not satisy the FL in this regard - They would get further points deductions in the FL.

[hutch]

HMRC is not a bank. They do not lend money to funding operating losses and will want paying.

They didn't lend it. PFC stole it.

 

This isn't about somebody who's a bit hard up paying his income tax late. Pompey received the VAT from other clubs on top of the transfer fees. That was HMRC money, not theirs, and they stole it and spent it on something else. Now they have to give it back, or pay the price.