Pompey Takeover Saga

[saintbletch]

I thought yesterday Pompey were to have their appeal.That was to the court not the HMRC was it not? Why the meeting with the HMRC if Pompey were so sure of the appeal being won?

I accept that they will wriggle out and have felt so for some time. I can see the revenue taking the 1.8m on the terms of default again and then goodbye. Since the winding up order the tax and vat owed must have been increased and funnily enough 1.8m is about the money due on the 2 sales made in the transfer window. That would be the money received for those sales.

 

Ha. So the money Pompey can pay HMRC could be the money they have collected in VAT outputs - i.e. the money they will have to pay HMRC at the end of the quarter. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

If that's the case then it's simply moving a cash flow problem, it isn't clearing the debt at all.

 

I suspect the HMRC boys will be well aware of that though.

[dronskisaint]

I'm no expert, but I thought they'd already done this, and failed, hence this winding up order?

 

Legally (& hopefully) this is true.

 

It costs the HMRC to bring it to this stage & they do so only because all other avenues have failed. Previous payment plans have been defaulted on, previous promises have been broken.

 

Whilst the HMRC have a duty to collect as much of (& let's not be under any illusions about this) OUR money there is a point at which they are not prepared to spend any more of the taxpayers hard earned cash on collection.

 

I believe this point has been reached - they have had chances beyond what would be normal practise with other businesses & flouted them - this SHOULD be the end of the process.

 

Footnote - earlier in the thread someone pointed out that the monthly ongoing outlay to HMRC would be 1-1.5 millon which sounds about right...much of this, of course, from the employees salaries. This is due 19th of every month & I assume that this must have been paid up to date or the sum would be much higher. Again - 'normal' companies would have had bailiffs in & distraints put on their property for non-payment. This really should be the end of the line.

[Matthew Le God]

Does being in these last minute talks mean that Pompey if it goes to court won't get the extension Notts County did?

 

I think so or else why are they bothering.

 

...anyway they had ample time in January to sell more than just Kaboul and Begovic but decided not to, so they could have paid the taxman everything in one lump sum.

[pedg]

http://pompey.blogsfc.com/portsmouth-live-fight-day.html

 

In what has been described as the ‘most defining week’ in the club’s history, Portsmouth could potentially go out of existence tomorrow afternoon.

Tonight’s home league fixture against

Sunderland

could be their last ever game,

yet bizarrely, a host of tickets still remain.

[sussexsaint]

If they go into admin and drop the 9 points do they also forefit parachute payment?

 

Also is there anything to back up the (S)tory of the American/Irish takeover?

[Matthew Le God]

If they go into admin and drop the 9 points do they also forefit parachute payment?

 

Going into admin doesn't forfeit the parachute money however...

 

From the minutes of the meeting between Pompey fan groups and the Premier League.

 

KM - Asked, should future payments to other clubs not be paid, could the parachute payments be withheld if needed?

 

RS - Yes, this has been done once before in similar circumstances at Derby County. Mr Scudamore said that withholding the television money owed to PFC was a difficult decision to make as the PL had a balancing act to do in safeguarding the need for creditors to receive the money and still allowing PFC to keep operating. The PL believes it has got this balance about right. The PFC fans delegation agreed that it was the right thing to do and that while painful to see the transfer embargo in place, the majority of fans agreed with it.

Edited 9 February, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Hatch]

Just got to office, car broke down, going to cost a fortune to fix probably.

 

Someone cheer me up...

 

 

Are these C^nts dead yet????

[Crab Lungs]

http://pompey.blogsfc.com/portsmouth-live-fight-day.html

 

In what has been described as the ‘most defining week’ in the club’s history, Portsmouth could potentially go out of existence tomorrow afternoon.

Tonight’s home league fixture against

Sunderland

could be their last ever game,

yet bizarrely, a host of tickets still remain.

 

lmfao. best fans in the world. lmfao.

[sussexsaint]

Are these C^nts dead yet????

 

Sorry mate , looks like you may be in for a Sh1t day

[Weston Saint]

Assuming they owe HMRC £7.5m I would, as a negotiator, be offering a payment of £1.5m now and stage payments thereafter pointing out to HMRC advisors that if the club was wound up or placed into Administration, as an unsecured creditor, they would be lucky to recoup 10%. Bearing in mind the tax owed is public money it would not be in the best public interest to take that action. I suspect such a deal would cause the winding up order to be withdrawn, particularly if other parties to the order have been paid up or similar deals struck.

 

Problem for Portsmouth is the the financial issues will not go away unless significant cash is injected long term.

I posted this last night before any figures were mentioned.

 

Since then £1.8m has been mentioned and if recent reports are correct HMRC have asked for any discussions today to remain confidential. that suggests to me that a deal will be done in the short term.

 

I suspect the final deal will be Pompey paying £2.5m within 7 days and the remainder in stage payments over the next year. That, with interest payments will likely be about £500,000 a month. If they default (which they will if a new owner is not found because there income streams are very limited) they will put themselves into Administration before the HMRC can act.

 

No details of any settlement will be in the public domain as HMRC will not want to be seen as a soft touch (but short term public interest ie getting hold of some of the money now, will be served).

 

However they hold all the cards and tomorrow's hearing is still a real possibility or the deal would have been done last night

[Clapham Saint]

They didn't lend it. PFC stole it.

 

This isn't about somebody who's a bit hard up paying his income tax late. Pompey received the VAT from other clubs on top of the transfer fees. That was HMRC money, not theirs, and they stole it and spent it on something else. Now they have to give it back, or pay the price.

 

Agreed.

[krissyboy31]

I posted this last night before any figures were mentioned.

 

Since then £1.8m has been mentioned and if recent reports are correct HMRC have asked for any discussions today to remain confidential. that suggests to me that a deal will be done in the short term.

 

I suspect the final deal will be Pompey paying £2.5m within 7 days and the remainder in stage payments over the next year. That, with interest payments will likely be about £500,000 a month. If they default (which they will if a new owner is not found because there income streams are very limited) they will put themselves into Administration before the HMRC can act.

 

No details of any settlement will be in the public domain as HMRC will not want to be seen as a soft touch (but short term public interest ie getting hold of some of the money now, will be served).

 

However they hold all the cards and tomorrow's hearing is still a real possibility or the deal would have been done last night

This sounds feasible but I would imagine that along with the agreed payments and the interest, any default on ongoing VAT, NI and PAYE would also trigger immediate winding up procedures, with no more 'last chances'.

[OldNick]

I posted this last night before any figures were mentioned.

 

Since then £1.8m has been mentioned and if recent reports are correct HMRC have asked for any discussions today to remain confidential. that suggests to me that a deal will be done in the short term.

 

I suspect the final deal will be Pompey paying £2.5m within 7 days and the remainder in stage payments over the next year. That, with interest payments will likely be about £500,000 a month. If they default (which they will if a new owner is not found because there income streams are very limited) they will put themselves into Administration before the HMRC can act.

 

No details of any settlement will be in the public domain as HMRC will not want to be seen as a soft touch (but short term public interest ie getting hold of some of the money now, will be served).

 

However they hold all the cards and tomorrow's hearing is still a real possibility or the deal would have been done last night

The confideniality thing set the alarm bells ringing. Clapham etc will be far more versed ion these things, but the revenue trying to keep a lid on the negotiations is all to stop other companies pointing their finger and saying why not do that for us.

[Weston Saint]

This sounds feasible but I would imagine that along with the agreed payments and the interest, any default on ongoing VAT, NI and PAYE would also trigger immediate winding up procedures, with no more 'last chances'.

Possibily, it depends how the order was drawn up. HMRC will want some protection. That may be what todays negotiations are all about, drawing up an agreed order for the court to approve.

[Clapham Saint]

Posters seem to fall into two camps.

 

Those who think that HMRC would be silly to get nothing and so it is only sensible to let them have one last chance and seek wind them up as soon as they default on a repayment plan. For the sake of argument lets call these posters the "posters who are wrong".

 

The "posters who are right", although understanding the logic of this relaise that this is exactly what they did LAST TIME. Without being able to demonstrate that they can pay back what is owed in full they are insolvent and should be wound up.

 

Obviously ;) before anybody gets upset.

[hutch]

Something caught my eye in the ESPN report. Not the "confidentiality" bit. That's to be expected. I'm sure if I phoned them and asked them for a statement about the progress of their negotiations with John Smith from Acacia Avenue (apologies if he's a member here) over the late payment of his income tax, they would tell me that any dealings are confidential between them and Mr. Smith.

 

But why are negotiations resuming at lunchtime (if that's true)? Given the importance, I can't imagine it's diary issues. By resuming at lunchtime, there will be no time to act afterwards before Court tomorrow.

 

So it seems to me that the outcome is already apparent, and the Parties know what it is.

 

What has been happening this morning?

 

One of 3 things, as I see it.

 

1. The Parties lawyers have been drawing up some sort of consent order with fixed repayment terms for presentation in Court tomorrow. But if that's the case why would they need to resume negotiations? In my experience you agree these things by e-mail or over the phone.

 

2. Pompey spun a few yarns at the negotiations yesterday, and HMRC said "prove it", and Pompey said they need time to get the necessary documents. HMRC said OK, but unless we see them tomorrow we carry on on Wednesday.

 

3. Pompey had something else they had to do today before the Court date, which is even more important.

 

Time will tell.

[aintforever]

Surely it's in HMRC's interests, unless they get paid in full, to wind them up?

 

Otherwise it sends out the message to every other football club that you don't have to bother paying your tax and can bully HMRC into an agreement that suits you a few months down the line.

[Weston Saint]

Posters seem to fall into two camps.

 

Those who think that HMRC would be silly to get nothing and so it is only sensible to let them have one last chance and seek wind them up as soon as they default on a repayment plan. For the sake of argument lets call these posters the "posters who are wrong".

 

The "posters who are right", although understanding the logic of this relaise that this is exactly what they did LAST TIME. Without being able to demonstrate that they can pay back what is owed in full they are insolvent and should be wound up.

 

Obviously ;) before anybody gets upset.

Well we should know by tomorrow and I bow to your experience in such matters.

 

I am aware that they have already had three owners since this bill became payable and none of them have taken any action to pay the outstanding amount so why should this be any different. I am also told that the HMRC are very pee'd off with the club but I cannot go into detail at this stage.

 

I still think a deal will be struck today. My negotiation background gives me that confidence.

 

Hope I am wrong though

[hutch]

I don't think there is such a deadline. That's in the football league. I reckon they could even go into admin after the final whistle in the final game and they'd just be deducted Premier League points from their current season's tally. I don't believe they could or would transfer a penalty to the football league. The Premier League wouldn't attempt it and Pompey would contest it if they did.

Next season they will be in the Football League, and subject to it's rules. And if they didn't I expect the other 23 CCC clubs would contest it.

 

I accept that this situation is breaking new ground. But we know from our own experience that the League tend to apply their rules in the spirit in which they were intended, rather than to the letter.

[Merovingian]

LOL at their fans believing they don't deserve a points deduction.... no, ok then. Not paying the wages and spending excessively to cheat is absolutely fine.

 

What a bunch of c()nts

 

nice generalisation there - we deserve the 9 points and a further deduction should a satisfactory conclusion not be reached for all concerned, should it come to that

[Block 18]

http://pompey.blogsfc.com/portsmouth-live-fight-day.html

 

In what has been described as the ‘most defining week’ in the club’s history, Portsmouth could potentially go out of existence tomorrow afternoon.

Tonight’s home league fixture against

Sunderland

could be their last ever game,

yet bizarrely, a host of tickets still remain.

 

You missed this excellent bit from the blog:-

 

[Clapham Saint]

Well we should know by tomorrow and I bow to your experience in such matters.

 

I am aware that they have already had three owners since this bill became payable and none of them have taken any action to pay the outstanding amount so why should this be any different. I am also told that the HMRC are very pee'd off with the club but I cannot go into detail at this stage.

 

I still think a deal will be struck today. My negotiation background gives me that confidence.

 

Hope I am wrong though

 

You can obviously never say never.

 

However in cases where I have seen HMRC get this far they don't tend to back down.

 

We'll see but I'm firmly in the "posters who are right" camp.

[krissyboy31]

Insolvency lawyer on SSN earlier said that the most likely option is that HMRC will grant them an adjournment of between 2 and 4 weeks but did not rule out either liquidation or administration (the only thing he did rule out was the Skates paying the bill).

[Fowllyd]

You can obviously never say never.

 

However in cases where I have seen HMRC get this far they don't tend to back down.

 

We'll see but I'm firmly in the "posters who are right" camp.

 

As a matter of interest, do HMRC get preferred creditor status in the event of the winding up going ahead, given that they are the ones who've served the petition in the first place? Not that there'll be much for them to get of course, but I was just wondering...

[Clapham Saint]

As a matter of interest, do HMRC get preferred creditor status in the event of the winding up going ahead, given that they are the ones who've served the petition in the first place? Not that there'll be much for them to get of course, but I was just wondering...

 

Nope.

 

They will be in the same pot as the milkman.

[Clapham Saint]

Insolvency lawyer on SSN earlier said that the most likely option is that HMRC will grant them an adjournment of between 2 and 4 weeks but did not rule out either liquidation or administration (the only thing he did rule out was the Skates paying the bill).

 

Not long to find out if I can either say I told you so or have to admit getting it wrong...

 

It is highly unlikely any lawyer/accountant/an other is going to announce that he/she thinks they are insolvent and royally F**ked on national radio or tv though. If they did the skates legal team (and there must be a few of them) would be all over them like a rash.

 

Tick tock.

[krissyboy31]

Nope.

 

They will be in the same pot as the milkman.

 

The milkman's doing okay, raking in all that family allowance, after fathering 90% of their fan base.

[hutch]

(the only thing he did rule out was the Skates paying the bill).

At last. Somebody ITK at Pompey.

[RedAndWhite91]

[bridge too far]

Not long to find out if I can either say I told you so or have to admit getting it wrong...

 

It is highly unlikely any lawyer/accountant/an other is going to announce that he/she thinks they are insolvent and royally F**ked on national radio or tv though. If they did the skates legal team (and there must be a few of them) would be all over them like a rash.

 

Tick tock.

 

I wonder if the plethora of lawyers are getting paid on time

 

If I was a part-time ticket office clerk (and let's face it, they probably only need to employ part-timers) I'd be mightily ******ed off if the lawyers got paid on time and I didn't.

[Whitey Grandad]

Posters seem to fall into two camps.

 

Those who think that HMRC would be silly to get nothing and so it is only sensible to let them have one last chance and seek wind them up as soon as they default on a repayment plan. For the sake of argument lets call these posters the "posters who are wrong".

 

The "posters who are right", although understanding the logic of this relaise that this is exactly what they did LAST TIME. Without being able to demonstrate that they can pay back what is owed in full they are insolvent and should be wound up.

 

Obviously ;) before anybody gets upset.

There is also the wider picture to consider. Winding up the club might well result in receiving less money than waiting for staged payments, but it would send a big message to all the others that are stalling on paying their taxes. It's one thing that I was taught when I started in business: always pay your taxes.

[dronskisaint]

The milkman's doing okay, raking in all that family allowance, after fathering 90% of their fan base.

 

Very in the know!

[Clapham Saint]

There is also the wider picture to consider. Winding up the club might well result in receiving less money than waiting for staged payments, but it would send a big message to all the others that are stalling on paying their taxes. It's one thing that I was taught when I started in business: always pay your taxes.

 

Quite right.

 

They might get nothing from the skates but if 5 other clubs suddenly feel the need to stop p*ssing around and cough up then HMRC are still on the up.

[hutch]

It's almost 1 o'clock.

 

Never mind tonight, the second half of the second leg is about to kick off now. And one thing's for sure, there WILL be penalties at the end of this one.

[stevegrant]

There is also the wider picture to consider. Winding up the club might well result in receiving less money than waiting for staged payments, but it would send a big message to all the others that are stalling on paying their taxes. It's one thing that I was taught when I started in business: always pay your taxes.

Yep.

 

Would be interesting to know the "public opinion" on HMRC essentially tossing away circa £7.5m of public money with the long-term benefit that they know damn well they'll be getting paid in full and on time by football clubs in the future...

 

It would be good to see the Premier League implement the same tax rules that the Football League brought in last year - any club not keeping up-to-date with their tax liabilities will be placed under a transfer embargo.

[Fowllyd]

There is also the wider picture to consider. Winding up the club might well result in receiving less money than waiting for staged payments, but it would send a big message to all the others that are stalling on paying their taxes. It's one thing that I was taught when I started in business: always pay your taxes.

 

Quite right.

 

They might get nothing from the skates but if 5 other clubs suddenly feel the need to stop p*ssing around and cough up then HMRC are still on the up.

 

"Dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" - Voltaire.

 

Smartarse? Moi? :D:D

[trousers]

Can't we call in our credit (unpaid for FA Cup tickets) as soon as the match has been paid?

[Made in Southampton]

Does anyone know the dates and timescales of any annoucements?

[saintbletch]

Quite right.

 

They might get nothing from the skates but if 5 other clubs suddenly feel the need to stop p*ssing around and cough up then HMRC are still on the up.

 

I think it's quite possible that HMRC decides to set aside the short term cash advantage in order to send a message.

 

What has happened at PFC over the last 4-5 years amounts to systemic withholding of (alleged) personal and business taxes.

 

Hull rumoured also to be in a bit of strife might look at the Pompey situation and infer that they can not pay the VAT once, be warned, arrange a staged payment, miss these payments, be served with a WUO, appeal, be served with another WUO and then make a small gesture to get offered another staged payment plan. Buying themselves, what, 6-9 months of breathing space, collecting VAT to aid cash flow all the time and not having to pay it out.

 

The bank of HMRC - the only place you can guarantee to get credit these days.

[NickG]

doubt it, just when its agreed

[benjii]

It is a bit of a mistake to necessarily think of HMRC as having the same mentality as a rational commercial creditor.

 

They are an emanation of the state of sorts and there is a public interest argument in them not allowing a company which is clearly insolvent to continue trading purely so they can recuop x% of their losses in the short-term.

 

They have to be seen to be "doing the right thing" to a certain extent. Whereas there is no problem in a commercial creditor getting what they can now, HMRC have to be a bit more sensitive to the general principles of the law.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Without being at all 'in the know' I suspect that in reality HMRC are under a legal duty to maximise the tax return to the exchequer , and all this 'send a message out' stuff is just so much chaff in the wind . Something is always better than nothing , and some kind of messy deal will be reached . Probably something like PFC agreeing to donate most of next seasons 'parachute payment' directly to the taxman .

[Whitey Grandad]

"Dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" - Voltaire.

 

Smartarse? Moi? :D:D

'Candide' - Je l'ai lu, et en français, d'ailleurs.

[Matthew Le God]

Without being at all 'in the know' I suspect that in reality HMRC are under a legal duty to maximise the tax return to the exchequer , and all this 'send a message out' stuff is just so much chaff in the wind .

 

Sending a message out could maximise the return to the exchequer in the long term.

[Whitey Grandad]

Can't we call in our credit (unpaid for FA Cup tickets) as soon as the match has been paid?

If we get a bye, do we still get the prize money?

[bridge too far]

BBC South saying frantic negotiations still ongoing. If no deal is struck today, WUP will be heard at 10.30 tomorrow.

[saintds]

So when's the latest we can expect an announcment, confirmed by both sides, if they're able to come to an agreement. Up to the point they walk into court tomorrow?

 

Or can we rest easy if we've heard nothing by close of play tonight?

 

:confused:

[Matthew Le God]

If we get a bye, do we still get the prize money?

 

Yes of course.

[Joensuu]

BBC South saying frantic negotiations still ongoing. If no deal is struck today, WUP will be heard at 10.30 tomorrow.

 

Not sure which court to look in, but I can't see any sign of it yet! http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/courthearings.htm

[Whitey Grandad]

So when's the latest we can expect an announcment, confirmed by both sides, if they're able to come to an agreement. Up to the point they walk into court tomorrow?

 

Or can we rest easy if we've heard nothing by close of play tonight?

 

:confused:

I'm no expert (on this sort of thing) but I think it can go right up to the time they meet the judge.