tony13579 Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 how come the vote has been won by 81.3% how has the taxman been reduced to 18.7% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If HMRC go back to court they we know it's going to be a fight. If not....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 TBH the decision today actually simpliflies the parties involved. First it was Andronikou v HMRC v Other Creditors. Now? Andronikou v HMRC. Looking forward to that one.......'transparency' was the word used when the administrators took over. No public confirmation of 'forensic accounting' being completed as promised...... No explanation why the SoA by Vantis was soooooo out of touch with the figures NOW being quoted. *cups ear* - what is that? Ooooh..SuBO's gargling Listerine......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Portsmouth-creditors-accept-CVA.6368898.jp#5318424 V-unhappy I'm totally ambivalent about it. It means nothing until the cooling off period has expired without a challenge by HMRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 So the ball now lies in the HMRC court, with "Court" being the operative; 1) They challenge their % of the debt, as aa only recognised, 24 of the 34 million owed 2) They challenge the validity of the debts to other parties 3) They go after Gaydamak and other Executives for insolvent trading and claim their losses from individuals rather than pompey (Storrie will be bricking it) I think it is safe to assume, that chanarai will now offically take over. I don't think he will invest, he will just take what is owed and try to sell it on. The new company will have liabilities (As do most clubs) but will be in a much better position to sell. Maybe for 10 million (Goes to Chanarai) Lets see what HMRC do, but we should acknowledge that aa will know what is coming and must be confident nothing can be stuck on him or any wrong doing be proven. As much as a weirdo as he is, he's not stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 from the pompey news thread: 33 kski, good news of sorts 17/06/2010 12:52:27 Well its a step forwards - which is good. The appeal issue could be a problem. Also if we take HMRC £24m as 18.6% of debt, then the total unsecured debt now stands at £129m That is an increase of £25m debt in three days. What I cannot understand is how the the debt figures seems to oscillate on a weekly basis. Factor in the Secured debt £20m And football debt £22m and the club has a position of £171m debt. One would hope an administrator would be able to fix a level of debt owed and be accurate within 3%. Question 1 - How and why has the uinsecured debt balloned to £129m level Question 2 - Will the HMRC accept this reduce figure? Question 3 - Given a £13m difference will they appeal and delay the CVA -to show consistency in the HMRC approach and illustrate that they are not willing to let go of owed debt? From a positive side it the CVA proceeds , but takes 28 days to authorise, then 7 days for the court to be booked to present the CVA. That takes the date fro agreement to 25th July. When do the FL meet and when can the registration embargo be lifted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blandford saint Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 The 20% they have to come up with will be difficult to raise -it's not over yet. There won't be much of a team left. Shocking, though, the way they've been treated compared to poor old Salisbury City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 25th July eh Gonna be some very lonely people flying to the US for their pre-season tour. I assume they have entered some 6-a-side tournaments over there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 There's a mixed bag posting in response to The New's announcement of the CVA approval, so at least some realists do exist amongst their fanbase. But here is an example of one of the most deluded ones. 24 Paul 99, 17/06/2010 12:44:12 HMRC have manipulated the figures to give themselves a sufficient % of the vote to avoid it being passed. The problem they have is that the money isn't actually due to them yet, so they are claiming a figure based upon what they think they are eventually going to be owed. They now have to decide whether they are going to lose more tax payer money in challenging something they have a good chance of losing !! If he had one objective bone in his body, I think that he would find that it was Andronikou who manipulated the debt figures so that the HMRC would have less than the necessary 25% to upset the CVA. I think that he'd also find that part of the debt to the HMRC was a penalty fine for late payment, but that the remainder actually does exist as current debt, not some projection of what they think it should be. Also I laugh at the incredible naivety that assumes that HMRC would be taking a massive risk in going to court "to lose more taxpayers' money challenging something they have a good chance of losing. I'm sure that they won't be taking the advice of Paul 99's assessment of their chances, quite possibly preferring to act on the advice of top legal counsel instead. But if he had the intelligence to look at the big picture, essentially it is a toss up between getting 20% of 17 million or 20% of 37 million, or challenging the football creditors ruling and getting much more. And what is the position regarding costs if they are successful? Are they awarded to HMRC and therefore added to the indebtedness of Pompey? There seems amongst the Skate fanbase to be a willingness to count their chickens before they have come home to roost. They are going to be so upset when it does go to court, delaying their season until such times as they will be in massive disarray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If they cant officialy exit administartion until the 28 days cooling off is over, then are they able to start appointing a new manager and signing new playes or must they wait till the 28 days are up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I think most people accept that Chanri's only interest is getting his money back and his hands on the Parachute money. If that's the case any appeal from HMRC over the CVA wont matter to him. If they appeal it, he'll just do a Bates and buy the Club without a CVA, get a points deduction, and still get his hands on the Parachute money. Or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Well Chanria now has a half decent squad and club for a pittance. Now if you were a billionaire would you now risk 5-10m improving what you have to get back to the multi million pound riches of the PL, if not him the Ukrainians. it is not about infrastructure but having a presence in the PL that brings the money in. The CCC is as weak as it has been for many years with many clubs close to going pop.As i said it is all about timing and yet again it has fallen in Pompeys favour. Come on HMRC nows your chance to prove my doubts wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Well Chanria now has a half decent squad and club for a pittance. Now if you were a billionaire would you now risk 5-10m improving what you have to get back to the multi million pound riches of the PL, if not him the Ukrainians. it is not about infrastructure but having a presence in the PL that brings the money in. The CCC is as weak as it has been for many years with many clubs close to going pop.As i said it is all about timing and yet again it has fallen in Pompeys favour. Come on HMRC nows your chance to prove my doubts wrong You're jumping the gun again, Nick. If HMRC challenge the CVA in the Courts, won't the FL maintain the transfer embargo until the case has been decided? Even if they get past that unscathed, further points deductions can be made by the FL if the Court cases against Redcrapp, Storrie and Mandaric are successful, probably scuppering Pompey's efforts at promotion. And you're also presuming that the Ukrainians, whoever they are, would pass the fit and proper persons rules too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Even if the embargo is lifted, they might find it hard to sign players. Agents have been stung and clubs haven't been paid on time. Therefore they might have to work on cash with order, rather than the more usual deferred payment method. To be honest you would have to be crazy to accept a deferred payment until a new owner is in place. I still am not sure that anyone will buy the club, so that would mean that Chainrai would have to finance it himself. Unless he has some epiphany and decides that he loves football and Pompey, is he likely to dip into his pocket even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Not wishing to sound like nickh here but they've got the CVA despite many on here saying they wouldn't, they're going to get away with this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Londoner Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 When will we know if HMRC will appeal against this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 When will we know if HMRC will appeal against this ? At the very last minute, if they are true to form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 (snip) ...they've got the CVA despite many on here saying they wouldn't... (snip) I have to agree. This thread is chock full of definites that have turned out to be anything but. If I was a P*mpey fan I would be laughing at the undeserved arrogance of most of this thread by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Well there is no shock there then! What it all boils down to is the % of the debts. Android has obviously made his allies % higher at the expense of HMRC. What they do will give us an indication of what is to come. If they challenge which they obviously will then this this get's dragged out for at least 3 weeks more. If they go into a court case with HMRC then Portsmouth will have to answer a lot of questions. Most notibly how the debt has managed to increase by nearly double since they were in administration. The administrator is supposedly not allowed to take on more debt under the companies name. Why were these debts missed in the soa? By going to court these questions will need to be answered. However if the HMRC come out and agree to it then in that respects they have got away with it. But the FL can still take action over various things. Until it is all agreed then the embargo remains. As for the squad they have to play in CCC. They will struggle. They were poor in PL and now have a depleted squad. They still have to sell players to get the money to pay the football creditors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 how come the vote has been won by 81.3% how has the taxman been reduced to 18.7% 2 words Figures Fudged! The amount owed has gone up according to who has enough of a %'age to get the vote through. Next step will be HMRC challenging it and then we will see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 It's not the CCC anymore FFS..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroppie Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 The underlying point is that there have been no definites. The debt figure has been so fluid and vague that it's no surprise that the administrator, given his apparent interests, has simply adjusted HMRC's share and the total to give the answer he wants. Was always going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I just looked back to page 250 on this thread. it makes interesting reading in fact it is like Groundhog day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I have to agree. This thread is chock full of definites that have turned out to be anything but. If I was a P*mpey fan I would be laughing at the undeserved arrogance of most of this thread by now. If you were a SENSIBLE Pompey fan, then you'd not believe that you were out of the woods until the 28 day appeal period had passed and the CVA was approved in Court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If you were a SENSIBLE Pompey fan, then you'd not believe that you were out of the woods until the 28 day appeal period had passed and the CVA was approved in Court. Indeed. I would laugh, however, at the authority with which some people post when they state what is going to happen at various stages, only to then shift the goalposts to the next stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If you were a SENSIBLE Pompey fan, then you'd not believe that you were out of the woods until the 28 day appeal period had passed and the CVA was approved in Court. Wes Im sure that is fair, but also if you had read this site!!!!!! I must get Guinness book of records to get their stop watches out as it must be the longest burning of toast ever. AA and co...in fact the whole crew have pulled off a coup. How they managed to stop being wound up in Feb...oh I know have a firm of accountants in who find only half the debts, then when you get through that get another in who double the debts and still run rings around everyone, having a trip to the cup final and beating your biggest rivals in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If you were a SENSIBLE Saints fan, then you'd not believe that they were out of the woods until the 28 day appeal period had passed and the CVA was approved in Court. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 And people talk about AA as if he's some sort of Muppet. He appears to be doing a bloody good job for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 The CVA will be approved because AA will move the debt levels around to fit. HMRC will challenge it and this will have a long time to run. Leeds were forced to come out of admin without a CVA because the administrator could not afford to bankroll the appeal process. No doubt Chanrai will bankroll the skates thoug because of the promise of the parachute payments. Will be interesting to see the outcome of any appeal once HMRC have done challenging. Told you so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Given that we are nearly 28 of posts on , can we safely assume that the cross dressing saints/skate fan (Im not sure if he is a skate or a saints fan) NickH has been right all along. Its a sad day for Football somehow a bunch of cheats like the skates get away with it while other decent clubs with nowhere near the debt or recklessness of the skates get well and truly shafted There is so much injustice and this is skate episode is yet more evidence of wrong doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Told you so So you're the 'expert' to be believed. By the way where are smiley things now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 And people talk about AA as if he's some sort of Muppet. He appears to be doing a bloody good job for them. To be fair he has thus far not met any resistance to what he has been doing. The only hint of that was from Griffins report. IF HMRC take them to court then that will be the time he has to justify his position and the decisions he has made. He will have to explain his actions and how he got to those conclusions. Until we have a proper report from the meeting we are all just speculating but right now he looks good because nobody has called him out on his statements. HMRC have remained quiet. I would be very surprised if they and others didn't make a challenge. Because basically these numbers mean only HMRC were aggainst and everyone else was for it, which personally i find hard to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 So the blueprint for going into massive debt is, make sure you don't owe the banks but lots of small businesses who are fans. You can shaft them as they wont risk voting against you.The same happened at AFCB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 (edited) By no means over! Response from HMRC... "HMRC notes that the result of today's vote was to accept the CVA proposals," "We will now be carefully considering our position. HMRC stands by the full amount of its claim. We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes." http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/17/portsmouth-exit-administration-cva Edited 17 June, 2010 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 So the blueprint for going into massive debt is, make sure you don't owe the banks but lots of small businesses who are fans. You can shaft them as they wont risk voting against you.The same happened at AFCB. It's more make sure you owe HMRC but owe other people loads more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper71 Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 This might actually be a good thing. If the CVA had been rejected AA would have very quickly needed to come up with an alternative / might have been booted out and someone come in and do a proper job. This way he'll plod along for 4 more weeks hoping he's out of the woods only to to see a forest spring up around him - that's a waste of 4 weeks and a whole lot more cost that they don't have. Even IF it goes through in 28 days time, the whole plan revolves around being able to sell enough players to generate enough cash, which isn't going to happen - then he'll be in breach of the CVA and we'll start all over again - and the FL do not like you not maintaining payments agreed under a CVA.....ask Swindon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 By no means over! Response from HMRC... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/17/portsmouth-exit-administration-cva There is nothing to say they won't be dragged into a court dispute. They is no way they will just give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Sorry, but I am now an 'expert' on this matter. Poopey have had their punishment of -9 points, there will be no more punishments. They will exit admin as planned with the CVA. HMRC will not appeal. The only real experts on here are myself and nickh !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 'We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes." Now that is a very interesting and uplifting response. The wording very telling what they think of AA's actions. I suggest that it may well be contested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Sorry, but I am now an 'expert' on this matter. Poopey have had their punishment of -9 points, there will be no more punishments. They will exit admin as planned with the CVA. HMRC will not appeal. The only real experts on here are myself and nickh !!! Did you think that with Leeds? HMRC waited until the last possible moment of the 28 day cooling off period and the CVA collapsed even though Leeds got 75.4%. Looks like nickh is coming around to the other side now after HMRC's response in the Guardian... 'We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes." Now that is a very interesting and uplifting response. The wording very telling what they think of AA's actions. I suggest that it may well be contested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Sorry, but I am now an 'expert' on this matter. Poopey have had their punishment of -9 points, there will be no more punishments. They will exit admin as planned with the CVA. HMRC will not appeal. The only real experts on here are myself and nickh !!! I think after reading the hmrc response they will contest it. I am not an expert, and dont pretend to be, although in my field of business i would feel Iam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 Did you think that with Leeds? HMRC waited until the last possible moment of the 28 day cooling off period. Knowing Pompeys luck, the courier from the HMRC will take the papers to Dean Court and not the High court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draino76 Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 If Chanrai likes her she should just put a ring on it. If she loves then she gatta put a ring on it. Oh oh oooh, oh oh oh, oh oh o o, oh oh oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 (edited) Surely they can't sign new players, offer existing players contracts or appoint a manager during the 28 cooling off period? So the transfer embargo can't be lifted on 1st July. Would have to wait until cooling off period has expired without incident on 15th July. Edited 17 June, 2010 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I think it all comes down to whether it is image rights tax (not legally enforcable) or fines from HMRC (legally enforcable) as to whether HMRC have a case here. If it is the image rights the AA will vigorously contest it because in law HMRC cannot enforce them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I think after reading the hmrc response they will contest it. I am not an expert, and dont pretend to be, although in my field of business i would feel Iam That's better nick, hope you can keep up this new found positivity... Knowing Pompeys luck, the courier from the HMRC will take the papers to Dean Court and not the High court ... oh, well you almost managed a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I think it all comes down to whether it is image rights tax (not legally enforcable) or fines from HMRC (legally enforcable) as to whether HMRC have a case here. If it is the image rights the AA will vigorously contest it because in law HMRC cannot enforce them. I think it is a case of whether the HMRC can show that he moved the figures to suit. Looking back at the time when it was in court the HMRC said they were owed 11m, it seems their figure jumped as dramatically as Pompeys debt. The moment the lady judge gavve them 7 days that quickly turned into 2 weeks the whole balance changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 That's better nick, hope you can keep up this new found positivity... ... oh, well you almost managed a minute.Lol, well I cant keep my happy demeanor too long, now can I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 I think it all comes down to whether it is image rights tax (not legally enforcable) or fines from HMRC (legally enforcable) as to whether HMRC have a case here. If it is the image rights the AA will vigorously contest it because in law HMRC cannot enforce them. Well it'll be that then. Sorry for my extreme negativity, but I'm trying to outdo nickh here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 June, 2010 Share Posted 17 June, 2010 will be interesting to see what hmrc will challenge. There are a number of angles they could take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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