Could the cups have dented promotion this season..?

[Thedelldays]

we have dropped something like 22 points from the games either side of a cup tie this season

 

that seems a massive amount..

[scott_saints]

I will not accept anything other than losing in the first round of all the cups next season.

[alpine_saint]

Short answer, yes.

 

A lot of people had a great day out at Wemberlee, I know.

 

Would have been better to go out of the JPT, get 6 extra points, and have that Wemberlee visit at the end of May.

 

The FA cup run was a complete nuisance, but strangely enough it might have been the kick-in-the-pants responsible for our run-in form.

[Thedelldays]

I will not accept anything other than losing in the first round of all the cups next season.

if it means winning the league...damn farking right..:smt106

[Saint_clark]

I don't think any correlation can be drawn at all, because there were also instances where we won both our games before/after a cup tie.

[slickmick]

Yes.

[Thedelldays]

I don't think any correlation can be drawn at all, because there were also instances where we won both our games before/after a cup tie.

that happened once only

[Block 5]

we have dropped something like 22 points from the games either side of a cup tie this season

 

that seems a massive amount..

 

I don't give a sh1t.

 

It's been a brilliant season.

 

So far I have seen us win 27 times (with another 4 potential wins on the cards).

Last season I saw a similar number of games and saw us win only 7 times.

[jam]

Hard to say. While the cups did mean extra fixtures for us, we only lost cup games to Premiership opposition and I think helped with instilling that 'winning mentality' that Pardew talks about.

 

I think that we raised our game against Portsmouth and have been a much better side since then and even if we don't go up, the way we are playing bodes well for next season.

 

(of course, I would trade them all in for us to finish in the top two this season).

[Saint_clark]

OK, forgetting the league cup games because they were both in the first 10 of the season, our cup ties are as such;

 

Gillingham home (W), Torquay cup (W), Southend away (W)

Leyton Orient away (D), Rovers cup (W), Charlton cup (W), Brighton home (L)

Hartlepool away (W), Northampton cup (W), Wycombe home (W)

Tranmere home (W), Norwich cup (W), Leeds away (L)

Colchester away (L), Luton cup (W), Millwall away (D)

Millwall away (D), MK Dons cup (W), Ipswich cup (W), Brentford away (D)

Exeter away (D), MK Dons cup (W) Pompey cup (L), Norwich away (W)

Hartlepool home (W), Carlisle cup (W), Brighton away (D)

 

Take from that what you will, but some of those results (including Brentford away) don't look so bad in retrospect.

Edited 19 April, 2010 by Saint_clark

[S-Clarke]

not really, it's helped us install a winning mentality as we actually lifted a trophy at Wembley.

 

and if you look at the stats, add back on the 10 pts and we're on course for a top 2 finish.

 

i think it's been a pretty good season all things considered.

[S-Clarke]

Short answer, yes.

 

A lot of people had a great day out at Wemberlee, I know.

 

Would have been better to go out of the JPT, get 6 extra points, and have that Wemberlee visit at the end of May.

 

The FA cup run was a complete nuisance, but strangely enough it might have been the kick-in-the-pants responsible for our run-in form.

 

thats a silly way to look at it, you go into every single game to win it - which we have done, and we found oursevles in 2 decent cup runs.

 

if you want a real example of a cup run damaging the league - look at Leeds.

did you expect us to throw cup games so we could win promotion? i think you'll find that would have had a worse effect on our form.

Edited 19 April, 2010 by S-Clarke

[Thedelldays]

not really, it's helped us install a winning mentality as we actually lifted a trophy at Wembley.

 

and if you look at the stats, add back on the 10 pts and we're on course for a top 2 finish.

 

i think it's been a pretty good season all things considered.

I agree...but would anyone swap the JPT final for a playoff final..

 

or the game against pompey to finish 6th..?

[Block 5]

I agree...but would anyone swap the JPT final for a playoff final..

 

or the game against pompey to finish 6th..?

 

If there's some way of doing that then yes.

Do we apply to the football league to do the swap, or do we have to collect ring pulls from cans of Coke?

[The Kraken]

It's a completely redundant question as there can be no proof either way as to whether the cups increased or diminished our promotion.

 

You're suggesting that the cups were responsible for us not winning some subsequent games. But conveniently forgetting that we only played two league games at home (won 1, lost 1) following a cup tie. So in effect you're either criticising the team for not winning all of their away games, or for losing one home game, which is a frankly bizarre accusation.

 

In any case, if you do blame the cup input for losing some subsequent games then you must also give credit to the cups for inspiring:

 

Going on a 3 game league winning streak after beating Torquay;

Going on a 3 game league winning streak after beating Northampton;

Going unbeaten in January while beating Luton in the FA Cup and MK Dons in the JPT;

Winning 3 out of 4 league games after an excellent performance in the Portsmouth FA Cup game;

 

The benefit or downfall of competing (and competing well) in the cups will never be known, and analysing only the next game is far too simplistic an approach. On the flip side, how much benefit the team will have gained from putting away the likes of Norwich, Leeds, Ipswich, MK Dons just cannot be quanitified by any accurate method either.

Edited 19 April, 2010 by The Kraken

[Foxstone]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course !

 

While I think it crowded our schedule a bit, I tend to agree with Clarkey above.

 

I am convinced the cup runs have instilled a winning mentality within the squad, not least proof if ever we needed it that we can turn over the likes of Norwich and Charlton. Up until those times we were having difficulty getting results out of the top teams in our league.

 

And notwithstanding having a great day out, the JPT is at least a trophy banked!

[itchen_dan]

The only thing that has cost us in the cups is the chopping and changing of the side due to many players being cup-tied. I dont think it's the actual cup runs, just the fact that we were unable to get a settled team together.

 

If you look at how we've done after the JPT Final and FA Cup v Pompey - It is very good and I wouldnt be concerned if we went in with the same mentality to the cups next season because every round brings money and the chance to play higher opposition.

[saint_stevo]

OK, forgetting the league cup games because they were both in the first 10 of the season, our cup ties are as such;

 

Gillingham home (W), Torquay cup (W), Southend away (W)

Leyton Orient away (D), Rovers cup (W), Charlton cup (W), Brighton home (L)

Hartlepool away (W), Northampton cup (W), Wycombe home (W)

Tranmere home (W), Norwich cup (W), Leeds away (L)

Colchester away (L), Luton cup (W), Millwall away (D)

Millwall away (D), MK Dons cup (W), Ipswich cup (W), Brentford away (D)

Exeter away (D), MK Dons cup (W) Pompey cup (L), Norwich away (W)

Hartlepool home (W), Carlisle cup (W), Brighton away (D)

 

Take from that what you will, but some of those results (including Brentford away) don't look so bad in retrospect.

 

Wrong

[Colinjb]

The cups did take our focus away from the league, but frankly, I don't care.

 

For the first time in my life Saints have put a trophy into the cabinet. I couldn't care less about the lack of status the competition had, it's a priceless memory and I feel utterly blessed to have been there.

 

We are in a stronger place to push up the leagues next year. I cannot wait for next season.

[eastleighhalo]

The cup runs had no bearing at all IMO..it was just the bare facts that we hardly had a pre season.. didnt have a proper team when the season kicked off ..and that it took us NINE games to register our first win.

[Scudamore]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry play-offs.

 

Best not to have regrets Dulldays. They'll eat you up inside.

 

Everything happens for a reason. The reason here being we're gonna smash this league next year! Or so i'm told...

[scott_saints]

To sum up:

 

Maybe yes, maybe no. If yes, then you can't prove it. If no, then you can't prove it.

[Scudamore]

To sum up:

 

Maybe yes, maybe no. If yes, then you can't prove it. If no, then you can't prove it.

 

Did you enjoy the JPT Final Scott Bakula? I did very much.

[Saint_clark]

Wrong

 

In your opinion.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

we have dropped something like 22 points from the games either side of a cup tie this season

 

that seems a massive amount..

 

We've also dropped a further 28 points at other points of the season so...

 

22 points dropped from 20 games (1 either side of the Cup games) = 1.1 points dropped per game.

 

28 points dropped from 26 games = 1.076 points dropped per game.

 

So have the cup games mattered. I say not.

[COMEONYOUREDS]

let it go

[Ponty]

Nope. They didn't. They underpinned the feeling that "unity is success" amongst the players and the fans. You can't buy the feelgood factor and you can't replace the feeling of winning with words of motivation. No alternative preparation was as good for the team as winning a cup.

[Thedelldays]

Nope. They didn't. They underpinned the feeling that "unity is success" amongst the players and the fans. You can't buy the feelgood factor and you can't replace the feeling of winning with words of motivation. No alternative preparation was as good for the team as winning a cup.

fact ..?

[Ponty]

As factual as anyone's opinion that they have dented the promotion push, of course.

 

Moreso than many, IMO

[Thedelldays]

As factual as anyone's opinion that they have dented the promotion push, of course.

 

Moreso than many, IMO

just asked a question ponteh

[benjii]

It's a completely redundant question as there can be no proof either way as to whether the cups increased or diminished our promotion.

 

You're suggesting that the cups were responsible for us not winning some subsequent games. But conveniently forgetting that we only played two league games at home (won 1, lost 1) following a cup tie. So in effect you're either criticising the team for not winning all of their away games, or for losing one home game, which is a frankly bizarre accusation.

 

In any case, if you do blame the cup input for losing some subsequent games then you must also give credit to the cups for inspiring:

 

Going on a 3 game league winning streak after beating Torquay;

Going on a 3 game league winning streak after beating Northampton;

Going unbeaten in January while beating Luton in the FA Cup and MK Dons in the JPT;

Winning 3 out of 4 league games after an excellent performance in the Portsmouth FA Cup game;

 

The benefit or downfall of competing (and competing well) in the cups will never be known, and analysing only the next game is far too simplistic an approach. On the flip side, how much benefit the team will have gained from putting away the likes of Norwich, Leeds, Ipswich, MK Dons just cannot be quanitified by any accurate method either.

 

This is clearly the correct answer.

[niceandfriendly]

It's a completely redundant question as there can be no proof either way as to whether the cups increased or diminished our promotion.

 

Absolutely, but I'm pretty sure this thread is a wind up. It must be. :confused:

[Blandford saint]

Seeing as the FA Cup, with one exception, is usually won by a team in the top 4 (this has been going on for many years), and Burnley went far in both cups when they got promoted last year, surely the evidence is that good teams win games. I don't think there is any suggestion that Chelsea's league form has been affected by them getting to the Cup Final.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yes, they could have dented our promotion chances but you can't afford to pick and choose which games you will turn up for. The additional revenue will also have come in useful, no matter how wealthy the owner, and I'm sure that Markus enjoyed his day in the sunshine.

[Doctoroncall]

We've also dropped a further 28 points at other points of the season so...

 

22 points dropped from 20 games (1 either side of the Cup games) = 1.1 points dropped per game.

 

28 points dropped from 26 games = 1.076 points dropped per game.

 

So have the cup games mattered. I say not.

 

Not sure what games you're picked as we've only played 42 league games so far.

[bpsaint]

S****horpe reached the JPT final last year and still managed to get promoted so don't think we can blame that. My blame lies with the 10 point deduction more than the cups.

[Ohio Saint]

To suggest that losing games in order to be a winning team sounds somewhat ass backwards. Whatever the end result of the overall season, i want a team that goes out to win every single game. That's what winners do.

[thefunkygibbons]

Season is not over yet, so we don't know

[Village Saint]

we have dropped something like 22 points from the games either side of a cup tie this season

 

that seems a massive amount..

 

As always winning in the Cups can only ever be a huge advantage. It helps develop confidence; gets the team gelling etc.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Not sure what games you're picked as we've only played 42 league games so far.

 

Yep, sorry, that's meant to say 28 from 22 which means an average of 1.27 points per game dropped for the remaining games. Which in fact means, on average, we have done better directly before and after Cup matches than we have done normally.

 

So TDD, Alpine, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[LA77]

I agree...but would anyone swap the JPT final for a playoff final..

 

or the game against pompey to finish 6th..?

 

I wouldn't swap the JPT trophy, but i'd have happily lost to luton in the 3rd round if it meant top 6. We won the first trophy in many Saints fans life time, so personally I wouldn't swap that for anything.

[trousers]

The only valid answer to the OP is "maybe, maybe not". But what worries me more is how the JPT outcome MAY end up affecting us in the near future rather than the recent past. I fear that Carlisle will raise their game when they play us next week to avenge the defeat at wembley. So, ironically perhaps, our JPT cup run may yet bite us in the arse...

[LA77]

The only valid answer to the OP is "maybe, maybe not". But what worries me more is how the JPT outcome MAY end up affecting us in the near future rather than the recent past. I fear that Carlisle will raise their game when they play us next week to avenge the defeat at wembley. So, ironically perhaps, our JPT cup run may yet bite us in the arse...

 

if they raise their game they might get a consolation 2nd goal this time

[up and away]

not really, it's helped us install a winning mentality as we actually lifted a trophy at Wembley.

 

and if you look at the stats, add back on the 10 pts and we're on course for a top 2 finish.

 

i think it's been a pretty good season all things considered.

 

That is just bollix. That winning mentality was drawing games to get into penalty shoot outs. Then we get our worse defeat of the season by Pompey, to set us up for Norwich. We definitely suffered from the cups, solely because we find it difficult to give consistent performances when playing twice a week. It's no where near 22 points worth that the cups cost us, but certainly enough to blow the play off's out of the water now. Pardew admitted in print he prioritised the cups because of the -10 points deduction, totally fecking dumb.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

As always winning in the Cups can only ever be a huge advantage. It helps develop confidence; gets the team gelling etc.

 

Agree. Can't understand why some fans hate the cups so much. I would hate saints to become a club who ddn't try to win every game including cup games. Othrwise you are cheating the fans. I hope AP continues to take all competitions seriously.

[trousers]

 

That is just bollix. That winning mentality was drawing games to get into penalty shoot outs. Then we get our worse defeat of the season by Pompey, to set us up for Norwich. We definitely suffered from the cups, solely because we find it difficult to give consistent performances when playing twice a week. It's no where near 22 points worth that the cups cost us, but certainly enough to blow the play off's out of the water now. Pardew admitted in print he prioritised the cups because of the -10 points deduction, totally fecking dumb.

 

That does seem like a 'dumb' statement. When someone says they ate prioritising one thing above another it obviously means that they are giving less attention to something else. I'm in the 'happy to stick with pardew camp' but admitting that you've not given 100% to the league (by natural deduction) is a strange admission

[LA77]

That does seem like a 'dumb' statement. When someone says they ate prioritising one thing above another it obviously means that they are giving less attention to something else. I'm in the 'happy to stick with pardew camp' but admitting that you've not given 100% to the league (by natural deduction) is a strange admission

 

I honestly believe the cups have got nothing to do with our league form (or lack of it during our cup runs). A lot of our players were cup tied, so we could field fringe players for the JPT. It's all ifs and buts anyway. Maybe a few twists and turns left this season, so we're not out of the race yet

[Doctoroncall]

Yep, sorry, that's meant to say 28 from 22 which means an average of 1.27 points per game dropped for the remaining games. Which in fact means, on average, we have done better directly before and after Cup matches than we have done normally.

 

So TDD, Alpine, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

Thought so, but need confirmation. It's certainly an appropriate analysis to compare the two sets of results.

[Glasgow_Saint]

without the cup run we could have been relegated

[sadoldgit]

No one knows (apart from our lucky fans with crystal balls). It did hurt clubs that have done doubles and trebles and you could argue that good cup runs increase confidence and help performances in league games. perhaps without good cup runs we wouldnot be doing so well now? You only have to look at some of the points dropped by some of the other "top" teams to see that long cup runs don't affect their ability to put in a cr*p performance.

 

We must be one of the only clubs who have won b*gger all for years and finally win something then moan about it!!!