Mr saint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 Looking at the teams in the Premiership, Championship and League 1, I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. OK, obviously nowhere near in comparison to the amount of money involved, but what I consider to be big clubs. Perhaps I've just become very accustomed to this league, but looking at our potential fixtures for next season I feel like there's some big teams in there who I could imagine in the top flight (good stadiums/fanbases etc.)...whereas there's very few in league 1. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 (edited) The promoted teams from League One in 2009/10 in the Championship in 2010/11... Norwich 2nd Leeds 7th Millwall 8th ...Suggests you are wrong Edited 3 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 No. Norwich, Leeds and Millwall have all done very well in the NPC after going straight up. You never see all 3 promoted teams finishing in the top 10 in the Prem first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 The longest thread title? And the answer is, no. The gap between CCC and Premier is bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 The championship is pretty much as i remember it - the major difference between NPC and L1 is depth. Whereas there are only a handful of good teams in L1, there are ten or twelve decent ones in CCC. Four of those will go on an unbeaten run after Feb. The rest of the league is dross. And of course the old, trusted cliche that anyone can beat anyone on their day applies with extra force. The transition from championship to the premiership is a totally different challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 biggest difference is that the majority of clubs in Championship have known better days, and are all capable of going on good runs which drags in their hidden support. nothing to fear as long as we start well and continue the momentum from this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobysaint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 I think it totally depends on which teams go up and down. If like last season you are up against Newcastle and WBA it makes automatic much harder, unlike this year where Pompey, Hull and Burnley came down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joesaint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 Don't think its a massive step to be honest and actually think the current squad would do very well, have to say that I would like us to bring a couple of new players in although not sure what position. COYS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammysaint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 we have a squad who without any additions and based on lallana and chambo not comming back better then ever, would finish between 18-15th in the championship i reckon add 2 or 3 players plus more consistent performances from players like chambo and we have a top half Finnish to maybe playoff team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 Looking at the teams in the Premiership, Championship and League 1, I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. Thoughts? I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulstersaint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 The promoted teams from League One in 2009/10 in the Championship in 2010/11... Norwich 2nd Leeds 7th Millwall 8th ...Suggests you are wrong Agree - watched some Championship games on Sky this season and there is not much between Championship and League 1. But the Championship to bottom of Premier League is a huge step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMEONYOUREDS Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 No way just look at last years promoted teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. No way. Football is all about money and the gap between the football league and the PL is bigger because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 I can't remember who said it recently, but they said that before long it'll be a similar set of clubs yo-yoing between the nPC and the Premiership due to the finances of club because of the parachute payments. That sounds true to me, so perhaps one day there'll be a step up even within the same league (nPC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 Looking at the teams in the Premiership, Championship and League 1, I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. OK, obviously nowhere near in comparison to the amount of money involved, but what I consider to be big clubs. Perhaps I've just become very accustomed to this league, but looking at our potential fixtures for next season I feel like there's some big teams in there who I could imagine in the top flight (good stadiums/fanbases etc.)...whereas there's very few in league 1. Thoughts? How can you say that with Norwich promoted and Leeds and Millwall knocking on the door of the play-offs in their first season up? I think you've got it all wrong. I know what you're worried about but Saints will do just fine after they settle in any new players. What I think is clear is the gulf between BIG teams and SMALL teams, by BIG teams I mean those who have been in Division 1 at some stage of their history and the others who never gain the critical mass to do much more than find their level in the second division. The bigger teams can buy their way out of trouble in good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilchards Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 This is crazy, its all about having the winning touch, Saints have it big time and the players will continue to move towards the top of the Championship. Blackpool had it when they went to the Premiership, its only when you have a few injuries and the confidence factor slowly drains. Look at us a few years ago, we could not stop losing just like Sheff Weds and Plymouth, there comes a time when you hit rock bottom and the confidence slowly comes back again as you finally reach your level. I know for a fact that we would **** on 95% of the championship teams right now if we had a game saturday. Oh and we also will play on better pitches which will help us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 How can you say that with Norwich promoted and Leeds and Millwall knocking on the door of the play-offs in their first season up? I think you've got it all wrong. I know what you're worried about but Saints will do just fine after they settle in any new players. What I think is clear is the gulf between BIG teams and SMALL teams, by BIG teams I mean those who have been in Division 1 at some stage of their history and the others who never gain the critical mass to do much more than find their level in the second division. The bigger teams can buy their way out of trouble in good times. The bits in bold. This close season we can hit the ground running, NA will have already worked closely with NC, covering every eventuality and identifying just who we want, who we need and who we can afford. Get the players in early on and I can see us having a good season. The future is bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 13 of the last 18 teams promoted to the NPC are still there or in the prem, so I suspect the gap is doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chin Strain Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 I think it totally depends on which teams go up and down. If like last season you are up against Newcastle and WBA it makes automatic much harder, unlike this year where Pompey, Hull and Burnley came down. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 biggest difference is that the majority of clubs in Championship have known better days, and are all capable of going on good runs which drags in their hidden support. nothing to fear as long as we start well and continue the momentum from this season ummm not our strong point........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 Looking at the teams in the Premiership, Championship and League 1, I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. OK, obviously nowhere near in comparison to the amount of money involved, but what I consider to be big clubs. Perhaps I've just become very accustomed to this league, but looking at our potential fixtures for next season I feel like there's some big teams in there who I could imagine in the top flight (good stadiums/fanbases etc.)...whereas there's very few in league 1. Thoughts? Sorry, couldn't disagree more if I tried... We're already a good midtable Championship side, better than Millwall or Leeds. There is a very small gap between the Championship and League 1... The gap between the Premiership and the Championship is vast.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cestrian Saint Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 No. I watched Cardiff V QPR recently. Whilst there were some wonder goals in that game I have to say that the standard of football was far worse than the Prem. That's why the promoted teams struggle in the Prem year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer fan Posted 3 May, 2011 Share Posted 3 May, 2011 i recon we will do norwich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musesaint Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 i recon we will do norwich We could ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 We will cope with the gap between Lg1 and Championship because there's not much in it, the gap after that is the big one and that's where capital really matters but we'll be ok there as well because our 'grass roots up' policy will be bearing fruit by then (2 seasons away) and we have the capital as well. Yes, the future is not just bright its every colour of the rainbow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Bob Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried. I have to agree with Deppo. I reckon our current squad would have finished comfortably mid-table this season in the Championship, maybe even higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 There is a massive difference between Prem and NPC but not as much as, say five years ago in my opinion. There are always a few clubs in the Championship who are too big to be there whereas a lot of dross has crept into the Prem. Like Blackpool... Somehow Blackpool ever having been in the Premiership takes the shine off possible Prem status for Saints, it's like ****ging the girl of your dreams after your ugly little teenage cousin has had her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersubpuckett Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Totally disagree - although the NPC looks like it will be a very strong league next year with lots of big clubs (and I exclude Brighton from that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) I suppose you could look back at how we have held up against upper league oppostion in cup games (I know cup games have a slighty different vibe to league games but still) the last two seasons (with largely the same players). I think we've held up quite well. Ipswich was a finely balanced game which we won Pompey was a thrashing on paper, but anyone who was there would know that for the first half it was all saints. Blackpool you'd have had a hard time telling which one was the PL side (admittly blackpool wasn't the A team) ManU was very much saints playing really good football for 60mins untill fergie sent on his big guns. That gives me hope that we will do fine in the championship. Edited 4 May, 2011 by doddisalegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghq Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Norwich quoted at 6-4 on to come straight back down. I don't think you'd find Saints quoted that short anywhere for relegation from Npc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Somehow Blackpool ever having been in the Premiership takes the shine off possible Prem status for Saints, I kinda agree with you on this point, most of the teams in the bottom half play rough longish-ball physical football that for all the world looks like the stuff we've been used to in L1 and none of these unglamorous clubs seem to last very long. If I am correct only 7 teams have never been out of the PL and understandably all the best players tend to flock to them whilst all the the aging old journeymen who make up most of the clubs in the bottom half drift around from club-to-club as relegation and promotion take their course. Stoke's a good example with about 5 ex-Saints still playing despite us not being up there for 6 years. So they can't be very good teams can they and you are right just being like them in the future isn't very appealing at all. As for the girl of your dreams, best not to pine always for the prettiest as so often they can disappoint more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I suppose you could look back at we have held up againgst league oppostion in cup games (I know cup games have a slighty different vibe to league games but still) the last two seasons (with largely the same players). I think we've held up quite well. Ipswich was a finely balanced game which we won Pompey was a thrashing on paper, but anyone who was there would know that for the first half it was all saints. Blackpool you'd have had a hard time telling which one was the PL side (admittly blackpool wasn't the A team) ManU was very much saints playing really good football for 60mins untill fergie sent on his big guns. That gives me hope that we will do fine in the championship. Good points... Pompey only beat us by fielding players that they really shouldn't have been allowed to sign as they were trading whilst insolvent and shouldn't have been allowed to use the transfer window. 3 of their goalscorers should have been illegible... Man Utd, as pointed out, only really out played us then they brought on the big guns. Their reserves would out play any Championship side and we met them pound for pound... I'm absolutely sure we'd be top ten with this squad. A few quality additions and the play offs are a real possibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under Weststand Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Op couldn't be more wrong, even if we didn't strengthen we'd still compete at NPC level, this is a much better team than got us relegated. The jump to the Prem is a totally different story. Whilst you can compete up 1 division a 2nd jump would probably be to much for most a few would do it for us Fonte, Lallana & Chamberlain if still here, Dickson may grow into it, but as with Norwich they will have to get a few in or they will be in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Op couldn't be more wrong, even if we didn't strengthen we'd still compete at NPC level, this is a much better team than got us relegated. The jump to the Prem is a totally different story. Whilst you can compete up 1 division a 2nd jump would probably be to much for most a few would do it for us Fonte, Lallana & Chamberlain if still here, Dickson may grow into it, but as with Norwich they will have to get a few in or they will be in trouble. We'd have a chance of survival with this team in the Prem (the likes of Blackpool, Wigan and Wolves could stay up - so could we) but we wouldn't want to be relegation threatened again really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Op couldn't be more wrong, even if we didn't strengthen we'd still compete at NPC level, this is a much better team than got us relegated. The jump to the Prem is a totally different story. Whilst you can compete up 1 division a 2nd jump would probably be to much for most a few would do it for us Fonte, Lallana & Chamberlain if still here, Dickson may grow into it, but as with Norwich they will have to get a few in or they will be in trouble. Completely agree. And with the greatest of respect to the OP, I sometimes wonder why posters start these sort of threads? Look at how well Norwich, Leeds and Millwall have done this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I suppose you could look back at we have held up againgst league oppostion in cup games (I know cup games have a slighty different vibe to league games but still) the last two seasons (with largely the same players). I think we've held up quite well. Ipswich was a finely balanced game which we won Pompey was a thrashing on paper, but anyone who was there would know that for the first half it was all saints. Blackpool you'd have had a hard time telling which one was the PL side (admittly blackpool wasn't the A team) ManU was very much saints playing really good football for 60mins untill fergie sent on his big guns. That gives me hope that we will do fine in the championship. Can never read too much into cup runs as you always get teams from lower leagues raising their game against higher opposition, if you used that as a marker, there'd be all sorts of random teams that should supposedly be able to compete at a higher level. Having said that I do agree that the current squad we have should at least be competitive at Championship level, would say its still a good 2 or 3 players away from a play-off side though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Nelson Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 We will do well in the NCP with the current squad because there isn't much between that and L1. The question in my mind is whether we want to go straight up into the PL. If that is what we're aiming for then we need already now to consider what players we want to have in the team in August 2012, and to make sure that at least some of them have played together before. An all out attempt for consecutive promotion requires additions also for those reasons. What will also be nice is to see our team coming properly prepared to the party. A well thought out and committed pre-season would be a nice change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr saint Posted 4 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I wasn't talking about the standard of play or the money being thrown around. More about the "size" of the club, i.e. fanbases, stadium sizes and facilities etc. I would imagine (I haven't done any research though so am probably wrong), that the gap between the average attendances between the Premier League* and Championship is smaller than the gap between the average attendances between the Championship and League 1. * Ok, maybe excluding Man United, Arsenal, Newcastle etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) I wasn't talking about the standard of play or the money being thrown around. More about the "size" of the club, i.e. fanbases, stadium sizes and facilities etc. I would imagine (I haven't done any research though so am probably wrong), that the gap between the average attendances between the Premier League* and Championship is smaller than the gap between the average attendances between the Championship and League 1. You are wrong... Average Premier League crowd 2010/11 = 35,000 Average Championship Crowd 2010/11 = 17,000 Average League One crowd 2010/11 = 7,000 Edited 4 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 May, 2011 Share Posted 5 May, 2011 Looking at the teams in the Premiership, Championship and League 1, I've come to the conclusion that the step up between League 1 and The Championship is bigger than the gap between the Championship and Premier League. OK, obviously nowhere near in comparison to the amount of money involved, but what I consider to be big clubs. Perhaps I've just become very accustomed to this league, but looking at our potential fixtures for next season I feel like there's some big teams in there who I could imagine in the top flight (good stadiums/fanbases etc.)...whereas there's very few in league 1. Thoughts? Whilst what you said may seem logical...I think it's harder to STAY in the Prem. than it is to stay in CCC. Some teams in CCC (and L1 for that matter) have been there for a decade or more without being relegated or promoted. The best often go up because of the poor standard in CCC (except this season it has been exceptionally good down to 9/10th spot...) and usually teams with debt problems / old squads are candidaites for the drop to L1. ..and occasionally..a team relegated from Prem. may go down again in 1-2 seasons.. (We did and so too did Charlton). I have noted in seasons past that maybe ONE team is lucky enough to survive a promotion to Prem. and often at least ONE or TWO (promoted) sides have come back down the first season. Our loss in the play-offs with Derby was a travesty as they had the worst Premiership record ever when they went up instead of us. Note: I don't think Brighton will do so well in CCC , despite a larger stadium and fanbase that may exist. They may start well but I'd be surprised to see them above mid-table by May 2012..even if Poyet does stay and not move to a "bigger " London club. ...and I wonder if they've really enough money to continue paying interest on a ...£93 million stadium.!! By mid season they wish they'd cut a few corners , and saved £10-15 million to improve the squad to ensure a promotion push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 May, 2011 Share Posted 5 May, 2011 You are wrong... Average Premier League crowd 2010/11 = 35,000 **** see my note below Average Championship Crowd 2010/11 = 17,000 Average League One crowd 2010/11 = 7,000 *** Not looked closely at stats, but I think the "mastadon-sized " stadiums in Manchester, and at the Emirates artificially inflate those figures somewhat. Many of the other prem sides don't have a capacity much over 35K, and some of them may struggle to meet our 21K average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 May, 2011 Share Posted 5 May, 2011 (edited) We'd have a chance of survival with this team in the Prem (the likes of Blackpool, Wigan and Wolves could stay up - so could we) but we wouldn't want to be relegation threatened again really. I don't think many of us would expect "this team " to be represented in the Prem in 2-3 years time - would we ? I think the "squad " will be about the same next season..maybe 2-3 additions, and perhaps not all the " regulars" who played this season, but certainly good enough to get in to the top six ..or better - if we can maintain this current form. Premiership ..? If we go up straight away (like Norwich) ...I expect to see Fonte, Richardson ..and even Harding still regulars. Lallana, Stephens, even Chaplow in midfield..and perhaps Chamberlain and Schneiderlin - if they both stay. Lambert (and Connolly-if over his injury problems) ..would justifiably be rewarded with one Prem. season...and monitor the outcome. Kelvin Davis (maintaining form?) would still be first choice, though I'd expect (ex goalie Adkins to find a new custodian)- not Bart. those empty spaces ..would be the investments needed and with Nicola Cortese doling out some Liebherr family money to consolidate our Premiership place. Edited 5 May, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 6 May, 2011 Share Posted 6 May, 2011 I wasn't talking about the standard of play or the money being thrown around. More about the "size" of the club, i.e. fanbases, stadium sizes and facilities etc. I would imagine (I haven't done any research though so am probably wrong), that the gap between the average attendances between the Premier League* and Championship is smaller than the gap between the average attendances between the Championship and League 1. * Ok, maybe excluding Man United, Arsenal, Newcastle etc. But that has nothing to do with "making the step up", which is based on on-pitch performance. In the Football League you don't get relegated due to having small crowds, you get relegated due to not having many points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 6 May, 2011 Share Posted 6 May, 2011 You are wrong... Average Premier League crowd 2010/11 = 35,000 Average Championship Crowd 2010/11 = 17,000 Average League One crowd 2010/11 = 7,000 Trouble is the average League 1 gate is dragged down by the minnows that get home gates of 3000 ish. I'd expect there to be a bit more homogenity in the NPC although there are obvious exceptions who get 5/6K. If you drew up a list I'd think more clubs would be closer to the mean in the NPC than in L1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 6 May, 2011 Share Posted 6 May, 2011 (edited) Whilst what you said may seem logical...I think it's harder to STAY in the Prem. than it is to stay in CCC. . Just to prove you can prove anything with statistics : There are 20 teams in the Prem, of which 3 are relegated, so there's a 15% chance of NOT staying in the Prem. There are 24 teams in the nPC, 3 promoted and 3 relegated, so there's a 25% chance of NOT staying in the Championship. Therefore it is 10% easier to stay in the Prem than the Championship. Of course this assumes parity for all clubs at the start of the season in terms of playing staff and financial clout / ability to sign better players, and is therefore tangibly b011ocks. Edited 6 May, 2011 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stcappy Posted 6 May, 2011 Share Posted 6 May, 2011 I think the gap is smaller in the first season than it is in the second season. Momentum takes you a long way in year 1, but it's how you manage the second season up there if your not one of the lucky few that manage successive promotions to the premier league. Our advantage in both seasons is our anticipated potential resource to compete within the top 6 teams in spend and wage terms, and our existing strong spine to the team at that level - Davis, Fonte, schneiderlin, lallana, and lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 May, 2011 Share Posted 6 May, 2011 Just to prove you can prove anything with statistics : There are 20 teams in the Prem, of which 3 are relegated, so there's a 15% chance of NOT staying in the Prem. There are 24 teams in the nPC, 3 promoted and 3 relegated, so there's a 25% chance of NOT staying in the Championship. Therefore it is 10% easier to stay in the Prem than the Championship. Of course this assumes parity for all clubs at the start of the season in terms of playing staff and financial clout / ability to sign better players, and is therefore tangibly b011ocks. I think you missed the point I was making....because my argument was not about the 15% chance, but that the teams that are relegated are inevitably those newly-promoted clubs who are suddenly thrust into games against established sides who can boast 6-8 internationals, or like Chelsea / Man.U .... a bench with 50+ international caps sitting on it. I'm not looking at stats. but many sides (promoted) are totally unprepared (mentally and fiscally) are become cannon-fodder for the top six and mid-table sides who have learned to adapt and survive. They talk about the £60 million they may get from the TV rights but multi million pound signings + the salaries to go with them soon eat up that money. (imagine a " small squad " of say 25 players getting between 15K / 50 K a week, and work that out over a season, and even record attendances don't cover a fraction of that, and they are relegated almost bankrupt;alal Leeds, Charlton, Hull and even SAINTS (c.2005) The " survival " is not a mathematical problem, but a cultural one. There is no league in the world like the Prem. and only the fittest survive..even if they do have good players it's no guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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