St Mary's - What we might expect to see happen (and possibly announced soon)...

[moonraker]

Pompey did not try an "exclusivity model" they just didn't bother investing in their stadium.

 

Apple do control supply as part of their model. If Ipads were stacked high in the foyer of Asda at £200 a pop (true universal supply) they'd sell a hell of a lot more than they do now, but they wouldn't make anywhere near as profitably, and long term probably prove to be an error.

 

Pursuing exclusivity in football clubs is actually very sensible. One factor in selling season tickets is that it is a guaranteed seat for the Man United game. If the stadium was so big that Man U tickets could be snapped up by wandering up on the day before, a key incentive to buy a season ticket is gone. Don't underrate exclusivity in football my old son.

 

And maintaining a premium on tickets is also vital. All the bright sparks on here seem determined to massively downvalue cost per seat but this is madness from a business point of view.

 

And building permanent seating on a football stadium is not the same as Tesco or Sainsbury's "planning for an upswing in demand", those flipping seats are there and will be there forever once they are in. I'll repeat again, most businesses including Tesco do not go out to sell as much of their thing as humanly possible. They sell as much as they can as profitably as possible. Massive, massive difference. Churning and churning and churning out more product than anyone really wants is not a sustainable business model.

 

Funnily enough, a 32,000 stadium with 30,000 people paying £50/£55 a ticket probably is perfectly sustainable (after all, their is MASSIVE demand out there according to the geniuses on here) and requires zero capital expenditure whatsoever, so all that cash on the pitch. Lovely.

Thanks for a thoughtful and though provoking response. My reference to the phew was obviously tongue in cheek!

 

I still don’t accept your Apple argument they control the retailing yes, as do many exclusive brands, this is not really the same as controlling the supply as I said do you know anyone who wants an Apple product but cant get one.

I can’t agree with but do understand you point about exclusivity, my problem with it is the next step is elitism and there is no place for that in football supporting circles.

 

Going by the rate at which Tesco’s and Sainsburys are building and opening local stores in here in Bath they are certainly making capital investments in infrastructure that will be there for a long time. You point juxtaposing selling as much as is possible and profitability is as I stated most often constrained by factors outside the direct control of the business or factors that usually lag the upswings in demand i.e. production and recruitment. Nowhere in my argument am I advocating increasing capacity beyond a sustainable level, where I fundamentally disagree with the don’t expand argument is I believe, initially in the short term, that in the prem we can regularly (not always) attract larger crowds than SM can accommodate and if we build on our success and become an established top half prem team able to have a crack at the top six spots then the occasions when SM will be seen to be to small will increase and we will have lost an opportunity to maximise revenue and therefore improve our chances of sustaining the club at the levle we all desire.

 

And your final point is the key reason why I prefer expansion, if those became the standard ticket prices many long standing Saints Fans would be disenfranchised due to cost. Some would ration their attendance some would give up all together and as for taking your family and bringing on the future generations of fans this would be beyond most people.

 

A very good point was raised earlier in the thread wrt NC doing his homework to establish whether expansion is right for the business the fact that he has mentioned more than once publicly tends to suggest the evidence is tending towards an extension.

50k plus a Wembley whilst one off it is an indicator tough and should not to be dismissed, also how many are on the database?

 

Apologies to those who complained for continuing the economics debate, but essentially ground extension is just that a debate about the clubs economics.

[CB Fry]

1. Ah, so one poster mentioned the kids for a quid. That's a really conclusive groundswell of opinion for that idea then.

 

2. So you can't find any reference to anybody suggesting that the expansion of the stadium was for the purpose of making tickets cheaper for everyone (your quote), so you typically put your own form of spin on your reply to disguise your inability to respond to the question asked. Fair enough then.

 

Exactly how do you put ticket decreases through but not for everyone? Do tell because I have seen the uproar on here from ST holders when special offers are announced.

[Wes Tender]

Quote: CB Fry:

We may be planning to expand sometime. But people need to forget the idea that we are doing it to make tickets cheaper for everyone.

 

You still haven't named anybody who has suggested this, so I must assume that you cannot.

 

And I'm not going to waste my time debating some flannel of your own making in your attempt to divert attention away from the fact that you haven't named anybody who suggested that.

[CB Fry]

Quote: CB Fry:

 

You still haven't named anybody who has suggested this, so I must assume that you cannot.

 

And I'm not going to waste my time debating some flannel of your own making in your attempt to divert attention away from the fact that you haven't named anybody who suggested that.

 

What, apart from the people talking about the Bundesliga model, the people talking about reducing ticket prices all over this thread. I don't see swathes of caveats from them about "BUT NOT FOR EVERYONE". So really I have no idea what point you are desperately scratching around for.

 

If ticket prices are going to come down in this wonderful vision, then they will come down for everyone, that is the justification for expansion from pretty much every supporter on this thread.

 

Truly, truly mental.

[Thedelldays]

What, apart from the people talking about the Bundesliga model, the people talking about reducing ticket prices all over this thread. I don't see swathes of caveats from them about "BUT NOT FOR EVERYONE". So really I have no idea what point you are desperately scratching around for.

to be fair...about 1 person is talking about the bundesliga model....

[The9]

If you lot don't stop this I'm going to start a new kit thread.

 

Something along the lines of "how would you feel if Saints didn't wear red and white stripes?" would probably do as good a job of getting the same kind of repetitive arguments.

[sotonjoe]

Interesting to look at ticket cost vs crowd numbers....Judging that we are somewhere between stoke and everton ticket prices don't need to change much next season.....

Good comparison of those charts. FWIW though, I can't see the club not seeing promotion as an opportunity to raise ticket prices, even though you're quite right that we're already in the ballpark when it comes to average prices. There's clearly a difference between northern and southern / london prices and I can't see us pricing our tickets down at the very bottom end.Perhaps we could hope for adult prices in the different stands falling in the £30-35 category, but I'm not sure how realistic that is at all.

[CB Fry]

to be fair...about 1 person is talking about the bundesliga model....

 

Plenty are talking about reducing prices mate.

[Thedelldays]

Plenty are talking about reducing prices mate.

 

trust me, i do see your point...but how many is plenty..?

and I'm sure, IF..BIG IF the club decides to expand SMS...then it would have been thought through etc etc

[doddisalegend]

Good comparison of those charts. FWIW though, I can't see the club not seeing promotion as an opportunity to raise ticket prices, even though you're quite right that we're already in the ballpark when it comes to average prices. There's clearly a difference between northern and southern / london prices and I can't see us pricing our tickets down at the very bottom end.Perhaps we could hope for adult prices in the different stands falling in the £30-35 category, but I'm not sure how realistic that is at all.

 

Sadly I agree with you .....at the moment I'm having horrible visions of being priced out of being able to watch saints on a regular basis so I was clutching at straws that maybe the club don't need to hike up their ticket prices just becuase we're in the PL (but I'm pretty sure they will)

[Turkish]

Because that's how business works. Supply and demand.

 

If you buy in volume you buy at cheaper prices - just look at how the supermarkets price offers.

 

Same goes for selling, a larger supply will lead to a drop in price unless demand rises to meet the extra supply.

 

If they kept the current ticket prices I don't think demand would rise sufficiently therefore prices would have to come down but that would be OK as long as overall profit went up (after all the expansion financing\admin costs).

 

Selling 48,000 seats @ £20 gives you more revenue than 30,000 seats @ £25 so from the club's perspective they would still make more money + they get a load more fans in generating a more hostile atmosphere (hopefully).

 

That's a very simplistic example, in reality I'm sure there would be lots of offers (like the supermarket) but if done correctly the overall effect should be to increase profit.

 

I think it's possible but they'd be walking a tightrope between making a good profit on a packed stadium vs making a potential loss on an empty stadium.

 

So we are going to get promoted, not be able to sell out our 32k stadium, reduce prices to do this and still you think we should expand? I'm glad you aren't running my business.

[moonraker]

Im hoping for fair and affordable pricing for all not just cheap pricing. Expand capcity and keep current prices no bother dont expand and signicantly hike prices wont be impressed. The table provided above is interetsing and the mid table (pricing table) prices seem very fair.

[Turkish]

You totally misunderstand or ignore my point (although i am sure that is no accident ) The Dell held and sold out approx 15K. There was a waiting list for STs but it wasn't very big, possibly around 2k. There were no massive queues for the few general sale tickets available for the majority of games. Why? Because many simply accepted that they couldn't get tickets so didn't even try. SMS built. Suddenly all those that would have liked to go to the odd game at The Dell but didn't try to get tickets could go to pretty much any game they liked. In no time they became regulars and several, by no means all, games sold out (talking PL days obviously). It got to the stage where casual fans found it difficult - not impossible - to get tickets, or were unable to sit with mates/family etc. Bear in mind if a ground is 80% full that's not one big empty section, it's lots of ones and twos dotted around all over the place. Anything showing a regular (not EVERY game) attendance above that level should seriously consider expanding. By making it easier for casual fans to attend and get in the habit of attending you will increase the hardcore regular support. (this is of course on the assumption that you don't continuously play ****, get relegated etc). I don't think anyone thinks we would sell out a 40k+ ground for a league game against Fulham, but there's plenty of games that we would do. Simply building to cater for your smallest likely crowd is no different than building a team on the pitch to simply keep ourselves up but not challenge for anything.

 

As for your point that we don't sell out now in this div, ManUre did not sell out OT every game when they were in Old Div 2 (not even close). Did they stop and think the ground was big enough when they were in the top flight ? No they expanded again and again and again and every time more people came. Has any team not increased their attendance after promotion? Bear in mind most will have played attractive football to be in that position. Its a (sad) fact of life that the PL is a bigger crowd puller than other leagues. I do agree there's nothing worse than seeing empty seats but is there any club that has expanded their ground and not seen an increase in attendance?

 

3rd post, over and out

 

F*ck me, we must be the only club in the country where fans dont even try to get tickets depsite being desperate to go. Tottenham have a waiting list of 13k for season tickets, Newcastle had one similar when they were in the top 4. Arsenal had a waiting list with tens of thousands of members on it and ballot systems for tickets which meant they knew they could fill a 60k stadium. Not us though, our fans just dont bother trying if they dont think they can get them.

[stev2001]

Do we actually know why cortese wants to expand? I think it's to do with making the stadium more profitable through corporate and other avenues rather than just bums on seats. To add any these things, the up side is more seats and if they are not used every week I dont think that's his main concern. I think it's been said before that he is not happy with the lack of money making potential of the ground. I think this may be why he may consider building a new ground to fully explore these other avenues. What these are I don't know but you can guarantee he's has done all the Maths to see if this is worth while LONG TERM. I really think we need to fully back what every he has in mind and if he is looking to expand then this must be good for the club.

[sotonjoe]

Sadly I agree with you .....at the moment I'm having horrible visions of being priced out of being able to watch saints on a regular basis so I was clutching at straws that maybe the club don't need to hike up their ticket prices just becuase we're in the PL (but I'm pretty sure they will)

 

When / if questioned they would inevitably argue that increases are needed to help us achieve what we want to achieve won't they?

 

I'm prepare to accept another £100 on the price of my season ticket without really flinching, but I think I'll start wondering "Why" if it goes up by considerably more than that.

[suewhistle]

This all points to an increase in SMS capacity being highly unlikely, it just doesn't make economic sense. If we stay in the Prem and start getting better and better then demand for tickets will increase - the response to this will be to increase prices, not extend the ground.

 

Ouir problem in deciding this issue is that we don't have the figures: the likely costs, the cost of capital/interest (almost certainly a lot cheaper than when Lowe was around for a number of reasons.), the likely revenue. But in general terms I disagree with your premise as if it were true nobody else would be investing in infrastructure either. In what way are Saints different? Unless you're saying it would be cheaper to start from scratch on a larger site.:-)

[Turkish]

Ouir problem in deciding this issue is that we don't have the figures: the likely costs, the cost of capital/interest (almost certainly a lot cheaper than when Lowe was around for a number of reasons.), the likely revenue. But in general terms I disagree with your premise as if it were true nobody else would be investing in infrastructure either. In what way are Saints different? Unless you're saying it would be cheaper to start from scratch on a larger site.:-)

 

Why almost certainly a lot cheaper than when lowe was around? Back then it was quoted as £3k per seat to expand, so 6k expansion would equal £18m. Why would the cost dramtically of come down?

 

 

Well done on posting without mentioning Alpine is on ignore BTW. you see you can do it.

[stev2001]

Could a new st Mary's be a hotel, snow dome and shopping centre?

[dune]

The bottom line is that if we want to re-establish ourselves in the Premiership and make it sustainable we need to grow. St Marys is a hindrance to growth IMO. We need to build for the future out of town and tap into the region. Personally i'd like see some ambition and for us to build big at around 45K. This would set us up for a generation. All Pompey did was squander money (that they didnt have) on players and they have nothing to show for their good times.

[doddisalegend]

Could a new st Mary's be a hotel, snow dome and shopping centre?

 

Only if we move it somewhere like Milton Keynes .....Welwyn Garden City saints anyone.....

[stev2001]

Only if we move it somewhere like Milton Keynes .....Welwyn Garden City saints anyone.....

Or Stoneham

I trust Nicola will do the right thing, long term. Spending £15m on a training facility is not financially viable short term but long term will set up for generations. So spending £18m on the stadium is penny's in the long term plan for saints.

[SNSUN]

Aren't Reading's new owners struggling with the Fit and Proper persons test?.

 

Anton (and his brother Denis) were in my year at school, and both are very nice, decent people. It's ben said however that their father has links to the Russian mafia. http://www.rumafia.com/person.php?id=204

 

I doubt it would affect Anton's chances of taking the club over though. Reading could be going places. Let's hope we remain the biggest club in the south of England. :-)

[Turkish]

regardless of any of this though we need to take everything MLG says with a huge pinch of salt. lest we forget it was him that claimed we should pay players what they want and were the most attractive team for a player to join outside of the top four in the premier league. When we were in league one.

[Thedelldays]

regardless of any of this though we need to take everything MLG says with a huge pinch of salt. lest we forget it was him that claimed we should pay players what they want and were the most attractive team for a player to join outside of the top four in the premier league. When we were in league one.

agree shipmate...if it happens, it happens...if it does not. we have a stadium very much adequate for us

[100%Red&White]

If any expansion is to take place I would imagine it would be done in stages starting with the Kingsland. It could probably add 7 or 8,000 but the clincher here would be that it would include another row of lucrative corporate boxes and suites, this is where the real money could be made to cover costs - should we stay in the Premiership and, as Cortese has said is the target, European football nights.

[Turkish]

If any expansion is to take place I would imagine it would be done in stages starting with the Kingsland. It could probably add 7 or 8,000 but the clincher here would be that it would include another row of lucrative corporate boxes and suites, this is where the real money could be made to cover costs - should we stay in the Premiership and, as Cortese has said is the target, European football nights.

 

There was one stand that cant be extended, i think it may be the Kingsland.

[Bearsy]

If they made the seats 20-30% smaller then we could increase capacity by nearly 10K without having to extend the stands at all! That would surely be cheaper options???

 

We would need to get smaller fans tho and some of the fat ones wouldn't be able to come no more but i think it's worth the sacrifice. Maybe that's why we signed Lee cos he gets in the asian fans and they is smaller?

[dune]

There was one stand that cant be extended, i think it may be the Kingsland.

 

The difficult I do at once. The impossible takes a bit longer.

 

Jordan Sibley - Southampton FC club spokesman.

[The Kraken]

If you build it, they will come!

 

It applies everywhere except Wigan

 

And Darlington.

 

And Milton Keynes.

 

And Blackburn.

 

And Coventry.

 

And Middlesbrough.

 

And on and on.....

[Thedelldays]

There was one stand that cant be extended, i think it may be the Kingsland.

thought I would have been the itchen..?

[The Kraken]

thought I would have been the itchen..?

 

Correct. Northam and Chapel can have 4,000 extra each, Kingsland can have 8,000, potential capacity of 48,000.

[sotonjoe]

If we had a choice between a soulless out of town stadium like the Madejski (which isn't in walking distance of the town centre pubs etc) or staying in St Marys (even if wasn't expanded), I'd happily stay at St Marys forever.

[alehouseboys]

It's definitely the Itchen that there's issues with about expanding. It's not impossible, just more problematic and costly.

 

6-8,000 on top of the Kingsland would be plenty for us for the forseeable future...would be nice to get to 40k one day tho.

 

 

 

...and if we sell Lambert, Lallana and a couple of others it might pay to stretch across to incorporate a nice little train station for us home fans, right outside and damn handy...

[Frank's cousin]

What, apart from the people talking about the Bundesliga model, the people talking about reducing ticket prices all over this thread. I don't see swathes of caveats from them about "BUT NOT FOR EVERYONE". So really I have no idea what point you are desperately scratching around for.

 

If ticket prices are going to come down in this wonderful vision, then they will come down for everyone, that is the justification for expansion from pretty much every supporter on this thread.

 

Truly, truly mental.

 

NO this is not correect - if you read the posts carefully what expansion allows is a more flexibilty - its been said on numerous occasions - this can come in many forms and is regulated by supply and demand - you look at the 'gold games' games where demand is high and its all £45 a ticket, you look at so called brinze games and provide a lower max but also a spread with cheap kids deals available by certain deadlines - When this is done, you add up the total and discount that for STs so they always get the best deal - its not rocket science - If the model/forecast cmbined with all the other aspects of a feasibility study + feedback on appropriate marketing shows an overall revenue advantage, its worth considering.

 

Of course it all depends on the source and cost associated with any funding - and that no one has a clue about - high interest loans and its a no go - low interset longer term owner funding and its possible as this does not impact on funding for on the field activities. I just found your blank dismissal of the discussion rather crude - and your assumptions that no one on here understands the principles, difficulties and requirements for a go decision discourteous at best.

 

Even those that are pure unadulterated dreamers, that view this with a pure sense of naive excitement and enjoy NCs positive aspirations should not be dismissed, afterall as said before, we should all be dreamers, it what keeps fans going week in week out during the darkest days and makes us enjoy the better moments so much more.... not sure why so grouchy about it?

[CB Fry]

NO this is not correect - if you read the posts carefully what expansion allows is a more flexibilty - its been said on numerous occasions - this can come in many forms and is regulated by supply and demand - you look at the 'gold games' games where demand is high and its all £45 a ticket, you look at so called brinze games and provide a lower max but also a spread with cheap kids deals available by certain deadlines - When this is done, you add up the total and discount that for STs so they always get the best deal - its not rocket science - If the model/forecast cmbined with all the other aspects of a feasibility study + feedback on appropriate marketing shows an overall revenue advantage, its worth considering.

 

Of course it all depends on the source and cost associated with any funding - and that no one has a clue about - high interest loans and its a no go - low interset longer term owner funding and its possible as this does not impact on funding for on the field activities. I just found your blank dismissal of the discussion rather crude - and your assumptions that no one on here understands the principles, difficulties and requirements for a go decision discourteous at best.

 

Even those that are pure unadulterated dreamers, that view this with a pure sense of naive excitement and enjoy NCs positive aspirations should not be dismissed, afterall as said before, we should all be dreamers, it what keeps fans going week in week out during the darkest days and makes us enjoy the better moments so much more.... not sure why so grouchy about it?

 

So your gold silver bronze (which exists up and down the country and has done for at least twenty years, byt thanks for painstakingly explaining it like it was String Theory)...anyway your system there means everyone getting cheaper tickets. Another name on the list for Wes Tender who seems to be obsessed by that point. Thanks for being there.

[up and away]

Do we actually know why cortese wants to expand? I think it's to do with making the stadium more profitable through corporate and other avenues rather than just bums on seats. To add any these things, the up side is more seats and if they are not used every week I dont think that's his main concern. I think it's been said before that he is not happy with the lack of money making potential of the ground. I think this may be why he may consider building a new ground to fully explore these other avenues. What these are I don't know but you can guarantee he's has done all the Maths to see if this is worth while LONG TERM. I really think we need to fully back what every he has in mind and if he is looking to expand then this must be good for the club.

 

If you listen to the Solent interviews and join up the dots, it's pretty straightforward

 

• The club has to be self sustaining with finance available to raise to a certain level
  
• Income through attendance will have a large effect on our ability to sustain ourselves at a higher level
  
• We would not just go out and upgrade the stadium capacity, that would be based on demand over time and market research
  
• The Academy is geared towards giving us a major edge over our competitors in taking the club as far as it can go
  
• The facilities to support the playing team will be second to none
  
• The style of football should be to attract all
  

Cortese is a very driven individual and a lot of these points comes from him eulogising where we can end up. Personally it looks a bit pie in the sky but I am not going to bet against the guy with his current record and being a Saints fan, I warm to that.

 

I always believed previously that 36k was the optimum size for our previous requirements and find it difficult to believe we would fill a 45k stadium. For us to fill that 45k stadium we would have to play a free flowing, attractive brand of football in the Premier. Similar to what we experienced in the Championship but capable of producing a top 6 finish in the Premier. I would be amazed if Cortese achieved that, but I am equally amazed at what he has achieved already.

[Frank's cousin]

So your gold silver bronze (which exists up and down the country and has done for at least twenty years, byt thanks for painstakingly explaining it like it was String Theory)...anyway your system there means everyone getting cheaper tickets. Another name on the list for Wes Tender who seems to be obsessed by that point. Thanks for being there.

 

Once a cock...always a cock I guess.... If my explanation was simplistic, its because you come across as a simpleton, who makes sweeping assumption and is obviously lacking in self awareness, so thought this would help you out.

[Frank's cousin]

If you listen to the Solent interviews and join up the dots, it's pretty straightforward

• The club has to be self sustaining with finance available to raise to a certain level
  
• Income through attendance will have a large effect on our ability to sustain ourselves at a higher level
  
• We would not just go out and upgrade the stadium capacity, that would be based on demand over time and market research
  
• The Academy is geared towards giving us a major edge over our competitors in taking the club as far as it can go
  
• The facilities to support the playing team will be second to none
  
• The style of football should be to attract all
  

Cortese is a very driven individual and a lot of these points comes from him eulogising where we can end up. Personally it looks a bit pie in the sky but I am not going to bet against the guy with his current record and being a Saints fan, I warm to that.

 

I always believed previously that 36k was the optimum size for our previous requirements and find it difficult to believe we would fill a 45k stadium. For us to fill that 45k stadium we would have to play a free flowing, attractive brand of football in the Premier. Similar to what we experienced in the Championship but capable of producing a top 6 finish in the Premier. I would be amazed if Cortese achieved that, but I am equally amazed at what he has achieved already.

 

Good points - I have no idea if we would achieve a 40K + average, depends on alot of factors as you suggest, but the irony is that for all those that cpmplained about the 'lack of ambition' under the previous regime, when we have a CEO that shows some, even if a little premature and 'pie in the sky' we get the same old whinging, patronizing crowd complaining - and worse still criticising others for enjoyig the feelgood factor/dreams... I sometimes wonder why these folk bother to post at all apart from to wind people up... they seem so miserable with life, let alone supporting saints...

[CB Fry]

Once a cock...always a cock I guess.... If my explanation was simplistic' date=' its because you come across as a simpleton, who makes sweeping assumption and is obviously lacking in self awareness, so thought this would help you out.[/quote']

 

Who, precisely, isn't going to benefit from cheaper tickets then? Do tell.

[Frank's cousin]

Who, precisely, isn't going to benefit from cheaper tickets then? Do tell.

 

 

Option one - 32 k max - in order to achieve a maximum revenue - supply and demand will dictate your ticket price - if successful we could arguably get to a stage where the club could remove concessions, discounts and sell all tickets at say £40 to max revenue...with me? - so the club benefits from restricted supply by not having to discount or make any offers. There is a problem with this approach though as its short termist - you disenfranchise a large core element of potential support and the next generation of fans - great for the short term, but blinkered for the long term.

 

Option Two - 46k max - top games same problem - demand will allow you to sell all at a high price - no benefit to average fan, but benefit to club as it follows laws of S+D to max revenue, BUT for unfashionable games capacity may allow a better pricing band, and offers - which yes benefits fans, but also the club in that extra bodies spend more within the other commercial outlets which have a high margin - whilst many fans are still ****ed off that they cant get tickets for big games, they can at least get tickets to the less attractive fixtures - we are not talking about cheaper tickets than we pay NOW, but about flexibilty to provide deals when apropriate to do so, as capacity allows it.

 

If we are doing well, have an attractive sucssful product option 2 will always provide greater revenues than option 1 - if playing poorly and offering nothing, then naturaly option 1 has less risk

 

By 'Cheaper tickets' no one is talking about eveyone getting in for £10 - we are talking about some games having tickets that are available at £30-£35 and concessions for kids and oldies etc, others would be sell outs at £45.

 

In stead of further patronising BS, if you see a flawed logic in the above, why not respond with a decent explanation instead of your usual dismissive clap trap?

Edited 20 April, 2012 by Frank's cousin

[CB Fry]

Option one - 32 k max - in order to achieve a maximum revenue - supply and demand will dictate your ticket price - if successful we could arguably get to a stage where the club could remove concessions, discounts and sell all tickets at say £40 to max revenue...with me? - so the club benefits from restricted supply by not having to discount or make any offers. There is a problem with this approach though as its short termist - you disenfranchise a large core element of potential support and the next generation of fans - great for the short term, but blinkered for the long term.

A

Option Two - 46k max - top games same problem - demand will allow you to sell all at a high price - no benefit to average fan, but benefit to club as it follows laws of S+D to max revenue, BUT for unfashionable games capacity may allow a better pricing band, and offers - which yes benefits fans, but also the club in that extra bodies spend more within the other commercial outlets which have a high margin - whilst many fans are still ****ed off that they cant get tickets for big games, they can at least get tickets to the less attractive fixtures - we are not talking about cheaper tickets than we pay NOW, but about flexibilty to provide deals when apropriate to do so, as capacity allows it.

 

If we are doing well, have an attractive sucssful product option 2 will always provide greater revenues than option 1 - if playing poorly and offering nothing, then naturaly option 1 has less risk

 

By 'Cheaper tickets' no one is talking about eveyone getting in for £10 - we are talking about some games having tickets that are available at £30-£35 and concessions for kids and oldies etc, others would be sell outs at £45.

 

In stead of further patronising BS, if you see a flawed logic in the above, why not respond with a decent explanation instead of your usual dismissive clap trap?

 

If you think a Man U ticket in a 32k stadium will cost the same as one in a 45k stadium you're off your head. In a stadium that big I think I'd be able to decide to go to that game on the morning of the game and drive the three hours from my house safe in the knowledge I'd get one.

 

Sorry you people can't just keep airily parrotting "its supply and demand innit" and then apply any old cockeyed theory to it.

 

I tell you what , lets see if we sell 20k+ plus season tickets. That's DEMAND. Or a waiting list for season tickets. Thats DEMAND. Lets see if we have no tickets on general sale for any game. Thats DEMAND. No one wants to wait for any of this to get to even close to happening. Just blinkered build-it build-it build-it foam hand waving delusion.

 

Babbling on about chucking seats up and then talking about slashing prices in order to fill them, and at the same time passing on offer related rebates to season ticket holders to keep them sweet.....if you can't see any flawed logic then dismissive claptrap is all I've got for you sunshine.

Edited 20 April, 2012 by CB Fry

[moonraker]

Season tickets are not the be all and end all. Modern lifestyles mean people want flexibility there is a large constituency of Saints supporters who for whole raft of good reasons cannot or do not wish commit to a season ticket, at the Dell and at times at SM in the prem you had to plan weeks in advance, if work, family or other good reasons prevented you from doing this confidently then like me you either very rarely went (the Dell) or only targeted Bronze type games, in itself not an issue as I go to watch SFC. My point is a greater capacity will when the team is successful provide greater flexibility especially for those of us who have a life outside football. Finally even at 45k its not guaranteed that Cocky B**gger Fry would be able to turn up on the day and get a ticket for MU or a handful of other clubs come to that, another throw away statement presented as a fact!

[CB Fry]

Season tickets are not the be all and end all. Modern lifestyles mean people want flexibility there is a large constituency of Saints supporters who for whole raft of good reasons cannot or do not wish commit to a season ticket, at the Dell and at times at SM in the prem you had to plan weeks in advance, if work, family or other good reasons prevented you from doing this confidently then like me you either very rarely went (the Dell) or only targeted Bronze type games, in itself not an issue as I go to watch SFC. My point is a greater capacity will when the team is successful provide greater flexibility especially for those of us who have a life outside football. Finally even at 45k its not guaranteed that Cocky B**gger Fry would be able to turn up on the day and get a ticket for MU or a handful of other clubs come to that, another throw away statement presented as a fact!

 

First off - that comment is not a statement presented as fact. It's a comment proceeded with the word "I think". It's my opinion expressed on a message board. Everything I type on here is my opinion.

 

So just to summarise your theory here - we need a bigger stadium so people that are too busy to have season tickets and go to games have the flexibility to not go to games.

 

Season tickets, I am afraid, is the be all and end all. As much as the footings in the ground, they are base foundation of a stadium, a fan base, a balance sheet and a football club.

[Matthew Le God]

Season tickets, I am afraid, is the be all and end all. As much as the footings in the ground, they are base foundation of a stadium, a fan base, a balance sheet and a football club.

 

Sunderland moved to a 42,000 stadium when at the time it was announced they only had...

 

- 10,000 season ticket holders

- averages gates of 16,000

- second tier of English football

 

Saints are currently...

 

- 16,000 season ticket holders

- 26,000 average gates

- second tier of English football

 

Before you go to your normal response of "were aren't Sunderland", look at the post of yours I just quoted, you are very general in it talking about what is the "be all and end all" for football clubs (not just Southampton). You contradict yourself!

Edited 20 April, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Trader]

I think it is generally agreed that St Mary's design always allowed for expansion.

 

So presumably there are plans somewhere in existence that Barr's architects would have drawn up which shows exactly how this could be achieved - mostly involving steelwork I should imagine.

 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Liebherr (the company) could get involved in the construction if it is to be mostly like giant Meccano.

 

With hundreds of Swiss/German engineers it could probably be achieved quite quickly (look at how they can throw up a Huf Haus) and at a massive cost saving.

 

If not, they could probably give us a discount on the cranes.

Edited 20 April, 2012 by Trader

[suewhistle]

Why almost certainly a lot cheaper than when lowe was around? Back then it was quoted as £3k per seat to expand, so 6k expansion would equal £18m. Why would the cost dramtically of come down?

 

 

Well done on posting without mentioning Alpine is on ignore BTW. you see you can do it.

 

Actually Turkish I've got you on ignore as well, but I took a guess that you were replying to me so I opened this particular post. I think I've mentioned twice that I've got Alpine on ignore and certainly not recently so I'm not sure why the typical dig.

 

Anyway, if you re-read my post carefully I wasn't talking about the buildong cost per seat but the cost for the capital - the nominal cost of any money invested, and that, both for current economic reasons and the resources of the person spending the money I believe would be less than a chancer like Lowe would have had to spend. Lowe was borrowing, the current lot have their own resources, and whilst they will put a price on the capital used it would be less than commercial rates. You've only got to look at what the bank manager wanted to charge Hamster for his narrow boat.;-)

[suewhistle]

Season tickets, I am afraid, is the be all and end all. As much as the footings in the ground, they are base foundation of a stadium, a fan base, a balance sheet and a football club.

 

So just to summarise your theory here, the reason why the club at the beginning of this season didn't seem to put much effort into marketing season tickets was due to their over-arching importance? Season tickets are so important that they'll be left in wills, that is, if the youngsters and less well-off and less committed haven't in the meantime decided to do something else with their money and watch the team on the box.

 

I actually haven't seen anybody here who doesn't acknowledge the importance of season tickets, but you have to maintain the interest of others as well, as pointed out by moonraker. That is far easier to achieve in a bigger ground. I do wonder at your agenda here; some of us may be optimistically hoping for better things, and speculating on what might be possible in true fan fashion. It's part of what keeps us interested. You are just consistently negative and rude with it.

 

So how about I put forward a new theory as to why they didn't push season tickets this last year. They wanted to keep as many people as possible interested in going to maintain the size of the fan base and the potential for future season ticket sales when we expand. OK, I don't actually believe this: it's like one of those uni essays [statement]: Discuss. But we are all speculating on this thread and perhaps it behoves you to be a bit politer about other people's opinions since you don't know any more than we do.

[Wes Tender]

Once a cock...always a cock I guess.... If my explanation was simplistic' date=' its because you come across as a simpleton, who makes sweeping assumption and is obviously lacking in self awareness, so thought this would help you out.[/quote']

It's useless trying to pursuade him Frank, as he has the superior intellect and the firmer grasp of supply and demand than us poor sops. In his own mind, of course.

 

But he has made many sweeping assumptions that have had holes picked in them by others, so his arguments aren't watertight.

 

He states that the justification for stadium expansion for pretty well everybody on here is falling seat prices. But of course that is only the selfish yearnings of a few fans and I doubt that it figures very high on the list of priorities of Cortese and the Liebherrs. Their motivation towards it is simply to maximise profits by increased numbers of bums on seats and increased income from corporate hospitality.

 

He somehow casts aspertions on whether it is going to be viable, but ultimately it is the decision of Cortese and the Liebherrs and regardless of all the guff spouted by Mr Fry, if it is proceeded with, I am confident that it will be on the basis of sound research and expertise.

[Frank's cousin]

If you think a Man U ticket in a 32k stadium will cost the same as one in a 45k stadium you're off your head. In a stadium that big I think I'd be able to decide to go to that game on the morning of the game and drive the three hours from my house safe in the knowledge I'd get one.

 

Sorry you people can't just keep airily parrotting "its supply and demand innit" and then apply any old cockeyed theory to it.

 

I tell you what , lets see if we sell 20k+ plus season tickets. That's DEMAND. Or a waiting list for season tickets. Thats DEMAND. Lets see if we have no tickets on general sale for any game. Thats DEMAND. No one wants to wait for any of this to get to even close to happening. Just blinkered build-it build-it build-it foam hand waving delusion.

 

Babbling on about chucking seats up and then talking about slashing prices in order to fill them, and at the same time passing on offer related rebates to season ticket holders to keep them sweet.....if you can't see any flawed logic then dismissive claptrap is all I've got for you sunshine.

 

WTF..? 'Sunshine' - next you'll be caling me 'treacle' and and singing Knees up Mother brown...... hilarious.

 

Have you not 'read and understood' a single aspect of context in which this discussion is happening? The fact that its currently hyperthetical? The fact that it requires success and consistent success and high quality product to drive demand? Would you not say that is a reasonable assumption?

 

I doubt we will sell 20K season tickets next season - our peak has been 25K in 2004/5 when IT WAS not possible to just stroll up and guarrantees a ticket at 2/3s o the games for a side that was failing to push on from its promising 2003 season.... it took 4 years at SMS to get to that level through...relative success of a cup final defeat and 8th place finish in 2003.

 

I suggest that even if we emulated that iwithin 2-3 years we might finally get to 25K STs.. It may be quicker, we shall see and given where we were 3 years ago and the growth we have seen, we'll see what happens.... but this discussion is about what happens if we do? What are the options - no one on here has done any feasibilty study, merely chewing the fat of a topic that for most fans who relish aspiration and ambition is ...wait for it,...enjoyable, remember that do you, fun, enjoyment? Or are you one of those miserable feckers too fecked off with 'foam hands' to enjoy seeing kids want to be saints fans, or encouraging new one or converting occasionals to regulars?

 

A Man U ticket in a 45 k seater WILL cost the same as a £32 if the there has been sufficient growth in demand due to success, value, product - Feck it could even be more as the NEED to expand will be on the back of cosnistent success FFS.. Of course its IFs, Buts and Maybes, and it may be impossible, we could find that we are a small two bit club that is never going to get more than 30K average even if top 6 in the prem every year - but thats not frickin point of this discussion...and thats what you seem too stubborn, to see... probably because your view is obscured by your secret fetish for waving foam hands ...sunshine... or more likely because you just like being a miserable sod and ****ing on the parade of those enjoying a hyperthetical discussion about the POTENTIAL of the club....

 

... so sunshine, when was the last time you enjoyed yourself? (and I'm talking in the company of others)... Jeez

[CB Fry]

Sunderland moved to a 42,000 stadium when at the time it was announced they only had...

 

- 10,000 season ticket holders

- averages gates of 16,000

- second tier of English football

 

Saints are currently...

 

- 16,000 season ticket holders

- 26,000 average gates

- second tier of English football

 

Before you go to your normal response of "were aren't Sunderland", look at the post of yours I just quoted, you are very general in it talking about what is the "be all and end all" for football clubs (not just Southampton). You contradict yourself!

 

We're not Sunderland in 1995. More recently Sunderland blew our average attendance out of the water last time they were in the second tier. Sunderland historically have a history of far bigger attendances than we have ever had.

 

We're not Sunderland in 1995 who were moving out of an old tired stadium to a new one. We're not Sunderland in 1995.

 

We are not Sunderland in 1995.

 

Season tickets are, aside from television revenues, the single most important revenue stream for any club. Being that TV revenues below the Prem are middling to poor, season ticket revenues are the single most important revenue stream for every club below the top tier. I don't care what you think about Sunderland in 1995, it's a pi ss weak response to a pretty universal truth in football. The fact you need to pick away at it shows how pathetic and petty you are.