Bomb in Boston

[Verbal]

Three of their relatives claim they were set up. There's presently no proof of that, but the narrative on Friday fits their claims. They were guilty as soon as their names were read out. Simple as. Every media outlet went with that as a point of truth. Some even went as far to suggest that the younger brother we going to go out in a blaze of glory. If you have been set up, and you know you have been set up - why on Earth would you go to a nick?

 

Again, your retailing of paranoid theories are obscuring far more important issues – and again, it’s a reason you should perhaps be a little more circumspect and, frankly, a little less simple-minded about this..

 

So why not drop the whispered conceit that the two brothers were ‘framed’, ‘set up’ or otherwise implicated as unfortunate innocents? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that the brothers were, on the balance of probabilities, likely to have been involved in the marathon bombings, in the murder of the campus cop, in the carjacking, in the car chase, in hurling IEDs onto the streets, and in the head-to-head shoot-out with the cops which resulted in the older brother’s death and the flight of the younger one, now wounded, to the bilge tanks of a hauled-up boat.

 

As I said a little earlier, if all this bears a similarity with anything in the US, it’s the Columbine attacks. It so happens that this is something I know a little about, having recorded interviews with many of those involved. The two shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed in a ruthless, sociopathic way – and in the endless search for ‘motives’ in the aftermath, this is about as good as it got: that Harris was a manipulative sociopath and Klebold, though popular at school, was an easily manipulated accomplice. Harris and Klebold, like (I suspect) the Tsarneav brothers, built pipe bombs and acquired guns and ammunition, and planned to go out in a blaze of narcissistic glory. (They succeeded – just take a look at YouTube, and the long lines of mass-murderer wannabes declaring their unbridled admiration for the killers).

 

I’d put good money on the prediction that the brothers had no ‘network’ of Chechen controllers, no clear ideological commitment to bringing the US to its knees, and no religious zeal over and above the banal references to their Muslim antecedents. Naturally, at least one of them indulged in conspiracy theories about 9/11 (a warning to you perhaps?) – but that was about it. An open trial would hear the evidence for all this, one way or the other.

 

So the point is this: the Republican Right is exerting enormous pressure on the Obama administration to declare the Boston bombing an ‘act of terrorism’ (which Obama, after some hesitation has already done), to withhold the reading of Miranda rights (the right to remain silent; and again this has already happened although it could easily be reversed), and to declare the surviving brother an ‘enemy combatant’ (which has not yet happened).

 

Aside from the very important civil rights issue, this tactic will only serve to obstruct a fair and open trial. And for people to have faith in justice it must be done and be seen to be done. Although the Columbine killers succeeded in their wish to go out in a blaze of bullets, no one has ever labelled that massacre as an act of terror – nor have they labelled the Sandy Hook killings or Aurora massacre as such (and in both, the body count was much higher).

 

So if you want to wind up into a fit of pique, do it for the right reason. Why not be a small voice, at least, in demanding Tsarneav’s right to a trial in which the federal government has to make its case to a jury in open court.

 

As I said earlier, the most irritating thing about conspiracy theorists is that they give the authorities an easy ride. They are the true patsies in all this, because while the conspiracy theorists fiddle with their inane, self-important and often repellently cruel crap, Rome burns.

 

Or look at it another way. Look at the company you keep. One of the most fashionable conspiracy theories at the moment is that Sandy Hook was a fake, that the grieving parents and surviving children of the attack are ‘crisis actors’, and that the whole thing was staged to enable Obama to tighten gun laws in the US.

 

Who advocates this theory? The truly lunatic fringe of the NRA and far-right extremists like Alex Jones.

 

http://illuminutti.com/2013/01/10/meet-the-sandy-hook-truthers/

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/false-flag-alex-jones-boston-marathon-bombing-family-231742713.html

 

After reading these links, don’t you feel like you should take a shower?

[pap]

I have read your posts but see no evidence of some conspiracy. What is the evidence?

 

So far everything I have seen and read fits in with the consensus that two nutjobs set off the bombs and were tracked down and caught/killed by the rozzers.

 

Well, flattering as it is to be referred to as the sole source of all conspiracy related material, I can't really claim that honour.

 

Going from the photos, there is a much better fit for the bomber than the Tsaraevs.

 

If pushed, I'd be more interested in the military types. A few reasons. First, they are near the first bomb site. Second, one is wearing a rucksack which is very similar to one of the post exploded bombs. In a post bombing-shot, he is sans rucksack.

 

Verbal had a laugh over the Craft International link. Midweek, these people didn't exist. By the end of the week, they did exist, but most definitely were not Craft International, but apparently the world's worst counter-terrorism squad.

 

On that note, 4 of the 5 predictions from the anonymous source that was mocked on here have now come true. Friday capture, check. Man in late teens early 20s. Check. Reloading powder? Check.

 

Bill to limit sale of such powder? Why, it was proposed on Friday!

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/senator-to-propose-bill-regulating-black-power-wake-of-boston-massacre

[Lord Duckhunter]

If Pap continues this nonsense, the mods are going to have to move the thread to The Muppet show.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Again, your retailing of paranoid theories are obscuring far more important issues – and again, it’s a reason you should perhaps be a little more circumspect and, frankly, a little less simple-minded about this..

 

So why not drop the whispered conceit that the two brothers were ‘framed’, ‘set up’ or otherwise implicated as unfortunate innocents? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that the brothers were, on the balance of probabilities, likely to have been involved in the marathon bombings, in the murder of the campus cop, in the carjacking, in the car chase, in hurling IEDs onto the streets, and in the head-to-head shoot-out with the cops which resulted in the older brother’s death and the flight of the younger one, now wounded, to the bilge tanks of a hauled-up boat.

 

As I said a little earlier, if all this bears a similarity with anything in the US, it’s the Columbine attacks. It so happens that this is something I know a little about, having recorded interviews with many of those involved. The two shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed in a ruthless, sociopathic way – and in the endless search for ‘motives’ in the aftermath, this is about as good as it got: that Harris was a manipulative sociopath and Klebold, though popular at school, was an easily manipulated accomplice. Harris and Klebold, like (I suspect) the Tsarneav brothers, built pipe bombs and acquired guns and ammunition, and planned to go out in a blaze of narcissistic glory. (They succeeded – just take a look at YouTube, and the long lines of mass-murderer wannabes declaring their unbridled admiration for the killers).

 

I’d put good money on the prediction that the brothers had no ‘network’ of Chechen controllers, no clear ideological commitment to bringing the US to its knees, and no religious zeal over and above the banal references to their Muslim antecedents. Naturally, at least one of them indulged in conspiracy theories about 9/11 (a warning to you perhaps?) – but that was about it. An open trial would hear the evidence for all this, one way or the other.

 

So the point is this: the Republican Right is exerting enormous pressure on the Obama administration to declare the Boston bombing an ‘act of terrorism’ (which Obama, after some hesitation has already done), to withhold the reading of Miranda rights (the right to remain silent; and again this has already happened although it could easily be reversed), and to declare the surviving brother an ‘enemy combatant’ (which has not yet happened).

 

Aside from the very important civil rights issue, this tactic will only serve to obstruct a fair and open trial. And for people to have faith in justice it must be done and be seen to be done. Although the Columbine killers succeeded in their wish to go out in a blaze of bullets, no one has ever labelled that massacre as an act of terror – nor have they labelled the Sandy Hook killings or Aurora massacre as such (and in both, the body count was much higher).

 

So if you want to wind up into a fit of pique, do it for the right reason. Why not be a small voice, at least, in demanding Tsarneav’s right to a trial in which the federal government has to make its case to a jury in open court.

 

As I said earlier, the most irritating thing about conspiracy theorists is that they give the authorities an easy ride. They are the true patsies in all this, because while the conspiracy theorists fiddle with their inane, self-important and often repellently cruel crap, Rome burns.

 

Or look at it another way. Look at the company you keep. One of the most fashionable conspiracy theories at the moment is that Sandy Hook was a fake, that the grieving parents and surviving children of the attack are ‘crisis actors’, and that the whole thing was staged to enable Obama to tighten gun laws in the US.

 

Who advocates this theory? The truly lunatic fringe of the NRA and far-right extremists like Alex Jones.

 

http://illuminutti.com/2013/01/10/meet-the-sandy-hook-truthers/

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/false-flag-alex-jones-boston-marathon-bombing-family-231742713.html

 

After reading these links, don’t you feel like you should take a shower?

Good luck with getting a considered well argued response

[aintforever]

Well, flattering as it is to be referred to as the sole source of all conspiracy related material, I can't really claim that honour.

 

Going from the photos, there is a much better fit for the bomber than the Tsaraevs.

 

If pushed, I'd be more interested in the military types. A few reasons. First, they are near the first bomb site. Second, one is wearing a rucksack which is very similar to one of the post exploded bombs. In a post bombing-shot, he is sans rucksack and giving their alibi, which if innocent, they would have.

 

Verbal had a laugh over the Craft International link. Midweek, these people didn't exist. By the end of the week, they did exist, but most definitely were not Craft International, but apparently the world's worst counter-terrorism squad.

 

On that note, 4 of the 5 predictions from the anonymous source that was mocked on here have now come true. Friday capture, check. Man in late teens early 20s. Check. Reloading powder? Check.

 

Bill to limit sale of such powder? Why, it was proposed on Friday!

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/senator-to-propose-bill-regulating-black-power-wake-of-boston-massacre

 

So you are looking at photos online and deciding who looks most like the bomber! Do you know how ****ing stupid that is. The police trawl through hours of CCTV but some loon makes a more accurate judgement from a few pics!

 

If these brothers were innocent they (if they had any common sense at all) would have gone to the police before their pictures were released to rule themselves out by simply presenting their unexploded rucksacks and giving their alibi which, if innocent, they would have.

 

If they didn't do that they most certainly would have when their pics were plastered all over the news. One thing two innocent people absolutely wouldn't do is get tooled up and go looking for a shootout with untold amounts of police and troops.

 

Add this to the fact that if it was a set up the two guys would be dead, any idea of a conspiracy is daft. They even have footage of the last suspect being arrested FFS. And an eye witness account from someone who had his legs blown off saying he saw the guy drop the rucksack - maybe he's part of the big plan as well?

 

Also, the idea that any politician would commit mass murder to try and push through some minor legislation is just bonkers. Especially given that the only aim of gun control is to reduce the amount of people being killed and injured. You are basically saying that they want to stop people being killed so badly they are willing to kill loads of people!

Edited 21 April, 2013 by aintforever

[pap]

Again, your retailing of paranoid theories are obscuring far more important issues – and again, it’s a reason you should perhaps be a little more circumspect and, frankly, a little less simple-minded about this..

 

So why not drop the whispered conceit that the two brothers were ‘framed’, ‘set up’ or otherwise implicated as unfortunate innocents? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that the brothers were, on the balance of probabilities, likely to have been involved in the marathon bombings, in the murder of the campus cop, in the carjacking, in the car chase, in hurling IEDs onto the streets, and in the head-to-head shoot-out with the cops which resulted in the older brother’s death and the flight of the younger one, now wounded, to the bilge tanks of a hauled-up boat.

 

As I said a little earlier, if all this bears a similarity with anything in the US, it’s the Columbine attacks. It so happens that this is something I know a little about, having recorded interviews with many of those involved. The two shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed in a ruthless, sociopathic way – and in the endless search for ‘motives’ in the aftermath, this is about as good as it got: that Harris was a manipulative sociopath and Klebold, though popular at school, was an easily manipulated accomplice. Harris and Klebold, like (I suspect) the Tsarneav brothers, built pipe bombs and acquired guns and ammunition, and planned to go out in a blaze of narcissistic glory. (They succeeded – just take a look at YouTube, and the long lines of mass-murderer wannabes declaring their unbridled admiration for the killers).

 

I’d put good money on the prediction that the brothers had no ‘network’ of Chechen controllers, no clear ideological commitment to bringing the US to its knees, and no religious zeal over and above the banal references to their Muslim antecedents. Naturally, at least one of them indulged in conspiracy theories about 9/11 (a warning to you perhaps?) – but that was about it. An open trial would hear the evidence for all this, one way or the other.

 

So the point is this: the Republican Right is exerting enormous pressure on the Obama administration to declare the Boston bombing an ‘act of terrorism’ (which Obama, after some hesitation has already done), to withhold the reading of Miranda rights (the right to remain silent; and again this has already happened although it could easily be reversed), and to declare the surviving brother an ‘enemy combatant’ (which has not yet happened).

 

Aside from the very important civil rights issue, this tactic will only serve to obstruct a fair and open trial. And for people to have faith in justice it must be done and be seen to be done. Although the Columbine killers succeeded in their wish to go out in a blaze of bullets, no one has ever labelled that massacre as an act of terror – nor have they labelled the Sandy Hook killings or Aurora massacre as such (and in both, the body count was much higher).

 

So if you want to wind up into a fit of pique, do it for the right reason. Why not be a small voice, at least, in demanding Tsarneav’s right to a trial in which the federal government has to make its case to a jury in open court.

 

As I said earlier, the most irritating thing about conspiracy theorists is that they give the authorities an easy ride. They are the true patsies in all this, because while the conspiracy theorists fiddle with their inane, self-important and often repellently cruel crap, Rome burns.

 

Or look at it another way. Look at the company you keep. One of the most fashionable conspiracy theories at the moment is that Sandy Hook was a fake, that the grieving parents and surviving children of the attack are ‘crisis actors’, and that the whole thing was staged to enable Obama to tighten gun laws in the US.

 

Who advocates this theory? The truly lunatic fringe of the NRA and far-right extremists like Alex Jones.

 

http://illuminutti.com/2013/01/10/meet-the-sandy-hook-truthers/

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/false-flag-alex-jones-boston-marathon-bombing-family-231742713.html

 

After reading these links, don’t you feel like you should take a shower?

 

Hi Verbal. First of all, congratulations for not setting up quite as many strawmen in this post.

 

Both of us are putting forward theories here. Your Columbine comparison is more palatable, but at this stage, no more proven. Your point?

 

Let's go for the next one. Anyone with common sense can see that the brothers were responsible. I can certainly accept that anyone looking for easy answers will reach that conclusion, but common sense? Would you like to tell me how this applies here? It's not an argument. It's an attempt to marginalise a poster by implying that he lacks common sense for the opinions he or she holds. All the other events you mention are as yet, unproven in a court of law. I doubt they ever will be.

 

Might have escaped the easily impressed on here, but almost your entire post is "nutter by association". I'm less impressed, but let's not fall out over it.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Again, your retailing of paranoid theories are obscuring far more important issues – and again, it’s a reason you should perhaps be a little more circumspect and, frankly, a little less simple-minded about this..

 

So why not drop the whispered conceit that the two brothers were ‘framed’, ‘set up’ or otherwise implicated as unfortunate innocents? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that the brothers were, on the balance of probabilities, likely to have been involved in the marathon bombings, in the murder of the campus cop, in the carjacking, in the car chase, in hurling IEDs onto the streets, and in the head-to-head shoot-out with the cops which resulted in the older brother’s death and the flight of the younger one, now wounded, to the bilge tanks of a hauled-up boat.

 

As I said a little earlier, if all this bears a similarity with anything in the US, it’s the Columbine attacks. It so happens that this is something I know a little about, having recorded interviews with many of those involved. The two shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed in a ruthless, sociopathic way – and in the endless search for ‘motives’ in the aftermath, this is about as good as it got: that Harris was a manipulative sociopath and Klebold, though popular at school, was an easily manipulated accomplice. Harris and Klebold, like (I suspect) the Tsarneav brothers, built pipe bombs and acquired guns and ammunition, and planned to go out in a blaze of narcissistic glory. (They succeeded – just take a look at YouTube, and the long lines of mass-murderer wannabes declaring their unbridled admiration for the killers).

 

I’d put good money on the prediction that the brothers had no ‘network’ of Chechen controllers, no clear ideological commitment to bringing the US to its knees, and no religious zeal over and above the banal references to their Muslim antecedents. Naturally, at least one of them indulged in conspiracy theories about 9/11 (a warning to you perhaps?) – but that was about it. An open trial would hear the evidence for all this, one way or the other.

 

So the point is this: the Republican Right is exerting enormous pressure on the Obama administration to declare the Boston bombing an ‘act of terrorism’ (which Obama, after some hesitation has already done), to withhold the reading of Miranda rights (the right to remain silent; and again this has already happened although it could easily be reversed), and to declare the surviving brother an ‘enemy combatant’ (which has not yet happened).

 

Aside from the very important civil rights issue, this tactic will only serve to obstruct a fair and open trial. And for people to have faith in justice it must be done and be seen to be done. Although the Columbine killers succeeded in their wish to go out in a blaze of bullets, no one has ever labelled that massacre as an act of terror – nor have they labelled the Sandy Hook killings or Aurora massacre as such (and in both, the body count was much higher).

 

So if you want to wind up into a fit of pique, do it for the right reason. Why not be a small voice, at least, in demanding Tsarneav’s right to a trial in which the federal government has to make its case to a jury in open court.

 

As I said earlier, the most irritating thing about conspiracy theorists is that they give the authorities an easy ride. They are the true patsies in all this, because while the conspiracy theorists fiddle with their inane, self-important and often repellently cruel crap, Rome burns.

 

Or look at it another way. Look at the company you keep. One of the most fashionable conspiracy theories at the moment is that Sandy Hook was a fake, that the grieving parents and surviving children of the attack are ‘crisis actors’, and that the whole thing was staged to enable Obama to tighten gun laws in the US.

 

Who advocates this theory? The truly lunatic fringe of the NRA and far-right extremists like Alex Jones.

 

http://illuminutti.com/2013/01/10/meet-the-sandy-hook-truthers/

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/false-flag-alex-jones-boston-marathon-bombing-family-231742713.html

 

After reading these links, don’t you feel like you should take a shower?

 

I would suspect that that the brothers were 'Islamist' terrorists motivated by a hatred of America shared across many Muslim people's across the world. Today's Al Qaeda terrorist is not necessarily part of some organised structure but is merely united by the Internet. The modern terrorist can be radicalised on-line and then educate themselves as to how to cause an atrocity without reporting in to some higher figure and I would believe that this is what these brothers have been up to. Perry Mason Pap may struggle to defend these guys but I am happy to listen to all the evidence.

 

I think that you are wide of the mark when you say that the brothers were motivated by a university/college campus type motive. These style rampage's are in my opinion driven by a sense of resentment at being left out from the 'in crowd' and the 'college football' circles. Labelled as 'drop outs' a bitterness manifests itself and ultimately ends in a massacre. Unfortunately the gun laws in the States make them very vulnerable to these tragic scenarios. Its why gun laws need an overhaul.

 

You criticise Pap for being Paranoiad Verbal but your Paranoia is very visible in your association with the 'Republican' Right and the cranks views you attach links to. Gun laws are rejected by a sizeable part of the American population because they don't like the Government telling them what to do. Whatever we may think of American gun laws many normal Americans object to gun laws for reasons we probably cannot relate to.

[pap]

So you are looking at photos online and deciding who looks most like the bomber! Do you know how ****ing stupid that is. The police trawl through hours of CCTV but some loon makes a more accurate judgement from a few pics!

 

If these brothers were innocent they (if they had any common sense at all) would have gone to the police before their pictures were released to rule themselves out by simply presenting their unexploded rucksacks and giving their alibi which, if innocent, they would have.

 

If they didn't do that they most certainly would have when their pics were plastered all over the news. One thing two innocent people absolutely wouldn't do is get tooled up and go looking for a shootout with untold amounts of police and troops.

 

Add this to the fact that if it was a set up the two guys would be dead, any idea of a conspiracy is daft. They even have footage of the last suspect being arrested FFS. And an eye witness account from someone who had his legs blown off saying he saw the guy drop the rucksack - maybe he's part of the big plan as well?

 

Also, the idea that any politician would commit mass murder to try and push through some minor legislation is just bonkers. Especially given that the only aim of gun control is to reduce the amount of people being killed and injured. You are basically saying that they want to stop people being killed so badly they are willing to kill loads of people!

 

Yes I have been looking at photos online!

 

I have, however, been a little more discerning about my process.

 

Speaking of the guy who had his legs blown off, take a look at this frame by frame shot of events just after the explosion.

 

http://imgur.com/a/9MPLT

 

The link does contain some graphic images, but there is no blood. What I find strange about is that every frame contains the gentleman who reportedly had his legs blown off. Like I said, no blood.

 

Check it out, and give me an honest appraisal.

[aintforever]

Yes I have been looking at photos online!

 

I have, however, been a little more discerning about my process.

 

Speaking of the guy who had his legs blown off, take a look at this frame by frame shot of events just after the explosion.

 

http://imgur.com/a/9MPLT

 

The link does contain some graphic images, but there is no blood. What I find strange about is that every frame contains the gentleman who reportedly had his legs blown off. Like I said, no blood.

 

Check it out, and give me an honest appraisal.

 

Not sure what point you are trying to make re: the pics. They are obviously taken very quickly after the explosion and it would take time for puddles of blood to form. There is plenty of blood in the other pics. Again I am not sure what this means in relation to any conspiracy.

[OttawaSaint]

What I find strange about is that every frame contains the gentleman who reportedly had his legs blown off. Like I said, no blood.

 

Check it out, and give me an honest appraisal.

 

It's something the body does when you lose a limb like that, it goes into shock and the arteries clamp themselves shut to prevent grievous blood loss. They still have to get him ASAP as the body can't do this indefinitely and when the arteries dilate again he would bleed profusely. By that time though you'd hope he was in the care of a hospital.

[pap]

Not sure what point you are trying to make re: the pics. They are obviously taken very quickly after the explosion and it would take time for puddles of blood to form. There is plenty of blood in the other pics. Again I am not sure what this means in relation to any conspiracy.

 

C'mon. Guy has just had his legs blown off. No spatter on the people next to him. Not a visible scratch on anyone in the photos save the man himself.

 

No blood, anywhere. Even the ragged fellow in frame in the first two frames has no blood on him.

 

Yes, it appears in later photos ( and we'll get to those ) - but it is entirely absent here. The force of the explosion would have thrown blood outward immediately, certainly enough to be visible over what is seconds of footage. There's nothing.

 

So let's look a photo with blood. Purposefully linked instead of embedded.

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/16/article-2309545-1950CDAB000005DC-672_964x494.jpg

 

Same scene, a little later on, from a different angle. You're right. There's blood there - but this whole photo seems off. Hooded sunglasses bloke has left Jeff Bauman propped up against the black lady and is laying across a different body. That's weird. Who'd leave a bloke who'd just lost both his legs?

 

Carlos Arrendondo, later depicted in wheeling Jeff out on a chair, is standing on the side waving a flag. Dudes are just standing there or talking to each other instead attending to the injured. Lacks urgency to me.

[Viking Warrior]

Pap you clearly don't know much about traumatic injuries and as Ottawa has said there will be a delay in bleedding . I'm not sure what the time frame the frames were taken . I guess split seconds . The one thing that I am curious about is the pictures where he is being pushed away in the wheel chair . I cannot see an effective tourniquet and I would have thought they would have put some form of dressing / splint on his legs to prevent infection and ease bleeding and the immense pain he would have had . There is no conspiracy pap . The terror on the faces of everyone in the shot is for real . But in your defence it is easy to firm a differing opinion from the rest of us .

[pap]

Pap you clearly don't know much about traumatic injuries and as Ottawa has said there will be a delay in bleedding . I'm not sure what the time frame the frames were taken . I guess split seconds . The one thing that I am curious about is the pictures where he is being pushed away in the wheel chair . I cannot see an effective tourniquet and I would have thought they would have put some form of dressing / splint on his legs to prevent infection and ease bleeding and the immense pain he would have had . There is no conspiracy pap . The terror on the faces of everyone in the shot is for real . But in your defence it is easy to firm a differing opinion from the rest of us .

 

You're right. I don't know much about traumatic injuries, but there are a couple of accounts from EMTs that posit similar concerns .One points to the even skin tone in the picture you reference - apparently not consistent with the blood loss he would have endured. Perhaps Ottawa would be good enough to give a view.

[Viking Warrior]

There's a term called bled out which is possible what happened to the this jeff fellow and his leg bled till such time as the tourniquet was applied. and he does have a tourniquet on His leg . You might want to visit this guardian site.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/16/carlos-arredondo-hero-boston-marathon.i hadn't realised he got hold of the artery. Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Arredondo. I really think you are barking up the wrong tree re conspiracy theories pap

[pap]

Well aware of Carlos' past as an anti-war campaigner. It has been weighed in, and yes, it does give me pause. Still seems weird, like he's waiting for a nod.

[pap]

VW, you were interested in the medical angle. Ottawa too probs.

 

Do you think this guy is legit?

 

http://buelahman.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/are-you-just-a-believer-or-do-you-think/

[OttawaSaint]

VW, you were interested in the medical angle. Ottawa too probs.

 

Do you think this guy is legit?

 

http://buelahman.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/are-you-just-a-believer-or-do-you-think/

 

Utter drivel. Hard to believe this guy graduated anywhere with written English as bad as that. If you look hard enough and have a good imagination you can come to all sorts of conclusions I guess.

[Viking Warrior]

Some of what he says rings true pap however. I think he is a Waltermitty EMT As for it being a set up definitely not pap . It takes ages to set up a proper cas simulation double amputation . And I know what I'm talking about here . No way could that be put together in just a couple of minutes . The shot in the wheel chair shows lots of flaps of skin a torniquet is being used there are different types . The EMT in the picture is behind the wheel chair and has just arrived on the scene . In another picture he's slightly ahead of Carlos . The tourniquet is correctly applied .you do not remove a tourniquet once it is in place .there are rules on this but I will not bore you , The EMT in the later picture has been busy and they are rushing this guy to an ambulance . He may well have been given morphine or pethedine or what ever to ease the pain . The casualty looks calm but I think he is in a state of shock and maybe the real pain has not yet kicked in . You need to drop the conspiracy theory pap .

[Verbal]

C'mon. Guy has just had his legs blown off. No spatter on the people next to him. Not a visible scratch on anyone in the photos save the man himself.

 

No blood, anywhere. Even the ragged fellow in frame in the first two frames has no blood on him.

 

Yes, it appears in later photos ( and we'll get to those ) - but it is entirely absent here. The force of the explosion would have thrown blood outward immediately, certainly enough to be visible over what is seconds of footage. There's nothing.

 

So let's look a photo with blood. Purposefully linked instead of embedded.

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/16/article-2309545-1950CDAB000005DC-672_964x494.jpg

 

Same scene, a little later on, from a different angle. You're right. There's blood there - but this whole photo seems off. Hooded sunglasses bloke has left Jeff Bauman propped up against the black lady and is laying across a different body. That's weird. Who'd leave a bloke who'd just lost both his legs?

 

Carlos Arrendondo, later depicted in wheeling Jeff out on a chair, is standing on the side waving a flag. Dudes are just standing there or talking to each other instead attending to the injured. Lacks urgency to me.

 

You clearly have no idea either about blast-related trauma or bleeding out. You should listen to VW - he actually has experience of dealing with both.

 

And with that, I'm out of this discussion, which is now, frankly, bizarre. Pap: with your lack of judgement and perspective, you've crossed a boundary of good taste, and while the victims fortunately won't read any of this crass nonsense, it's insulting to them. I'm just waiting for you to follow this to the logical conclusion and accuse those in the pictures of being "crisis actors" like the victims, and their families, of Sandy Hook. All, so goes the impression, for your personal gratification. The extent to which you appear (evidently not just to me) to revel in this is...well, the word that comes to mind is slimy.

[hypochondriac]

I don't think pap truly believes any of this nonsense. I think he is doing it to get a reaction and have some sort of weird one-sided debate. Maybe I am giving him too much credit.

[pap]

Utter drivel. Hard to believe this guy graduated anywhere with written English as bad as that. If you look hard enough and have a good imagination you can come to all sorts of conclusions I guess.

 

Given your apparent interest and expertise in the trauma stuff, I was rather hoping that you'd offer a view on the medical opinions offered up. Never mind. I think I understand your first response better now.

[pap]

You clearly have no idea either about blast-related trauma or bleeding out. You should listen to VW - he actually has experience of dealing with both.

 

And with that, I'm out of this discussion, which is now, frankly, bizarre. Pap: with your lack of judgement and perspective, you've crossed a boundary of good taste, and while the victims fortunately won't read any of this crass nonsense, it's insulting to them. I'm just waiting for you to follow this to the logical conclusion and accuse those in the pictures of being "crisis actors" like the victims, and their families, of Sandy Hook. All, so goes the impression, for your personal gratification. The extent to which you appear (evidently not just to me) to revel in this is...well, the word that comes to mind is slimy.

 

I'm glad you've chosen this point to bail, Verbal, for your sake as well as mine.

 

My personal view is that you were disappointing. Can't fault you for "post length", but you began this week mocking the Anonymous post from 4chan (4/5 claims now true), which you've now ignored, because it is inconvenient.

 

Your interactions with me have been p!ss-poor. It amuses me that you think Frank's cousin could do with an edit. Jeez, if we took out the strawman, the insults and the attempted marginalization from your posts, we'd have f**k all left. Maybe something about Columbine?

 

Have fun.

[CB Fry]

So, just read through the last couple of pages.

 

And happy to announce Pap as the undisputed winner of the argument. He proper rinsed the rest of you.

 

 

Well done Pap. The Boston Bomb was definitely, like, all made up and stuff. I mean, look at that guy and that photo and that. All pretty conclusive.

 

Anyway, Pap wins.

[pap]

So, just read through the last couple of pages.

 

And happy to announce Pap as the undisputed winner of the argument. He proper rinsed the rest of you.

 

 

Well done Pap. The Boston Bomb was definitely, like, all made up and stuff. I mean, look at that guy and that photo and that. All pretty conclusive.

 

Anyway, Pap wins.

 

To be fair, CB, I enjoyed your character assassination more than Verbal's. you've obviously got a joke book on that grassy knoll. Good work!

[CB Saint]

Pap, either you are on a world class wind up, which if so, I salute you. Otherwise you need locking up.

[Verbal]

I'm glad you've chosen this point to bail, Verbal, for your sake as well as mine.

 

My personal view is that you were disappointing. Can't fault you for "post length", but you began this week mocking the Anonymous post from 4chan (4/5 claims now true), which you've now ignored, because it is inconvenient.

 

Your interactions with me have been p!ss-poor. It amuses me that you think Frank's cousin could do with an edit. Jeez, if we took out the strawman, the insults and the attempted marginalization from your posts, we'd have f**k all left. Maybe something about Columbine?

 

Have fun.

 

Well, look at it like this. You're in Liverpool. Go along to the next gathering of the families of the 96 and try telling them that they are all "crisis actors" - that Hillsborough was simply "staged" by the Thatcher government to bring in draconian changes in law to criminalise football fans. No one really died. They've all been spirited way to safe houses. Anne Williams worked for private security contractors who were part of the Black Ops conspiracy. She may not even be dead now.

 

Oh, and make sure you go into that meeting with a copy of The Sun rolled up under your arm.

 

That's the local equivalent of what you're doing to the victims of the Boston bombing. Of course, no one really notices you outside of a small football forum - but you're one of a large number of keyboard super-sleuths stamping their feet, demanding that they are given they're due for seeing through the evil State-sponsored machinations of every single public tragedy.

 

By the way, I'm still struggling to make sense of your claim that the "Anonymous" nonsense was "inconvenient". My point was, on the balance of probabilities and understood, I think, by reasonable people, that it was written by an overheated conspiracy theorist, rather like yourself (except read like it was written by a 14-year-old), and that it was a piece of characteristically self-important, look-at-me-I've-cracked- the-case rubbish. It was, of course, utterly predictable that something was about to give in the hunt for the bombers. Nothing in that email was remotely credible, and only the foolish would give it credibility - the kind of people who think 'The Craft' were really the bombers, that crowds suddenly disappeared (good grief! How ignorant a 'theory' that is!) and that Jeff Bauman was really a wounded soldier from the Afghan war.

 

Anyway, do let us know how the meeting with the 96 families goes.

[pap]

Lordy, is the best you have?

[View From The Top]

Pap, I usually find your posts entertaining, but fu.ck me, you're a fruit loop.

 

As for the blast wounds, I would suggest the combat medics who have had 1st hand experience of it, who have told you you're wrong, have slightly more knowledge than you.

Edited 22 April, 2013 by View From The Top
Typo

[Pancake]

Well, look at it like this. You're in Liverpool. Go along to the next gathering of the families of the 96 and try telling them that they are all "crisis actors" - that Hillsborough was simply "staged" by the Thatcher government to bring in draconian changes in law to criminalise football fans. No one really died. They've all been spirited way to safe houses. Anne Williams worked for private security contractors who were part of the Black Ops conspiracy. She may not even be dead now.

 

Oh, and make sure you go into that meeting with a copy of The Sun rolled up under your arm.

 

That's the local equivalent of what you're doing to the victims of the Boston bombing. Of course, no one really notices you outside of a small football forum - but you're one of a large number of keyboard super-sleuths stamping their feet, demanding that they are given they're due for seeing through the evil State-sponsored machinations of every single public tragedy.

 

By the way, I'm still struggling to make sense of your claim that the "Anonymous" nonsense was "inconvenient". My point was, on the balance of probabilities and understood, I think, by reasonable people, that it was written by an overheated conspiracy theorist, rather like yourself (except read like it was written by a 14-year-old), and that it was a piece of characteristically self-important, look-at-me-I've-cracked- the-case rubbish. It was, of course, utterly predictable that something was about to give in the hunt for the bombers. Nothing in that email was remotely credible, and only the foolish would give it credibility - the kind of people who think 'The Craft' were really the bombers, that crowds suddenly disappeared (good grief! How ignorant a 'theory' that is!) and that Jeff Bauman was really a wounded soldier from the Afghan war.

 

Anyway, do let us know how the meeting with the 96 families goes.

 

*Applauds* Brilliant post.

[pap]

Really? I don't think he could have picked a worse example. Hillsborough is a proven conspiracy. Didn't go down the way verbal said though.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Verbal do you still believe that this is a Columbine style attack or an Islamist motivated terrorist style attack? Or are you being a little paranonoid in thinking it is some sort of theory put forward to further the agenda of the American Right?

Edited 22 April, 2013 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[Viking Warrior]

Sergei and PaP you are some real wind up merchants. I hope you guys are not being serious about the injuries. but if you are you really have warped minds.

 

As for the blast wounds, I would suggest the combat medics who have had 1st hand experience of it,

 

As someone has said you have know idea of dealing with blast wounds. I have.

Some you get massive blood loss some its not straight away some times the wounds get cauterised by the explosion.

Its possible quickclot was used. Someone may have clamped the artery. The guy is know doubt in hypovolaemic shock . I pretty sure the reason for moving the guy was because he would have classed as a T1 casuality. They would have moved him very very quickly so they could get a drip etc up and also incase there was a secondary device. But Im not here to talk about specific medical procedures. I could but I will not.

 

One point you both fail to mention . are the injuries to all the others , All you are doing is focussing on one individual and are totally blinkered about the other injured and the three who died, There were others who also lost limpbs and have sharpnel inbedded in their brains. Please dont talk about conspiracies. Those injures are real. You should see the effects of nails and ball bearing that have been fired by an IED or any other crude explosive device. Please have respect for all those that either lost their life or have life threatening and life changing injuries. Do some research on the mother and sister of the young 8 year old who lost his life. See what injuries they sustained. It will show you out to be a total fool

Edited 22 April, 2013 by Viking Warrior

[PhilippineSaint]

To be fair, CB, I enjoyed your character assassination more than Verbal's. you've obviously got a joke book on that grassy knoll. Good work!

 

Hey Pap I got the grassy knoll one in first on this thread

 

and I am nearly on your side as it looks like a set up

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Sergei and PaP you are some real wind up merchants. I hope you guys are not being serious about the injuries. but if you are you really have warped minds.

 

As for the blast wounds, I would suggest the combat medics who have had 1st hand experience of it,

 

As someone has said you have know idea of dealing with blast wounds. I have.

Some you get massive blood loss some its not straight away some times the wounds get cauterised by the explosion.

Its possible quickclot was used. Someone may have clamped the artery. The guy is know doubt in hypovolaemic shock . I pretty sure the reason for moving the guy was because he would have classed as a T1 casuality. They would have moved him very very quickly so they could get a drip etc up and also incase there was a secondary device. But Im not here to talk about specific medical procedures. I could but I will not.

 

One point you both fail to mention . are the injuries to all the others , All you are doing is focussing on one individual and are totally blinkered about the other injured and the three who died, There were others who also lost limpbs and have sharpnel inbedded in their brains. Please dont talk about conspiracies. Those injures are real. You should see the effects of nails and ball bearing that have been fired by an IED or any other crude explosive device. Please have respect for all those that either lost their life or have life threatening and life changing injuries. Do some research on the mother and sister of the young 8 year old who lost his life. See what injuries they sustained. It will show you out to be a total fool

 

What Viking? I am merely suggesting that I think that the attack was made by two Islamist guys who became radicalised on-line. Verbal has suggested that it is more like a Columbine style attack by College students and that to call them terrorists is part of a behind the scenes plan by the Republican Right. I think he is wrong.

[buctootim]

What Viking? I am merely suggesting that I think that the attack was made by two Islamist guys who became radicalised on-line. Verbal has suggested that it is more like a Columbine style attack by College students and that to call them terrorists is part of a behind the scenes plan by the Republican Right. I think he is wrong.

 

I think there is a little confusion. Far be it for me to speak for Verbal but I think he actually said the whole 'Its a fake and government conspiracy' guff is a product of the American loony survivalist far right and that Pap is lapping that nonsense up. I doubt anyone here apart from Pap actually doubts the attacks happened, which speaks for itself.

 

FWIW I found some of the interviews with the uncle and other Chechen emigres interesting - basically saying that settling into the US required a major mind shift and change in attitudes, some immigrants could do it and some failed and became disaffected. The older brother was a good amateur boxer and there is website showing him as 'boxing for a passport' . Maybe thats what happened. One or both were trying to become naturalised and get citizenship but lack of holding down a job and being investigated on the Russian's request about possible links to terrorism put the kybosh on that and they had just been turned down.

[Verbal]

I think there is a little confusion. Far be it for me to speak for Verbal but I think he actually said the whole 'Its a fake and government conspiracy' guff is a product of the American loony survivalist far right and that Pap is lapping that nonsense up. I doubt anyone here apart from Pap actually doubts the attacks happened, which speaks for itself.

 

Exactly so, Tim.

 

Here's a choice example from the link about the Boston marathon "actors" (including the badly injured Jeff Bauman) which pap posted on here so enthusiastically:

 

When you get a chance to wipe the sludge from your “eyes” try putting the mugshots of the ECONOMIC TERRORISTS who print the currency [FED RES] the mug shots of the MEDIA {owners} and all the “JEW” worshipping CRACK WHORES in ZOG CONGRESS on your living room wall….see if you see a pattern…

 

Hope you don’t hurt yourself by being in too big of a hurry to find the IDENTITY of the ECONOMIC TERRORISTS who since 1913 have mass murdered over 300 million NONJEWS for filthy lucre with malice aforethought…

 

If pap is happy to be associated with vicious anti-Semitic ranters like this, then that, as they say, is his problem - and a big one. But that kind of ugly response is found in all of these crazy theories. When you look beyond the deathly detail of the hopelessly ignorant nay-saying, what lurks there is a threatening, bullying far-right lunatic fringe.

[Viking Warrior]

Apologies Sergei I missed read your post as I took it. You were siding with pap. I have no Comment to make on the columbine attack as I don't have enough info

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think there is a little confusion. Far be it for me to speak for Verbal but I think he actually said the whole 'Its a fake and government conspiracy' guff is a product of the American loony survivalist far right and that Pap is lapping that nonsense up. I doubt anyone here apart from Pap actually doubts the attacks happened, which speaks for itself.

 

FWIW I found some of the interviews with the uncle and other Chechen emigres interesting - basically saying that settling into the US required a major mind shift and change in attitudes, some immigrants could do it and some failed and became disaffected. The older brother was a good amateur boxer and there is website showing him as 'boxing for a passport' . Maybe thats what happened. One or both were trying to become naturalised and get citizenship but lack of holding down a job and being investigated on the Russian's request about possible links to terrorism put the kybosh on that and they had just been turned down.

 

Well I interpreted Verbal's points as suggesting that the Boston Bombing was more closely associated to a Columbine style attack than a Islamist inspired attack. I am with the latter. I do not think there is a Republican Right conspiracy to portray the attack as a terrorist attack, I think it was.

 

Anyway after what has happened to the poor people of Chechnya in the last two decades you can probably understand why Chechens have issues settling down and why their faith is often at the extreme end.

[pap]

I have been busy today, so haven't had as much time to respond to the usual suspects. I have, however, discovered that the US intends to try him as a civilian, which is good news, even if I suspect a fair trial is going to be close to impossible.

 

Some weirdness about the reported injuries and the pic where the younger Tsarneav is climbing out of the boat. Linkage.

 

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/19/boston-marathon-suspect-shot-dead/

 

The FBI complaint said he was found with "apparent gunshot wounds to the head, neck, legs and hand".

 

Blood is visible in the arrest shot, but he seems to have no issue clambering out of the boat.

[pap]

I'd also like to direct a post to anyone calling me a nutter, fruit loop or other variant of crazy person. You may be right. I personally don't think you are, but for our collective sakes, I hope you are.

 

The gradual response to each of these events has been the introduction of new legislation and/or the prosecution of wars. I run through the list often enough, but our civil rights have unquestionably been eroded. The best case scenario is that this is just over-zealous legislating that tries to cover all the bases. The worst case is that the gradual removal of rights ends up in an authoritarian police state.

 

Buctootim would point to the number of people on here who haven't said anything as some kind of validation for his point. Having stuck my head above the parapet, I've got a bloody good idea why not! Who'd have a go after seeing that?

 

I mention this, because this kind of bullying groupthink is dangerous; perhaps the greatest threat to freedom of speech going. You are free to say what you like, but be prepared to be called all manner of names if you say something we don't like.

 

Lest this sound like the testament of an injured man, let me assure you that I feel no pain from the barbs on here. I used to have a great deal of respect for Verbal. I even stepped up to bat for buctootim on the UI. Given the characters they have shown themselves to be, I can't really say that I'm smarting from their "vicious" insults. Verbal uses his intelligence to obfuscate and insult, while Buctootim only seems to pop up to have a pop. He also suggested I might have invented my children

 

Both choose to shoot their **** from the safety of anonymous trenches.

 

So yeah, work away lads. If you're right, you have no worries. If history is written by the victors, you have no worries. If it turns out that I'm right, then collectively, we'll be seen as the duped generation, the ones who got fooled.

 

I'm already a fruit loop, so I've little to lose

[pap]

Hey Pap I got the grassy knoll one in first on this thread

 

and I am nearly on your side as it looks like a set up

 

Ta, PhillipineSaint, and may I commend you for your bravery.

 

You are quite correct on your grassy knoll thing. Soz.

[hypochondriac]

Ah yes. The age old argument that the silent majority agree with me but are too scared to say anything. That must be it...

[Bearsy]

If it turns out that I'm right

 

right bout what pap? I've read some posts but I'm bit confused. Was the bombs fake like moon landings?

[buctootim]

Ah yes. The age old argument that the silent majority agree with me but are too scared to say anything. That must be it...

 

I think you are underestimating Pap Hypo. Not only does he have a special insight that none of us have, he also has unique bravery that allows him to stand alone to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted reporting with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play. So be it he is ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it.

 

Or is he a munchkin who posts up personal details including pictures of his daughter then gets shrill and claims privacy invasion when someone questions the wisdom of it. I forget.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'd also like to direct a post to anyone calling me a nutter, fruit loop or other variant of crazy person. You may be right. I personally don't think you are, but for our collective sakes, I hope you are.

 

The gradual response to each of these events has been the introduction of new legislation and/or the prosecution of wars. I run through the list often enough, but our civil rights have unquestionably been eroded. The best case scenario is that this is just over-zealous legislating that tries to cover all the bases. The worst case is that the gradual removal of rights ends up in an authoritarian police state.

 

Buctootim would point to the number of people on here who haven't said anything as some kind of validation for his point. Having stuck my head above the parapet, I've got a bloody good idea why not! Who'd have a go after seeing that?

 

I mention this, because this kind of bullying groupthink is dangerous; perhaps the greatest threat to freedom of speech going. You are free to say what you like, but be prepared to be called all manner of names if you say something we don't like.

 

Lest this sound like the testament of an injured man, let me assure you that I feel no pain from the barbs on here. I used to have a great deal of respect for Verbal. I even stepped up to bat for buctootim on the UI. Given the characters they have shown themselves to be, I can't really say that I'm smarting from their "vicious" insults. Verbal uses his intelligence to obfuscate and insult, while Buctootim only seems to pop up to have a pop. He also suggested I might have invented my children

 

Both choose to shoot their **** from the safety of anonymous trenches.

 

So yeah, work away lads. If you're right, you have no worries. If history is written by the victors, you have no worries. If it turns out that I'm right, then collectively, we'll be seen as the duped generation, the ones who got fooled.

 

I'm already a fruit loop, so I've little to lose

 

Pap the beauty of the freedom of speech is that people get to comment on what you say. The biggest threat to it is people talking crap.

 

I rarely agreed with you but I always could just about see where you were coming from. This time you lost me!

[pap]

I think you are underestimating Pap Hypo. Not only does he have a special insight that none of us have, he also has unique bravery that allows him to stand alone to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted reporting with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play. So be it he is ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it.

 

Or is he a munchkin who posts up personal details including pictures of his daughter then gets shrill and claims privacy invasion when someone questions the wisdom of it. I forget.

 

I suppose it is better to be anonymous like yourself, Tim - skulking and sniping from the shadows, never having the courage to back your stated convictions with your name.

 

I'll take no dressing downs from such a character.

[View From The Top]

I suppose it is better to be anonymous like yourself, Tim - skulking and sniping from the shadows, never having the courage to back your stated convictions with your name.

 

I'll take no dressing downs from such a character.

 

Lost. The. Plot. Mush.

[hypochondriac]

Lost. The. Plot. Mush.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would want to reveal their true identities on an internet forum, particularly with some of the posters on here (and of course the real-life criminal damage that Keith received at his home address). I fail to see how spouting nonsense and giving everyone your real name is a good thing. Courageous? Idiotic more like. The people who matter on here know who I am anyway and I don't make any attempt to hide my identity in real-life. I've met quite a few who are on here.

Edited 22 April, 2013 by hypochondriac

[Jonnyboy]

pap's a legend

[pap]

right bout what pap? I've read some posts but I'm bit confused. Was the bombs fake like moon landings?

 

That we're sleepwalking into more authoritarian times, and that terrorist atrocities are being used to justify laws we'd never consider under usual circumstances.

 

That many of those incidents have state influence or direction, usually manifested as networks of collaborating people.

 

I'm not actually that fussed about the moon landings, but I have grave doubts about most of the recent terrorist actions in Western countries.

 

I have no doubt that in many cases, the perpetrators genuinely believe that they are on a divine mission. The trick, usually, is to get people dumb enough to control. That is not even conspiracy. It's how the FBI have cleared a 3rd of their terrorist cases. They convince some mug to set off a bomb, or what they think is a bomb, and nick them in the act. I already posted the transcripts from Emad Salem star witness in the WTC 93 bombings. He's having to explain away his rather large expense account, which he does so by mentioning the fact that cash was needed to build a bomb. The FBI are creating terrorism to catch terrorists. I don't find it a stretch to consider they, or other people involved in government, might create terrorism for other reasons.

 

They have certainly done it in the past. After the end of the Second World War, all of Europe was under the threat of Stalinism, stay-behind groups were created in European countries to ensure the pinkos didn't get in through the ballot box.

 

The most extreme example of this was Operation Gladio.

 

For over 20 years, a NATO stay behind group kept the Italian hard left out of office through a series of terrorist campaigns. The US wanted a strategy of tension. Gladio was finally confirmed in 1990.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

 

So a US-sanctioned NATO groups committed terrorist atrocities against the Italian people, with the knowledge of the Italian government.

 

I know this is a long post, so Bear with me. I'm almost done. The most common criticism I'm getting on here is that I'm a f**king nutbar, largely on account of "a government would never do this".

 

Well we have, and continue to do so, as the FBI's clear-up rate for catching terrorists attests. I don't think it's crazy to suggest that something that has happened in the past might be happening again.