General Election 2015

[Coxford_lou]

Lou, my Dad had an incredibly poor upbringing in Lewisham in a council flat, and my Mum in a council house in Worksop. The reason I am like what I am is because they told me never to accept excuses for someone not getting themselves out of poverty. So i don't.

 

Well I think that's fine and dandy for you, but if you want to have a wider impact on social change, bashing people over the head for not working hard enough when they're down on their luck, when all around them they can see opportunities they're excluded from, is possibly not the best or most fair strategy. Not everyone is like you or your parents.

 

I always find it strange when people pick on those in poverty as being the root of our problems, when actually we're all much closer to this state, than we are to being millionaires. You'd think we'd empathise more, or hedge our bets more towards this group in case one day things go t*ts up and we end up in the same place. It happens, very easily.

[buctootim]

This thread is a bit like that part Apocalypse Now after Morpheus gets shot on the boat and everyone's bickering with each other.

 

Morpheus was black and poor. Getting shot was probably his own fault.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Seriously dude, the people I'm talking about are neither intelligent enough or socially skilled enough for a management role. You just don't want to believe otherwise because it doesn't fit your worldview.

 

 

Dude, one thing I do know about ( and there's not much ) is retail management as it was in it for a number of years . It's about engaging people and empowering them , you don't keep hard workers in a box doing the same thing over and over . I've had lots of uneducated people who , whilst not necessarily becoming managers , ran areas and small teams for me . Even putting someone " in charge " of the a small part of the business , maybe the fridge by the exit with the sandwiches & bottles of drink in , makes the feel valued . I had a warehouse man who was a few sandwiches short of a picnic who still texts me and updates me on the job he's doing . A job that most on here would find mind numbingly boring , but by giving him a little responsibility and engaging him , he now has so much pride in what he does he texts his ex boss 7 years after he left .

[pap]

If you can't get what you want from the devs, then you should smash their stuff up.

 

The devs are working in a sought after market. Good ones are hard to find, and competent managers know this.

 

Competent managers more commonplace. Good luck!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You wouldn't eat without the likes of me, parasite.

 

People who stick with hard work, that is

 

You do get quite insulting when I don't agree with you, don't you?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Dude, one thing I do know about ( and there's not much ) is retail management as it was in it for a number of years . It's about engaging people and empowering them , you don't keep hard workers in a box doing the same thing over and over . I've had lots of uneducated people who , whilst not necessarily becoming managers , ran areas and small teams for me . Even putting someone " in charge " of the a small part of the business , maybe the fridge by the exit with the sandwiches & bottles of drink in , makes the feel valued . I had a warehouse man who was a few sandwiches short of a picnic who still texts me and updates me on the job he's doing . A job that most on here would find mind numbingly boring , but by giving him a little responsibility and engaging him , he now has so much pride in what he does he texts his ex boss 7 years after he left .

I can see how bits of responsibility like that are good for morale, but do they really lead to substantial increases in wages?

[Bearsy]

Even putting someone "in charge" of a small part of the business, maybe the fridge by the exit with the sandwiches & bottles of drink in, makes them feel valued.

 

[pap]

You do get quite insulting when I don't agree with you, don't you?

 

I'm just contextualising the "hard work" that you say others should do.

 

Fortunately, I think between the two of us, we can address the problems of the nation.

 

All we need to do is to get the unemployed to fail or quit a coding course. We'll have a shítload of qualified Senior Business Analysts afterward.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I can see how bits of responsibility like that are good for morale, but do they really lead to substantial increases in wages?

 

No , because since the inception of the minimum wage everything has become regimented . When I first managed people, you had total discretion on what you paid ( within certain boundaries ) , now it's all benchmarked against the minimum wage . There's also been a notable drop off in ambition , brought about by tax credits . Blokes actually turn down overtime or even promotion because it'll effect their " benefits" . How on earth is that right? I don't blame them , I blame the politicians who allow it . How does it help peoples worth or self respect that we subsidise their employers to pay them and then call them scrounges or deadbeats

[CB Fry]

Lou, my Dad had an incredibly poor upbringing in Lewisham in a council flat, and my Mum in a council house in Worksop. The reason I am like what I am is because they told me never to accept excuses for someone not getting themselves out of poverty. So i don't.

Are you in your late teens/early twenties?

 

If no, I'm not sure how relevant your up - by - my - bootstraps story is.

 

In your day, did council house lads have to pull together £30k just for a deposit on their first house?

 

I mean the average first time buyer these days is about 30, but 20 years ago it was closer to 20. The only possible explanation is people worked much, much harder 20 years ago.

 

Lazy beggars ain't they these days?

[pap]

No , because since the inception of the minimum wage everything has become regimented . When I first managed people, you had total discretion on what you paid ( within certain boundaries ) , now it's all benchmarked against the minimum wage . There's also been a notable drop off in ambition , brought about by tax credits . Blokes actually turn down overtime or even promotion because it'll effect their " benefits" . How on earth is that right? I don't blame them , I blame the politicians who allow it . How does it help peoples worth or self respect that we subsidise their employers to pay them and then call them scrounges or deadbeats

 

Did you ever get up to any of this when you hired all them Eastern Europeans?

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/cafe-sekandar---allerton-restaurant-9021346

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Are you in your late teens/early twenties?

 

If no, I'm not sure how relevant your up - by - my - bootstraps story is.

 

In your day, did council house lads have to pull together £30k just for a deposit on their first house?

 

I mean the average first time buyer these days is about 30, but 20 years ago it was closer to 20. The only possible explanation is people worked much, much harder 20 years ago.

 

Lazy beggars ain't they these days?

 

I had to come up with 30K for my first deposit, which was 5 years ago, when I was 25. Not sure how that's relevant mind.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well I think that's fine and dandy for you, but if you want to have a wider impact on social change, bashing people over the head for not working hard enough when they're down on their luck, when all around them they can see opportunities they're excluded from, is possibly not the best or most fair strategy. Not everyone is like you or your parents.

 

I always find it strange when people pick on those in poverty as being the root of our problems, when actually we're all much closer to this state, than we are to being millionaires. You'd think we'd empathise more, or hedge our bets more towards this group in case one day things go t*ts up and we end up in the same place. It happens, very easily.

 

Even if it did, I doubt we'd go out attacking people and their livelihoods because I felt like the Government wasn't looking out for me.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'm just contextualising the "hard work" that you say others should do.

 

Fortunately, I think between the two of us, we can address the problems of the nation.

 

All we need to do is to get the unemployed to fail or quit a coding course. We'll have a shítload of qualified Senior Business Analysts afterward.

 

You must have some **** BA's if they're all failed coders, Jesus.

[Coxford_lou]

Even if it did, I doubt we'd go out attacking people and their livelihoods because I felt like the Government wasn't looking out for me.

 

Ha! That was a convenient little twist at the end of your sentence.

[pap]

You must have some **** BA's if they're all failed coders, Jesus.

 

Ever try programming, Jeff?

[CB Fry]

I had to come up with 30K for my first deposit, which was 5 years ago, when I was 25. Not sure how that's relevant mind.

Ha! I had you down for about 50.

 

Well done then, you earned it all fair and square, anyone else that can't do it is clearly not working as hard as you then.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Ha! That was a convenient little twist at the end of your sentence.

 

Wasn't meant to be!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Ha! I had you down for about 50.

 

Well done then, you earned it all fair and square, anyone else that can't do it is clearly not working as hard as you then.

 

Nope, definitely not 50, honest. You can ask Lou and everything...

[pap]

Ha! I had you down for about 50.

 

Well done then, you earned it all fair and square, anyone else that can't do it is clearly not working as hard as you then.

 

Now now. He didn't say he earned it.

 

Just that he managed to find it. Two different things

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Ever try programming, Jeff?

 

God no, always felt it was beneath me

[pap]

God no, always felt it was beneath me

 

So basically, you've no knowledge of what the people you're managing are doing.

 

That is hard work!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Now now. He didn't say he earned it.

 

Just that he managed to find it. Two different things

 

I did earn it thank you very bloody much. Saved for 3 and a half years out of uni, and was hard work. Did live at home for a year of it though I do admit (although was working as a labourer at the time).

[Coxford_lou]

Nope, definitely not 50, honest. You can ask Lou and everything...

 

I'm happy to confirm, Jeff is definitely in his early 30s.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Lou, my Dad had an incredibly poor upbringing in Lewisham in a council flat, and my Mum in a council house in Worksop. The reason I am like what I am is because they told me never to accept excuses for someone not getting themselves out of poverty. So i don't.

Your grandparents should have worked harder [emoji3]

[Jonnyboy]

No , because since the inception of the minimum wage everything has become regimented . When I first managed people, you had total discretion on what you paid ( within certain boundaries ) , now it's all benchmarked against the minimum wage . There's also been a notable drop off in ambition , brought about by tax credits . Blokes actually turn down overtime or even promotion because it'll effect their " benefits" . How on earth is that right? I don't blame them , I blame the politicians who allow it . How does it help peoples worth or self respect that we subsidise their employers to pay them and then call them scrounges or deadbeats

 

Yeah and bosses happily pay low wages and trouser more profit for themselves knowing the government is helping them out.

[Jonnyboy]

I did earn it thank you very bloody much. Saved for 3 and a half years out of uni, and was hard work. Did live at home for a year of it though I do admit (although was working as a labourer at the time).

 

£10k a year cold profit? Nice work if you can get it!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Your grandparents should have worked harder [emoji3]

 

Damn straight. Feckless.

[badgerx16]

So, which party is going to clamp down on lazy code monkeys and feckless Business Analysts ?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So, which party is going to clamp down on lazy code monkeys and feckless Business Analysts ?

 

I'm still at ****ing work, livid.

[trousers]

Not sure if I agree with this or not...

 

[Special K]

If you're born/brought up on a council estate it's pretty darned hard to get out of it. Everything is conspiring against you in the same way that everything is conspiring for you if you are sent to a private school. Regardless of your abilities or talents. A lot of that is soft stuff - from understanding your own potential, to have goals and aspirations, to going to a school that can get the best out of you, to having confidence in a job interview, and not doubting yourself when the going gets tough. Some of it is more practical - not having money to take risks like more affluent classes can. Some of it is prejudice - employers only considering people from Oxbridge backgrounds. Working hard comes off the back of all of this, but on its own it's not enough.

 

Since Universities became less elitist, it has certainly open things up a bit, but only so far.

 

Why is it assumed that one needs to leave a council estate? I spent the first 20 years on my life growing up in one and found it a terrific place, full of decent people, green spaces and community spirit. I certainly didn't feel as if opportunity was suppressed for me, but i agree that expectation levels were probably lower than they need to be. My folks still live in the same house I grew up in and although the estate has changed a little (more cars, drives and student lets), it's still a fine place indeed. I;m still in touch with some of my old mates from schooldays who grew up in the estate and there are a good number who have made a very good life for themselves - and by that i don't just mean materially - based upon the strong work ethic, sense of community and loving family situations that shaped the way the estate worked.

[pap]

So, which party is going to clamp down on lazy code monkeys and feckless Business Analysts ?

The three great virtues of a good coder are laziness, impatience and hubris.

[Coxford_lou]

Why is it assumed that one needs to leave a council estate? I spent the first 20 years on my life growing up in one and found it a terrific place, full of decent people, green spaces and community spirit. I certainly didn't feel as if opportunity was suppressed for me, but i agree that expectation levels were probably lower than they need to be. My folks still live in the same house I grew up in and although the estate has changed a little (more cars, drives and student lets), it's still a fine place indeed. I;m still in touch with some of my old mates from schooldays who grew up in the estate and there are a good number who have made a very good life for themselves - and by that i don't just mean materially - based upon the strong work ethic, sense of community and loving family situations that shaped the way the estate worked.

 

Hi Special K - I don't think that was the assumption at all. In fact Pap has expressed a similar point of view as you, and I get that. The point was made in response to Jeff's view that all you need to do to get what you want is work hard. Whereas, I think that's an overly simplistic point of view. But there's no judgement there on whether you should have that aspiration or not in the first place. Only that if you do, there are a lot of elements conspiring against you.

 

My experience of my estate was pretty claustrophobic, but very entertaining.. Whereas I often find middle class areas pretty soulless. I guess that's southern life for you.

[badgerx16]

The three great virtues of a good coder are laziness, impatience and hubris.

 

32 years ago I started out as a programmer, on proper computers - they filled rooms and you fed them punched cards. 3 years later I moved into 'proper' IT, doing operating systems and network configuration & management. Obviously I lacked those 3 great virtues or I would have stayed with the easy life.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not sure if I agree with this or not...

 

 

In some philosophies it's a sin to die rich.

[pap]

32 years ago I started out as a programmer, on proper computers - they filled rooms and you fed them punched cards. 3 years later I moved into 'proper' IT, doing operating systems and network configuration & management. Obviously I lacked those 3 great virtues or I would have stayed with the easy life.

 

It's even easier now. The stuff I did at tech college was harder. The scope of projects has become enormous, but we're generally building them with "bricks" as opposed to "atoms".

 

The laziness thing is important. I hate doing anything twice, especially if it's a long-winded process which is prone to error. One of my first jobs was a dual role Unix Sys Admin and coder, which pretty much set the tone of my career. Any support request that came in more than once typically got a program written for it.

 

But yeah, modern day coders are standing on the shoulders of giants.

[SuperMikey]

In some philosophies it's a sin to die rich.

 

Which are...?

[Batman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3034312/The-married-Lib-Dem-feminist-drunken-strip-club-night-temptation-caught-camera.html

 

good lad

Edited 11 April, 2015 by Batman

[trousers]

In some philosophies it's a sin to die rich.

In most cases, 'Not dying poor' doesn't equate to 'Dying rich'...

[aintforever]

We're all ****ing poor compared to that c*nt.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It's all about the burden of responsibility for me. Some think the responsibility is on the state and their surroundings, some on the individual. As with pretty much everything in life, and certainly on this thread, the reality is somewhere in the middle.

[trousers]

We're all ****ing poor compared to that c*nt.

I agree. Giving 95% of your wealth to help others is dreadful behaviour. Doesn't he realise that governments are much more efficient at wealth distribution than individuals FFS?!

[Wes Tender]

I agree. Giving 95% of your wealth to help others is dreadful behaviour. Doesn't he realise that governments are much more efficient at wealth distribution than individuals FFS?!

 

Yes, but aintforever isn't getting any of it, that's the problem.

[aintforever]

I agree. Giving 95% of your wealth to help others is dreadful behaviour. Doesn't he realise that governments are much more efficient at wealth distribution than individuals FFS?!

 

I admire Bill Gates for what he gives to charity and what he has achieved but that quote is complete bullsh!t.

 

I suppose the poor who die in Africa do so because it is their fault? I earn an above average salary in a wealthy country, it puts me in the top 0.4% richest on Earth. My wealth is 99% down to luck, I'm lucky to have been born in a great country, I'm luck to have decent parents, and I'm lucky I have the skills I was born with. It would be arrogant to claim people who are poorer than me are to blame.

Edited 11 April, 2015 by aintforever

[CB Fry]

I admire Bill Gates for what he gives to charity and what he has achieved but that quote is complete bullsh!t.

 

I suppose the poor who die in Africa do so because it is there fault? I earn an above average salary in a wealthy country, it puts me in the top 0.4% richest on Earth. My wealth is 99% down to luck, I'm lucky to have been born in a great country, I'm luck to have decent parents, and I'm lucky I have the skills I was born with. It would be arrogant to claim people who are poorer than me are to blame.

If our Jeff was born in an African township he'd have still bought his first house in southern England by the age of 30. Just hard work innit.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I admire Bill Gates for what he gives to charity and what he has achieved but that quote is complete bullsh!t.

 

I suppose the poor who die in Africa do so because it is there fault? I earn an above average salary in a wealthy country, it puts me in the top 0.4% richest on Earth. My wealth is 99% down to luck, I'm lucky to have been born in a great country, I'm luck to have decent parents, and I'm lucky I have the skills I was born with. It would be arrogant to claim people who are poorer than me are to blame.

Self made billionaires tend to think that because they did it, anyone can. It's not true

[Whitey Grandad]

Which are...?

 

Mine for a start. Send me all your money and I'll send you an enrolment form

[pap]

I agree. Giving 95% of your wealth to help others is dreadful behaviour. Doesn't he realise that governments are much more efficient at wealth distribution than individuals FFS?!

 

The best you can say about the efficiency of the private sector is that sometimes, it is fiscally efficient. Successfully run firms will pull more cash than they spend. However, let's not kid ourselves. It's not efficient from a resources perspective. There is so much waste from so many quarters. Personal ambition, poor management and/or resource planning, feats of accounting prestidigitation by employing contractors, who don't appear on the headcount, rather than the permanent employees that do.

 

Now I'm not trying to pretend that the public sector does not suffer from many of the same problems. However, it's a nonsense to suggest that private industry is inherently any less dysfunctional than the public sector, particularly when it comes to resource management and efficiency. The main difference for me is the private sector's ability to raise and distribute cash as it sees fit. It doesn't have to debate or get a popular mandate. It just needs to make good commercial decisions.

 

Stepping back a bit and examining the system as a whole, it's terribly inefficient. If you and I economise, we're cutting our cloth. The economy is "make more and more stuff in the hope that it sells", endlessly. Western consumerism caters for wants far more than needs, which isn't very efficient. The market is mature enough to have gradation in almost every sector, with the lower end stuff being of poorer quality and a needing to be replace quicker than the higher end stuff.

 

One thing that makes me laugh is the claim that competition drives efficiency. I have no contention with the idea that it drives the internal efficiency of companies; show me a well-run firm that isn't looking to cut costs. The problem is that competition is inherently inefficient on a wider scale. Firms spend huge sums of money on product development, marketing and advertising in order to beat the other guy. We're locked into a yearly commercial release cycle which means that firms need to iterate their products, even if they are perfectly serviceable.

 

Cost is king, and the huge inequalities in the globalised system have stretched supply chain by thousands of miles, adding weeks of transit time, requiring someone out in the Far East to make sure the subcontractors are doing their jobs. It's convoluted, long-winded and requires so much workaround when things go wrong, but it still looks cheaper on paper. Same deal with this army of Indian hotshot coders that have been threatening my livelihood for the last two decades.

 

Fiscal efficiency ain't resource efficiency, and a lot of the time, the private sector cannot even manage that.

[SuperMikey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32260220

 

Tories resorting to unfunded spending pledges to try and cajole voters into voting for them. I would say they are at serious risk of losing a large share of their vote to UKIP, it's been an utterly p!ss poor campaign by the Conservatives so far - they should be storming ahead in the polls but they're failing to even gain a lead at the moment.

 

Latest YouGov poll (9-10 April)

LAB - 35% (+1)

CON - 33% (-2)

UKIP - 13% (+1)

LDEM - 8% (-0)

GRN - 5% (+1)