Batman Posted 6 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January, 2015 I would be happy to see Luke McCormick frozen out of football as well but I can see the difference between the two in the intent. McCormick didn't mean to kill anyone (and I think he has shown remorse) whereas a rapist purposely ruins the life of the girl. so, killing people, by doing something illegal but by accident is alright(ish) and live and let live etc what if I had a gun, walked down town pointing at people and it went bang by accident, i would not have meant it! I really believe that getting into a car shyt faced and drive is like a handling a deadly weapon. what if even never meant to rape her, he was also under the influence. what if he mistakenly thought he heard her say YES.....after all, when drink is involved, it is OK if you never meant it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 All I can think of with Evans is that the fact that he still can't accept that what he has done is wrong and he and his pals have continued to torment the victim. McCormick has shown remorse and accepts his responsibility in causing death. I don't know much about the other 2. Perhaps all of them shouldn't be allowed to play professional football anymore but I think that outrage re Evans is more about his attitude. There are also people who cause death by dangerous driving who are not drunk, they have just made an error of judgement on the road that has ended someone's life. Murder it aint but it still has the same end result - someone dies. As I said earlier the degrees of separation are not huge but intent does play a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 so, killing people, by doing something illegal but by accident is alright(ish) and live and let live etc what if I had a gun, walked down town pointing at people and it went bang by accident, i would not have meant it! I really believe that getting into a car shyt faced and drive is like a handling a deadly weapon. what if even never meant to rape her, he was also under the influence. what if he mistakenly thought he heard her say YES.....after all, when drink is involved, it is OK if you never meant it I didn't say it is OK but there is an obvious difference. Some people drink drive all the time and don't hurt a fly. It's a serious crime but there is a certain stigma to rape. Evans is a c*nt, I couldn't care less if him being frozen out seems unfair. F*ck him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 All I can think of with Evans is that the fact that he still can't accept that what he has done is wrong and he and his pals have continued to torment the victim. McCormick has shown remorse and accepts his responsibility in causing death. tbf mccormick didn't had a lot of choice, he'd of tried to weasel out of it if the evidence was Flimsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January, 2015 I didn't say it is OK but there is an obvious difference. Some people drink drive all the time and don't hurt a fly. It's a serious crime but there is a certain stigma to rape. Evans is a c*nt, I couldn't care less if him being frozen out seems unfair. F*ck him. some people have threesomes all the time and dont get dont for rape.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 some people have threesomes all the time and dont get dont for rape.... Some people eat sandwiches all the time and don't get done for murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 some people have threesomes all the time and dont get dont for rape.... Evans is guilty of rape though. Big difference between that and stirring your mates porridge with consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January, 2015 Evans is guilty of rape though. Big difference between that and stirring your mates porridge with consent. and McCormick is guilty of killing people. they both made a choice to break the law (under the influence) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 and McCormick is guilty of killing people. they both made a choice to break the law (under the influence) I would happily see that c*nt kicked out of football as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 and McCormick is guilty of killing people. they both made a choice to break the law (under the influence) You seem very upset that Luke McCormack is allowed to continue his career but also very upset that Ched Evans isn't. So, in true Delldays style, like, how does that work? If McCormack working is so wrong, then what's happening to Evans is the right thing, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January, 2015 I would happily see that c*nt kicked out of football as well. which is fair enough Just the point that WSS made, there is was little of the outpouring of social (network) rage for him I suspect had Luke McCormick was released from jail tomorrow, he would get it just like Evans (maybe worse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 Couldn't have put it better myself: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/the-online-petition-is-simply-a-21st-century-version-of-the-lynch-mob/ Well, I probably could have done but for my veil of modesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 6 January, 2015 Share Posted 6 January, 2015 Couldn't have put it better myself: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/the-online-petition-is-simply-a-21st-century-version-of-the-lynch-mob/ Well, I probably could have done but for my veil of modesty. Ha. I've just had an email from the original Ched Evans petition author to sign another one directed at the PFA/FA to ban people convicted of sexual violence from playing football professionally. I done gone and signed it. Quite fun to weird an electronic pitchfork for a couple of minutes. Basically I am up there with Rosa Parks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January, 2015 Quite fun to weird an electronic pitchfork for a couple of minutes. Basically I am up there with Rosa Parks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 some people have threesomes all the time and dont get dont for rape.... probably because no one got raped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 and McCormick is guilty of killing people. they both made a choice to break the law (under the influence) He is but he didnt murder anyone and I am prety sure his intention when he drove off wasnt to kill anyone. Unless Evans walked into the hotel room with a stiffy, fell over and by accident impailed the girl with his member I am pretty sure his intention was to have sex with the girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Plenty of professional bodies will strip you of your membership if you get a serious criminal conviction, why not the the PFA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Ha. I've just had an email from the original Ched Evans petition author to sign another one directed at the PFA/FA to ban people convicted of sexual violence from playing football professionally. I done gone and signed it. Quite fun to weird an electronic pitchfork for a couple of minutes. Basically I am up there with Rosa Parks. Have you signed one / did you sign one way back in the day, to get Phil Taylor banned from playing darts professionally? If not, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 (edited) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11327860/The-Ched-Evans-case-has-become-a-lightning-rod-for-irrationality.html Those trying to single out Ched Evans, those inflicting the justice of the mob upon him, are attacking the same criminal justice system that Evans' supporters criticise, just from another front. Sums it up nicely IMO Edited 7 January, 2015 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 All I can think of with Evans is that the fact that he still can't accept that what he has done is wrong and he and his pals have continued to torment the victim. McCormick has shown remorse and accepts his responsibility in causing death. I don't know much about the other 2. Perhaps all of them shouldn't be allowed to play professional football anymore but I think that outrage re Evans is more about his attitude. There are also people who cause death by dangerous driving who are not drunk, they have just made an error of judgement on the road that has ended someone's life. Murder it aint but it still has the same end result - someone dies. As I said earlier the degrees of separation are not huge but intent does play a part. I can why understand this lack of remorse issue is compounding the general feeling against Evans, however as David Walsh of the Sunday Times said, if Evans truely believes that he is a victim of a miscarriage of justice, then why on earth is anyone surprised that he is not showing remorse. on a more practical point, it is not exactly going to help this appeal if he starts apologising for his actions. on the point of whether he should be allowed to play football again. The main arguement put forward is that he would be a role model to the young. Maybe there is something in that, although apart from footballing skills, are footballers really role models for how to live your life? I'm not sure. I think one of the main reasons is people don't want him to have the privileged lifestyle of a footballer, ie money. Therefore what job would people be happy for him to have? If hypothetically (and this is unlikely!!) he subsequently became an investment banker (ignoring FCA for the moment) with the ability to earn millions from flogging stocks, I suspect the public outcry would be just as strong, but not because he would be a role model (as investment bankers are not) but because he would be able earn big money. I cannot see Evans returning to football in this country in the next twelve months because as soon as a club puts their heads above the parapet, they get more flak that it's worth. The general attitude will be "it's hard enough to run a club without making life harder for yourself". However once the dust has settled, and he has finished whatever appeals processes that are available, I suspect there will be a club that will give him a go. As mentioned in my earlier post, guilty or not, Evans is a first grade arsehole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 7 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January, 2015 He is but he didnt murder anyone and I am prety sure his intention when he drove off wasnt to kill anyone. Unless Evans walked into the hotel room with a stiffy, fell over and by accident impailed the girl with his member I am pretty sure his intention was to have sex with the girl. How do you know what his intentions were when he drove off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Have you signed one / did you sign one way back in the day, to get Phil Taylor banned from playing darts professionally? If not, why not? I think the "but why isn't every similar situation in history not the same as this" angle has been well covered by Batman. I look forward to reading your thread demanding Rolf Harris is back on TV the minute he walks out of his prison doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11327860/The-Ched-Evans-case-has-become-a-lightning-rod-for-irrationality.html Sums it up nicely IMO If it takes a "mob" (lol) to change football's rules to stop convicted rapists playing professionally then so be it. I wouldn't want a rapist at Saints. That article is classic newspaper columnists trying to "move the story on" through boredom. Comes from the same thinking of "I like equality for women but it's gone too far the other way now" pub bore bulls hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 How do you know what his intentions were when he drove off? Because he'd have been done for murder and not death by dangerous driving if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 How do you know what his intentions were when he drove off? Thats daft. Drink drivers don't get it the car with the intention of killing someone. They get in the car with the intention of going home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Thats daft. Drink drivers don't get it the car with the intention of killing someone. They get in the car with the intention of going home. Tbf not all rapists would have intended to rape someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Tbf not all rapists would have intended to rape someone. And also tbf, if this legal approach is upheld under review, I think there will be quite a few that won't know they have raped someone even after the event. To be clear I don't include Evans in that, because I think what he did is wrong, but a more widespread approach of conviction even if the victim didn't actually say no would be a bit of a nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Tbf not all rapists would have intended to rape someone. So how do rapists unintentionally have non consensual sex. Are you saying their ****s go on auto pilot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 So how do rapists unintentionally have non consensual sex. Are you saying their ****s go on auto pilot? It is possible for someone to be convicted of rape without them believing at the time that they raped someone. They may for example have believed that the other person had consented. It's why it's often such a difficult crime to prosecute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900150/Rapist-footballer-Ched-Evans-handed-two-half-year-contract-Oldham-Athletic-tomorrow-despite-opposition-sponsors-campaigners.html Convicted rapist Ched Evans is on the brink of returning to professional football today as MailOnline can exclusively reveal his move to Oldham Athletic will be announced on Thursday. Barring any last minute issues, the former Sheffield United striker will join the League One club on a two-and-a-half year deal, likely to be worth between £1,500 and £2,500-a-week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-oldham-athletic_n_6423468.html?1420625396 As per trousers post above looks like he has got his contract. I think it was hutch or hatch that said a few days ago they thought they had already signed him......that's looking a fair shout now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 It is possible for someone to be convicted of rape without them believing at the time that they raped someone. They may for example have believed that the other person had consented. It's why it's often such a difficult crime to prosecute. The chance is they could have consented and said 'yes', but been drunk or on drugs, and not having the mental capacity to make that decision - this case is an example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 The chance is they could have consented and said 'yes', but been drunk or on drugs, and not having the mental capacity to make that decision - this case is an example of that. Yes quite possibly but in other cases it could be a case of a lack of communication or misunderstanding. It sounds outlandish but things like this do end up in court. The point that CB saint made was that rape is worse than death by dangerous driving because there is intent behind a rape. I was simply pointing out that that is not always true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I can why understand this lack of remorse issue is compounding the general feeling against Evans, however as David Walsh of the Sunday Times said, if Evans truely believes that he is a victim of a miscarriage of justice, then why on earth is anyone surprised that he is not showing remorse. on a more practical point, it is not exactly going to help this appeal if he starts apologising for his actions. on the point of whether he should be allowed to play football again. The main arguement put forward is that he would be a role model to the young. Maybe there is something in that, although apart from footballing skills, are footballers really role models for how to live your life? I'm not sure. I think one of the main reasons is people don't want him to have the privileged lifestyle of a footballer, ie money. Therefore what job would people be happy for him to have? If hypothetically (and this is unlikely!!) he subsequently became an investment banker (ignoring FCA for the moment) with the ability to earn millions from flogging stocks, I suspect the public outcry would be just as strong, but not because he would be a role model (as investment bankers are not) but because he would be able earn big money. I cannot see Evans returning to football in this country in the next twelve months because as soon as a club puts their heads above the parapet, they get more flak that it's worth. The general attitude will be "it's hard enough to run a club without making life harder for yourself". However once the dust has settled, and he has finished whatever appeals processes that are available, I suspect there will be a club that will give him a go. As mentioned in my earlier post, guilty or not, Evans is a first grade arsehole. Given that he has been found guilty by 12 of his peers for the crime of rape, you would think at the very least that he could see that in the eyes of some people he has done wrong and shown some remorse for that. He still thinks that what he did was perfetly acceptable. How many of us think it is ok to walk into a hotel room, have sex with someone we met 30 seconds before and who was having sex with a mate and walk out again? He must have known that his other mates were outside the window trying to film it too. Nice. In his head he did nothing wrong. According to the CJS he did. Anyway with one iota of decency should see that there is an issue here and to slag off the victim as has happened on his web site just adds to the blokes myopia. As for being a role model. I idolised Ron Davies when I was younger and I am sure kids idolise footballers nowdays - why where their names on the back of your shirt if you dont hold them in some kind of esteem. What mssage is Evans sending to the kids who see him as some kind of Saturday afternoon hero? Treat women like doormats and that is fine. For me it doesnt work. How can you chant the name of someone who acts like he has done? He has the right to earn a living and I dont care how much money he makes, but he needs to go and crawl under a rock somewhere well out of the public eye IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 How do you know what his intentions were when he drove off? I don't but I would be very surprised if he sat there and thought, right, lets see who I can run over and kill. Have you ever raped anybody? Have you ever driven over the limit? I have never raped anybody but I certainly have driven over the limit - hell, the roads were full of law breakers in the 70s. I think you need to think about intent. As has been said, people climbing into their cars after a drink mean to go home. That is very different to booking a hotel room that you intend to use for sex, getting a text from a mate who has picked up a drunk girl, pitching up, having sex with her for a few minutes and then leaving (he was sober by the way). He could of saved himself a lot of bother if he had just nailed a pro - but he is too arrogant to pay for it. As he said to the police, he could have any girl in te clubs he wanted. Shame he couldnt get someone who wasnt off their face! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 It is possible for someone to be convicted of rape without them believing at the time that they raped someone. They may for example have believed that the other person had consented. It's why it's often such a difficult crime to prosecute. It is a difficult crime to prosecute because it is hard to prove whether consent has been given. In the event the person having sex with someone else usually knows if it is against their will or not. If the other person is out of it and not a regular partner, why even take the risk? Evans probably didnt even know the name of the person he raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Have you ever raped anybody? Have you ever driven over the limit? I have never raped anybody but I certainly have driven over the limit Have you, or do you know of anyone, who has ever had sex with someone who had been drinking? If yes, how did you/they know whether the level of alcohol was below or above the level whereby "consent" was reliable? (Just asking the obvious devil's advocate questions before someone accuses me of trying to justify or mitigate Evans's actions.) I think what people are trying to articulate here is that there is seemingly a very grey area when it comes to consent where alcohol is involved, which might explain why Evans is convinced he hasn't done anything wrong (Legally that is. I don't think there's any doubt about the morality side of things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 7 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January, 2015 It is a difficult crime to prosecute because it is hard to prove whether consent has been given. In the event the person having sex with someone else usually knows if it is against their will or not. If the other person is out of it and not a regular partner, why even take the risk? Evans probably didnt even know the name of the person he raped. I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. Male or female? I would just think yourself very lucky then. By the way, what does "very illegal" mean? Are there degrees of illegality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I was under the impression Evans was sober? Is anyone else able to clear this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. So how do you know anything happened? Did you wake up with a sore ar*e and a fiver tucked in your top pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 7 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January, 2015 So how do you know anything happened? Did you wake up with a sore ar*e and a fiver tucked in your top pocket I remember waking up and my draws in my room were all open and I (foolishly) had £300 in one of them....gone my own fault. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I was under the impression Evans was sober? Is anyone else able to clear this up? Yes he was, which means that if he had caused death by dangerous driving that would have been ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 Yes he was, which means that if he had caused death by dangerous driving that would have been ok. Right, thought so. As expected, this then, is irrelevant. Much like the threesome comment. I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I tell you what, Oldham have some massive balls don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. If i were you I'd go to the police - you may well have been raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I remember waking up and my draws in my room were all open and I (foolishly) had £300 in one of them....gone my own fault. lol An old workmate of mine used to be in the navy. Before shore leave on one occasion one of the senior officers reminded the crew about taking precautions. One of them piped up and said that he always took precautions - he locked the door and kept his money in his sock! Apart from losing £300 I hope you didnt have to visit the STD clinic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 7 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January, 2015 An old workmate of mine used to be in the navy. Before shore leave on one occasion one of the senior officers reminded the crew about taking precautions. One of them piped up and said that he always took precautions - he locked the door and kept his money in his sock! Apart from losing £300 I hope you didnt have to visit the STD clinic? lets leave this one at the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 I have pulled (or in some cases, been pulled) whilst smashed. and had no idea what happened. If the girl you pulled had phoned her mate Big Dave whilst you were blotto, and he came in and raped you I bet you would feel a bit violated though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 7 January, 2015 Share Posted 7 January, 2015 If the girl you pulled had phoned her mate Big Dave whilst you were blotto, and he came in and raped you I bet you would feel a bit violated though. While his mates tried to film you through the window. Oh and then hounded and harassed you, and broke your anonymity, and forced you to change your identity several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts