Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[whelk]

Egg Fried R-isis

 

Very good

[whelk]

 

And Guardian mentioning 80% don't

http://www.theguardian.com/media/reality-check/2015/nov/23/does-the-suns-claim-about-uk-muslims-sympathy-for-jihadis-stack-up?CMP=twt_a-media_b-gdnmedia

[sadoldgit]

It is worth reading the comments in The Guardian before getting in a tiz about this. I also love the bit on the left about Charles blaming Climate Change on the rise of IS and global terrorism.

[Sour Mash]

Hardly surprising 20% have sympathy.

 

Just pick out stuff like this at random http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion.

[CB Fry]

 

And Guardian mentioning 80% don't

http://www.theguardian.com/media/reality-check/2015/nov/23/does-the-suns-claim-about-uk-muslims-sympathy-for-jihadis-stack-up?CMP=twt_a-media_b-gdnmedia

The problem with the survey is shown up by this:

 

"In fact, an earlier poll by the same company carried out in March for Sky News showed that 4.3% of non-Muslims expressed “a lot of sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria”. Meanwhile, 9.4% expressed “some sympathy”, suggesting that attitudes held by the Muslim and non-Muslim populations are not that different when these questions are asked"

 

So the index of Muslims vs non-muslims on the question is not quite as dramatic as the headlines suggests. "Do you have sympathy" is a awful, vague question and the research agency deserve to be stoned to death for setting it.

[The9]

The problem with the survey is shown up by this:

 

"In fact, an earlier poll by the same company carried out in March for Sky News showed that 4.3% of non-Muslims expressed “a lot of sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria”. Meanwhile, 9.4% expressed “some sympathy”, suggesting that attitudes held by the Muslim and non-Muslim populations are not that different when these questions are asked"

 

So the index of Muslims vs non-muslims on the question is not quite as dramatic as the headlines suggests. "Do you have sympathy" is a awful, vague question and the research agency deserve to be stoned to death for setting it.

 

It quite nicely captures "I feel sorry for them for thinking killing people is a solution" for a start, which is hardly support for extremism.

[Batman]

Nostradamus was ITK

 

[CB Fry]

Nostradamus was ITK

 

He was basically the K Billy Supersound of geopolitical forecasting.

[Goatboy]

He was basically the K Billy Supersound of geopolitical forecasting.

 

[buctootim]

"Do you have sympathy" is a awful, vague question and the research agency deserve to be stoned to death for setting it.

 

Or given a hefty bonus by News International. I have some sympathy with them - mostly they lead dead ends lives of petty crime and drug dealing and have so little hope for the future that going to Syria to get a women who is forced to marry them and then get killed seems a viable option. Having some sympathy for the individual doesnt preclude being happy for them to be wiped out or jailed.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Or given a hefty bonus by News International. I have some sympathy with them - mostly they lead dead ends lives of petty crime and drug dealing and have so little hope for the future that going to Syria to get a women who is forced to marry them and then get killed seems a viable option. Having some sympathy for the individual doesnt preclude being happy for them to be wiped out or jailed.

 

History shows us that restless young men going away to fight in other peoples wars is a recognisable phenomenon that we see repeated time and time again - think the International Brigades and the Spanish Civil War for example. Why on earth a few British-Muslim families - mum, dad, old folk, children and all - should think it desirable to relocate to a warzone as manifestly dangerous as Syria is at this time remains rather less easy to understand.

[CB Fry]

Today, Egypt.

 

http://gu.com/p/4ef6n?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tapatalk

[buctootim]

Russian jet shot down by Turkey, apparently.

https://www.rt.com/news/323215-warplane-crash-syria-turkey/

[sadoldgit]

Some confusion about whether it was in Turkey's air space or not.

[Window Cleaner]

Some confusion about whether it was in Turkey's air space or not.

 

 

Trigger happy Turks......

Situation has gotten far too complicated...probably for the benefit of the ..."bad guys" whomsoever that may be.

[dinger]

It quite nicely captures "I feel sorry for them for thinking killing people is a solution" for a start, which is hardly support for extremism.

 

It also doesn't differentiate between the different parties fighting in Syria. They might be expressing sympathy for those going to fight against ISIS.

 

I see today that this Sun story has received a record number of complaints. And quite rightly. Trying to provoke division and ill-feeling is not only hugely irresponsible, it's also exactly what ISIS are trying to achieve.

[Dig Dig]

It also doesn't differentiate between the different parties fighting in Syria. They might be expressing sympathy for those going to fight against ISIS.

 

I see today that this Sun story has received a record number of complaints. And quite rightly. Trying to provoke division and ill-feeling is not only hugely irresponsible, it's also exactly what ISIS are trying to achieve.

 

Unfortunately the damage is already done as the headline will be stuck with the many of the millions who will have seen it. Job done, The Sun.

[sadoldgit]

It also doesn't differentiate between the different parties fighting in Syria. They might be expressing sympathy for those going to fight against ISIS.

 

I see today that this Sun story has received a record number of complaints. And quite rightly. Trying to provoke division and ill-feeling is not only hugely irresponsible, it's also exactly what ISIS are trying to achieve.

 

Glad to hear that people are reacting to The Sun's headline. Perhaps they (they being The Sun's Editorial team) will start to realise that people aren't as stupid as they think they are and are not going to put up with their BS.

[hypochondriac]

Glad to hear that people are reacting to The Sun's headline. Perhaps they (they being The Sun's Editorial team) will start to realise that people aren't as stupid as they think they are and are not going to put up with their BS.

 

But you considered people to be very stupid when you suggested that sun headlines were helping to recruit people for ISIS? So either people are clever and realise that many of the headlines are rubbish or they are stupid and believe everything that the sun tells them. Which is it?

[sadoldgit]

Oh dear. Do you really believe that it has to be one or the other? It is entirely possible that it can affect people in different ways. As an earlier posted said, many will buy into the headline at face value. You really need to stop trying to score points and engage your brain a little more mate.

[hypochondriac]

Oh dear. Do you really believe that it has to be one or the other? It is entirely possible that it can affect people in different ways. As an earlier posted said, many will buy into the headline at face value. You really need to stop trying to score points and engage your brain a little more mate.

 

I thought you had me on ignore because you were beneath all that? Your principles didn't last long!

 

So actually we have no idea if these IS people are being recruited by sun headlines, they could very easily be some of the media savvy ones who disregard silly newspaper headlines.

[whelk]

Glad to hear that people are reacting to The Sun's headline. Perhaps they (they being The Sun's Editorial team) will start to realise that people aren't as stupid as they think they are and are not going to put up with their BS.

 

Rebekah Brooks back and still have Mackenzie on payroll. They don't give a sh it. The complaints will be probably be something orchestrated on social media rather than Sun readers I imagine

[shurlock]

Just a shame that the poll's methodology is being taken apart now - might have helped quite a few helmets on here when they were gleefully and unreservedly throwing around similar numbers a few pages back. Page 10 makes for particularly pretty grim reading

 

Still, it's good to see that some have since quietly repented, even if they'll never admit it Now for the rest of the tits that take such things at face value...

Edited 24 November, 2015 by shurlock

[whelk]

Just a shame that the poll's methodology is being taken apart now - might have helped quite a few helmets on here when they were gleefully and unreservedly throwing around similar numbers a few pages back. Page 10 makes for particularly pretty grim reading

 

Still, it's good to see that some have since quietly repented, even if they'll never admit it Now for the rest of the tits that take such things at face value...

 

Published on Monday wasn't it? Hardly a long time.

 

This place is all about oneupmanship for you isn't it?

[Sour Mash]

Just a shame that the poll's methodology is being taken apart now - might have helped quite a few helmets on here when they were gleefully and unreservedly throwing around similar numbers a few pages back. Page 10 makes for particularly pretty grim reading

 

Still, it's good to see that some have since quietly repented, even if they'll never admit it Now for the rest of the tits that take such things at face value...

How upset do you sound

[shurlock]

How upset do you sound

 

Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact, if you believe Whelk. You want to rethink post 1004?

[Sour Mash]

Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact, if you believe Whelk. You want to rethink post 1004?

Me? Why would I?

[sadoldgit]

Just a shame that the poll's methodology is being taken apart now - might have helped quite a few helmets on here when they were gleefully and unreservedly throwing around similar numbers a few pages back. Page 10 makes for particularly pretty grim reading

 

Still, it's good to see that some have since quietly repented, even if they'll never admit it Now for the rest of the tits that take such things at face value...

 

Indeed!

[sadoldgit]

Rebekah Brooks back and still have Mackenzie on payroll. They don't give a sh it. The complaints will be probably be something orchestrated on social media rather than Sun readers I imagine

 

You could well be right Whelk. They cant lose. The headline panders to the readers they are after the any "outrage" will only give them more publicity. It is a well oiled machine.

[sadoldgit]

Published on Monday wasn't it? Hardly a long time.

 

This place is all about oneupmanship for you isn't it?

 

This was a different poll Whelk, commissioned after the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

[Batman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

[Window Cleaner]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

 

It's a total mess really, each faction and nation involved has it's own objective in view.None of them want the same end result.

Doubt if anyone in the UK has reported that the EI now have an unexploded french 500 kg smart bomb to parade around.

[Guan 2.0]

Daily Mail accused of paying for, and then destroying, CCTV evidence of attacks on the Cafe district.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/24/daily-mail-cctv-video-paris-attack

 

Absolutely deplorable stuff, even more so because its an actual accusation backed up by plausible collation of sources, and not a sly rhetorical device used to detract from an atrocity, plucked from thin air.

[holepuncture]

Going off in France again:

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1593694/armed-men-take-hostages-in-french-town

[ART]

"I am Algerian, and only have been French for my work........... I will never sing the Marseillaise" Just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

http://www.theweek.co.uk/67166/karim-benzema-accused-of-paris-attack-insult-at-el-clasico

[ART]

[whelk]

Going off in France again:

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1593694/armed-men-take-hostages-in-french-town

 

That actually might not be jihadist linked.

 

C4 news

[Guan 2.0]

That actually might not be jihadist linked.

 

C4 news

 

Initial reports suggest a bank robbery. Nothing concrete thus far.

[Batman]

http://news.sky.com/story/1593808/reports-russian-jet-shot-in-syrian-airspace

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3332790/Monstrous-new-crisis-Russia-s-downed-jet-Putin-s-fury-stab-terror-accomplices-Moscow-analyst-warns-war-likely-Moscow-analyst.html

 

this could all go wrong!!!

[dinger]

Just in the interests of balance and completeness, here's what the people who carried out that survey had to say...

 

http://survation.com/statement-on-survations-poll-of-muslims-for-the-sun/

[aintforever]

Why the **** are we getting involved. If Turkey wants to shoot down Russian planes let them idiots deal with the consequences.

[sadoldgit]

Why the **** are we getting involved. If Turkey wants to shoot down Russian planes let them idiots deal with the consequences.

 

I couldn't agree more. I note that they keep trying to mention NATO but I don't see the USA rushing to get involved. If the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 secs how did Turkey manage to issue 10 separate warnings in that time? As you say, let them sort it out with Putin,

[sadoldgit]

Good to see that gunboat diplomacy is still alive and well in the 21st century. Mind you Vlad looks like a man itching for a fight and he is not too bothered with whom. We need to keep this guy onside. F**k knows what the Turks were thinking.

[Window Cleaner]

Good to see that gunboat diplomacy is still alive and well in the 21st century. Mind you Vlad looks like a man itching for a fight and he is not too bothered with whom. We need to keep this guy onside. F**k knows what the Turks were thinking.

 

The Turks were thinking that anyone helping anyone helping the Kurds is their enemy. The Turkish attitude towards the Kurds is one of the most important sideshows of the whole affair. The Kurds are battling the EI on the ground, 10000 or so of them are 12 miles from Raqqa, if they prevail then they'll have grounds for a Kurd state and that's something that Erdoggan, an islamist at heart, will never tolerate. Then there's the case of the ethnic Syrian Turkmen who are battling against Bachar.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by Window Cleaner

[Batman]

Why the **** are we getting involved. If Turkey wants to shoot down Russian planes let them idiots deal with the consequences.

 

It is a NATO thing. bound by law or something like that

I hope we keep out of it. Certainly have no where near the kit to get involved.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Why the **** are we getting involved. If Turkey wants to shoot down Russian planes let them idiots deal with the consequences.

 

As has been mentioned above the NATO Treaty - to which Turkey is a signatory - explicitly mandates the concept of mutual defence. Article 5 of The North Atlantic Treaty:

 

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

 

So Putin will no doubt milk this incident for all its worth. He will threaten and cajole and few sabres will be left unrattled. However, he is highly unlikely to really do much because if he were to launch a retaliative attack on Turkey then the consequences for Russia (and everyone else) would be enormous.

[hypochondriac]

As has been mentioned above the NATO Treaty - to which Turkey is a signatory - explicitly mandates the concept of mutual defence. Article 5 of The North Atlantic Treaty:

 

 

 

So Putin will no doubt milk this incident for all its worth. He will threaten and cajole and few sabres will be left unrattled. However, he is highly unlikely to really do much because if he were to launch a retaliative attack on Turkey then the consequences for Russia (and everyone else) would be enormous.

 

Finally. A half decent post of yours that I actually agree with.

[Guan 2.0]

As has been mentioned above the NATO Treaty - to which Turkey is a signatory - explicitly mandates the concept of mutual defence. Article 5 of The North Atlantic Treaty:

 

 

 

So Putin will no doubt milk this incident for all its worth. He will threaten and cajole and few sabres will be left unrattled. However, he is highly unlikely to really do much because if he were to launch a retaliative attack on Turkey then the consequences for Russia (and everyone else) would be enormous.

 

Indeed. The UK and other NATO signatories are reported to be back-channelling with Russia even as I type. It's a blatant attempt by Turkey to split the permanent members of security council along cold war lines, as recent events had forged a loose understanding. That, and Turkey has been unable to funnel as many supplies, men, and ISIS Oil Drums back and forth across the border.

[Lighthouse]

Russia won't do anything too exciting against Turkey. Half their navy is drifting around the Black Sea and Turkey controls the Bosporous.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Russia won't do anything too exciting against Turkey. Half their navy is drifting around the Black Sea and Turkey controls the Bosporous.

 

Yes this Bosporus question is a very good point.

 

Although to be honest about it I don't sleep with a copy under my pillow, I do understand (i.e. Wikipedia tells me) that the 'Montreux Convention' gives Turkey full authority to close the straights to transiting foreign warships during wartime ''or at any other time that it feels threatened by aggression''. The underlined part could be significant. Unless a state of war were actually to be declared Russian merchant shipping would however still have a treaty endorsed right of transit from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean.

 

The above, along with their NATO membership, would appear to give the Turks two powerful cards to play in any stand-off with Putin's Russia. Let's all hope it doesn't get that far - for what it is worth I don't think it will.