View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
129. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    26 20.16%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    7 5.43%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.55%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    74 57.36%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.88%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    2 1.55%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 3.10%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.55%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    7 5.43%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #13801

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    I fear we are fellow alumni.
    Misselbrook, Roger Helmer - what the f**k do they put in the maxpax machine. I guess itís not all bad: thereís your esteemed self, Ian Dunt (iirc) and former conservative patriot and rebel Stephen Hammond among others.
    Last edited by shurlock; 07-09-2019 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #13802

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Misselbrook, Roger Helmer - what the f**k do they put in the maxpax machine. I guess it’s not all bad: there’s your esteemed self, Ian Dunt (iirc) and former conservative patriot and rebel Stephen Hammond among others.
    And a couple of cricketers.

    Isaac Watts.

    Craig David.

  3. #13803

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    And a couple of cricketers.

    Isaac Watts.

    Craig David.
    Craig David didn't go to KES!

  4. #13804

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Craig David didn't go to KES!
    Oh, yeah, I meant Dennis G.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Craig David didn't go to KES!
    Bellemoor boy all the way I believe. My own Alma Mater.

  6. #13806

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Bellemoor boy all the way I believe. My own Alma Mater.
    Adrian Aymes

    #legend

  7. #13807

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    I wrote this in 2016. Was writing at the time of the last election cycle.
    Sorry, didn't notice that!

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Adrian Aymes

    #legend
    Benali

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    And a couple of cricketers.

    Isaac Watts.

    Craig David.
    Bloke from the Vaccines

  10. #13810

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    New plan from Boris and the gang. I mean he could actually try to re-negotiate the deal and do some hard graft but apparently just being a **** seems like a better idea.

    Boris Johnson is threatening to sabotage the EU to make it cave in on a Brexit deal – or reject MPs’ plan to stop the UK crashing out of the bloc.
    In a dramatic escalation of its battle with Brussels, Downing Street believes it has devised a way out of the crisis to make the EU no longer “legally constituted”, paralysing its decision-making.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...cid=spartandhp

    Of course the swivels will lap it up seems like cutting of our nose to spite our face in the future dealing with the EU to me.

  11. #13811

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    New plan from Boris and the gang. I mean he could actually try to re-negotiate the deal and do some hard graft but apparently just being a **** seems like a better idea.
    You do realise that actually 're-negotiating' a deal isn't actually possible?

    Boris has already stated that in his vision of Brexit there is no border in Northern Ireland whereas the EU has stated that there will have to be a hard border. Neither side are going to change their stance unless something drastic happens so negotiation seems more pointless than a chocolate tea pot. Boris is happy to leave with no deal and watch the EU force a border on Ireland so he can then blame the EU for any resulting troubles that may or may not arise as a result....

  12. #13812

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    You do realise that actually 're-negotiating' a deal isn't actually possible?

    Boris has already stated that in his vision of Brexit there is no border in Northern Ireland whereas the EU has stated that there will have to be a hard border. Neither side are going to change their stance unless something drastic happens so negotiation seems more pointless than a chocolate tea pot. Boris is happy to leave with no deal and watch the EU force a border on Ireland so he can then blame the EU for any resulting troubles that may or may not arise as a result....
    I still don't entirely get this. Boris wants to keep a completely open border with Europe? Is that what his supporters really want? Free movement of people and goods with no checks on the border? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really can't get my head around how it fits with Brexit.

  13. #13813

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    Bloke from the Vaccines
    Also one of Trevor and Simon

  14. #13814

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    I still don't entirely get this. Boris wants to keep a completely open border with Europe? Is that what his supporters really want? Free movement of people and goods with no checks on the border? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really can't get my head around how it fits with Brexit.
    That's because it doesn't. It's something we've argued ad infinitum on this thread, and not once have we heard a sensible plan from the Brexiteers in regards to Ireland.

    The reason is, there is no solution at the moment apart from the backstop.

  15. #13815

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Also one of Trevor and Simon
    Really?

    I didn't know!

  16. #13816

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    I still don't entirely get this. Boris wants to keep a completely open border with Europe? Is that what his supporters really want? Free movement of people and goods with no checks on the border? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really can't get my head around how it fits with Brexit.
    Can one of the people who want to leave on 31 October whatever the situation tell me about this? I'm not looking to argue, I teach Norwegian students who have to research and look into Brexit and other current affairs. I can explain to them what the objections to the backstop are, I can explain the problems of a hard border, but they all ask what the no deal supporters want to do and what will happen. When the answer seems to involve keeping a border open and unchecked for goods and people coming in, they find it utterly confusing and I have no answers.

    Are you happy with an unchecked border in the UK that people can just enter through with no immigration or other control? Am I missing something about where the controls will be? Is this what you would choose rather than more discussion and negotiation to work out a solution?

  17. #13817

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Can one of the people who want to leave on 31 October whatever the situation tell me about this? I'm not looking to argue, I teach Norwegian students who have to research and look into Brexit and other current affairs. I can explain to them what the objections to the backstop are, I can explain the problems of a hard border, but they all ask what the no deal supporters want to do and what will happen. When the answer seems to involve keeping a border open and unchecked for goods and people coming in, they find it utterly confusing and I have no answers.

    Are you happy with an unchecked border in the UK that people can just enter through with no immigration or other control? Am I missing something about where the controls will be? Is this what you would choose rather than more discussion and negotiation to work out a solution?
    At present I think that the UK Government is positioning itself to keep an open border, knowing that this is unacceptable to the EU, and in the expectation that those nasty Europeans would then be forced to implement border checks, and therefore be responsible for any problems arising.

  18. #13818

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Can one of the people who want to leave on 31 October whatever the situation tell me about this? I'm not looking to argue, I teach Norwegian students who have to research and look into Brexit and other current affairs. I can explain to them what the objections to the backstop are, I can explain the problems of a hard border, but they all ask what the no deal supporters want to do and what will happen. When the answer seems to involve keeping a border open and unchecked for goods and people coming in, they find it utterly confusing and I have no answers.

    Are you happy with an unchecked border in the UK that people can just enter through with no immigration or other control? Am I missing something about where the controls will be? Is this what you would choose rather than more discussion and negotiation to work out a solution?
    Don’t expect any answers. All they know is they voted for it, so whatever it is, it has to happen.

  19. #13819

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    You do realise that actually 're-negotiating' a deal isn't actually possible?

    Boris has already stated that in his vision of Brexit there is no border in Northern Ireland whereas the EU has stated that there will have to be a hard border. Neither side are going to change their stance unless something drastic happens so negotiation seems more pointless than a chocolate tea pot. Boris is happy to leave with no deal and watch the EU force a border on Ireland so he can then blame the EU for any resulting troubles that may or may not arise as a result....
    Any trouble will be on our head, we're the ****ing idiots who voted for it. Well some of us anyway.

    As has been said continuously on this thread, a true 'Brexit' can NEVER happen because of Ireland. Which I find quite ironic and particularly funny.

  20. #13820

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    At present I think that the UK Government is positioning itself to keep an open border, knowing that this is unacceptable to the EU, and in the expectation that those nasty Europeans would then be forced to implement border checks, and therefore be responsible for any problems arising.
    Are you pro- no deal? How do you feel about an open unchecked border? Doesn't that mean the government is going back on the whole spirit of Brexit? Or with a hard border, how do you feel about re-igniting the Irish issue that took so many years and so much effort to pacify?

  21. #13821

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Are you pro- no deal?
    In no way, I'd prefer to wake up from this nightmare and find us still safely within the European family. However, I am a pragmatist and if the vote was to leave, we shold have simply left, no matter how big a mistake I feel the whole thing is. The Irish border would have very quickly seen border posts set up on the major routes, and the 'bad old' ways of smuggling across the majority of it would have returned.

    How well does tthe border between Norway and Sweden work ?
    Last edited by badgerx16; 08-09-2019 at 04:39 PM.

  22. #13822

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    So according to Sajid Javid the Government will 'obey all laws', but will not ask for a Brexit extension, even if the Benn bill, which could compel them to do so, is passed into Law.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 08-09-2019 at 05:09 PM.

  23. #13823

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    How well does tthe border between Norway and Sweden work ?
    It's very smooth flowing in my experience. I've never been stopped or checked crossing it. You just drive right through. There is, of course, a checkpoint and border security, but Norway is in Schengen, so passport checks are a rarity. The closest I've come to a check was when I arrived in Oslo by coach from Gothenburg. A customs officer approached me as I walked away from the coach. Obviously it was pretty pointless and ineffective, as he had no way of knowing where I had come from.

  24. #13824

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    So according to Sajid Javid the Government will 'obey all laws', but will not ask for a Brexit extension, even if the Benn bill, which could compel them to do so, is passed into Law.
    I think they believe they can get the EU to refuse an extension.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

  25. #13825

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think they believe they can get the EU to refuse an extension.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    I think that is indeed their new 'cunning plan', though whether it's as cunning as my socks I have no idea.

  26. #13826

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    I think that is indeed their new 'cunning plan', though whether it's as cunning as my socks I have no idea.
    Along with saying we have to get this done, implying that we'll all feel better once it's over and trying to distract attention from the appallingly bad thing that's being done to save the Tory Party.

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  27. #13827

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Along with saying we have to get this done, implying that we'll all feel better once it's over and trying to distract attention from the appallingly bad thing that's being done to save the Tory Party.

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    #NotInMyName

  28. #13828

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    Cummings' strategical genius so far has lurched between chaotic, hilariously inept and shambolic, so I'm curious to see the masterstroke he has up his sleeve.
    I suspect he's going to leap astride a Harley and head for the nearest Sealife Centre.
    Happy days.

  29. #13829

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think they believe they can get the EU to refuse an extension.

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    not possible, if they don't ask for one...

  30. #13830

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashnats View Post
    not possible, if they don't ask for one...
    That's clearly breaking the law and even Johnson has ruled out breaking the law.

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  31. #13831

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    That's clearly breaking the law and even Johnson has ruled out breaking the law.

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    really? was that the same interview where he said he would rather die in a ditch than obey that law?

  32. #13832

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashnats View Post
    really? was that the same interview where he said he would rather die in a ditch than obey that law?
    Sajid Javid was tying himself up in knots on the Andrew Marr show saying that they would obey the law that compels them to ask for an extension but that they wouldn't ask for an extension.

    Appropriate logic for these strange times.

  33. #13833

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think they believe they can get the EU to refuse an extension.

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    So their negotiating strategy was to threaten the EU with No Deal, now their plan is for the EU to choose No Deal when given the choice.

  34. #13834

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    Bercow's always one step ahead.

  35. #13835

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Bercow's always one step ahead.
    Wes will be pleased.

  36. #13836

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Bercow's always one step ahead.
    Going to miss the gnarly bastard.

  37. #13837

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    Lindsay Hoyle as new speaker ? A Labour MP from Lancashire, couldn't do better.

  38. Default

    I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for and that Boris he's such a liar


    https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBrita...7641105789492/
    Last edited by scally; 09-09-2019 at 03:52 PM.

  39. #13839

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for

    https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBrita...7641105789492/
    But Brexit isn't being blocked, Brexit with no deal is being blocked. Even Boris says no deal would be a failure.

    Agreeing to something happening isn't the same as agreeing to anything that is suggested to make it happen. I would agree to improve roads near where I live. I wouldn't accept it if they banned everything but electric cars to make it happen.

  40. #13840

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for and that Boris he's such a liar


    https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBrita...7641105789492/
    Hello pal. Come to join the fun?

  41. #13841

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    So their negotiating strategy was to threaten the EU with No Deal, now their plan is for the EU to choose No Deal when given the choice.
    lol

  42. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    But Brexit isn't being blocked, Brexit with no deal is being blocked. Even Boris says no deal would be a failure.

    Agreeing to something happening isn't the same as agreeing to anything that is suggested to make it happen. I would agree to improve roads near where I live. I wouldn't accept it if they banned everything but electric cars to make it happen.
    Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,

  43. #13843

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    Perhaps if May had bothered to instigate cross party talks and involved all of Parliament from day 1 we wouldn’t be in such a mess now?

  44. #13844

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,
    No it hasn't - they've had three opportunities to push the button on Brexit and almost all of them understand the consequences of not respecting the vote. The purists on the remainer but especially the ERG/Brexiteer group didn't want to compromise. There's plenty of people in the electorate who want it done who understand it, far less are passionate about a No Deal Brexit bar 75% of a small stub of 100k Tory members left and a smaller rump again of Brexit Party members. That's out of 17.4m that voted Leave and the 16-odd million who voted Remain who have an equal right to push for a Brexit which limits the damage to their industries and futures.

    The bigger issue is what type of Brexit and that's what the deadlock is about. A GE is looking unikely to solve that as neither the Tories or Labour are capable of commanding a majority under FTTP because they have left far too much of their middle and moderate grounds behind, especially now Boris has lost Davidson in Scotland and Labour is still bedevilled by the Anti-Semitism saga.

    I would envisage the LDs continuing their recovery taking some seats off both main parties although steady rather than spectacular. Not because Swinson is any great shakes, but she isn't the two main parties. If they went after a Norway or similar Brexit they would collect more Tory voters I suspect.

    The polls at the weekend gave Boris a good lead but the data was focused about leave voters and remember, May had a twenty point lead over Steptoe at the start of the 2017 campaign. She might have been dull but she didn't have Boris's habit of imploding, as he's already shown under pressure.

    A Norway Brexit is as much a Brexit as a No Deal, or Canada +++ even. The maths are that Norway has come far closer than anything else to passing in Parliament. The £350m and the NHS was a lie by Cummings anyway so paying a bit towards membership is hardly an electoral problem. We can then get on with a lot of neglected domestic agendas - social care, health, education, business, infrastructure, climate change, science.

    The key to unlocking this is Boris dumping Dominic Cummings this week, having his own ideas, working out with Ireland how the backstop issue can be overcome and actually seeking some cooperation, because May left that far too late. Now what you have is a game of chess with the electorate, Ireland and EU as the pawns.

  45. #13845

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    Perhaps if May had bothered to instigate cross party talks and involved all of Parliament from day 1 we wouldn’t be in such a mess now?
    And hadn't called the 2017 election.

  46. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    No it hasn't - they've had three opportunities to push the button on Brexit and almost all of them understand the consequences of not respecting the vote. The purists on the remainer but especially the ERG/Brexiteer group didn't want to compromise. There's plenty of people in the electorate who want it done who understand it, far less are passionate about a No Deal Brexit bar 75% of a small stub of 100k Tory members left and a smaller rump again of Brexit Party members. That's out of 17.4m that voted Leave and the 16-odd million who voted Remain who have an equal right to push for a Brexit which limits the damage to their industries and futures.

    The bigger issue is what type of Brexit and that's what the deadlock is about. A GE is looking unikely to solve that as neither the Tories or Labour are capable of commanding a majority under FTTP because they have left far too much of their middle and moderate grounds behind, especially now Boris has lost Davidson in Scotland and Labour is still bedevilled by the Anti-Semitism saga.

    I would envisage the LDs continuing their recovery taking some seats off both main parties although steady rather than spectacular. Not because Swinson is any great shakes, but she isn't the two main parties. If they went after a Norway or similar Brexit they would collect more Tory voters I suspect.

    The polls at the weekend gave Boris a good lead but the data was focused about leave voters and remember, May had a twenty point lead over Steptoe at the start of the 2017 campaign. She might have been dull but she didn't have Boris's habit of imploding, as he's already shown under pressure.

    A Norway Brexit is as much a Brexit as a No Deal, or Canada +++ even. The maths are that Norway has come far closer than anything else to passing in Parliament. The £350m and the NHS was a lie by Cummings anyway so paying a bit towards membership is hardly an electoral problem. We can then get on with a lot of neglected domestic agendas - social care, health, education, business, infrastructure, climate change, science.

    The key to unlocking this is Boris dumping Dominic Cummings this week, having his own ideas, working out with Ireland how the backstop issue can be overcome and actually seeking some cooperation, because May left that far too late. Now what you have is a game of chess with the electorate, Ireland and EU as the pawns.
    Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?

  47. #13847

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,
    MPs are paid to do what they think is best for their constituents, if they think the deal is sh!t then it is their duty to vote against it. Just like Boris did twice.

  48. #13848

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?
    No, but what's your point? Do you think we'd have this issue if 75% of people had voted remain in the referendum? We can all come up with ridiculous straw mans that prove nothing.

    There is a leaver as PM now - how's that going?

  49. #13849

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?
    Yes we would. Supporting Leave is not simple when you're an elected representative whose first responsibility is to protect the interests of your constituents and the country.

    It's one thing to vote Leave, when you've been promised all manner of things which turn out to be lies and fiction, and told clearly that leaving would be with a very beneficial deal, and another thing to support exit strategies (or lack of strategies) that are worse than the status quo and not in the country's interest.

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  50. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    No, but what's your point? Do you think we'd have this issue if 75% of people had voted remain in the referendum? We can all come up with ridiculous straw mans that prove nothing.

    There is a leaver as PM now - how's that going?
    What's going on at the moment means nothing, the real business starts when we have an election. The election is the referendum you've been waiting for, so do you vote for a remain party that is led by one of the biggest euro sceptics in Parliament and has a policy on Brexit that could have been thought up by Baldric or a party that wants a referendum on any deal that is agreed but has a leader that said she will not respect a vote that goes against her views, very democratic. I've voted Labour all my life but feel the party has not respected the views of a large number of it's traditional voters, they'll get destroyed in the Labour voting areas in the north. Despite everything that's gone over the last week I can't see the Tories being stopped, if Boris has to get into bed with Farage to get a majority then the actions of the rebel alliance this week may well be the catalyst for a no deal brexit.

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