The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 This may be a stupid question, but if it's not against the embargo by signing on non-contract terms why didn't Appleton do that on Monday so the trailists could play last night? That actually seems like quite a sensible question, to which the only answer is that "Appleton is very stupid". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 That's the key though. It's the definition of "Unemployed Player" in the rules. If he was registered for anyone else (i.e. they had to sign him via transfer) then he wouldn't be eligible, but as he was out of contract as a PLAYER, they could play him. Shame I can't cut and paste from that link above, it's all in there. So that don't take into account the fact that he was not actually 'unemployed'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 That actually seems like quite a sensible question, to which the only answer is that "Appleton is very stupid". More likely there is very little money to pay the non-contract players (lets no kid ourselves they are playing for free even if it's just the classic 'expenses' line) so rather than waste it on the worthless trophy game they have saved it for the league game. I'll be mighty hacked off if they get away with putting out a decent(ish) side made up of non-contract players as it makes a total mockery of the transfer embargo, but then everything they do makes a mockery of some rule or other these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I has 3 million quids. Crisis? What Crisis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 More likely there is very little money to pay the non-contract players (lets no kid ourselves they are playing for free even if it's just the classic 'expenses' line) so rather than waste it on the worthless trophy game they have saved it for the league game. I'll be mighty hacked off if they get away with putting out a decent(ish) side made up of non-contract players as it makes a total mockery of the transfer embargo, but then everything they do makes a mockery of some rule or other these days. They were only given dispensation as they didn't have a goalie & presumably as they'd sanctioned Westwood as a coach he slipped through because they took pity in a modest way on them. Not the same as a free hand though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 (edited) So that don't take into account the fact that he was not actually 'unemployed'? The definition is in the rules, I've edited above. He's an unemployed player if he doesn't have a club registration prior to the closure of the previous Transfer Window (TW), the fact he's got a job as a coach is irrelevant. And they actually can sign anyone they like who isn't registered with anyone else on non-contract terms (and can't get a transfer fee for them) as long as the TW is open. Edited 15 August, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 (edited) They were only given dispensation as they didn't have a goalie & presumably as they'd sanctioned Westwood as a coach he slipped through because they took pity in a modest way on them. Not the same as a free hand though. No, as specified in the rules linked by TopGun above, he was eligible because he wasn't registered with anyone prior to the end of the previous Transfer Window (i.e. he was a Free Agent before 1st February). There's a bit about not being able to sign players down to the Conference National in there as well, which is probably why Eastwood the keeper came from having previously been at Halifax in Conf North. He was still there in May 2012, so he DID have a registration in the last TW : http://www.bluesqfootball.com/story/0,20970,5880_7756045,00.html. Edited 16 August, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 No, as specified in the rules linked by Torres above, he was eligible because he wasn't registered with anyone prior to the end of the previous Transfer Window (i.e. he was a Free Agent before 1st February). But they can only sign players with the express permission of the FL, regardless of the players' status - which presumably they gave in these cases and not in the case of the other triallists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 If the FL board allow them to sign players with no owner in place it will be a massive injustice, even on non-contract terms. I can't believe that someone appears to have been briefing the Snooze that it's a realistic possibility. All this talk of optimism is madness. The trust takeover, with all of its problems would take a minimum of 6 weeks to go through, if at all. Birch has to pretty certain that the Trust can complete, otherwise his obligation to creditors means he has to liquidate. no one has briefed the news at all, its just the news being, well... the news...... I would think any league meeting about pompey tomorrow isnt discusing whether to lift the embargo but more than likly discusing the possibility of denying them access to the league. It's 2 days until the start, they have no owner, masses of debts and no team. Anyone got 16th August in the sweepstake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 RE non contract terms.. thats all very well, but the players will have to make sure they will be covered by their insurance. What happens if say howard gets a career ending injury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merovingian Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Dominoes for the Trust bid now. Parachute payments have already been used to compromise with the players that have left, that alone leave a great honking hole in their financial estimates. Those parachute payments were also needed as security for the short term bridging loan from the council, so that's another hole in their financial estimates. Even if they get past the next few days, I don't see how they can avoid relegation now, crowds will drop off as there'll be nothing entertaining to watch... TV money next year will be less for them, that'll be another kick to the finances... I can't see any way out of this for them now. The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. Another 3 months and another million quid for Birch then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 With your business head on what do you see happening? Too many questions to be able to say. 1) Does the fact that they now only have 18 year olds on the books mean that they are operating at break even? It so then TB could continue to run the club in Admin allowing more time to reach a solution. 2) How much will Chinny actually accept to release his charge on FP? If it is unrealistic TB could apply to court to sell it to somebody else at a realisic (or only slightly inflatated) valuation. This will take time though. 3) Can the trust raise the funds? I doubt it. 4) Might a 3rd party enter negotiations? Probably unlikely unless they are now able to trade at break even. IMO Q1 is the most important. If they are now abel to operate at break even (PP covering deferals) then they have the time to reach a solution. If not liquidation probably becomes the most likely outcome. All speculation obviously. Without knowing details none of us can make a realistic assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. Which IMO and that of many others The Trust have not got a cat in hells chance of doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. But, as andysstuff implies, the Trust surely don;t have time for that? If it took Birch all this time to get the players to agree to compromises that will cost £8 million, how easy wil it be for him to go back to them and say, "do a deal for 1/4 of what we agreed before?" Mean while the clock is ticking , and once the money that can be realised from liquidation is only just enough to pay birch's firm's bill ,he will surely liquidate? The big question is who will end up owning Fratton Park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Matt Slater @mattslaterbbc Pompey fans, @colinfarmery on 5 Live at 1650. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Another 3 months and another million quid for Birch then. The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. [/b] Which IMO and that of many others The Trust have not got a cat in hells chance of doing! Birch must be worried about the effect this continuing car crash is having on his reputation. It looks increasingly as if, far from protecting the interests of creditors, his actions (inaction?) will have led to most of the liquid assets being used to pay for his administration. Attaboy Trevor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Colin Farmery (who?) on 5live discussing poopey at 16.50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 (edited) Colin Farmery (who?) on 5live discussing poopey at 16.50 Colin Farmery (who?) PST spokesperson http://uk.linkedin.com/in/colinfarmery Edited 15 August, 2012 by tony13579 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 unless I'm an idiot and I'm always happy to be advised by those than know better, the key seems to be that for the first time the club is now worth more to Chainrai if it is liquidated. There's £3M sat in an account (has Birch claimed the other £2M PP?). Presumably this is earmarked for football creditors etc but it makes the club very briefly and falsely cash rich. Stick the ground in as well and you have a liquidation package worth claiming. No need to trade, pay creditors or endure the hassle of managers and supporters, or risk further investment - just pull the trigger, keep a straight face and claim your £3M in cash and a development opportunity that could generate another £10M. Chinny just needs to squeeze the life out of the Trust and he's there. Or does Birch intend to use this vital £3M to bring in new players and ignore the other debts, just to keep his little gravy train on the tracks for another month or two? As for this optimism from the Trust...wake up and smell the fat!! - look at the figures! Too little, too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. It still never fails to surprise me how football fans are happy to steal,beg and borrow with not a thought of the people they are effecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Surely the best option for the trust now is to use whatever funds they have to fund a phoenix club. Trying to replace Chanrai and keep the club from liquidation would just eradicate what funds they do have without ultimately ensuring survival. If I were a skate - and thank the lord I'm not - I would be begging TB to switch of the life support machine and then get to work on forming a new club. Don't suppose you've got a book signing in the PO postcode then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 So that don't take into account the fact that he was not actually 'unemployed'? I had the same response from the FA as posted previously, and I have asked them to clarify exactly the point that you have made ie Westwood registered as a player with Lincoln in May 2012, how does that sit with Regulations 41 & 56 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Peter Allen on Radio 5 suggests to Colin Farmery from the Trust that they should liquidate, wipe slate clean and start again. "That is an option" says geezer from the trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 About 7 hours since I first saw this news. I'm still sporting wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Clarification received.. So that don't take into account the fact that he was not actually 'unemployed'? Portsmouth can sign Ashley Westwood on non-contract terms throughout the ‘open window period’. The regulations relating to unemployed players and closed window periods would only apply if they tried to register him in a closed period. The current ‘open window period’ commenced at the start of June and will close on 31st August 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Clarification received.. But it has to be with their consent - hence no Howard or McLeod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Peter Allen on Radio 5 suggests to Colin Farmery from the Trust that they should liquidate, wipe slate clean and start again. "That is an option" says geezer from the trust. I think it's the best way forward for them. Chanrai will rape them on FP rent, so they will just have to move and start from scratch. The big hole in their business plan is getting everyone to pay their pledges. It ain't gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Clarification received.. Still take some issue with the term unemployed as most people would take it to refer to someones overall employment position not a specific career. If I called David Cameron an unemployed director I would get funny looks so I can't see how a coach working fulltime fits with the term unemployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The big hole in their business plan is getting everyone to pay their pledges. It ain't gonna happen.# Which has got to be a massive incentive to go or the phoenix club and Moneyfields option. Plus it makes Chinny wait even longer to get any money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I think it's the best way forward for them. Chanrai will rape them on FP rent, so they will just have to move and start from scratch. The big hole in their business plan is getting everyone to pay their pledges. It ain't gonna happen. And all the parachute payments are already gone now, in compromises to get players to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Chuckle Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I was thinking the same about the £1000 pledges. Easy to say your donate. It's now getting everyone to cough up! Never going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I think it's the best way forward for them. Chanrai will rape them on FP rent, so they will just have to move and start from scratch. The big hole in their business plan is getting everyone to pay their pledges. It ain't gonna happen. The trouble is, I'm sure the Trust still see it as a fallback option rather than the first-choice option. Clinging onto the old carcass won't solve any problems in the long run. The clever move for the Trust now would be to advise Birch to put the old club to sleep and start a new one but the fans have never seen it that way so I can't see them taking the initiative on this one. But, of course, if/when it does happen I'm sure we'll hear someone declare "it's what we really wanted all along"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliemiller Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Too many questions to be able to say. 1) Does the fact that they now only have 18 year olds on the books mean that they are operating at break even? It so then TB could continue to run the club in Admin allowing more time to reach a solution. 2) How much will Chinny actually accept to release his charge on FP? If it is unrealistic TB could apply to court to sell it to somebody else at a realisic (or only slightly inflatated) valuation. This will take time though. 3) Can the trust raise the funds? I doubt it. 4) Might a 3rd party enter negotiations? Probably unlikely unless they are now able to trade at break even. IMO Q1 is the most important. If they are now abel to operate at break even (PP covering deferals) then they have the time to reach a solution. If not liquidation probably becomes the most likely outcome. All speculation obviously. Without knowing details none of us can make a realistic assessment. Only issue with that is they have to prove that they can survive financially for the season to get the share back and take part , they cant at this point so Q1 doesnt come into it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I was thinking the same about the £1000 pledges. Easy to say your donate. It's now getting everyone to cough up! Never going to happen Although it is just possible that with Chanrai off the scene and the way clear for the Trust, more people may be tempted to come on board. And, much though I'm amused at Pompey's current, well-deserved predicament, I am in favour of genuine community ownership of football clubs. Even that one. I think if they were to liquidate and start a new club under fans ownership, I'd have to admire that (but, obviously, they'd have to start in the lower leagues like AFC Wimbledon and FC United). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 (edited) http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19273525 "Mr Chainrai has gone on the record to say he will not allow Portsmouth Football Club to be liquidated so we welcome that at the PST and hopefully we can hold him to his word." Hmmm....When are these people going to realise that it's blindly believing everything they've been told over the last five years that has got them into this mess in the first place...? Edited 15 August, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 15 August, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Don't suppose you've got a book signing in the PO postcode then. In a word No - I only venture in PO territory for the odd fishing expedition and I always wear a mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Loving Meridian Tonight. Fred looks glum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 In a word No - I only venture in PO territory for the odd fishing expedition and I always wear a mask What sort of mask? One to hide your face, or a surgical one to hide the smell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Loving Meridian Tonight. Fred looks glum. On a day when all their dreams came true and Balram Chainrai walked away, surely not.... I bet he's at the front of the queue to waste a grand or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I think it's the best way forward for them. Chanrai will rape them on FP rent, so they will just have to move and start from scratch. The big hole in their business plan is getting everyone to pay their pledges. It ain't gonna happen. I'd say it was getting the 'ex' players, to wipe out yet more of their money owed to them. Should they achieve this miracle, then they have to justify to the FL why they done that, then signed new players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 I'd say it was getting the 'ex' players, to wipe out yet more of their money owed to them. So, does that mean the players who have left as heros are now temporarily villains again? Shouldn't a certain local journalist be out there hounding and intimidating them again by now? Time is afterall very short... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 On a day when all their dreams came true and Balram Chainrai walked away, surely not.... I bet he's at the front of the queue to waste a grand or two. I doubt it, Fred is as tight as two coats of paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 But they can only sign players with the express permission of the FL, regardless of the players' status - which presumably they gave in these cases and not in the case of the other triallists. As there's nothing about the detail of the embargo in the rules (that I'm aware of), I can't confirm or deny that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trust were always only going to pay football creditors £2m so there is no hole in the financial estimates - its in the business plan. Either the players etc re-negotiate their pay offs or it's liquidation and who knows what they get. It's upto Birch to sort that out. No point taking over the club only to find you cannot fund it. Um, doesn't that assume that the players who've left haven't already been paid off from the PPs that arrived last weekend ? Cos if it was me in that position I'd probably walk for all the money I was owed and a bit on top, if I happened to know that the club was getting a large chunk of cash that week. And hasn't Chanrai ALREADY said all the PP money has gone, including the next payment, never mind the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Here we go again... @pn_neil_allen: RT @joemichalczuk: Any I urge every Pompey fan who can afford it does the same - there is no other option for the survival of PFC ...the Pompey public bring asked to poor good money after bad. In fact, they'd be paying twice given that the council has already committed their council tax. Just do the intellectual thing and start over again. You can then plough the "millions" that you've raised into yielding the club up from the roots rather than chasing after yet more debt. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 Still take some issue with the term unemployed as most people would take it to refer to someones overall employment position not a specific career. If I called David Cameron an unemployed director I would get funny looks so I can't see how a coach working fulltime fits with the term unemployed. You can take all the issue you like, the term is explicitly stated with its meaning defined in the FL rules that were linked by Torres earlier. He is an unemployed player, whether he's employed as a coach is irrelevant. The Westwood thing also supports the rule that they can sign any non-contract players in the Window which I flagged up earlier - the elephant in the room being the assumption that the FL must have assented to the signings OR that both those types of signing are exempt from the embargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 15 August, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2012 (edited) What sort of mask? One to hide your face, or a surgical one to hide the smell? Both good reasons to wear a mask in a city that has no shame or class - today Mr FM has been another cracking day in the history of this forum, and to think when you passed the original info over to me 3 years ago it would lead to a cottage industry which includes71662 responses. Edited 15 August, 2012 by Fitzhugh Fella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 But it has to be with their consent - hence no Howard or McLeod. Or with the agreement of the players to actually sign and get paid a pittance compared to what they were enticed with, which could also explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 15 August, 2012 Share Posted 15 August, 2012 The trouble is, I'm sure the Trust still see it as a fallback option rather than the first-choice option. Clinging onto the old carcass won't solve any problems in the long run. The clever move for the Trust now would be to advise Birch to put the old club to sleep and start a new one but the fans have never seen it that way so I can't see them taking the initiative on this one. But, of course, if/when it does happen I'm sure we'll hear someone declare "it's what we really wanted all along"... Already got one of them on Pat from Poole's Facebook wall, twinned with the phrase "enjoy getting thrashed every week in the PL". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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