GenevaSaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Giving the money to Pompey is not really changing the events on the pitch but also can be dressed up as keeping the leagues integrity. I thought the same thing Nick, but it could potentially change events on the pitch. If they don't get this cash they might need to send some of their loan players back. Therefore there is potential to change outcomes on the pitch. Stinks to high heaven. Mind you, if all 20 teams need to agree to it, it's a non runner in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 stand back and look at it from the PL's side. They are desperate for a PL side not to go into admin.. You see, I don't buy this... a couple of years ago yes, that may have been the case.. but after the Tevez affair and more imortantly, the worlds financial problems over the past 2-3 years I don't think a Premiership club going into Administration is really that big a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 stand back and look at it from the PL's side. They are desperate for a PL side not to go into admin. I was chatting about this in the pub last night. A interesting opposing view was raised that the PL DO want a club to go into Admin, a small PL club but still "established" to prove that they will let it happen and serve as a warned to the likes of Liverpool and Man Utd. The guy who raised it was a Hammers fans and had the same thoughts when they looked ****ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 If Scudamore is canvassing the opinion of the other 19 clubs, I would imagine they will agree to the proposal as if Pompey go out of business it will seriously affect the current league table after the expunging of results. Absolutely criminal if they get out of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 It sounds like, but not completely sure, that if they can pay all their outstanding tax to HMRC that they may not then have to provide the document to the court. Exactly, Solent put it across that any release of monies would be immediate - therefore allowing them to settle before the case is heard. The whole thing fookin stinks - they've been allowed to increase their wage bill by bringing in more and more loanees, free agents etc... When you look at how the FA have allowed Bournemouth to be treated and yet those fookers continue insolvently, is frankly, criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 You see, I don't buy this... a couple of years ago yes, that may have been the case.. but after the Tevez affair and more imortantly, the worlds financial problems over the past 2-3 years I don't think a Premiership club going into Administration is really that big a problem... The PL branding will be effected big time if 1 of their clubs is unable to fulfill the fixtures, and the league having to take points away from some teams. Liverpool will be the only power team who would be happy for that to happen and so they will vote in favour.It will make a mockery. I think the PL thought that the judge would order a 28day reprieve and so give them more time to find a backer. It was a close run thing and the PL will now be busting a gut trying to find a way out for them. The world wide issue is at stake, they are not worried about the home market as we are no longer the real target audience IMO. I was wrong it sems that the judge appointed the accountants, if Pompey have i doubt they would chose people who were not a little understanding. I do not know how Vantis are rated and without doubt well above board, but it does concern me that if they had been at the club for a month and not seen what seems quite obvious , it is a bit worrying. Of course they may not have seen any of the accounts and so unable to draw any quick asessment re trading while insolvent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burger Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 my view is that PL have known for while that PFC are trading while insolvent (and documents produced by PFC for PL prove this). Only way to cover this up is to help PFC pay off HMRC and the winding up order is dropped. Question: without a winding up order, if a company is trading while insolvent, how would this be raised and who would investigate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 If Scudamore is canvassing the opinion of the other 19 clubs, I would imagine they will agree to the proposal as if Pompey go out of business it will seriously affect the current league table after the expunging of results. Absolutely criminal if they get out of this... Stoke might not. Pulis was on Solent this morning laying into people running Pompey - pointedly towards Storrie...he basically said they should be held accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 my view is that PL have known for while that PFC are trading while insolvent (and documents produced by PFC for PL prove this). Only way to cover this up is to help PFC pay off HMRC and the winding up order is dropped. Question: without a winding up order, if a company is trading while insolvent, how would this be raised and who would investigate? i assume the Fraud squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 It sounds like, but not completely sure, that if they can pay all their outstanding tax to HMRC that they may not then have to provide the document to the court. It's gone too far for that. The Judge has ordered a financial statement to be produced and produced it must be. She wants evidence that they are not trading whilst insolvent (which they are) and they are able to meet their future liabilities when they fall due (which they can't). So, Storrieteller and his team of accountants, auditors and shysters need to create the greatest work of fiction since the sad demise of JRR Tolkien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Exactly, Solent put it across that any release of monies would be immediate - therefore allowing them to settle before the case is heard. The whole thing fookin stinks - they've been allowed to increase their wage bill by bringing in more and more loanees, free agents etc... When you look at how the FA have allowed Bournemouth to be treated and yet those fookers continue insolvently, is frankly, criminal. Surely there must be enough evidence out there now to indicate that they have acted illegally by trading whilst insolvent? In that case why are not the relevant authorities/agencies investigating them? One would hope that they are aware of the situation and would go in to investigate if they manage to avoid going back to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Team hmrc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 It's gone too far for that. The Judge has ordered a financial statement to be produced and produced it must be. She wants evidence that they are not trading whilst insolvent (which they are) and they are able to meet their future liabilities when they fall due (which they can't). So, Storrieteller and his team of accountants, auditors and shysters need to create the greatest work of fiction since the sad demise of JRR Tolkien. I don't know? Others on here have implied that if pompey pay HMRC and get them to withdraw the WUO that the document would not be needed as the case would be withdrawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 By the way, has anyoe spoken to Saints and asked that they play Taxman by The Beatles before the game on Saturday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 By the way, has anyoe spoken to Saints and asked that they play Taxman by The Beatles before the game on Saturday? Done. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 I don't know? Others on here have implied that if pompey pay HMRC and get them to withdraw the WUO that the document would not be needed as the case would be withdrawn. There are other creditors on the second application who will need to be satisfied as well. The ten on the first application have allegedly been paid, but the others have not. HMRC added the second claim of £4.7m to the second application by the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 By the way, has anyoe spoken to Saints and asked that they play Taxman by The Beatles before the game on Saturday? Given what any new investor would get for their investment I should thing "Money for Nothing" by dire straits might be more appropriate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 By the way, has anyoe spoken to Saints and asked that they play Taxman by The Beatles before the game on Saturday? surely Sunny Afternon by the Kinks. 'The taxman's taken all my dough etc etc' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 I am not sure the Premier League has thought this through (big surprise). Apart from the problem of getting all the teams including relegation rivals to agree, this is the worst case of (for the economists) moral hazard imaginable. Now any team that finds itself in trouble could still go on a spending splurge and then ask the premier league to bail it out using the Portsmouth precedent. The only possible way this could be justified is to couple the money with a points penalty. But I would say -9 is not enough to act as a deterrent. It would have to be -25 to stop clubs taking the gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 There are other creditors on the second application who will need to be satisfied as well. The ten on the first application have allegedly been paid, but the others have not. HMRC added the second claim of £4.7m to the second application by the others. Does anyone know what the total is for the second application? If most of them besides the tax man are relatively small sums then they could still clear the lot. Also can anyone add their names to the list now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 There is no way that teams down near the bottom are going to vote yes and risk the skates surviving and them going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 They just keep prolonging the inventible don't they? Ok - so they take £11m now...great, that may get them through for now...but then they get relegated, and they get no parachute payments (or not as much) - what then? Short-term fixes galore - although I guess it'll be much more fun to see them crash and burn in the FL. there's no one to help you out down there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Codger Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 But since the Court commanded PFC to deliver an SoA by Wednesday 17th then things must have moved on from a Winding Up Order? Even if PFC could pay HMRC all it requires and more and even if HMRC withdraw the WUO - it is the Court who want to see the SoA. The matter now isn't one of PFC paying HMRC it is whether PFC are/have been trading whilst insolvent. On Wednesday The Guardian reported Register Dennet as saying ... "I am very concerned about the financial status of this company. It seems to me there's a very real risk that this company is undoubtedly trading while it is insolvent." http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/10/portsmouth-hmrc-high-court-ruling Sadly, I have no clue as to the powers of the Court but presumably they want to see the SoA and, if necessary, hand it over to the relevant group (Crown Prosecutors? Fraud Squad? Something similar?) for any action that might be required. So the question for any lawyers out there is ... is the SoA part of the WUO or is it something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 There is no way that teams down near the bottom are going to vote yes and risk the skates surviving and them going down. Bolton have gained point against them. Wolves Sunderland (2 draws only) Burnley Liverpool and another have lost to them, so all other clubs have a vested interest in keeping the points they have taken from them. The report of their demise may well be premature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 They just keep prolonging the inventible don't they? Ok - so they take £11m now...great, that may get them through for now...but then they get relegated, and they get no parachute payments (or not as much) - what then? Short-term fixes galore - although I guess it'll be much more fun to see them crash and burn in the FL. there's no one to help you out down there... PL won't care then once their out of the PL. It's better to give them the money now rather than imagine the fallout of changing results because their wound up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 (edited) Has anyone thought that if Saints had been able to spend £11M that was owed to the taxman, during our last season in the Premiership, on players and then when we were forced to pay it back, simply asked for a sub on the next Sky payment from the EPL, we may have stayed up? I guess no one at Saints imagined that's how it worked... If Pompey get their next payment in advance, I will be happy if we never join the Premier League again. How the f*** is it ever going to be considered a fair competition again? Screw them and the pigs at the trough that run their league. I'm happy where we are.... Edited 12 February, 2010 by Guided Missile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 the Prem's lawyers will be going barmy - the league complicit in shoring up a company that they knew was trading while insolvent? The court has suggested that, and the Prem had their own copy of the accounts so there will be no defence. Also it only needs a couple of the relegation rivals to say, 'okay you do that but if they finish above us we will sue' - a nervous few months for Scudamore and the worms could be all over the show. Pompey were quiet about the £2M advance - is that because one of their creditors was expecting it when it appeared later? BUT if they get £11M the taxman will want the lot - if Chanrai or Gaydamak don't have it away, and what's stopping that happening? If I was owed their amounts and the Prem was stupid enough to cough up a load thinking it was going to clear tax.... So if the league pay the tax direct the judge will then ask for proof of funding for the rest of the season - and the problem remains. They are fatally wounded, someone just offered them a plaster. Nice touch with the 6R4! - at least you now know my user name is not about extremism and steam events. If a Metro has room in the boot for shopping, you have the wrong model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 i am no expert on these matters but let's just say the PL do give Pompey a load of money. Would this be a loan or a donation? Surely yet another loan would give HMRC more ammunition as Pompey's outgoings are vastly above their income? Even if it's a donation to pay for the HMRC tax bill or even a donation of tens of millions to wipe all their debts, how the hell would they still prove that they weren't going to run up large debts straight away with their vast outgoings? Wasn't this last bit one thing they had to prove when they meet the judge again next week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 So the message to anyone who wants to spend money they don't have, and then spend some more, just keep spending, then when it all goes pop the PL will come and save the day. Are their fans, as some were encouraging, still going to invade the pitch on Saturday, wonder how the authorities will deal with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Bolton have gained point against them. Wolves Sunderland (2 draws only) Burnley Liverpool and another have lost to them, so all other clubs have a vested interest in keeping the points they have taken from them. The report of their demise may well be premature. Yeah, turkeys vote for Xmas don't they. Arsenal would veto it in a heartbeat as they'd have plenty to lose as would Man City. It's never going to happen and too many people are fretting about nowt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Saturday Boy Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Mark Fry looking for business? http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5943068,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1576 Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Has anyone thought that if Saints had been able to spend £11M that was owed to the taxman, during our last season in the Premiership, on players and then when we were forced to pay it back, simply asked for a sub on the next Sky payment from the EPL, we may have stayed up? I guess no one at Saints imagined that's how it worked... If Pompey get their next payment in advance, I will be happy if we never join the Premier League again. How the f*** is it ever going to be considered a fair competition again? Screw them and the pigs at the trough that run their league. I'm happy where we are.... Christ on a bike! For the first time in my life Gm, I agree 100% with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Havng re read a lot of the posts on here it doesn't sound like the PL are doing this for the good of the club or even the 'reputation of the league' but to protect their own arses as it will almost certainly come to light that they are guilty of ignoring the fact they knowingly allowed them to operate whilst insolvent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Mark Fry looking for business? http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5943068,00.html oh I do like that pic of Notarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carljack Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Seems strange how people moralise about a man having sex with a woman. But think its OK to have Sex with a Fish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 They just keep prolonging the inventible don't they? Ok - so they take £11m now...great, that may get them through for now...but then they get relegated, and they get no parachute payments (or not as much) - what then? Short-term fixes galore - although I guess it'll be much more fun to see them crash and burn in the FL. there's no one to help you out down there... As far as the PL are concerned they will cease to exist after the last game of the season, so short term face-saving is all they care about. (Though imagine the stink if they were to win the cup.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 oh I do like that pic of Notarf It does appear to be being used a lot at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carljack Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 That's so graphic it terrifies me! 'Heeere's Johhny!' LOL! Brilliant ESB SAINT TILL I DIE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chin Strain Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 It's an unbelievable story that they would ask for this. They're effectively being rewarded for not trying to sell everything that wasn't nailed down in the January window. Maybe if they had approached the PL or FIFA and asked if they could turn a blind eye to Boateng having played 5 minutes for Spuds in August, thereby allowing him to be sold, then you could understand that they had done all they can. If they were playing their youth team (like we did) in order to try and stave off relegation, then there may be some sympathy. Instead, the likes of Boateng, Belhadj and any other player who may be worth something (even a £100k) have been retained, and are continuing to play for Pompey. Effectively, they're cheating by retaining these players, and could well cheat us out of a place in the 1/4 finals of the cup. OK, we don't need the cash, but if we did, how ****ed off would the club be? I'm hopeful that all the clubs will tell them to fook off - like someone said, there will be clubs like Liverpool who will gain from them going under, and they're not about to kiss goodbye to a CL place to help out Pompey. Also, WHU would lose 4 points, and that wouldn't exactly help them, especially considering Wolves wouldn't lose any. On the basis that they need all the clubs to agree, it's just not going to happen. I think the PL should insist that they return all loan players to their parent clubs now, and stop signing anyone else (they shoul;d never have been allowed to do that anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 I know people moan about Mawhinney, but at least he exercises the rules. Don't you just wish he was in charge of the Premier League now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Yeah, turkeys vote for Xmas don't they. Arsenal would veto it in a heartbeat as they'd have plenty to lose as would Man City. It's never going to happen and too many people are fretting about nowt. ASrsenal have more to lose if Pompey are folded in respect of points and so league position. They would imediately have 6 points less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 I think reps from the other 72 LEAGUE clubs need to ask the FA to step in if this is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkeith Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Can they add 'Pay your Rates' by the Fall to the playlist please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Sorry to be dim - have had a good look around and can't see any official source about the parachute payments - where is this all coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Sorry to be dim - have had a good look around and can't see any official source about the parachute payments - where is this all coming from? Pompey, in all likelihood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popyto Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Ah its good to see the PL look after its own, especially when there are far more deserving clubs throughout the country perilously close to going under. I think the PL will come out of this looking like a rich boys club unless the monies come with a huge points penalty, 'dont wory lads doesn't matter how badly run you are, trading illegally no worries just take this wad of cash and you're problems are over.' What about the other clubs rumoured to be close to admin this season? will they get the same courtesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 (edited) Sorry to be dim - have had a good look around and can't see any official source about the parachute payments - where is this all coming from? Storrie (see what I did there? ;-)) - broke on ESPN online yesterday, then the Mail picked it up. Solent covered it in their reports this morning, saying that Scudamore's going to call all Prem clubs this weekend in an attempt to gain approval. Not our Scudamore though...;-) Actually...how about SWF's Scudamore rings round the teams before the real one? Edited 12 February, 2010 by Channon's Sideburns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie66 Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 So the message to anyone who wants to spend money they don't have, and then spend some more, just keep spending, then when it all goes pop the PL will come and save the day. Are their fans, as some were encouraging, still going to invade the pitch on Saturday, wonder how the authorities will deal with that? Just like our government did with the banks !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chin Strain Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Just like our government did with the banks !! Fortunately the economy doesn't rely on the state of Pompey's financial health! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 12 February, 2010 Share Posted 12 February, 2010 Storrie (see what I did there? ;-)) - broke on ESPN online yesterday, then the Mail picked it up. Solent covered it in their reports this morning, saying that Scudamore's going to call all Prem clubs this weekend in an attempt to gain approval. Not our Scudamore though...;-) Actually...how about SWF's Scudamore rings round the teams before the real one? Ah ok, so there may actually be nothing in this at all then - is this Storrie saying that Scudamore has agreed this or do we have a direct quote from him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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