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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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Goalie66

Goalie66

Posted
Posted

taken from the Pompey message board.. Now then is an interesting thought ?

 

re: re: re: Pompey vs Scum Predictions ...

Posts: 763

Hall of Fame

 

2 - 2 and we win the replay 2 - 0 assuming we're still here!

 

What would happen if we win and draw Cardiff in the next round and both of us go tits up beforehand?

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Torrent Of Abuse

Torrent Of Abuse

Posted
Posted (edited)
Seems strange to me that a married man with a wife thinks paying for sex is strange:)

 

True. But this has taken rather a Pompey slant:

You've got an "arrangement" to give it regularly to one person but you choose to withhold it from them for a couple of months whilst bringing in someone new and giving it all to them instead.

Edited by Torrent Of Abuse
Remove extra quote. Correct a bit of grammar...
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CHAPEL END CHARLIE

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Posted
Posted

This possibility of PFC receiving next seasons 'Parachute Payment' prematurely is a interesting question for the Premier League . If unanimous agreement from all 20 EPL club chairmen is required then I can't see it happening as some clubs (Liverpool for instance) could gain an significant advantage by vetoing this proposal .

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/11/portsmouth-avram-grant-fa-tax

 

You can more or less guarantee club Chairmen will put the interests of their own club first - there's so much money involved they can hardly do anything else .

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Gemmel

Gemmel

Posted
Posted

All the papers are running with the story that the Prem will bail them out by advancing the minimum payment they would receive in August, a quite handy figure of 11m. (After already bringing forward a payment of 2million for all clubs, just to help pompey out)

 

So it looks like they have their escape route. They better serioulsy hope that pompey get relegated otherwise the West Ham debarcle is going to look like a walk in the park.

 

It would need the likes of Clapham Saint to confirm, but if the PL stump up the money and pompey pay HMRC, what happens if Vantis come back and say the club is trading insolvently.

 

I think we have about 8 days of this thread left, i'm now pretty sure they will be ok in terms of staying in business, but who knows

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Goalie66

Goalie66

Posted
Posted

Surely the EPL will look mighty stupid if PCFC are found out to have been trading while insolvent. I suspect that like all these mystery investors they will wait until after the report is submitted to the courts to verify their guilt one way or the other.

 

Even then , if they do forward that payment, other teams in the relegation zone would have a very strong argument for suing the EPL , if for instance, they weren subsequently relegated. As we all know it is against the FA rules for a club to play while insolvent.

 

If Saints loose on Saturday, IMO they would have a very good case to the FA that PCFC are in breach of FA Cup rules for the same reason.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted

Re the EPL advancing money;

 

From the Daily Mail article, the EPL say that what is being proposed in an advance of what they would normally have expected to receive in August - so it is either (1) the first installament of next season's TV money ( in the unlikely event they stay up ), or (2) the first year's parachute payment ( when they go down ). It should not alter the court's view of whether they are trading insolvently, as that will surely be based on their cashflow between September and today. ( As mister Micawber put it "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." ).

 

It would also mean that, in the unlikely event they survive, they start next season in the CCC without the cushion of the parachute payment.

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teamsaint

teamsaint

Posted
Posted

I would have said that the PL have taken leave of their senses- but that assumes that they had any in the first place.

 

WHY do poopey need to be saved? There are plenty of precedents for clubs going to the wall mid season. Perhaps if it happens to a PL club it might make some of the idiots who run some of the clubs think before they give squad players £80k a week.

 

If they do bail them out,I hope the other clubs adversely affected sue them into the middle of next year.

 

 

Whats more there are any number of implications, not least for the skates. If they get the £11 m, what on earth are they going to do for money next season, especially if they are relegated. More short term loans? If they are insolvent now, bringing forward a payment that is already in their cash flow projections won't save them for more than 6 months, it just keeps them trading- for now.

 

 

FWIW, i reckon chances of the other PL chairman going for this must be pretty small.

 

It really sends out a great signal to all the well run clubs, too. Why bother, get to the PL, and you can get away with anything- anything to save the brand.

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EastleighSoulBoy

EastleighSoulBoy

Posted
Posted
Re the EPL advancing money;

 

. . .

 

It would also mean that, in the unlikely event they survive, they start next season in the CCC without the cushion of the parachute payment.

 

Which would mean that in January 2011, having already set the precedent (and L1 bound), they could prevail on the PL for the second parachute payment in advance.

 

Meh, I think the jugular should be prepared for surgery now.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, the big question....are the EPL just trying to protect their 'brand' (which somewhat ironically will be tainted anyway if they start paying teams their relegation 'bonus' before they're relegated!) or do they have something far more damaging to hide?

 

Who knows...just speculation on my part.

 

Btw, if they pay out the parachute payment to Pompey, how will they decide which other two teams to give it to at the same time (something they'd have to do to make it 'fair', surely?). Some sort of glorified pools panel that decides who's most likely to be relegated?

Edited by trousers
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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted (edited)

Why is it the papers think that if they get this 11M they will survive till the end of the season? That will just clear their tax bill. They still have no money left to last them till the end of the season to pay all their other bills, including salaries (and the PAYE on salaries) for the next couple of months?

 

As said above if this needs the approval of the other clubs its going to be tight call. On one hand some clubs will be better off if pompey go bust but on the other they are aware of the effect it would have on the 'brand' and that effect on future income.

 

Finally can I get this right? The statement being prepared will not take any of this extra money (or any money coming in from other 'investors') into account so is 99% certain will show they are trading while insolvent. As such their only escape route is to buy off HMRC to stop the WUO and hope no agency whose job it is to investigate companies that trade while insolvent comes sniffing around?

Edited by pedg
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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted

The logic behind this whole paying the parachute/end of season money in advance is simply wrong.

 

The main reason that mmoney exists is because clubs falling from the PL have players on long contracts and high salaries and the relegated clubs cannot necessarily offload ALL those players (certainly post Bosman) without paying their remaning salary to cancel the contract.

 

So the PL pay the cash NOW but would HAVE to deduct points somehow to preserve their legal positon, I simply cannot see the likes of Hull (who have BIG money troubles) West Ham & Burnley voting for this when it is they who could be most affected IF the few survive.

 

Put simply IF the PL give them the cash, then what will they use to pay salaries in the CCC with less TV money, about 8,000 ST's and crowds of around 12,000.

 

It simply does not make any sense.

 

So therefore it MUST be an idea that has leaked into the press from.....

 

Storrie teller

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
So, the big question....are the EPL just trying to protect their 'brand' (which somewhat ironically will be tainted anyway if they start paying teams their relegation 'bonus' before they're relegated!) or do they have something far more damaging to hide?

 

Well if we get to the point where the document handed previously to the PL is handed over to HMRC (Why could they have not told them to do that immediately after the hearing anyway?) and it is shown that the PL were deliberately ignoring their own rules on insolvency to try and protect the PL 'brand' then they could be a bot of bother, though wether it would be anything with real consequences I don't know? What would happen if they were found to be helping break their own rules besides embarrassment?

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted (edited)

Certain illogical arguments coming from this as well. From the guardian:

According to the Daily Mail, the league is worried that, if Portsmouth cease trading altogether, they would have to withdraw from the league and their fixtures would become void.

That would
skew the existing league table
.

No it would not 'skew' the existing table it would be a new table that would be entirely consistent with the performances between the clubs in the table who were able to complete their fixtures without being liquidated. As such it would probably be a more valid table that one in which pompey (who could be proven to have been living beyond their means, aka cheating for months) are rescued by dubious means as that would put more of a 'skew' on the table than removing them altogether would IMO.

 

--

 

Also in that guardian article was this which I had not heard elsewhere:

 

Vantis first began work at Fratton Park around a month ago after being appointed by the finance manager Tanya Robins but the company was *summarily *dismissed by Daniel Azougy, the convicted Israeli fraudster who temporarily took charge of financial affairs.

 

So they must be well on their way to having the information the need to create the report which just shows (as if we ever doubted it) that the 28 days requested by pompey so they could produce the report was a complete bluff for time.

Edited by pedg
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Chez

Chez

Posted
Posted

if the EPL pay the money up front and they still go to the wall they will look pretty stupid for spending good money after bad. I'd of thought they would need guarentees themselves that the money would ensure the skates survive.

 

The other issue is that if they do this then they will set a precident and before you know it you will have manure requesting five years of sky money up front.

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saintbletch

saintbletch

Posted
Posted

Surely IF the PL was seriously considering advancing PFC some money, they would have done it way ahead of PFC's toss of a coin gamble in the court the other day.

 

If this needs unanimity amongst Premier League Chairman it won't fly.

 

If the PL takes this decision in isolation then they can expect to be sued by the two/three relegated clubs come the end of season.

 

I can't see it being a flyer.

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Foxstone

Foxstone

Posted
Posted
Surely IF the PL was seriously considering advancing PFC some money, they would have done it way ahead of PFC's toss of a coin gamble in the court the other day.

 

If this needs unanimity amongst Premier League Chairman it won't fly.

 

If the PL takes this decision in isolation then they can expect to be sued by the two/three relegated clubs come the end of season.

 

I can't see it being a flyer.

 

The only way this could fly is if the EPL imposed points deductions on the Skates now - Effectively relegating them now of course but they could still complete their fixtures this season !

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Daren W

Daren W

Posted
Posted

The point here is that a precedent could be set, if they have given a club money in advance...

 

All of a sudden clubs now have grounds for appeals, money in advance and because Pompey are claiming not to be insolvent the Premier League can't really say no to any club asking for money in advance...

 

That also sets up clubs that have been relegated to look at the "Carlos Tevez" scenario. Does the FA's intervention equate to Tevez's goals for West Ham, could the clubs relegated this season sue the Premier League? Could the club's who don't benefit from Pompey's demise sue the league? If Chelsea don't win the league, and if the points they would have got back would have won them the title, would they sue?

 

A whole can of worms could be opened and the whole integrity of the Premier League is at stake.

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
The logic behind this whole paying the parachute/end of season money in advance is simply wrong.

 

The main reason that mmoney exists is because clubs falling from the PL have players on long contracts and high salaries and the relegated clubs cannot necessarily offload ALL those players (certainly post Bosman) without paying their remaning salary to cancel the contract.

 

So the PL pay the cash NOW but would HAVE to deduct points somehow to preserve their legal positon, I simply cannot see the likes of Hull (who have BIG money troubles) West Ham & Burnley voting for this when it is they who could be most affected IF the few survive.

 

Put simply IF the PL give them the cash, then what will they use to pay salaries in the CCC with less TV money, about 8,000 ST's and crowds of around 12,000.

 

It simply does not make any sense.

 

So therefore it MUST be an idea that has leaked into the press from.....

 

Storrie teller

 

I think I remember reading somewhere that the PL would not let one of their clubs go into administration but take control of the club's finances themselves. There would have to be the same sort of points penalty involved though I would imagine.

 

I expect the only reason clubs like Bolton and Hull are not kicking up a fuss at the moment is because pompey are pretty much nailed on for relegation anyway. It's not in any club's interest to have the book thrown at pompey because they will set a precedent, Hull or Bolton could easily be in a similar situation soon so would want as much help as possible.

 

if by some miracle pompey get themselves in a position where it looks like they might stay up I reckon the attitude of the PL will change big time.

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teamsaint

teamsaint

Posted
Posted

AS an aside, in the Martin Samuels Daily Mail piece, he says that the dmise of Aldershot and Maidstone is the reason that there are 92, not 94 teams in the league.

As I recall, there have generally been 92 at the start of the season. The "old" leagues were

Divs 1 and 2 22 clubs.

Divs 3 and 4 24 teams.

 

So is he talking rubbish or am I mistaken?

 

 

No actual quotes from scudamore in that article either.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
I suggest we all buy a EuroMillions ticket.

 

If we win, make a big fuss of buying them, then pull out at the last minute.

 

I really hate Storrie today for even trying that route with the Premier League.

 

Oh it's much easier than that, don't even need to spend the money on the tickets.

 

All you need is a set of bank statements or listing of assets that shows you have access to "wealth". Then you start the process.

 

The wealth doesn't need to be yours, just one of the "partners" in the consortium at the time you start discussions. (ie pop into the boss's office and copy the company bank statements or something)

 

You get all excited, you do your due dilligence (OK so you'd have to hire a decent firm of accountants for that)

 

And then you find your own version of Mickey Fialka to go on SSN to say you are buying the club at 5:30pm the day before the next court hearing.

 

(Oh I didn't make that up, just re-read an old take-over thread)

 

simples, after all, we ARE the world's experts on how to ensure a football club takeover goes to the wire before going t*ts up

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
The point here is that a precedent could be set, if they have given a club money in advance...

 

All of a sudden clubs now have grounds for appeals, money in advance and because Pompey are claiming not to be insolvent the Premier League can't really say no to any club asking for money in advance...

 

That also sets up clubs that have been relegated to look at the "Carlos Tevez" scenario. Does the FA's intervention equate to Tevez's goals for West Ham, could the clubs relegated this season sue the Premier League? Could the club's who don't benefit from Pompey's demise sue the league? If Chelsea don't win the league, and if the points they would have got back would have won them the title, would they sue?

 

A whole can of worms could be opened and the whole integrity of the Premier League is at stake.

 

 

Since when could it have been said that the PL had any integrity?

 

 

:D

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted

A remarkably succinct summary (written by a sentient skate on 606) of why the Skatey-boys continue to resist administration

 

comment by BigBadBlue2 (U14332233)

posted 17 Hours Ago

 

Administration would be a disaster. Firstly the points deduction is initially 9 points, leaving us on 7 points. Additionally if we exit Administration without a CVA(which HMRC always object to) we would get another 15 or 17 points deduction, were we still in business as a football club. By entering Administration, you have to have sufficient cash flow to pay current liabilities as and when they fall due, or the Administrator would have to sell assets accordingly. We have no assets apart from the stadium and land(mortgaged to Chainrai and untouchable) and the players that we can not sell. Gate receipts and merchandising would not be enough to run the club or even pay the wages, so the club would be liquidated almost immediately. It is not a solution and is effectively the same fate as winding up in our case.

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Saint in Paradise

Saint in Paradise

Posted
Posted

In a post about the meeting the pompey supporters had with the PL I thought the PL said they didn't have

their own money but just diverted money paid to them. I would have thought that Sky would not pay any

money to the PL before the due date and certainly not months in advance so where would the PL get this

money to help pompey from ? What happens if all the other clubs decide to ask for their money in advance ?

Would the PL itself then be trading whilst insolvent ?

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted
AS an aside, in the Martin Samuels Daily Mail piece, he says that the dmise of Aldershot and Maidstone is the reason that there are 92, not 94 teams in the league.

As I recall, there have generally been 92 at the start of the season. The "old" leagues were

Divs 1 and 2 22 clubs.

Divs 3 and 4 24 teams.

 

So is he talking rubbish or am I mistaken?

 

 

No actual quotes from scudamore in that article either.

 

Never trust the Daily Mail, that's what I always say. You are absolutely right - all that changed is it is now 1 X 20 & 3 x 24, rather than 2 X 22 & 2 X 24

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
In a post about the meeting the pompey supporters had with the PL I thought the PL said they didn't have

their own money but just diverted money paid to them. I would have thought that Sky would not pay any

money to the PL before the due date and certainly not months in advance so where would the PL get this

money to help pompey from ?

 

I thought it was said that generally they don't hold the money but the one exception was building up the pot for the parachute payments? Could be wrong (as ever) though.

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted

stand back and look at it from the PL's side. They are desperate for a PL side not to go into admin.

They in my mind will do as much as possible to help that from happening.

Giving the money to Pompey is not really changing the events on the pitch but also can be dressed up as keeping the leagues integrity.

Forget not Dave Richards Chairman of the PL introduced Al fahim to the club, we dont know what other cosy agreements they have with Storrie.

It is dirty politics and I still think Pompey will escape, so close to true justice the other day but now out of its clutches. if Vantis have already been working on Pompeys books for weeks then that also worries me. Id have thought they would have been honour bound to put them into admin as soon as they had seen them trading while insolvent.

I dont feel happy with what is reported on here this morning.

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
if Vantis have already been working on Pompeys books for weeks then that also worries me. Id have thought they would have been honour bound to put them into admin as soon as they had seen them trading while insolvent.

 

The thing is the article does not actually say how long they had to look at the books. You could image they were called in by whothername and as soon as the fraudster found out he sent them packing so they may not have had much time at all to examine them.

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
Is 11 million enough though?

 

The court want reasurance not only of settling the oustanding HMRC bill but of future liquidity as well - doesn't really sound like enough to me by a looong way

 

It sounds like, but not completely sure, that if they can pay all their outstanding tax to HMRC that they may not then have to provide the document to the court.

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