Extending St Mary's

[Tamesaint]

Twice in the last week Marcus Lebherr has seen sell outs at St Mary's. There have been 3 sellouts since Christmas. Do you think he may be tempted to extend St Mary's? If not now, then when??

 

I remember being told on a tour of St Mary's that it would be possible to extend it by removing the roof on 3 of the stands and then building an extra tier. The only area where that would not be possible was the Itchen stand. The capacity could be brought up to a figure nearer (I think) 50,000.

 

Cost would obviously be an issue. In addition there could be a problem with the infrastructure. How could we get 50,000 people into that area of Southampton on a regular basis? Marcus could hopefully however see this as a worthwhile investment and be prepared to pay for this extension - whilst I am sure that making better use of the railway line next to the ground could help in the moving of supporters to and from the grround on matchdays.

 

This time last year, when we were struggling to fill half the current ground, we were light years away from asking this question .If the team starts to rise through the leagues and we have more and more sell outs however, I would like to think that extending the ground would appear as an issue on Marcus's radar.

[SET]

Still years away from worrying about that.

[Tractor_Saint]

He'll only consider extending once we get 30k games each and every time. Recently the good run of results (flame me) have meant we've had the last two games near capacity. However, the others have been 20k+ and no where near sell out.

 

The usual big games attract 26k or so gates. If we had a 45k stadium now, we'd still get 26k gates. A great position for a league one club to be in but I'd think Marcus would consider an increase in capacity once we made it to the premier league.

[niceandfriendly]

Still years away from worrying about that.

 

I agree, but it's great that someone has even thought to post about it. Shows we're on the way up, even if we're not there yet.

[Matthew Le God]

As planning could take along time to go through might be worth looking into it now. I reckon they probably have been considering what to do on this front already. The new training facilities are aimed for a Premiership team so they are planning ahead.

 

Every Premiership season at St Mary's from 2001 to 2005 averaged over 30k.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Still years away from worrying about that.

 

Agreed, they would be better off in investing more money in the team and once we are established as a 'Premiership club' and not one of the yo-yo clubs then they could consider it but my guess is that by then the decision will be that of another owner(s) / bank.

[John Boy Saint]

How could we get 50,000 people into that area of Southampton on a regular basis? Marcus could hopefully however see this as a worthwhile investment and be prepared to pay for this extension - whilst I am sure that making better use of the railway line next to the ground could help in the moving of supporters to and from the grround on matchdays.

 

When St Marys was built this was muted, it was reported that it would cost £5m alone to electrify the line back then.

[Tamesaint]

When St Marys was built this was muted, it was reported that it would cost £5m alone to electrify the line back then.

 

Would we be expected to pay for that - or could it be done in conjuction with the train operator?

 

I would have thought that building a station would be more of a problem .... but where my parents live a station has recently been built fairly easily.

[S-Clarke]

we have to build a team first that could sustain 30k + crowds - and we haven't got that yet - ok, the odd 2/3 games a season...but we're not going to get that every week until we're back in the top flight, sad to say.

 

When we're back in the CCC and competing in the top half, it may be worth having a look at how it can be done.

[Colinjb]

After a 5 year spell of Premiership consolidation and 30k + attendance average this could be considered.

[Third Division South Days]

Twice in the last week Marcus Lebherr has seen sell outs at St Mary's. There have been 3 sellouts since Christmas. Do you think he may be tempted to extend St Mary's? If not now, then when??

 

I remember being told on a tour of St Mary's that it would be possible to extend it by removing the roof on 3 of the stands and then building an extra tier. The only area where that would not be possible was the Itchen stand. The capacity could be brought up to a figure nearer (I think) 50,000.

 

Cost would obviously be an issue. In addition there could be a problem with the infrastructure. How could we get 50,000 people into that area of Southampton on a regular basis? Marcus could hopefully however see this as a worthwhile investment and be prepared to pay for this extension - whilst I am sure that making better use of the railway line next to the ground could help in the moving of supporters to and from the grround on matchdays.

 

This time last year, when we were struggling to fill half the current ground, we were light years away from asking this question .If the team starts to rise through the leagues and we have more and more sell outs however, I would like to think that extending the ground would appear as an issue on Marcus's radar.

 

Another footbridge across the railway at the chapel end would ease congestion on the existing bridge and may well be cost effective

[st alex]

When St Marys was built this was muted, it was reported that it would cost £5m alone to electrify the line back then.

 

The new Aviva Stadium, (Lansdown Road), Dublin which is nearly finished and looks great looks like it has a station integreated into it in a way which could be done to St Mary's, although granted, it's not on the main line so I'm not sure where the trains would come from? I do remember reading on some dusty old website which catalogued old train stations that there did used to be a station at Northam in the old days.

[st alex]

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/n/northam/index.shtml

[Colinjb]

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/n/northam/index.shtml

 

According to that map, that is literally where the Stadium now is!!!

[RedAndWhite91]

I agree that it would be only good to expand when we are firmly a Premier League team again. It would cost roughly the same amount to expand the capacity to around 50,000 as it did to build the ground in the first place.

[Torbay Saint]

Would we be expected to pay for that - or could it be done in conjuction with the train operator?

 

I would have thought that building a station would be more of a problem .... but where my parents live a station has recently been built fairly easily.

 

If it was proven that the existing highway network could not sustain the increase in attendees then the Club would have to mitigate that impact. The Club will probably already have to have some sort of sustainable transport plan.

 

I am currently working on a scheme involving the development of a turn back facility at an existing railway station and the developer has to pay. I would imagine the development of a station would necessitate development on third party land and therefore would be a very expensive solution.

 

Although I am not a highways consultant, I would think that the Club will look at other methods before developing the existing rail network.

[Dr Who?]

Sell out week in week out, and he migjht think about it. This will not happen unless we are flying high in the Championship!

[SFC Forever]

When we reach the stage where we are filling the ground again at every game we could have two choices. Pompey will be history and something tells me that the strays from outside of Southampton could be tempted to go to more of our games if we were based outside of the city. It would be much easier to plan from the ground than from a ready made stadium. IMO

 

It may take longer but surely would be worth the while having a bigger stadium with easier access.

[Neil]

It would cost roughly the same amount to expand the capacity to around 50,000 as it did to build the ground in the first place.

 

The difference now being that we have someone that may be able to pay off the whole lot in one chunk, and not even notice the missing change from his pockets...

[South City Si]

With regards to having a station, to go along with the increased capacity, I think it could work if they do build that 'snow dome' they want to build in Chapel/Northam area.

Also, if they do want to build the tram thing through town, anbd extended line to SMS via the station could work.

[ottery st mary]

Personally I do not believe Plymouth will get anywhere building their stadium up to 40,000 for possible world cup venue..

 

Therefore IF Saints built their stadium up we would be in a position to show those organisers we are ready....

 

Would it be cost effective for our own games let alone as a long shot for World Cup..probably not yet....

 

If we built it to take the PISH out of Pompey....... I would laugh my proverbial little thing offf....Would we?

[Saint Keith]

Agreed, they would be better off in investing more money in the team and once we are established as a 'Premiership club' and not one of the yo-yo clubs then they could consider it.

 

for the first time ever, i agree with 19c

[Mase]

I think once we reach the Premier League then this should be on the agenda because we will definitely sell out week in, week out. That said they should start getting plans and designs and whatnot ready now I reckon.

[John Boy Saint]

Would we be expected to pay for that - or could it be done in conjuction with the train operator?

 

I would have thought that building a station would be more of a problem .... but where my parents live a station has recently been built fairly easily.

 

Electrification of the railway is just up the line under the Northam Road footbridge, but as the line is used to service the docks with the occaisional load which is moved traditionally by Diesel locomotives (or the odd romantic Steam Engine pulling Pullman carriages to the liners) it has no commercial advantage to be electrified for use every 2 weeks or so.

 

We might just see it happen in our lifetime, it would have been ideal for the P*mpey game.

[stug76]

If it costs £25 million to build, then that's and extra 1 million tickets at £25 that need to be sold to justify it. If we average an extra 5k of fans per match as a result of the increase in capacity that would be 200 matches or just under 10 years.

mode>

So the question is, under the current regime, what are the expectations? If we are a top half Prem side, it's probably going to pay for itself. I could see us averaging 35k -40k. Anything less than that, probably not.

 

Is 10 years a reasonable payback? It's an awful long time in football. Could it be seen as a servicable debt?????

 

Personally, I think there is a case for doing it, and it's best done now rather than later, I'd rather be ready for the premier league than get there and then do it.

[St_Tel49]

When St Marys was built this was muted, it was reported that it would cost £5m alone to electrify the line back then.

 

But the line IS electrified! I thought that there was a dispute between the club and network rail as to who should pay for the station. Network rail said that they wouldn't do it for the sake of 20 uses a year.

[John McAndrew]

well trains now run along that line back and forth to the repair/cleaning place next to northam bridge...you can see the trains parked up not far from the college in chapel road so it must have been electricfied already so that would mean just the cost of building some kind of station....how much money and time would that have saved yesterday...shutting off all the roads and marching them in and out

[sotonian]

lets not get carried away here, we have had two 30k gates, one in a game to get to wembley, the other against pompey, we dont really need a bigger stadium for a while yet

[Whitey Grandad]

Is 10 years a reasonable payback? It's an awful long time in football. Could it be seen as a servicable debt?????

 

10% per annum? Not bad these days but hardly spectacular.

[Matthew Le God]

If it costs £25 million to build, then that's and extra 1 million tickets at £25 that need to be sold to justify it. If we average an extra 5k of fans per match as a result of the increase in capacity that would be 200 matches or just under 10 years.

mode>

So the question is, under the current regime, what are the expectations? If we are a top half Prem side, it's probably going to pay for itself. I could see us averaging 35k -40k. Anything less than that, probably not.

 

Is 10 years a reasonable payback? It's an awful long time in football. Could it be seen as a servicable debt?????

 

Personally, I think there is a case for doing it, and it's best done now rather than later, I'd rather be ready for the premier league than get there and then do it.

 

It also adds value to the club for when Mr Liebherr sells it eventually.

[John Boy Saint]

But the line IS electrified! I thought that there was a dispute between the club and network rail as to who should pay for the station. Network rail said that they wouldn't do it for the sake of 20 uses a year.

Not really a surprise in the grand scheme of things. With regard to the electrification I have often wondered how the trains that are sometimes laid up there get there, I figured that the power just came a convenient way down the track siding.

The story office in Saints was sponsored by Pravda at the time.

[St Landrew]

Still years away from worrying about that.

 

He'll only consider extending once we get 30k games each and every time.

 

I remember thinking that St Marys was too small for the Premiership. Saints were averaging near capacity crowds during 2001 to 2004. There was no reserve for potential growth. I've always thought a suitable size for the Premiership [and only the Premiership, so there is no immediate hurry] would be about 40,000.

 

Of course, our lovely stadium wouldn't be so pretty with 3 sides extended, and the roof put back on. It would be even more like The Riverside Stadium.

[Colinjb]

I remember thinking that St Marys was too small for the Premiership. Saints were averaging near capacity crowds during 2001 to 2004. There was no reserve for potential growth. I've always thought a suitable size for the Premiership [and only the Premiership, so there is no immediate hurry] would be about 40,000.

 

Of course, our lovely stadium wouldn't be so pretty with 3 sides extended, and the roof put back on. It would be even more like The Riverside Stadium.

 

Quite, over-extending can be dreadful. Just remember how fondly we remember the Dell, there is a lot to be said for having a stadium that can be dificult to get tickets for.

[Matthew Le God]

St Mary's averaged over 30k every season from 2001 to 2005. As soon as promotion to the Premiership happens it will be back to averages over 30k in the first season.

 

That would put Saints around 10th to 12th in the Premiership in size of gates.

 

Planning applications may take ages to go through so worth thinking about it in advance.

[Pilchards]

I would be guessing that the five year plan would have the expansion included in it.

What's our owner plans for this club? Make it a top 10 Premiership club and that means 40k+ crowds.

Would not be surprised it has not been discussed by Nicola yet considering we was asking the FA if we could be considered for the World Cup bid.

[Northant Saint]

I don't care how far-fetched and speculative these ideas are, I just love the fact that we are thinking about it and considering it as fans of and upward bound team.

 

Just imagine 50,000 people turning out of watch Saints. Wow.

[Saint_clark]

we have to build a team first that could sustain 30k + crowds - and we haven't got that yet - ok, the odd 2/3 games a season...but we're not going to get that every week until we're back in the top flight, sad to say.

 

When we're back in the CCC and competing in the top half, it may be worth having a look at how it can be done.

 

We've had 2/3 sell outs already

Add Leeds and, IMO, Southend to that list and we have 5 sell outs games in League One with a 32k seater stadium. Not bad going.

[Toussaint]

When we were in the prem we had near sell outs every week, but the nature of the prem is it attracts “soccer fans”. The hard core Saints fans were in a minority in some parts of the ground, outnumbered by people with and interest generally in premier league football and in many cases having greater allegiance to the visiting “big” teams. I didn’t enjoy this at all, being frowned on for jumping up and down, making a noise and generally getting excited; I am not talking about antisocial behaviour I am talking about passionate support.

The bottom line is that Saints have a hard core of probably 22,000 who go thick and thin. If you invite say another 20 000 in who will they be? And what will it be like on a rainy cold Tuesday night when only 15000 turn up for an unattractive fixture and there are 35000 empty seats? In some ways when we dropped out the prem it was good to see all of the real fans re united in one place, it was in some small way like being back at the Dell.

I think we are just fine as we are for the foreseeable future as the family that we are, better to sell out than be half full, you still have to pay the mortgage.

[Miffy]

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/n/northam/index.shtml

 

I found this strangely interesting. Maybe I am (unknowingly) a train spotter?

Edited 15 February, 2010 by Miffy
spelling mistake, no 'n'

[lordswoodsaints]

I think if the whole northam/waterfront area was developed,as was discussed many times last year and the year before in takeover threads then the train companies would be falling over themselves to build a station.

If we make it to the prem and this coincides with a mass development in the firm of a marina etc (perhaps a better version of gunwharf) then I can see perhaps a partial extension to st marys,maybe 40-45k capacity.

When we were in the prem last time we never sold out every game so there really isn't the demand to extend.

[so22saint]

If and when we're back in the Premiership, with the the stated plans of NC and ML (i.e. they will invest to see us "up there", then the stadium extension makes much more sense.

 

As mentioned it will make SFC a more saleable asset and if we are in the top half of the EPL, we'll sell it out no problem which in theory should shorten the payback considerably.

[rooney]

The Management of the club know what they are doing and I suspect this issue has never been considered. IMO we would have to be back in the Premiership and 25K ST sold each year for 3 years before this would ever be considered.

[JustMike]

heard on saturday that their are plans for this, but not until we are back in the prem. Its not just football they are thinking about.

[Ken Tone]

I remember thinking that St Marys was too small for the Premiership. Saints were averaging near capacity crowds during 2001 to 2004. There was no reserve for potential growth. I've always thought a suitable size for the Premiership [and only the Premiership, so there is no immediate hurry] would be about 40,000.

 

Of course, our lovely stadium wouldn't be so pretty with 3 sides extended, and the roof put back on. It would be even more like The Riverside Stadium.

 

The Riverside isn't so bad. The one to avoid is the City Ground

 

http://www.stadiumguide.com/cityground.htm

 

That has a change of stand height part way along an end. Looks terrible.

 

Think St Mary's could still look ok it they extend 'sympathetically' . Need not be all 3 stands at once either. Could just put another tier on the Northam for instance, thereby solving the away fans issue too, because they could have 2 tiers of a much narrower section of the end/corner, still providing as much space for them as now, with 2 tiers of nearly all the bigger Northam end for home fans.

 

But I too can't see this happening for a while. I presme btw that during the building work, there would have to be some closure of the existing stands underneath? So

maybe if Liebher and Cortese are *really* ambitious they might just do it in the CCC in preparation for the premiership, whilst the crowds are still a bit smaller, but I doubt it.

 

K.

[100%Red&White]

The Riverside isn't so bad. The one to avoid is the City Ground

 

http://www.stadiumguide.com/cityground.htm

 

That has a change of stand height part way along an end. Looks terrible.

 

Think St Mary's could still look ok it they extend 'sympathetically' . Need not be all 3 stands at once either. Could just put another tier on the Northam for instance, thereby solving the away fans issue too, because they could have 2 tiers of a much narrower section of the end/corner, still providing as much space for them as now, with 2 tiers of nearly all the bigger Northam end for home fans.

 

K.

 

Would also look terrible.

 

If you going to put another tier over any stand it should be the Kingsland. Would obviously seat more along the side and look aesthetically better, give the opportunity to install more boxes and maybe a big banqueting suite overlooking the pitch and keep the sun out of the eyes of fans in the Itchen!

 

Two-tier 'kops' never work, good examples being the old noisy Holte End at Villa and Arsenal's North Bank - killed some great old 'ends'.

[Saint_clark]

Am I right in saying the pitch can also be dug downwards, adding 4 or 5 more rows of seats?

[Ken Tone]

Am I right in saying the pitch can also be dug downwards, adding 4 or 5 more rows of seats?

 

Could happen in some places, but right next to the river? How low can the water table be at St Mary's ?

 

K.

[gaz]

If a plan was drawn up to expand, and application was submitted and successfully approved, how long does the planning persmission exist until it expires?

[John B]

i would rather us get a Team capable of staying in the Premier League before expanding St Mary's

[Handyman]

Well done Miffy!

Loading fans off and on trains just a few feet from the ground would help to put a stop to the unpleasant behavior of braindead morons that call themselves football fans but in reality just use a gathering of people to cause trouble because they like doing it.