Another false dawn?

[sadoldgit]

A few years ago the perception was that Lowe had to go if the club was to progress.

 

He did go and enter the Wilde Bunch to even wilder acclaim. Wilde was a fan so that was good apparently. He then spent a lot of money on what was perceived as a sh*t or bust exercise and guess what, he busted.

 

He went but his acoloytes stayed on, got rid of our 3 best players and stated publically that we were no longer going for promotion, which was quite plainly obvious as Dodd/Gorman/Pearson between them saw as in the relegation zone. So no new dawn there.

 

Depending on who you believe, Lowe and Crouch were brought back by the money people to steady the ship. To be fair I don't think that anyone thought that was a new dawn, false or otherwise. No money, no aspiration, administration and relegation followed.

 

Finally, a new dawn with the A Team. Markus with money, Nicola with huge busness acumen and a Premiership standard manager. Yay!

 

Just over a year in, the owner has passed away (and it seems his money is all tied up following his sad passing), Nicola is said to be "delusional" and the Premiership manager standard manager departed. We sit in the relegation zone of the 3rd tier of English football after 7 games.

 

Lowe was seen to be the reason for our fall from grace but several people have come in a tried their hands at turning things round and, to date, they have all failed.

 

I'd like to believe that the Cortese/Adkins combination, once the money comes through again, will finall get it right, but I am not holding my breath. How much time will Adkins have to get it right before he is out of the door? It is hard to see him seeing out his contract if we are not promoted this season.

 

You do have to wonder though why so many people have not managed to make the impact on this club that we all wish for. It seems that for all the money ploughed into campaigns, for all the planning, there is no winning formula. It happens or it doesn't and that is dependant on all of the people at a club galvanising themselves and a ceratin chemistry kicking in and taking over. We haven't had that in years and when we did have it it didn't happen overnight, it took years of hard work.

 

That is the club I think we are. We do things the hard way, no overnight successes for us, not in the past, not in the future.

 

If we are to grow and flourish then Cortese needs to change and needs to find patience. He might have digestive problems becuase of the stress of matchdays and the overwhelming ambition to see this club in the Champions League, but if he doesn't reign himself in a bit I fear that we will be facing futher disappointments and yet another false dawn.

[Wes Tender]

Lowe is gone. Get over it and move on. You're getting worse than Dalek with his Hoddle fixation.

[Marsdinho]

Could be worse, we could all be skates...

 

think about that one,

['00']

Yawn

[Alain Perrin]

I suggest listening to some music. "Have a Little Patience", "Rome wasn't built in a day" etc.

 

We're having a blip. A disruptive blip, in an important season, but a blip. Last year we went through with a minimum of injuries / suspensions and this seems to have caught up with us. However, given the money we have spent and the players that showed their ability last year, I am still confident that we will prevail.

 

Personally I wouldn't swap our financial position, infrastructure, team or setup for any other in L1.

 

Happy clappy? Maybe. I call it realism.

[doggface]

don't think it's a bad post to be honest. things are pretty grim right now, last season we won a trophy and the team played some great stuff last year.

 

It's difficult to see where our next goal/win will come from. I applaud Cortese's ambition but that fact is we are near the bottom of the 3rd division and I could do without champions league talk - starting to sound like that ***** at city gary cook. (at least cook has the players).

 

One step at a time I say and at the moment I just cant see promotion - we need 3 or 4 new faces minimum.

[Teddy Nutkins]

Over to you "Alpine".........?

[SaintRichmond]

.

 

If we are to grow and flourish then Cortese needs to change and needs to find patience. He might have digestive problems becuase of the stress of matchdays and the overwhelming ambition to see this club in the Champions League, but if he doesn't reign himself in a bit I fear that we will be facing futher disappointments and yet another false dawn.

 

That is the key phrase, and the Key to eventual success

 

We do not know the reason for Pardew's departure, and we either accept Cortese's " I had no choice" or not

 

As CEO, he was acting on behalf of the OWNERS of our Club. That is also Key. The Leibherr Family own the Club, WE don't

 

If that is accepted, then we get back to the "patience" Theme

 

We ALL want stability, both Owner and Supporter. The Owners thought that we would have stability under Pardew, but that was derailed (for reasons not spoken) and the Owners have to start again

 

We have started again with Nigel Adkins, who IMHO, WILL be successful Football wise, IF GIVEN TIME

 

Time is a Successful Manager's most elusive comodity, as few Managers are given enough of it

 

I think most would have to agree, that one of the most successful Managers is Sir Alex Ferguson, but it is interesting to note that early in his caree at Man Utd, he came very close to getting the Boot when things were going against him

 

Man Utd didn't get rid of him, and look at them now

 

IMHO, I would venture to say that if it is purely down to FOOTBALL, then Cortese MUST stick with his Manager for the long haul

 

Cortese is already in the 2nd Year of the Five Year Plan. Nigel Adkins is on one hell of a mission to make up for our terrible start.

 

Adkins is Cortese's Choice ( a good one IMHO ), but Cortese MUST now back him 1000%, and somehow make a bit of Dosh available

 

for New Players

 

The Question is, Can he, and Will he ??

[Panda]

Gosh, you are a sad old git aren't you!

[Wes Tender]

don't think it's a bad post to be honest. things are pretty grim right now, last season we won a trophy and the team played some great stuff last year.

 

 

And at exactly this time last year, things were pretty grim and we hadn't won a trophy. One step at a time, fine. But if the players' mental attitude is the same as that of some of the wrist-slashers on here, then that win won't happen until they come across a team whose players are even more depressed and mentally defeated.

[SaintRichmond]

Gosh, you are a sad old git aren't you!

 

Thank you for your constructive in depthe response to points raised

 

It must feel great to be such a linguistic genious

 

I will put your answer along with Shakespeare's best

[Professor]

don't think it's a bad post to be honest. things are pretty grim right now, last season we won a trophy and the team played some great stuff last year.

 

It's difficult to see where our next goal/win will come from. I applaud Cortese's ambition but that fact is we are near the bottom of the 3rd division and I could do without champions league talk - starting to sound like that ***** at city gary cook. (at least cook has the players).

One step at a time I say and at the moment I just cant see promotion - we need 3 or 4 new faces minimum.

 

Good post.

 

The dawn was already fading when there were no signings in June/July to rebuild and strengthen. If anyone doubted that they should have taken more notice of the poor pre-season. We are now a run-of-the mill 3rd division side and if we aren't careful it will be the 4th division next year. Even if there is a turn around - and the MK Dons game gave us the thinnest of straws to grasp, but even if there is a turn around, - automatic promotion is already unrealistic this year and so is the building of a team that could go into the nPC and set it alight.

 

The five-year plan is now looking like getting to the Championship, and although they will all claim higher ambition, so will about 30 or 40 other clubs.

[SaintRichmond]

Good post.

 

The dawn was already fading when there were no signings in June/July to rebuild and strengthen. If anyone doubted that they should have taken more notice of the poor pre-season. We are now a run-of-the mill 3rd division side and if we aren't careful it will be the 4th division next year. Even if there is a turn around - and the MK Dons game gave us the thinnest of straws to grasp, but even if there is a turn around, - automatic promotion is already unrealistic this year and so is the building of a team that could go into the nPC and set it alight.

 

The five-year plan is now looking like getting to the Championship, and although they will all claim higher ambition, so will about 30 or 40 other clubs.

 

I agree

 

What has not been answered is the Reason why no additions were made in the close season, when it wa sobvious to most that we needed to strengthen

 

Was it because No Funds were available, if so, that knocks Cortese's Five Year Plan on the head

 

Was it because of Pardew/Cortese unrest ??? If so, that is a poor excuse, as it still did not detract from the fact that Strengthening WAS neede

 

In short, IF Cortese is serious about Markus's Five Year Plan, then it DOE require Money For Players at regular intervals

 

Whether Cortese appreciates that fact or not, that is how Clubs advance and get Bigger

 

In the Prem, we once achieved "Medium" status IMHO

 

We have now sunk to MINNOWS in the Third Level of UK Football

 

 

PS I now eagerly await Pandas Nobel Peace Prize Quality Literary response

[Ian the Red]

All doom and gloom!! We are 9 points from the top of the table, probabaly a couple of players short of decent team. Last season at this time we were 4 or 5 players short and around 25 points from the top. Good players do not become bad players overnight. We need a little bit of luck, the rub of the green, a goal and a win and the players will find their feet and we'll start winning again.

 

NC will be successful; people like NC do not do failure - he will succeed in his/the Leibherr family goal; he will not fail his friend's ambition.

 

A little patience is all that is needed from the supporters. Christ we still have 39 league games to go!!!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

A fairly sound appraisal of where we are and why we are.

However we now have no choice but to unite behind NC/NA. Let's hope we have finally found a winning formula.

 

I just hope and pray NC is not already having second thoughts and looking to unload because "better the devil you know".

[The Kraken]

What has not been answered is the Reason why no additions were made in the close season, when it wa sobvious to most that we needed to strengthen

 

Was it because No Funds were available, if so, that knocks Cortese's Five Year Plan on the head

 

Was it because of Pardew/Cortese unrest ??? If so, that is a poor excuse, as it still did not detract from the fact that Strengthening WAS neede

 

In short, IF Cortese is serious about Markus's Five Year Plan, then it DOE require Money For Players at regular intervals

 

Whether Cortese appreciates that fact or not, that is how Clubs advance and get Bigger

 

I don't think we'll ever find out why players weren't brought in; at least not in public, anyway. What we do know is:

 

The previous manager identified the need for a new central midfielder, a right midfielder to replace Waigo/Antonio, and another striker to complement the existing 3.

 

A trial was given to a CM (Carter) who has since signed for a club in the NPC.

 

We heard a few more utterances from the manager as the pre-season progressed that hopes were still of new players coming in.

 

A player was brought in on loan, not fulfilling the criteria of the 3 missing positions idenitified by the manager. With several misigivings surrounding who actually made the transfer, said player has since hardly featured for the club.

 

The manager and his backup team were fired. However, the caretaker manager insisted that he hoped to still bring in new players. But as the end of the tansfer window approached and then past, no new signings were made.

 

The caretaker manager then admitted " we tried to sign a few players but it just didn't happen".

 

Whoever's fault it was (and as I said I believe that publically we'll never find out), that just adds up to a catalogue of transfer failure over the summer. The squad was cleared of the dead wood at the start of the summer in order to refill it with quality, and all that happened was that we solved our right back problem.

 

I still maintain that this squad should have been perfectly capable of making a much better start than we have, but that doesn't detract from the fact that we are stillat least 3 players short of the squad we need for a whole season. And the longer we go without the more our general malaise will continue.

[Saint_clark]

I only read the first three paragraphs, but you had already rewritten history in that small section so many times that reading on was pointless.

[Rebel]

the 5 year plan was based on getting out of League 1 in the first 2 years by either going up through the play-offs in the first season - i.e. last season - or going up automatically in the second season - i.e. this season. That would have given us 3 years to make it through ther Championship to the Premiership

 

But this was based on rebuilding the team, strengthening it and keeping the momentum going. That momentum has been lost since the end of last season - and the team is visibly weaker than last season.

 

I have no doubts that if the team from last season - with Waigo and Antonio - had been strengthened slightly over the summer we would have been looking at automatic promotion this season and kept that momentum going

 

now we are looking at making the play-offs at best this season - and that is an outside chance unless things change dramatically and the squad is strengthened very quickly with at least the striker, winger and central midfielder we so desperately need

 

the big problem is unless things do change quickly our key players - Lambert, Lallana, Fonte and Schneiderlin will look to move on in January to clubs already in the Championship or Premiership. And if not then I can't see them staying for another season in League 1 so they will be gone in the summer

 

which means we will probably be even weaker next season - and the 5 year plan will have to be revised to making it out of League 1 and into the Championship in 5 years by growing a team slowly - and there is no guarantee we will do that

 

why has this happened - why have things changed do much is just a close season - why has the momentum gone?

 

I think Markus Liebherr's death changed things more than most of us care to admit. It looks as though the money has gone - that the Liebherrs funding of the club has more or less stopped. And that is the simple reason why we failed to strengthen the team in the summer - everybody - players, manager and supporters - new the team needed strengthening but the money to do it disappeared with Markus.

 

This put a stop on the promises made to Pardew and the players about building a team good enough for the Championship - and I imagine caused more friction between Pardew and Cortese over the lack of transfer funds and the failure to sign players (Antonio, Matt Phillips, Nicky Bailey, etc, etc) - and the weight of expectation.

 

If the more probable rumours are to be believed Pardew and his two assistants then applied for the vacant jobs at Villa or asked Cortese for permision to talk to Villa - this proved to be the final straw for Cortese in his relationship with Pardew and led to a parting of the ways.

 

to be honest if this was the case I don't blame Pardew for wanting the Villa job - and I can understand why Cortese got rid of Pardew as a result

 

if the money has run out at Saints Nigel Adkins - with his track record at S****horpe - is probably the better man for the job - but as fans we are going to have to accept the new timescales for getting out of League 1 and probably accept that the Premiership (with the new parachute payments to the relegated clubs in the Championship making it almost impossible to compete with them) is beyond us

 

I just hope we can recoup or make money from the sales of players like Lallana, Lambert, Fonte and Schneiderlin in January or next summer and invest it wisely in rebuilding the team for the new 5 year plan

 

I hope I am proved wrong about the money drying up though

[Joensuu]

Agree with much of what you say. Generally a good post. Just a couple of points:

 

Nicola is said to be "delusional"

Who has said this?

 

and the Premiership manager standard manager departed.

Are you suggesting that Pardew was 'Premiership' standard? Sure he might have been up to the grade until Gerrard beat his team in Cardiff pretty much single-handedly, but he certainly wasn't up to it after then. IMO his 'honest' media style, and eye for a good player (which might just have been 'buy the best player from each other team in the league' rather than talent), was outweighed by his one dimensional long-ball tactics, and lack of a plan B. Premier League, you're having a...

[SaintRichmond]

What does seem obvious in everyone's train of thought, is the situation regarding FUNDS

 

What needs to be established is :-

 

ARE the Leibherrs still making Funds available ??

 

If NOT, then tell us

 

If NOT, then Cortese must Officially announce that the Five Year Plan on PEANUTS is not viable

 

He should also tell us that, come January, all the disallusioned players at St Mary's are going to want away

 

Cortese should then fully understand why Attendances will have dropped allarmingly

 

Circa 22K per home match last season

 

Circa Half that with a struggling Third Division Club

 

IMHO, IF the Funds have dried up, it makes no Business sense at all

[Weston Saint]

It has been a grim start to this years campaign. For what reasons is always open to debate. Was money available to strengthen, did Pardew lose interest, were the team less fit than last season, have the pre and early season injuries hit us harder that then should, is it the loss of pace? Probably a combination of all.

 

I would like to think that with a little time Adkins will get us back to what we were expecting this season and even if automatic promotion fades away I see us being one of the playoff teams and by then a force to be reckoned with. If so we will be back on track with the much vaunted business plan.

 

What are the alternatives for SFC if the Liebherr family sell up? I shudder to think but you can bet we would soon be a club in debt (new owner borrowing against the stadium and facilities) and very little money for players.

 

This is the Liebherr money and I am sure they appreciate they are custodians of the club and have not forgotten the supporters but are trying to establish a decent and balanced business model at a time when football finances is this country are a complete mess. It takes time, there will be issues along the way but we have to give them our support just as many supporters blindly support the club may be we should give Nicola Cortese a bit of space. We are only starting year two of five (or four as some suggest)

Edited 22 September, 2010 by Weston Saint

[The Saint]

Thank you for your constructive in depthe response to points raised

 

It must feel great to be such a linguistic genious

 

I will put your answer along with Shakespeare's best

 

I think Panda was referring to the OP's Login details, rather than your post!

 

At least, I hope he was...

[Harry Faz]

We have no choice but to support the current team, and see what transpires, and trust that they really do have a 5yr plan , with the necessary funds. It isnt clear whether they have or havent at this stage. On one hand it does seem very strange that as this is a key season in the 5 yr plan - the promotion to the championship season- why did we line up at the begining of this season weaker than where we ended the previous season? when the Manager had identified the areas where we needed strengthening ? On the other , it would seem odd for NC to continue in the role, making aspirational statements about champions league football etc, the redevelopment of staplewood , if he didnt have the necessary funds ? We are just going to have to wait and see what happens.

[Joensuu]

IMHO, IF the Funds have dried up, it makes no Business sense at all

 

May I respond Laconically?

[Andoverian]

A fairly sound appraisal of where we are and why we are.

However we now have no choice but to unite behind NC/NA. Let's hope we have finally found a winning formula.

 

I just hope and pray NC is not already having second thoughts and looking to unload because "better the devil you know".

I hope and pray that NC IS having second thoughts as his plans and the way he has been running this club have not impressed me in the slightest. I suspect that there is a buyer out there who is more in tune with the fans and our expectations and aspirations. This club is now debt free and isn't a bad buy at the right price. Don't be surprised if the Leibher family sell in the not too distant future. I see no sign whatsoever of investment and I don't buy into the idea that the money is tied up because of the Liebher death. All I can see is an ongoing attempt to raise income from the fanbase (well documented on this site) and greatly reduce costs including player expenditure. It hardly smacks of a regime who have strong ambitions to take the club forward as per the original Cortese/Marcus Leibher plan. Watch this space.

[Joensuu]

Didn't Markus say he intended for the club to be self-financing? If so, why does "no sign whatsoever of investment" surprise?

 

Anyhow, did anyone in league one outspend up this summer? (Genuine question) I bet if not top spenders, we were in the top 2 or 3...

[niceandfriendly]

What does seem obvious in everyone's train of thought, is the situation regarding FUNDS

 

What needs to be established is :-

 

ARE the Leibherrs still making Funds available ??

 

If NOT, then tell us

 

If NOT, then Cortese must Officially announce that the Five Year Plan on PEANUTS is not viable

 

He should also tell us that, come January, all the disallusioned players at St Mary's are going to want away

 

Cortese should then fully understand why Attendances will have dropped allarmingly

 

Circa 22K per home match last season

 

Circa Half that with a struggling Third Division Club

 

IMHO, IF the Funds have dried up, it makes no Business sense at all

 

There's absolutely no way they will come out and give us information about how much money is available from the Liebherrs. That'd put us in an incredibly weak bargaining position when it comes to transfers.

 

However, there has already been 2 statements after Markus' passing which clearly say that the 5 year plan is still well and truly on. That should be good enough for us 'information hungry/desperate' supporters.

Edited 22 September, 2010 by niceandfriendly

[The Kraken]

I hope and pray that NC IS having second thoughts as his plans and the way he has been running this club have not impressed me in the slightest. I suspect that there is a buyer out there who is more in tune with the fans and our expectations and aspirations. This club is now debt free and isn't a bad buy at the right price. Don't be surprised if the Leibher family sell in the not too distant future. I see no sign whatsoever of investment and I don't buy into the idea that the money is tied up because of the Liebher death. All I can see is an ongoing attempt to raise income from the fanbase (well documented on this site) and greatly reduce costs including player expenditure. It hardly smacks of a regime who have strong ambitions to take the club forward as per the original Cortese/Marcus Leibher plan. Watch this space.

 

Nope, I just can't agree with any of that I'm afraid.

 

If there's anything our previous financial mismanagement has taught us, it's that we mustn't get ahead of ourselves and live beyond our means. So as much as Cortese has made a few controversial decisions (and of course a few mistakes), the only proper way for us to progress is by spending money that we make from the fanbase, and not by some mysterious "investment".

 

As a club we make more than enough money to justify all of the following: employing one of the best managers in the league; pay transfer fees for the best players in the league; and afford the wage demands of the best players in the league. Staying within our budget should, with adequte management, see us rise back to the npc. From there, who knows, but I'd much rather see us with a stable future living within our means than sell out to another Wilde-bunch collection of chancers who will hock us up in debt all over again just to win over a few fans and go sh1t or bust once more.

[Andoverian]

.

Didn't Markus say he intended for the club to be self-financing? If so, why does "no sign whatsoever of investment" surprise?

 

Anyhow, did anyone in league one outspend up this summer? (Genuine question) I bet if not top spenders, we were in the top 2 or 3...

If he said "self financing" then that means he didn't intend to put any money into the club so that surely proves my point. The present regime is no different to any other club in this league. They are all trying to be self financing so why have we got any more chance of success than anybody else. Under this regime our expectations should surely be a lot lower than the hype that has been spewed out to the fans. We have a potential fanbase of 20,000 and the income that has generated over the past year and will generate in the future is all that will be available for player investment in my opinion. Therefore why are we so pleased to be owned by the present incumbents.

[Under Weststand]

The players we have at our disposal have not become bad players over night. Something has gone on behind the scenes with the players/training staff that has undermined the pre-season & the start of the season. The absoulte silence that has eminated form the Pardew camp & the LMA is defening IMHO. Now I´m not saying that NC is inocent in all this, but he has a vision he now has his manager in place with a good reputation for playing football the right way & had some sucsess at this level & beyond. Its time for a deep breath & give NA a few games & a few weeks to sort this mess out. Panicing will get us knowhere fast!

[Joensuu]

.

If he said "self financing" then that means he didn't intend to put any money into the club so that surely proves my point. The present regime is no different to any other club in this league. They are all trying to be self financing so why have we got any more chance of success than anybody else.

 

How many other clubs in our league are debt free? How many others average around 20k fans? If you think about it, our level of 'self-finance' is significantly above anyone else in the divison.

 

.Under this regime our expectations should surely be a lot lower than the hype that has been spewed out to the fans.

... based on the money we generate ourselves compared to others in the league, I disagree.

 

.We have a potential fanbase of 20,000 and the income that has generated over the past year and will generate in the future is all that will be available for player investment in my opinion.

Possibly. That's certainly their intention in the long run. But I wouldn't rule out futher investment to help get us there.

 

.Therefore why are we so pleased to be owned by the present incumbents.

So they took over a sinking ship, plugged the holes, brought onboard the best crew they could find, have plans to provide a new galley with state of the art facilities, have mentioned that they want to invest in other significant upgrades to the size of the ship, and have ambitions to make the ship one of the finest in the country, and you ask me why 'we are so pleased'? Whether through direct investment or not, the Leibherr's are allowing us to outspend everyone else in the division. They want to challenge to the very top. Why the long face?

[hughieslastminutegoal]

.

If he said "self financing" then that means he didn't intend to put any money into the club so that surely proves my point. The present regime is no different to any other club in this league. They are all trying to be self financing so why have we got any more chance of success than anybody else. Under this regime our expectations should surely be a lot lower than the hype that has been spewed out to the fans. We have a potential fanbase of 20,000 and the income that has generated over the past year and will generate in the future is all that will be available for player investment in my opinion. Therefore why are we so pleased to be owned by the present incumbents.

 

We showed last year that when things are going well the attendance is considerably higher, so the potential is more than 20k. A lot of players have gone and new players will probably not yet have used up that saving. Unfortunately Pardew's sacking will probably have cost a contract settlement amount. So financially things are probably on balance pretty sound. Adkins will (and there's no doubt in my mind about it) start getting results, and when players come back from injury we'll be stronger. I think we need to improve centre midfield, and if we do that and if Holmes can keep fit, we could have a well balanced side with enough cover for this season. Some good wins will get the fans back into the stadium. I'm quite optimistic about the rest of the season.

[The Kraken]

Exactly right Jonesuu. Unfortunately I think some people still labour under the misapprehension that the world is full of benevolent Abramovich-type figures who are going to come in with "investment" and throw money at the problem without looking for a financial return. Not going to happen, I'm afraid. And as I stated earlier, given what we've previously been through I'd much rather exist within our own means that go for broke with another renegade bunch of chancers who are just as likely to push us back into financial meltdown than take us to the Premier League.

[Topcat]

I agreed with sadoldgit in most parts. The main conclusion that comes across is the problem with the quality of the Leader of the Club. We have suffered from many inadequate Leaders apart from Marcus. Lions led by Donkeys.

 

We actually have a very viable Club and I hope that Cortese can quickly learn some business management skills or is replaced with a better Leader.

[speed demon]

FWIW I think the funds are either still available or are going to be available again. I think the lack of activity over the summer was down to waiting for better players that for whatever reason are not here. I find it difficult to believe that the family would say they are going to see through the plan and then shut the money off. So overal I think we will get going again because as others have said they are a good group of players, they just need the right guidance which hopefully NA can deliver.

[Delmary]

Lowe is gone. Get over it and move on. You're getting worse than Dalek with his Hoddle fixation.

ditto

[hughieslastminutegoal]

FWIW I think the funds are either still available or are going to be available again. I think the lack of activity over the summer was down to waiting for better players that for whatever reason are not here. I find it difficult to believe that the family would say they are going to see through the plan and then shut the money off. So overal I think we will get going again because as others have said they are a good group of players, they just need the right guidance which hopefully NA can deliver.

 

...or that Cortese eventually decided to lose AP and following a crap pre-season and possibly poor training as well, wasn't going to get any more players in until a new manager got the side sorted out and identified the requirement.

[John Smith]

How many other clubs in our league are debt free? How many others average around 20k fans? If you think about it, our level of 'self-finance' is significantly above anyone else in the divison.

 

... based on the money we generate ourselves compared to others in the league, I disagree.

 

Possibly. That's certainly their intention in the long run. But I wouldn't rule out futher investment to help get us there.

 

 

So they took over a sinking ship, plugged the holes, brought onboard the best crew they could find, have plans to provide a new galley with state of the art facilities, have mentioned that they want to invest in other significant upgrades to the size of the ship, and have ambitions to make the ship one of the finest in the country, and you ask me why 'we are so pleased'? Whether through direct investment or not, the Leibherr's are allowing us to outspend everyone else in the division. They want to challenge to the very top. Why the long face?

 

Absolutely, and it does my head in, that even after all this investment, from what was an absolutely dire situation and aside from Morgan, Lallana, Kelvin and Bart, ML and NC have purchased a whole new squad, 'fans' are still moaning and whinging and talking about Lowe and wanting to get rid of NC and selling or rather dropping our best players.

 

ML did want this club to be self sustaining, and it is. We have a very good team, thanks to ML (RIP)! And now it is up to Adkins and the players WITH OUR SUPPORT to fulfill the dream! The ball is in our court. And so I call for unity and support during these difficult times. Stop crying like babies about the 'lack of investment' you spoilt little brats. We have the best team possible, especially if you compare us to where we were 15 months ago! So, buy a ticket and shout your lungs off in Support of our team. After all , we are 'supporters' aren't we? Although I think we need a new section of fans called the 'moaners'!

 

Oh, and to answert the OP, could've been a good debate if you hadn't gone on about Lowe so much. Let it lie, move on. Yes we have come forward, yes it is a new dawn, because under Lowe, there was no tomorrow, no dawn whatsoever, we were dead in the water, cut adrift and entering liquidation. So, every Saturday, thanks to Cortese primarily and ML (RIP) for backing his man, we have a team to SUPPORT, so I suggest you do it!

[Clifford Nelson]

It takes time, there will be issues along the way but we have to give them our support just as many supporters blindly support the club may be we should give Nicola Cortese a bit of space. We are only starting year two of five (or four as some suggest)

 

We are, of course, at the moment only surmising about our current owner, of whom we know nothing, Ron. Cortese is therefore more important to this club than ever. Even if the family has only got limited interest in this asset, it doesn't go without saying that the club would be sold to a skint arab or a british second hand car dealer. Cortese appears to have been doing plenty of dealing on the sports desk of his bank over the years, which is why he identified this opportunity for ML. I would have thought than he therefore has got as much knowledge as anybody about possible and genuine suitors in case the family would like to off load eventually. Let's not forget that the plans are Cortese's vision as much as ML's.

 

I am not worried about our financial standing, nor Adkins, who I think is a good appointment. What I would like to see is some time of calmness, which could be achieved if there was a little bit more communication coming out of SMS which could calm the spirits.

 

The team needs a few more signings, of that we're all agreed. The one who knows least about it at the moment is NA, who only arrived a week ago. I'm rather pleased that we didn't see a sudden influx of 'old Adkinites', which means that the current squad is getting a proper assessment. Even somebody like Holmes ought to be a good player at this level if fit. With good management NA could get us to the play offs, and if not I would be delighted to see that the team he is producing is becoming genuinely competitive and stop losing games against the relegation sides with regularity.

Edited 22 September, 2010 by Clifford Nelson

[Miltonaggro]

There are some very good points raised on this thread. After the takeover we were told about the glorious five year plan, saw a proven manager arrive (who whatever your position on him had a CV that said - Div 3 to Premiership) along with some good players, so we collectively bought into it. This was despite the ten point deduction last season (which was always going to make things very difficult), and despite the installment payments for season tickets being withdrawn this season - bear in mind that both season tickets and merchandise (shirt sales) were significantly up this year in anticipation of a football feast. After all the bookies are rarely wrong!

 

With this in mind, it is natural that a large number of loyal supporters (particulary those who have invested heavily in the current financial climate) are either concerned, exasperated, or angry with the current situation and creeping realisation that all may not be well. This has not been helped by the lack of information coming from the club as supporters are second guessing positively and negatively all of the time leading to yet more angst and fallout, this is evident in the grounds and on here. The club has made itself an easy target in so many ways that it beggars belief.

 

Nigel Adkins is a very good manager at this level, and of course we all want him to succeed, but it would be helpful to know what we are backing. Are we going to have some pending investment with these elusive three to four players that everybody (the happy clappers and wrist slashers) agrees we need on loan arriving within the next week to give NA options and more importantly motivational leverage? Are we going to be a selling club come January, with a mass exodus followed up by a mass recruitment? Are we now completely 'self-financing' with an inflexible budget regardless of the situation on the park? Is the five year plan now waste paper and if things don't improve quickly will NA get time to recruit, rebuild, and restructure?

 

We all love SFC, but what are we now supporting?...

[Wes Tender]

...or that Cortese eventually decided to lose AP and following a crap pre-season and possibly poor training as well, wasn't going to get any more players in until a new manager got the side sorted out and identified the requirement.

 

This is far too sensible as a possible explanation. Go away and come back with some crap analogy along the lines as others expounded by the wrist-slashers and those who are already turning their attentions to the next owners.

[Joensuu]

but it would be helpful to know what we are backing. Are we going to have some pending investment with these elusive three to four players that everybody (the happy clappers and wrist slashers) agrees we need on loan arriving within the next week to give NA options and more importantly motivational leverage?

We don't know for sure, but as loans tend to be inexpensive to organise, I can't see why not. I assume Adkins is busy looking for loans who will best fill the gaps he sees in the quad.

 

Are we going to be a selling club come January, with a mass exodus followed up by a mass recruitment? Are we now completely 'self-financing' with an inflexible budget regardless of the situation on the park? Is the five year plan now waste paper and if things don't improve quickly will NA get time to recruit, rebuild, and restructure?

Again, we don't know for sure, however, the information we have been given would suggest we definately won't be forced to sell anyone. Without external investment we should have a large Janurary budget upwards of £0.5m (this would be 'self financing'); however with investment the sky's the limit on the potential budget. Either way, 1/2 a million is more than anyone else in this league could hope for.

 

"Markus and I had agreed on a blueprint for future success. I have spoken at length with Markus' family and they are fully supportive of Saints and in fulfilling Markus' legacy. I can confirm to our supporters that ownership of Southampton Football Club shall remain solely within Markus' family's personal interests"

 

There are still 4 years left of the 5 year plan. It's not over yet. Anyhow, '5 year plan' is just a expression, do you think if we miss out at the end of 5 years that Cortese and the Leibherr's will just up and walk out? No, if we have failed, they will keep trying in the 6th and 7th years...

[notnowcato]

False dawn my haas.

 

There can only be one league winner, one FA cup winner darn it even only one Johnstones Paint trophy winner.

 

False dawn completely misses the point, it's just another day.

[Gaucho]

I was wondering if funds are not available because of Markus's death - aren't there all kinds of legal issues to be resolved before the estate actually passes to his inheritors?

[SaintRichmond]

Good post.

The dawn was already fading when there were no signings in June/July to rebuild and strengthen. If anyone doubted that they should have taken more notice of the poor pre-season. We are now a run-of-the mill 3rd division side and if we aren't careful it will be the 4th division next year. Even if there is a turn around - and the MK Dons game gave us the thinnest of straws to grasp, but even if there is a turn around, - automatic promotion is already unrealistic this year and so is the building of a team that could go into the nPC and set it alight.

The five-year plan is now looking like getting to the Championship, and although they will all claim higher ambition, so will about 30 or 40 other clubs.

 

That is the "History" that Nigel Adkins has inherited, and that is the scenario that he currently has to work to

 

ONE thing to remember is that Sc*nthorpe, in their PROMOTION Year, LOST their first FOUR Games

 

It's never over until the Fat lady sings

[SaintRichmond]

I was wondering if funds are not available because of Markus's death - aren't there all kinds of legal issues to be resolved before the estate actually passes to his inheritors?

 

That would be a logical explanation to the apparent lack of transfer activity

 

Perhaps we should have used the tried and tested method of the World Famous Portsmouth Promisary Bank Draft ??

 

It saved them well over £140M

[Doctoroncall]

It's strange that there is a call for management stability and yet when it comes to players in the squad, it becomes more of a chop and change to suit the moment especially as money was and still(?) there to spend. We don't need to buy our way out of the division, I cannot remember Norwich, Leeds, S****horpe, Doncaster etc doing so. Besides, how does that help build a sustainable and well developed squad?

 

Over the past few years before last season we have used 30+ players in the starting line-up and have struggled, whereas generally those teams that use

 

The development centre is part of the 5-year plan so there needs to be a balance of players we have (contract, age, ambition) with players coming up through the club (experience, readiness) and those purchased (team fit, cost).

 

I can see why Adkins is a better suited than Pardew on this considering Adkins has had to use the resources given to him to succeed rather than buy his way out - Pardew averages ten buys per season to Adkins six.

 

I'm sure he will be given time by Cortese and the team will start working well together soon.

[CanadaSaint]

I don't think it's a false dawn at all - just that the sun is taking longer to appear than we expected.

 

My fear since last Spring was that Cortese would keep Pardew grudgingly and that we'd enter a "hollow twilight" - the funds were available but Cortese didn't have enough faith in the manager to spend them. That, I very much supect, is what happened - especially as Pardew was permitted to spend quite heavily in January (when we were on the cusp of the playoffs) and yet we still missed out.

 

From what I understand, under Swiss inheritance rules the entire estate passes to the family at the point of death, so there's no time-consuming probate period. This would mean that "the money" Markus supposedly set aside to give life to his wishes is there now.

 

"The money", I suspect, is a finite sum set aside to bring Markus's dreams of reaching the Premier League to reality. Before he passed away it wasn't necessarily a finite sum but it probably is now. If we spend some now, then that much less is available for strengthening the squad in preparation for the Championship and (eventually, hopefully) the Premiership. Spending it wisely is a joint commitment of both Nicola and the Liebherr family. We will not blow a big chunk of the money just trying to get out of this division.

 

We already have a very expensive squad for our division, so don't expect any big transfers in. Some decent loans are the most likely route. As long as we are promoted this year, I'd be very surprised if we don't hold onto our best talent. If we miss out on promotion, those bets are off.

 

I think Cortese is more than ready to give Adkins time because he really does believe that managerial stability is key in any business. He's also "learned some lessons" from the Pardew period and I don't think he'll make some of those mistakes again.

 

As things progress over the next few years, we should expect to see more decisions - some of them highly controversial - aimed at making the Club self sufficient. That will be an ever present backdrop because that's how Cortese thinks and how he was trained to think.

 

Least controversial is the build-up of the academy - that's a "no-brainer" at every club, especially those of our size. Cortese's structure underlines the importance of this in his eyes.

 

At the other end of the scale, under Cortese's vision of a self-sustaining club it is going to become significantly more expensive to support Saints, and some current supporters will not be able to afford to go. He'll never admit that but I strongly suspect it's a reality. In some ways it's already started - and we're only in the third tier of English football.

[NickG]

false dawn?

 

1 year in, team has progressed, support is up - that is a dawn - will prgress be sustained? Suspect yes but next 8 weeks or so are vital to regain momentum

[derry]

A fairly sound appraisal of where we are and why we are.

However we now have no choice but to unite behind NC/NA. Let's hope we have finally found a winning formula.

 

I just hope and pray NC is not already having second thoughts and looking to unload because "better the devil you know".

 

Have you heard what I've heard?