A New Charge Against Southampton Football Club

[Gemmel]

For those that are interested in our finances, the Club have taken out a new fixed and floating charge against all assets.

 

The previous charge has been satisfied and the same company Vibrac Corporation has been used for the new one.

 

Whilst the charge in itself is nothing earth shattering, it does raise a few questions and perhaps suggests we are now self funding.

 

Having downloaded (From Companies House) the charge from last year (Which I cant find at the moment) and this new one, from memory this new one seems way more detailed in regards to the terms and conditions . A couple of examples- which I am assuming is based on defaulting, appears (I am no Lawyer, so will be happy to be corrected for those that understand these things in more depth) to give the lendor control of all bank accounts. Additionally Saints had to notify the Premier league and again based on what I assume to be if we defaulted, forces the Premier League to pass outstanding Premiership money to them (Vibrac).

 

The amount of the loan is blacked out, so we don't know how much it is for (It is quite a long field to be blacked out). The Swiss rambler believed the last charge to be 3 million, so a relatively small amount but if I am right about the two different contracts for the different charge, this loan might be a more significant amount.

 

I have long been of the opinion that we are no longer being funded by the family or any sort of trust from Markus - Which I have no problem with at all, but it does seem that these loans are at odds with Corteses interview on clubs spending next years tv money.

 

I am sure everything is under control and manageable, but worth keeping an eye on.

[Saint_clark]

I've thought for a while that we're not being funded by the Liebherrs as well. It explains why there are so many charges, parking booking fees etc, to maximise revenue.

[saint1977]

It's certainly possible but the question I would ask is why the tussle between Cortese and the trust fund/Katarina occured at the end of the season? The impression was that more funds had been released for the forward business plan. Perhaps a small amount of the estate is Plan B and the primary aim to is be self-financing, which is fair enough really and also fits with FAPP. All the more surprising then that Nicola has been opposed to FAPP.

[melmacian_saint]

I assume that after relying on them to bankroll the club to the PL, Cortese is now paying up to the Liebherrs.

 

MBO?

[Give it to Ron]

Could the charge be for the extension to the training ground plan?

[trousers]

I'm sure the Pompey sleuths, who confirmed the previous loan was for c.£35million, will be able to fill us in with the details on this new one shortly...

[trousers]

I see Everton have also been active in the 'charge' market over the last few months too.

 

 

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They've got 6 outstanding charges to our 1 at the moment

[trousers]

And West Ham are still at it too...

 

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[trousers]

Norwich....

 

[farawaysaint]

Could the charge be for the extension to the training ground plan?

 

That sir is a very, very good point of course we'd need a loan for development. (Not saying that this is what it's for mind.)

[Delboy Dave]

Dont have all these typsa charges with just me and lil ol' Rodders! We dont even pay no VAT never mind getting dosh from some suits! Cash is King!

[jayrivers]

Also I'm under the impression that TV money is paid throughout the year and no in one lump sum, so this wouldn't mean spending next years TV money if it was to cover until we receive this years money. And with the new training ground extention would make sense? As it seemed the last one was possibly for the new dome that needed building?

[Frank's cousin]

Also I'm under the impression that TV money is paid throughout the year and no in one lump sum, so this wouldn't mean spending next years TV money if it was to cover until we receive this years money. And with the new training ground extention would make sense? As it seemed the last one was possibly for the new dome that needed building?

 

 

Couple of things we should consider is that as you point out, the TV. Money is released in instalments - so many clubs will look for short term financing in the summer to cover initial fees associated with transfer activity etc. In addition, we have been spending big on Staplewood, so I would speculate we are 'living within our means' but that these loans are short term to cover this up front outlay - as we don't know the terms of the transfer fees and how much was paid up front etc... Also possible that thee is some dividend or return being paid back to the Liebherrs which is fair enough in my book given what the club has achieved under their ownership.

 

as Gemmel says , always good to keep an eye on these things, but doubt we have anything to worry about.

[saintbob40]

A statement of a satisfaction of a charge ( in full) means that a charge has been paid off and it is cleared from the charge register at companies house. Task is to marry up the registartion of charge entries v the corresponding satisfaction of charges entries and then see what's left. What's left is what's current...

[holepuncture]

I assume that after relying on them to bankroll the club to the PL, Cortese is now paying up to the Liebherrs.

 

MBO?

 

I have been of this opinion for quite some time (check out Hypochondriacs location, the mug!).

 

The Cortese v Katharina showdown this summer was to do with this too IMO.

 

Katharina was ready to get out but Cortese wasnt ready to facilitate an exit, if Katharina pulled out NC and MP said they would walk too, which would have seriously damaged Markus' legacy. It was reported at the time IIRC in some publications that NC had a small shareholding, maybe that is growing bit by bit, funded by Vibracs off shore lending + interest. Maybe he has a new five year plan?..

 

Mind you, the Staplewood developments make sense and I am merely a nutjob anyway.

[ericb]

If the liebherr's are pulling out then we should start asking some serious questions now. We are not even close to making the books balance in my opinion, though I could be wrong, and we don't want to end up like the cheats down the road.

 

Mind you the theory on the training ground makes a lot of sense, but if that's written off against the tv monies (like has been suggested) where had the money for Lovern, Wanyama and Osvaldo come from?

 

Let's not play games here, the last thing we should be doing after claiming the moral high ground over the skates is burying out heads in the sand. We know there's no way our ground, even with price hikes, can cover the money we've spent. And especially not seeing as how the attendance had been lower than last time we were in the prem (on what was a much cheaper squad).

 

Hopefully this is a nothing thing but we need to start asking these questions in my opinion, or we're just as bad as the cheats.

[Saint_clark]

If the liebherr's are pulling out then we should start asking some serious questions now. We are not even close to making the books balance in my opinion, though I could be wrong, and we don't want to end up like the cheats down the road.

 

Mind you the theory on the training ground makes a lot of sense, but if that's written off against the tv monies (like has been suggested) where had the money for Lovern, Wanyama and Osvaldo come from?

 

Let's not play games here, the last thing we should be doing after claiming the moral high ground over the skates is burying out heads in the sand. We know there's no way our ground, even with price hikes, can cover the money we've spent. And especially not seeing as how the attendance had been lower than last time we were in the prem (on what was a much cheaper squad).

 

Hopefully this is a nothing thing but we need to start asking these questions in my opinion, or we're just as bad as the cheats.

 

You've forgotten the TV money.

[ericb]

You've forgotten the TV money.

 

I was working on the assumption the tv money had been offset against the training ground improvements, as had been suggested, and we weren't being directly funded by the liebherr's anymore.

 

If that's the case there's a shortfall against players this season that isn't covered by ticket and merchandising

[Frank's cousin]

I was working on the assumption the tv money had been offset against the training ground improvements, as had been suggested, and we weren't being directly funded by the liebherr's anymore.

 

If that's the case there's a shortfall against players this season that isn't covered by ticket and merchandising

 

You are forgetting that most transfer fees are not paid in full up front and on the balance sheet the cost is written off over the length of the contract so although we have spent 60mil on players these last two seasons, on the books it's probably only around 20 mil so far - unless we paid any of them upfront etc.... The fact that last years was paid n full suggests that it was to cover before TV revenues wer available - and the terms will still have been over a year to ensure the lenders make a reasonable interest return etc.

 

if Nc is leveraging the clubs assets for a buy out - well rather him than someone we don't know. In the recent interview Nc was talking about next 3-5 years so unlikely he wants out...

[View From The Top]

I was working on the assumption the tv money had been offset against the training ground improvements, as had been suggested, and we weren't being directly funded by the liebherr's anymore.

 

If that's the case there's a shortfall against players this season that isn't covered by ticket and merchandising

 

I also think you are missing the huge increase in TV money.

 

Unlike the great unwashed down the road, we are vigilant and also unlike them, we will be publishing our accounts.

[Saint-scooby]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrac_Corporation

[Dark Munster]

I also think you are missing the huge increase in TV money.

 

Unlike the great unwashed down the road, we are vigilant and also unlike them, we will be publishing our accounts.

Not to mention we are not being run by arms dealers, child maimers, pension thieves, non-existent sheiks, crooks and morons.

[Dig Dig]

Love all the "let's start asking serious questions" comments whenever details of clubs finances are released. How and when are you planning on asking these questions a side from on a mboard?

[krissyboy31]

Just thinking aloud. Maybe we've been on Moneysavingexpert.com and switched lenders for the same charge, like I'm sure most of you do with your mortgage?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I know nothing about accounts and finances, so this may be an incredibly stupid question but...are there any financial benefits (tax breaks and so on) when you as a business have a loan and debt to pay? In that the financial benefits it brings offset the interest paid on the loan?

 

Or would there literally be no benefit to taking out a loan other than the short-term cash flow benefit?

[sammysaint]

Well this season has started well hopefully we have loaned money assuming were finish top 8 but maybe say top 10, so hopefully we wont get screwed over like the skates and leeds and end up back at square one.

 

If we sign a quicker version of Lallana i feel we would finish top 8 with ease so hopefully sell gaston and bring that person in allowing us to have Lallana Osvaldo Lambert new guy attacking premier league defences, and this loan will be paid early.

[jayrivers]

Well this season has started well hopefully we have loaned money assuming were finish top 8 but maybe say top 10, so hopefully we wont get screwed over like the skates and leeds and end up back at square one.

 

If we sign a quicker version of Lallana i feel we would finish top 8 with ease so hopefully sell gaston and bring that person in allowing us to have Lallana Osvaldo Lambert new guy attacking premier league defences, and this loan will be paid early.

 

The wiki article suggests that they lend against guaranteed income, so I think it would be against TV money, rather than relying us to finish in a certain place?

[Frank's cousin]

The wiki article suggests that they lend against guaranteed income, so I think it would be against TV money, rather than relying us to finish in a certain place?

 

 

true but the cash from sky/prem goes up around 700k per place so the difference between finishing 7th and 17th is around 10 mil so higher we finish the better ... obviously :-)

[rooney]

We have also acquired a new Company Secretary, as last month Mr G Rogers resigned and Mr M J Fenn was appointed.

[diggers]

As I understand it, a charge gives priority to certain creditors in the event of a default. Possibly the liebherr's are somehow, through a third party, protecting themselves??

[Saint Jude]

LLP has most likely got this spot on... as Vibrac is based in the Virgin Islands.. I suspect that this is much to do with managing corporation tax etc...

[Turkish]

Love all the "let's start asking serious questions" comments whenever details of clubs finances are released. How and when are you planning on asking these questions a side from on a mboard?

 

Twitter?

[Tokyo-Saint]

NC dinner parties.

[Turkish]

What a shame there isn't a tellnicola@saintsfc.co.uk address. It'd be perfect for all the mboard football finance experts to ask serious questions.

[Batman]

What we should do, is all March towards the ground on sat all dressed as clowns.

 

We can show the sky TV audience what a clown NC really is

[SaintNeil90]

Nobody has a clue what the charges etc are about. Nobody has a clue whether we are self financed, financed by the liebherrs or whatever.

[Saint86]

This is one hysterical thread. The club's finances are more than fine and we are still receiving funding from our benefactors... The reason the club are using all revenue streams is to maximize income (funny that), since the swizzers can only come up with so much chocolate before falling foul of FFP.

[Gemmel]

This is one hysterical thread. The club's finances are more than fine and we are still receiving funding from our benefactors... The reason the club are using all revenue streams is to maximize income (funny that), since the swizzers can only come up with so much chocolate before falling foul of FFP.

 

Utter tosh - Sorry mate, dont like to slate a fellow Saint, but this is a loan - Nothing to do with maximising income and certainly nothing to do with the FFP.

[Saint86]

Utter tosh - Sorry mate, dont like to slate a fellow Saint, but this is a loan - Nothing to do with maximising income and certainly nothing to do with the FFP.

 

so taking a loan may not be a way or rejigging the available balance for January, or reorganising funds. people on this thread have no idea, I repeat... no idea, what is going on with the clubs detailed finances.... you can't even reach a consensus on where the funding is from... however, if people believe that a man who has worked for and was the right hand man of ML for much of his life, has spontaneously adopted the opposite philosophy of that career in the accumulation of debt (loans we can't afford as you suggest) then I would suggest you are wrong.

 

that is my opinion, people forget that we posted a profit at the start of last season, had a net spend of 3m under Adkins to get to the pre and have accessed 2 huge TV deals with a small and modest wage squad. on top of that, ftp prevents the family/trust from underwriting substantial losses so we have always been run with that on the horizon by people whose lifes philosophy has been to avoid accumulating debt in business.

 

in addition, I was responding to the comments regarding parking charges indication the club is in financial trouble as merely indicating the "maximising of revenue streams" ....

 

now I won't "slate you" in return.... but considering you know jack and "hate to slate fellow fans", you can be awfully rude when you want.

 

also, thank you for proving my point... this thread is hysterical, grown men who know very little on the subject shouting down others with a differing opinion.

 

my 2 sense is that their is very little to indicate financial trouble at the club, if we were in debt then Morgan, shaw etc would not still be here... and you will see far more about the clubs financial plans come January and any outgoing business (lack of) that we do.

 

as for the family, I suspect that those talks were mostly PR for Nicola, the family etc and over further development of training ground possibly stadium also. don't see the issue with the club securing a loan to release funds earlier than otherwise.... why don't you all contemplate what it will be used for instead?

[Saint_clark]

Nobody has a clue what the charges etc are about. Nobody has a clue whether we are self financed, financed by the liebherrs or whatever.

 

Nope, but we can make judgements based on the evidence available. And the most likely scenario at the moment is that funding from the Liebherrs is slowly being pulled or has been pulled altogether.

There was a rumour when Markus passed away that he left a "trust fund" of sorts for the club, this would also tie into it. It's not a bad thing - it shows that clubs at this level CAN be self sustaining, although it only works for us because we have no huge mortgages to pay on stadiums, no shareholders to pay out to etc.

[Gemmel]

so taking a loan may not be a way or rejigging the available balance for January, or reorganising funds. people on this thread have no idea, I repeat... no idea, what is going on with the clubs detailed finances.... you can't even reach a consensus on where the funding is from... however, if people believe that a man who has worked for and was the right hand man of ML for much of his life, has spontaneously adopted the opposite philosophy of that career in the accumulation of debt (loans we can't afford as you suggest) then I would suggest you are wrong.

 

that is my opinion, people forget that we posted a profit at the start of last season, had a net spend of 3m under Adkins to get to the pre and have accessed 2 huge TV deals with a small and modest wage squad. on top of that, ftp prevents the family/trust from underwriting substantial losses so we have always been run with that on the horizon by people whose lifes philosophy has been to avoid accumulating debt in business.

 

in addition, I was responding to the comments regarding parking charges indication the club is in financial trouble as merely indicating the "maximising of revenue streams" ....

 

now I won't "slate you" in return.... but considering you know jack and "hate to slate fellow fans", you can be awfully rude when you want.

 

also, thank you for proving my point... this thread is hysterical, grown men who know very little on the subject shouting down others with a differing opinion.

 

my 2 sense is that their is very little to indicate financial trouble at the club, if we were in debt then Morgan, shaw etc would not still be here... and you will see far more about the clubs financial plans come January and any outgoing business (lack of) that we do.

 

as for the family, I suspect that those talks were mostly PR for Nicola, the family etc and over further development of training ground possibly stadium also. don't see the issue with the club securing a loan to release funds earlier than otherwise.... why don't you all contemplate what it will be used for instead?

 

Now that lot is utter tosh

[Saint_clark]

Now that lot is utter tosh

 

No need for that, he's only giving his 2 sense.

[trousers]

we are still receiving funding from our benefactors...

 

Source?

[Tokyo-Saint]

No need for that, he's only giving his 2 sense.

 

How many sense in the dollar these days?

[Gemmel]

No need for that, he's only giving his 2 sense.

 

Which is complete drivel - I tried to be polite and got a mouthful.

 

Maximising revenue by taking a loan :)

 

To aid the FFP :) :)

 

Hysterical reaction - Where ????????? :) :)

[NickG]

Nope, but we can make judgements based on the evidence available. And the most likely scenario at the moment is that funding from the Liebherrs is slowly being pulled or has been pulled altogether.

There was a rumour when Markus passed away that he left a "trust fund" of sorts for the club, this would also tie into it. It's not a bad thing - it shows that clubs at this level CAN be self sustaining, although it only works for us because we have no huge mortgages to pay on stadiums, no shareholders to pay out to etc.

 

I would say you are wrong and most likely scenario is they are still investing.

 

Source, the club matter of weeks ago. Appreciate not crystal clear but doesn't sound at all like your view;

 

 

 

I am pleased that this matter is now resolved."

Nicola Cortese

Southampton Football Club is pleased to announce that the Executive Chairman, Nicola Cortese, and the owner of the Club, Katharina Liebherr, yesterday concluded their regular strategy review for the Club and signed off on plans for the Club's continued development.

 

Commenting on the Agreement, Nicola Cortese said:

 

"We are now in a position to move forward with our ambitious plans for the Club and I would like to thank Katharina for the very helpful manner in which she approached our talks about long term strategy. I am pleased that this matter is now resolved

[Nolan]

I always thought these things were about offsetting tax for guaranteed income....

[Gemmel]

I would say you are wrong and most likely scenario is they are still investing.

 

Source, the club matter of weeks ago. Appreciate not crystal clear but doesn't sound at all like your view;

 

 

 

I am pleased that this matter is now resolved."

Nicola Cortese

Southampton Football Club is pleased to announce that the Executive Chairman, Nicola Cortese, and the owner of the Club, Katharina Liebherr, yesterday concluded their regular strategy review for the Club and signed off on plans for the Club's continued development.

 

Commenting on the Agreement, Nicola Cortese said:

 

"We are now in a position to move forward with our ambitious plans for the Club and I would like to thank Katharina for the very helpful manner in which she approached our talks about long term strategy. I am pleased that this matter is now resolved

 

Corteste got to run the club by himself- It wasnt about money, it was about somebody coming in to oversee him........ That is my take on it and my opinion.

 

A week later, there is a registered reduction in share captial statement issued - typically a vehicle for providing a return ...... Oh and a statement of solvency.

 

Now there is a new loan............. One of the ones that Cortese scoffed at other clubs for doing, which he has now done in two consecutive years and against everything that was said when Markus first took over.

 

I have absolutely no doubt we are solvent and and trading within our means, but Vibrac are super expensive....... To be doing this for tax purposes, simply doesnt stack up.

 

It would be a brave man that put his house on the fact that the liebheers are still financially supporting us after they cashed out in (33 million) we have taken two loans, issued a statement of solvency and a reduction in share captial...... when everything out there suggest they are not.

 

I have no issue in being self funding it appears others do.

[Nolan]

Corteste got to run the club by himself- It wasnt about money, it was about somebody coming in to oversee him........ That is my take on it and my opinion.

 

A week later, there is a registered reduction in share captial statement issued - typically a vehicle for providing a return ...... Oh and a statement of solvency.

 

Now there is a new loan............. One of the ones that Cortese scoffed at other clubs for doing, which he has now done in two consecutive years and against everything that was said when Markus first took over.

 

I have absolutely no doubt we are solvent and and trading within our means, but Vibrac are super expensive....... To be doing this for tax purposes, simply doesnt stack up.

 

It would be a brave man that put his house on the fact that the liebheers are still financially supporting us after they cashed out in (33 million) we have taken two loans, issued a statement of solvency and a reduction in share captial...... when everything out there suggest they are not.

 

I have no issue in being self funding it appears others do.

 

Speculatively speaking:-

 

What if they're not ridiculously expensive and just shown to be on documents? isn't British business tax offset against the cost of loans? isn't the British Virgin Islands a tax haven?

[Torres]

Not to mention we are not being run by arms dealers, child maimers, pension thieves, non-existent sheiks, crooks and morons.

 

Quite.