Johnny Bognor Posted 1 December, 2015 Share Posted 1 December, 2015 (edited) Despite all the hoohah and drama in the media actual polling figures for Labour are barely changed, slightly up under Corbyn in fact. The Tory lead has extended a bit, but thats because of a drop in support for the LDs and UKIP, not Labour. Corbyn is presenting a an alternative vision to that of the Conservatives. Surely that is just as effective opposition as cheese paring 1 degree differences on policy. He may be presenting an alternative, but if you look at the reactions of his MP's, can you hand on heart say this is good for the Labour party? Does a free reign mean making concessions on cuts and tax credits? It was a 'good' political manouvre, brought about by favourable conditions. Had the forecasts been less favourable, he would have pressed ahead. The Tories have a majority. End of. Its a fact of life in majoritarian systems that governments generally don't need to listen to the opposition. An effective Labour party might enrich the debate but its strict political power is nada. Governing parties have more to fear from their own backbenches. And as far as enriching the debate, there are multiple ways in which this happens in an established democracy anyway -none of which will be obvious to the simpletons on here who appear to measure performance against the quality of an opposition leader's #bantz on PMQs. Dare I say it, the SNP's electoral success -as well as Corbyn's victory- has crystallized in Tories' minds the fact that there is clear opposition to austerity in the country, and combined with Osborne's instinctive sensitivity to public opinion, induced some flexibility, albeit at the very, very margins. Corbyn's mandate to be Leader of the Opposition comes from two separate elements: 1. He was elected leader of the Labour Party 2. Labour won the second-highest number of seats in the General Election. Strange how Corbyn talks a lot about the first part, but doesn't dwell on the second. That's because Labour only got as many seats as they did because they were standing on a more moderate platform. If they had been standing on Corbyn's platform, would you honestly see them as having as many seats? To have any chance of power and making a real difference, you have to win the middle ground. Surely socialism-light is more palletable to the populus rather than an anti-west anti-capitalist anti-establishment pro-hypocricy protest party? A strong opposition gives real choice at the ballot box. I cannot see Corbyn ever winning under any condition. Stick David Milliband in and the tories will have a real battle at the next election... Edited 1 December, 2015 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 1 December, 2015 Share Posted 1 December, 2015 He may be presenting an alternative, but if you look at the reactions of his MP's, can you hand on heart say this is good for the Labour party? A strong opposition gives real choice at the ballot box. I cannot see Corbyn ever winning under any condition. Stick David Milliband in and the tories will have a real battle at the next election... He is a left wing leader who has inherited a parliamentary party of centrist career politicians. I'd be happy to see many cleared out and replaced with more free thinkers and diversity of opinion. Like many of the electorate Ive been gung ho in the past but the experiences of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya have changed that perspective. Im much more sceptical of the 'surgical strike, no civilians get hurt, quick in and get the boys home' than previously. I've never before really questioned the value of the independent nuclear deterrent, and now I am. What is the point of bombing Raqqa if Turkey is buying their oil and shipping them arms? I suspect Corbyn is more in tune with many voters than you believe. Miliband is plan B. It would always have been too awkward for Miliband D to replace Miliband E. Give Corbyn a chance, see what kind of fist he makes of it, knowing Miliband is ready to take over, if necessary, well before the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 1 December, 2015 Share Posted 1 December, 2015 (edited) God , I hope I'm not turning into some sort of leftie or even a pinko , but I find myself in agreement with George Galloway again. He said yesterday that Corbyn needs to confront his shadow cabinet & plp sometime and there won't be a better subject to make a stance over than bombing Syria . It was very easy for the pro interventionists to vote against (Cameron hasn't " made the case", the UN resolution is too wooly, there's no post conflict plan ) and in normal political times they would . However, they will continue to rebel on issue after issue to make Jezzas leadership untenable . With this issue he has more public support than most others , even people like Peter Hitchens are against it, but also an issue that people who are opposed to Corbyns stance will still credit him with sticking to his convictions and being authentic. Its quite hard to equate voting against this motion with being a leftie loon opposed to British values . Because Corbyn has bottled this one and given the shadow cabinet a free vote ,George mantains when he does grasp the nettle and face them down, it'll be on an issue ( most likely Trident ) that the voters will be in a massive majority against him and also it'll be an issue where he can be portrayed as unpatriotic or extreme and the plp as the reasonable ones. He should have forced resignations over this because they will come one day and that day will be more damaging to his leadership. Edited 1 December, 2015 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 2 December, 2015 Share Posted 2 December, 2015 Just heard Hillary Benn make his closing speech and it was pretty powerful and damning about his own leaders stance corbyn did not look happy had half the Labour stand up and clapping with the whole opposite side of the house incredible speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 more examples of this new, fair, friendly, inclusive politics Corbyn is bring in. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344070/Labour-s-traitor-list-Corbyn-tries-call-bullies-anti-war-supporters-plotting-kick-66-MPs-backed-bombing-ISIS-Syria.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 more examples of this new, fair, friendly, inclusive politics Corbyn is bring in. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344070/Labour-s-traitor-list-Corbyn-tries-call-bullies-anti-war-supporters-plotting-kick-66-MPs-backed-bombing-ISIS-Syria.html Has Cameron yet offerred an apology for his 'terrorist sympathiser' slander ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 Has Cameron yet offerred an apology for his 'terrorist sympathiser' slander ? does it matter. It was the arrival of Jezza that was going to bring an end to the pantomime of parliament. and all that stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 does it matter. It was the arrival of Jezza that was going to bring an end to the pantomime of parliament. and all that stuff I just wonder whether he extends that opinion to the handful of Tory MPs who voted against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 I just wonder whether he extends that opinion to the handful of Tory MPs who voted against. No, because he was only referring to the likes of Corbyn and McDonnell. (btw, I think Cameron was a bit of an arse for saying what he's reported to have said, but I also think its equally arseworthy ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 No, because he was only referring to the likes of Corbyn and McDonnell. (btw, I think Cameron was a bit of an arse for saying what he's reported to have said, but I also think its equally arseworthy ( Much like dubyas pronouncement that "anyone who isn't with us is against us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 3 December, 2015 Share Posted 3 December, 2015 Just watching " This week" & it looks to me that Labour have elected the wrong Corbyn . His brother talking complete sense on the man made global warming con and how this con is making the poor poorer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 It's a familiarly arrogant Corbynist fantasy that any bad news for the object of their affections is always down to the evil "MSM", and that the voters are like easily led sheep who unlike the brilliant and wise Corbynists themselves simply don't engage with alternative media at all, or read quite plentiful pro-Corbyn material in the "MSM". I suppose the impending disaster in Oldham will also be down to the dumb-**** voters fooled by the "MSM". And "his generally consensus/inclusive decision-making" on Syria? Corbyn has made it clear all along that his preference was to force the issue with a three-line whip. He backed down in the face of what a shadow minister - a "Tory-lite" no doubt - called a "riot" in this morning's shadow cabinet meeting. Keep the faith - you're going to need it if you're going to wrap yourself up against evidence like the YouGov poll and what will unfold on Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Just heard Hillary Benn make his closing speech and it was pretty powerful and damning about his own leaders stance corbyn did not look happy had half the Labour stand up and clapping with the whole opposite side of the house incredible speech Such integrity: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hilary-benn-shadow-foreign-secretary-says-labour-wont-back-air-strikes-on-syria-a6734651.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 The UKIP leaflets write themselves - tragedy when Bin Laden died, waving the little Red book in the commons, Ken's drivel from last night, a general refusal to support "our boys"/protect us/take on the enemy/etc. It's a pretty safe Labour seat so they'll still win, with the victory presented by the rabid Corbynistas as the greatest victory since Culloden. Well, I was right as usual. Reading the Guardian comments you'd think Labour had never won a by-election before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 (edited) So you chose not to show the picture of the Queen shaking the hand of Martin McGuiness at Windsor Castle just two hours before the Republican dissident is charged with 29 counts of murder over the Omagh Atrocity then? http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/6/28/1340905896075/Martin-McGuinness-and-the-008.jpg Edited 4 December, 2015 by sadoldgit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 "By the way Charles, did they ever find all the bits of your Great Uncle"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Such integrity: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hilary-benn-shadow-foreign-secretary-says-labour-wont-back-air-strikes-on-syria-a6734651.html I wonder what his Dad would have made of his speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 You'll have to give Jamie a hand on this one - inform him it's General Pinochet, not Captain Birdseye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Touché Guess Corbyn is not so much different from the establishment. Despite being trumpeted as such, a fair bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Touché Guess Corbyn is not so much different from the establishment. Despite being trumpeted as such, a fair bit The thing is though, Corbyn was right. We did have to talk to Sinn Fein / the IRA in order to bring peace. It just took the others longer to get around to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Touché Guess Corbyn is not so much different from the establishment. Despite being trumpeted as such, a fair bit Ah, good to see that you are still trying to get your dig in despite being taken down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Well, I was right as usual. Reading the Guardian comments you'd think Labour had never won a by-election before. I see Jezza , who has kept away from Oldham since turning up for the launch of the campaign , has rushed up there . You really do wonder if these Corbynistas know how elections work . Piling up votes in labour strongholds won't get you one extra seat . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 I see Jezza , who has kept away from Oldham since turning up for the launch of the campaign , has rushed up there . You really do wonder if these Corbynistas know how elections work . Piling up votes in labour strongholds won't get you one extra seat . It won't. The success was entirely down to a local candidate - and actually one who in Corbynist parlance is "Tory-lite scum" because Jim McMahon voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election. It's a brilliant result - and one more problem for the terrorist appeasing Corbynist leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 terrorist appeasing Corbynist leadership. Verbal, child massacring bombing apologist. Easy this juvenile and pretty trite name calling stuff isnt it? What the **** happened to you? you used to be sharp and insightful. Sorry shadow of that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 It won't. The success was entirely down to a local candidate - and actually one who in Corbynist parlance is "Tory-lite scum" because Jim McMahon voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election. It's a brilliant result - and one more problem for the terrorist appeasing Corbynist leadership. Labour loses - its Corbyn's fault; Labour wins - its got nothing to do with Corbyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 Verbal, child massacring bombing apologist. Easy this juvenile and pretty trite name calling stuff isnt it? What the **** happened to you? you used to be sharp and insightful. Sorry shadow of that now. I realise I'm offending your emotional love-bunny, and I worry of course that you take it badly. Please try not to take it so personally. I see that Left Unity - one of the far-left cheerleading gangs for Corbyn - are listing those Labour MPs who voted in favour of military action in Syria as "traitors" and "worse than ISIS". No doubt they've come to that conclusion because some of the senior members of this particular band of Corbyn supporters regard ISIS as - I quote - "a progressive force". This was actually a motion proposed at Left Unity conference recently. So yes, Corbynists are terrorist appeasers, but there actually are a select few who, by their own admission, are terrorist sympathisers. Again, buctootim, please don't take this personally - I know you're merely a shiny faced acolyte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 December, 2015 Share Posted 4 December, 2015 (edited) Labour loses - its Corbyn's fault; Labour wins - its got nothing to do with Corbyn. [emoji38] I think it's far more amusing that Twitter/Guardian comment section Corbynistas are dancing in the streets about the election of a moderate, centre left social democrat who voted for Liz Kendal in the leadership election. Just another red tory scumbag that the rabid twitterati can threaten to deselect. Edited 4 December, 2015 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 I think it's far more amusing that Twitter/Guardian comment section Corbynistas are dancing in the streets about the election of a moderate, centre left social democrat who voted for Liz Kendal in the leadership election. Just another red tory scumbag that the rabid twitterati can threaten to deselect. That may be true on the ground; but that's not how the contest was portrayed by the papers, including our resident media luvvie. The by-election was a referendum on Corbyn's leadership -and many were licking their predatory lips at the anticipated bloodbath. Do you seriously think that had Labour lost the by-election or had been handed a significantly smaller majority, anyone in the media would have been talking up the candidate's politics or claiming the result signalled a rejection of Blairite centrism and another tailwind for Corbynism? Nah didn't think so either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 That may be true on the ground; but that's not how the contest was portrayed by the papers, including our resident media luvvie. The by-election was a referendum on Corbyn's leadership -and many were licking their predatory lips at the anticipated bloodbath. Do you seriously think that had Labour lost the by-election or had been handed a significantly smaller majority, anyone in the media would have been talking up the candidate's politics or claiming the result signalled a rejection of Blairite centrism and another tailwind for Corbynism? Nah didn't think so either. I am happy to give Corbyn absolutely 100% of all the credit for Oldham. The victory was unanimously, unequivocally because of Corbyn. No question it was all down to Jeremy Corbyn. As long as the Corbynistas apportion the same of credit for any subsequent electoral performances, whichever the result, as unequivocally to Jeremy Corbyn that will be just great. Because they will do that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 I am happy to give Corbyn absolutely 100% of all the credit for Oldham. The victory was unanimously, unequivocally because of Corbyn. No question it was all down to Jeremy Corbyn. As long as the Corbynistas apportion the same of credit for any subsequent electoral performances, whichever the result, as unequivocally to Jeremy Corbyn that will be just great. Because they will do that, right? We're talking specifically about the media's coverage; and no doubt the likes of Rafael Behr and Verbal who are currently crying in their cornflakes (or is it muesli and organic yoghurt) will be quick to pounce if and when defeat comes. Alas squeezed between a sanctimonious commentariat and the wide-eyed corbynistas, there's a more complex truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 We're talking specifically about the media's coverage; and no doubt the likes of Rafael Behr and Verbal who are currently crying in their cornflakes (or is it muesli and organic yoghurt) will be quick to pounce if and when defeat comes. Alas squeezed between a sanctimonious commentariat and the wide-eyed corbynistas, there's a more complex truth If Corbyn had managed to lose a copper bottomed safe Labour seat then it would have been a man-bites-dog level of news story, so it would have been right for him to be slaughtered if that had happened. It was a mistake for any commentators to predict defeat because it obviously wasn't going to happen, as constituencies go it was a tap in. He tapped it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 If Corbyn had managed to lose a copper bottomed safe Labour seat then it would have been a man-bites-dog level of news story, so it would have been right for him to be slaughtered if that had happened. It was a mistake for any commentators to predict defeat because it obviously wasn't going to happen, as constituencies go it was a tap in. He tapped it in. That's not how success was defined, though. The more serious critics were fully expecting to Labour to cling onto the seat; rather the knives were out for anything less than a solid majority, with many predicting it to be slashed by thousands. That it went up was far from a tap in, however you credit the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 That's not how success was defined, though. The more serious critics were fully expecting to Labour to cling onto the seat; rather the knives were out for anything less than a solid majority, with many predicting it to be slashed by thousands. That it went up was far from a tap in, however you credit the goal. Any commentator expecting anything other than a Labour win was a fool. What can't be avoided is the fact that he did not visit the constituency before and was not featured on the literature and reports from the door step suggested very little swing to Corbyn, mire likely the opposite. But as I said I am happy to give him all the credit for him smashing the back of the net. He will have bigger challenges to come. Let's see if the Corbynistas ever view a set back for the party as being ever anything to do with their leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 5 December, 2015 Share Posted 5 December, 2015 He is a left wing leader who has inherited a parliamentary party of centrist career politicians. I'd be happy to see many cleared out and replaced with more free thinkers and diversity of opinion. Like many of the electorate Ive been gung ho in the past but the experiences of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya have changed that perspective. Im much more sceptical of the 'surgical strike, no civilians get hurt, quick in and get the boys home' than previously. I've never before really questioned the value of the independent nuclear deterrent, and now I am. What is the point of bombing Raqqa if Turkey is buying their oil and shipping them arms? I suspect Corbyn is more in tune with many voters than you believe. Miliband is plan B. It would always have been too awkward for Miliband D to replace Miliband E. Give Corbyn a chance, see what kind of fist he makes of it, knowing Miliband is ready to take over, if necessary, well before the election.thats a sign of getting older and wiser and i agree i,m fed up with career politicians and has i voted tory at the last 2 elections,even i could see the media biast was terrible that i pay lip service to the newspapers today,i think corbyn is breath of fresh air and don,t think he is the guy to lead them in to the next election,but i expect he is laying the ground for a younger succesor to take over..the real news was how those loonies ukip failed to make any headway in a working class seat and decided to cry like babies and play the usual racist card again ,despite loseing by more than 11,ooo votes , and despite them saying they were close to winning and the so called peoples party . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2015 Share Posted 6 December, 2015 talk of lefties with corbyn in charge http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/05/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-self-righteous-left-wallows-in-cruelty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 6 December, 2015 Share Posted 6 December, 2015 talk of lefties with corbyn in charge http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/05/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-self-righteous-left-wallows-in-cruelty Verbal's hero should be writing for the Times and the Sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 8 December, 2015 Share Posted 8 December, 2015 talk of lefties with corbyn in charge http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/05/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-self-righteous-left-wallows-in-cruelty What a load of old ******, you can't blame Corbyn because a few loons send death threats or post crap on Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 9 December, 2015 Share Posted 9 December, 2015 Ian Lavery is now in the shadow cabinet Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 (edited) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3354524/Jeremy-Corbyn-pleas-fraudster-stay-jail-Christmas.html Jezza proves he really is a man of the people Edited 10 December, 2015 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3354524/Jeremy-Corbyn-pleas-fraudster-stay-jail-Christmas.html Jezza proves he really is a man of the people He really is the gift that keeps on giving. No doubt this will be entirely the fault of the evil media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 The bloke is a complete f*ck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3354524/Jeremy-Corbyn-pleas-fraudster-stay-jail-Christmas.html Jezza proves he really is a man of the people Jeremy Christ, that's appalling. After jokingly quoting the "difficult" socialist leader Enver Hoxha yesterday, he's playing a blinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 Jeremy Christ, that's appalling. I think you'll find its Jesus, or possibly Jebus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 10 December, 2015 Share Posted 10 December, 2015 I think you'll find its Jesus, or possibly Jebus. I read that story and thought the Telegraph had to be making it up. But no - it's actually worse! Proceeds from the fraud were used to fund terrorism in Syria. Jeremy Christ on a bike!! http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/10/terror-suspect-scammers-elderly-savings-fraud-syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 And so it goes on. Today's speciality: going to the Christmas party of a supposedly anti-war pressure group, the heavily Trotskyist-compromised Stop the West Coalition, which ran a call to arms [sic] in 2014 with the headline: "Time to go to war with Israel as the only path to peace in the middle East". This piece was published while Corbyn actually led the organisation. It has, of course, been shamefacedly taken down but can be found here, along with two other quietly buried gems: http://www.buzzfeed.com/sirajdatoo/stop-the-war-take-down-a-third-article-from-its-website?utm_term=.kgqwNDOvM#.jmNza073l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Are Corbynites the same as Corbynistas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Are Corbynites the same as Corbynistas? Corbynistas think Corbynites are rabid fundamentalist lunatics while Corbynites think Corbynistas are lily livered apologists. They both agree on one thing, though. They all hate the Corbynettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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