Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Weston Super Saint]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He was specifically speaking about immigration quotas, but also seems to have fallen into the classic 'leaver' trap of linking the ECHR with the EU.

Not sure France could leave the ECJ without also leaving the EU...

[Lord Duckhunter]

17 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He was specifically speaking about immigration quotas, but also seems to have fallen into the classic 'leaver' trap of linking the ECHR with the EU.

He has. The trap that the UK Euro fanatics did for years, particularly perfected by Little Johnie Major & Call me Dave. Trying to con the electorate into thinking they’re not a raging federalist. Cameron did it for years, how many times did he make out he was pulling out of the ECHR, safe in the knowledge he wouldn’t, but that voters would consider him Euro sceptic. It’s all about perception, but ends up eroding support for The EU

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure France could leave the ECJ without also leaving the EU...

He isn't advocating either, just suggesting a re-alignment of the boundaries between French and EU legislation on non-EU immigration. It is just pandering to the xenophobic element of the right wing of French politics.

Edited 10 September, 2021 by badgerx16

[trousers]

Given leaving the EU was obviously the wrong thing to do, are we at least all agreed that any party standing on a 'rejoin the EU' ticket at the next general election would walk it? 

(apologies to my regular viewers for posting something a bit different to usual on this thread)

Edited 10 September, 2021 by trousers

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

Given leaving the EU was obviously the wrong thing to do, are we at least all agreed that any party standing on a 'rejoin the EU' ticket at the next general election would walk it? 

(apologies to my regular viewers for posting something a bit different to usual on this thread)

No, because rejoining would mean accepting all the requirements of membership that we had previously got exemptions for, such as fully free movement and joining the Eurozone.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No, because rejoining would mean accepting all the requirements of membership that we had previously got exemptions for, such as fully free movement and joining the Eurozone.

Surely anyone selling the virtues of the EU would want all the requirements of EU membership including free movement and the Eurozone...

[aintforever]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No, because rejoining would mean accepting all the requirements of membership that we had previously got exemptions for, such as fully free movement and joining the Eurozone.

Surely that is something that would be negotiated? If Brexit has a similar negative effect on EU countries then it is in everyone's interest to find a solution. It all depends on how it effects us compared to them, obviously if they thrive and we are in a world of shit we would have to accept whatever they ask.

[CB Fry]

46 minutes ago, trousers said:

Given leaving the EU was obviously the wrong thing to do, are we at least all agreed that any party standing on a 'rejoin the EU' ticket at the next general election would walk it? 

(apologies to my regular viewers for posting something a bit different to usual on this thread)

Stick to your usual stuff.

[Whitey Grandad]

47 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No, because rejoining would mean accepting all the requirements of membership that we had previously got exemptions for, such as fully free movement and joining the Eurozone.

It is not and never has been fully free movement.

[trousers]

11 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Stick to your usual stuff.

[buctootim]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

To be fair, it's clear evidence that a majority of the 1653 people that were polled by YouGov on behalf of The Times have regret (although we don't actually know how they originally voted and they could all be remain voters, or conversely all leave voters).

As before the referendum, all the polls suggested an overwhelming victory for the Remain campaign, yet we all know the actual result.

I suspect that quite a lot of people who voted leave aren't really the target demographic for The Times.

Sigh. You do know what random sampling is, that it is done by professional statisticians and that the Times don't just choose people from their readership? Please tell me you know that. 

[CB Fry]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As before the referendum, all the polls suggested an overwhelming victory for the Remain campaign, yet we all know the actual result.

"All the polls" did not suggest an "overwhelming victory" for the Remain campaign.

[Warriorsaint]

5 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

The clue is in the title, this is the Brexit - post match reaction thread.

I am just highlighting what appears to be happening with the consequences of Brexit. It is a post Brexit thread. It seems to easy for brexiters to put their head in the sand and pretend it’s all sunny uplands. 

The effects of Brexit affect my pocket and my rights and it was forced upon me and the 3/4 of the country who didn’t vote for it.

If you don’t like being reminded about it in a brexit thread don’t engage. That’s freedom right there.

[badgerx16]

31 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It is not and never has been fully free movement.

Perhaps, but it would be more open than we previously had.

[Weston Super Saint]

19 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Sigh. You do know what random sampling is, that it is done by professional statisticians and that the Times don't just choose people from their readership? Please tell me you know that. 

Sigh.  Reverted back to type so soon with your "you're far too stupid to understand" argument.

I understand what random sampling is, do you?

In the link I posted, the data gathered by YouGov has the following caveats :

Quote

YouGov weights GB political surveys by (1) age interlocked with gender and education, (2) political attention (3) social grade (4) 2019 recalled vote interlocked with region and (5) EU referendum recalled vote. Weighting targets are YouGov estimates, data sources used in the calculation of targets are cited below. General election voting intention figures are additionally weighted by likelihood to vote. The poll was carried out online.

They then go on to confirm that their samples are based on the 'voting' preferences for the country and to be fair, they do a fairly good job of matching the percentages.

However, as I'm sure you are already aware, given that you brought the subject up, a 'random sampling' is an unbiased sampling of the TOTAL POPULATION. Given that the 'total population' includes many millions of people who aren't eligible to vote, the YouGov poll that you linked to is NOT an example of 'random sampling' as it is purely based on the 'voting population'.

[CB Fry]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Sigh.  Reverted back to type so soon with your "you're far too stupid to understand" argument.

I understand what random sampling is, do you?

In the link I posted, the data gathered by YouGov has the following caveats :

They then go on to confirm that their samples are based on the 'voting' preferences for the country and to be fair, they do a fairly good job of matching the percentages.

However, as I'm sure you are already aware, given that you brought the subject up, a 'random sampling' is an unbiased sampling of the TOTAL POPULATION. Given that the 'total population' includes many millions of people who aren't eligible to vote, the YouGov poll that you linked to is NOT an example of 'random sampling' as it is purely based on the 'voting population'.

You're far too stupid to understand.

[Weston Super Saint]

31 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

"All the polls" did not suggest an "overwhelming victory" for the Remain campaign.

As you can see in the link, the polling results in general in the run up to the referendum (certainly from the beginning of 2015 right up until the day before the vote) predicted a remain win (although I am more than happy to admit that 'overwhelming victory' is a tabloid-esque exaggeration and will happily withdraw it!).

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

You're far too stupid to understand.

I'll put it in a few words for you, so you can try....

'Total Population' is different to 'voting population'.

[Warriorsaint]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Given leaving the EU was obviously the wrong thing to do, are we at least all agreed that any party standing on a 'rejoin the EU' ticket at the next general election would walk it? 

(apologies to my regular viewers for posting something a bit different to usual on this thread)

I agree with Badger here. The horse has  bolted and renegotiation would not allow us the, frankly amazing, exemptions we had previously.

The right wing will never accept their folly and accept responsibility for the lies they perpetrated, so we are in the position we are in.

 I am angry at what happened and know in my heart it was a dreadful mistake this country made. I still haven’t come to terms with it which probably shows in my posts.

 I think a fundamental mind shift is the only way move forward. I think a breakup of the UK is inevitable. I think the three junior partners in the union will eventually break free and become more progressive nations that accept their part as small parts in cooperation with other nations in an internationalist mindset.

 I fear England will go through a rather difficult rebirth. Either it will throw off its imperialist exceptionalism past and become a new outward looking nation or double down on its perception that it is better than other countries and retains its monarchy, elites and conservative instincts. 

I know which I hope for but can’t see which way it will go.

It is only my perception and I know many will see it entirely different but there is a clear direction of travel in my eyes and anyone who thinks that the UK is a happy union and getting closer together is deluded. In my eyes Brexit has hastened this and I should be happy in this regard but I’m not. Quite a contradiction I know. Just my honest opinion.

Honest debate is quite welcome. I’m really interested if idealogical brexiters are completely oblivious to this point of view. Can we accept that rejoinders are completely sincere in that they feel that leaving the EU is a retrogressive step and if you are believer in the UK it’s is more secure as an entity inside the EU influencing decision making rather than outside pissing in.

Places helmet on.

[Whitey Grandad]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps, but it would be more open than we previously had.

It was only as open as it was because the UK couldn't be bothered to close it.

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'll put it in a few words for you, so you can try....

'Total Population' is different to 'voting population'.

Edit-Can't be bothered. You're too stupid to understand it.

Edited 10 September, 2021 by CB Fry

[buctootim]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As you can see in the link, the polling results in general in the run up to the referendum (certainly from the beginning of 2015 right up until the day before the vote) predicted a remain win (although I am more than happy to admit that 'overwhelming victory' is a tabloid-esque exaggeration and will happily withdraw it!).

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Your own link proves you wrong. This stuff really isn't hard, its just counting. The polls in months in the run up to the referendum were evenly split 

 

Edited 10 September, 2021 by buctootim

[Warriorsaint]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Your own link proves you wrong. This stuff really isn't hard, its just counting. The polls in months in the run up to the referendum were evenly split 

 

Great recap of polls. Shows how much of a division there is. Shows that a decision such as this should have never had a referendum in the first place.

 I don’t know if a division like this can be healed in the short term.

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Great recap of polls. Shows how much of a division there is. Shows that a decision such as this should have never had a referendum in the first place.

 

Should never have been a straight majority decision. If the same rules were applied to the Brexit vote as to the Welsh and Scottish devolution referenda then it would never have passed: both of those required that 40% of the electorate had to vote in favour - in the case of the Scottish devolution vote there was  51% majority of votes cast that were in favour, but there was a turnout of only slightly over 60%, which meant that the 40% threshold was not met. If the same rule had been applied to the Brexit vote, as the SNP wanted, the vote would have failed as it only gained the votes of 37% of the electorate.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The old Ken Clarke solution. Can’t win the vote, don’t have one.
 

The people’s representatives set the rules for the vote, they could have insisted on anything & were remain dominant. The reason they allowed a vote & a straight 50% + 1. Was simple, they thought they’d win it and put Nigel back in his box. As Anna Subry later cried “ I wouldn’t have voted for a referendum if I’d known we’d lose”. Who cares about democracy, the EU love in trumps that. 

[Warriorsaint]

14 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The old Ken Clarke solution. Can’t win the vote, don’t have one.
 

The people’s representatives set the rules for the vote, they could have insisted on anything & were remain dominant. The reason they allowed a vote & a straight 50% + 1. Was simple, they thought they’d win it and put Nigel back in his box. As Anna Subry later cried “ I wouldn’t have voted for a referendum if I’d known we’d lose”. Who cares about democracy, the EU love in trumps that. 

It was an advisory vote. Didn’t have to be implemented.

[CB Fry]

25 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

It was an advisory vote. Didn’t have to be implemented.

Jesus Christ just give it a fucking rest.

[Warriorsaint]

57 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Jesus Christ just give it a fucking rest.

Is everything ok? Don’t believe we’ve had a communication before.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

It was an advisory vote. Didn’t have to be implemented.

No it didn’t, we have the Remain dominated Parliament to thank for that. 
 

 

[Warriorsaint]

10 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No it didn’t, we have the Remain dominated Parliament to thank for that. 
 

 

For once I agree with you. Somehow the ERG seemed to exert control over parliament and I wholly hold the Liberal Democrat’s to blame for political games which led to a absolute shambles of a deal and that allowed Boris fucking Johnson to be the leader of the country negotiating terms. Fucking joke.

[Warriorsaint]

 

[Weston Super Saint]

15 hours ago, buctootim said:

Your own link proves you wrong. This stuff really isn't hard, its just counting. The polls in months in the run up to the referendum were evenly split 

 

 

Bless you for trying.  As I stated in my post "certainly from the beginning of 2015 right up until the day before the vote" but nice to see you've chosen a tiny snippet of the polls mainly from the 2 months before the vote to prove your point about counting 

From the beginning of 2015 up until the referendum (a timescale that has a little more meaning during the campaigning for the vote!), there were 203 polls in total. 137 predicted a remain win and 66 predicted a leave win (28 of those were recording in May and June 2016).  So 67% of the polls in the time period I quoted backed the remain campaign.  

As you point out, this stuff isn't hard, its just counting (and reading what was posted).

 

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Bless you for trying.  As I stated in my post "certainly from the beginning of 2015 right up until the day before the vote" but nice to see you've chosen a tiny snippet of the polls mainly from the 2 months before the vote to prove your point about counting 

From the beginning of 2015 up until the referendum (a timescale that has a little more meaning during the campaigning for the vote!), there were 203 polls in total. 137 predicted a remain win and 66 predicted a leave win (28 of those were recording in May and June 2016).  So 67% of the polls in the time period I quoted backed the remain campaign.  

As you point out, this stuff isn't hard, its just counting (and reading what was posted).

 

So not "all the polls" either. Good old piggy. 

#absolute mess.

[Warriorsaint]

 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

 

That promise was never going to happen, the maths didn't add up:

The big porky pie on the side of the bus said  we would save £350m a week, ( a blatant fib to start with), and should give it to the NHS instead, ( at least that was the implication they wanted us to make ). This was, in any case, a gross figure and ignored any funds coming the other way, such as the regional subsidy to Cornwall. If all the reciprocal monies were to be directly matched after Brexit, there would have been far less of a headline figure for their headline grabbing bullshit pledge;

"Once we have accounted for and matched regional funds and industry sector subsidies, whatever is left can go to the NHS" doesn't have such an impact.

Edited 11 September, 2021 by badgerx16

[Lord Duckhunter]

13 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

For once I agree with you. Somehow the ERG seemed to exert control over parliament and I wholly hold the Liberal Democrat’s to blame for political games which led to a absolute shambles of a deal and that allowed Boris fucking Johnson to be the leader of the country negotiating terms. Fucking joke.

The supposedly highly intelligent Remain brains turned out to be a bunch of complete fuckwits. Amazing isn’t it, a complete and utter shitstorm from the great and the good. Time after time the “thick” leavers ran rings round them. Nigel managed to out smart them despite not winning a single seat (save a couple of sitting defections). And we’re supposed to listen to these chumps?
 

From the day Cameron pretended he wanted a vote (safe in the knowledge The Lib Dem’s would veto it in the next coalition/hung Parliament) they fucked up. The sham “renegotiation”, the campaign which seemed  based on a  “Europe is bad, but leaving is worse” strategy. Not accepting Mrs Mays turd. Then unbelievably giving the Boris the election he wanted, in the misguided belief people actually didn’t want Brexit. These people couldn’t run a bath, and they’re the “clever” ones. Lol. Bunch of fucking helmets. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

That promise was never going to happen, the maths didn't add up:

The big porky pie on the side of the bus said  we would save £350m a week, ( a blatant fib to start with), and should give it to the NHS instead, ( at least that was the implication they wanted us to make ). This was, in any case, a gross figure and ignored any funds coming the other way, such as the regional subsidy to Cornwall. If all the reciprocal monies were to be directly matched after Brexit, there would have been far less of a headline figure for their headline grabbing bullshit pledge;

"Once we have accounted for and matched regional funds and industry sector subsidies, whatever is left can go to the NHS" doesn't have such an impact.

Don’t forget the leavers hate being called thick cunts. How about gullible fuckers?

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

That promise was never going to happen, the maths didn't add up:

The big porky pie on the side of the bus said  we would save £350m a week, ( a blatant fib to start with), and should give it to the NHS instead, ( at least that was the implication they wanted us to make ). This was, in any case, a gross figure and ignored any funds coming the other way, such as the regional subsidy to Cornwall. If all the reciprocal monies were to be directly matched after Brexit, there would have been far less of a headline figure for their headline grabbing bullshit pledge;

"Once we have accounted for and matched regional funds and industry sector subsidies, whatever is left can go to the NHS" doesn't have such an impact.

Personally I think that slogan was idiotic and as you correctly state it was a gross figure anyway. It didn't influence my vote in the slightest though. 

[Warriorsaint]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The supposedly highly intelligent Remain brains turned out to be a bunch of complete fuckwits. Amazing isn’t it, a complete and utter shitstorm from the great and the good. Time after time the “thick” leavers ran rings round them. Nigel managed to out smart them despite not winning a single seat (save a couple of sitting defections). And we’re supposed to listen to these chumps?
 

From the day Cameron pretended he wanted a vote (safe in the knowledge The Lib Dem’s would veto it in the next coalition/hung Parliament) they fucked up. The sham “renegotiation”, the campaign which seemed  based on a  “Europe is bad, but leaving is worse” strategy. Not accepting Mrs Mays turd. Then unbelievably giving the Boris the election he wanted, in the misguided belief people actually didn’t want Brexit. These people couldn’t run a bath, and they’re the “clever” ones. Lol. Bunch of fucking helmets. 

I will never agree with your politics. I think we can agree this generation of politicians are very poor and not a patch on previous politicians of all shades.

The lack of integrity in this lot is staggering and I include Oswald Farage in that.

There will be a reckoning and History will not be kind.

[egg]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

Don’t forget the leavers hate being called thick cunts. How about gullible fuckers?

And don't forget the remainers hate being called smug sanctimonious cunts. Frankly, the gloating and name calling around the shit show that was/is brexit is pathetic. 

[Warriorsaint]

2 hours ago, egg said:

And don't forget the remainers hate being called smug sanctimonious cunts. Frankly, the gloating and name calling around the shit show that was/is brexit is pathetic. 

Im much more in the smug cunt than the gullible fucker corner thankfully lol 😂 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Im much more in the smug cunt than the gullible fucker corner thankfully lol 😂 

Yep, and when you've figured out how the pathetic name calling and gloating will make the shit show any less of a shit show, do let us know. 

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep, and when you've figured out how the pathetic name calling and gloating will make the shit show any less of a shit show, do let us know. 

Nope theres no way that can happen. The only way is for all to recognise that Brexit was an almighty mistake and then division can begin to be healed. All we hear is project fear from brexisters. 
 

“Sovrinty” doesn’t pay wages or put food on the table

[egg]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

Nope theres no way that can happen. The only way is for all to recognise that Brexit was an almighty mistake and then division can begin to be healed. All we hear is project fear from brexisters. 
 

“Sovrinty” doesn’t pay wages or put food on the table

Utter bollox. People simply need to accept that we are where we are and get on with it. Moaning, gloating, bitching, petty name calling ain't going to change a thing. 

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Utter bollox. People simply need to accept that we are where we are and get on with it. Moaning, gloating, bitching, petty name calling ain't going to change a thing. 

No person who voted to remain will accept their jobs, freedoms, rights being diminished until we rejoin. All these were removed without our consent. Why the hell should we accept that?

[egg]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

No person who voted to remain will accept their jobs, freedoms, rights being diminished until we rejoin. All these were removed without our consent. Why the hell should we accept that?

Oh the smugness is all part of a rejoin campaign. Good luck with that one mate. 

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, egg said:

Oh the smugness is all part of a rejoin campaign. Good luck with that one mate. 

Its a long path granted. No need for the sneering. We got a good point today btw.

[Warriorsaint]

Off to watch the All Ireland now. Take a breath.

Mayo for the Sam Maguire

Edited 11 September, 2021 by Warriorsaint

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

No person who voted to remain will accept their jobs, freedoms, rights being diminished until we rejoin. All these were removed without our consent. Why the hell should we accept that?

Whatever the perceived flaws of the referendum campaign, no matter how betrayed you feel by the result, we have left the EU, and no matter how angry you allow yourself to get you cannot alter that fact ( And we won't be rejoining ).

Any vote ends up with one side losing, that's the game, hence we have a Brexit that neither you nor I supported, and we have a Government that neither you nor I voted for. Life goes on, make the most of it, and view the future with a degree, however small, of optimism - the alternative will only drive you to misery and high blood pressure.

Edited 11 September, 2021 by badgerx16

[egg]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Whatever the perceived flaws of the referendum campaign, no matter how betrayed you feel by the result, we have left the EU, and no matter how angry you allow yourself to get you cannot alter that fact ( And we won't be rejoining ).

Any vote ends up with one side losing, that's the game, hence we have a Brexit that neither you nor I supported, and we have a Government that neither you nor I voted for. Life goes on, make the most of it, and view the future with a degree, however small, of optimism - the alternative will only drive you to misery and high blood pressure.

Thank you for the more considered explanation of my thoughts. Whingeing, especially on footy forum to a bunch of strangers, is utterly futile.