Where are the goals coming from

[Saintsfan1976]

So poor attacking wise, how come we have not purchased Josh Sargent and Josh Murphy from Norwich and Skates respectively. We once again have wasted millions and no striker. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

This obviously means a lot to you as you’ve posted twice. 😉

We have two strikers that are less challenged vertically (Stewart and Downs), but they’re not starting probably for good reason(s). Thing is, it’s actually not the height of our strikers that’s a problem. If you’ve been paying attention we don’t create attacking moves very well and when we do we don’t convert chances too competently either. But the main issue is the manner in which we transition the ball forward - too slow and too predictable. Everything is re-cycled along the backline and out to full-backs trapped by an 11 man press. In short we’re too damned easy to defend against. Sort this out - get the ball forward quicker and more often to our strikers, get our forwards playing closer together and I’m sure we’ll see more goals and more games won.

[CSA96]

Josh Sargent's goal record at this level is not better than some of the options we already have on the books, he was absolutely crap at PL level and he has also missed a lot of time with injuries. His return at this level is Che Adams level - who was widely derided for not scoring as many as he should - but with more injury issues

I really do not get the obsession with him, especially given Norwich were looking for over £20m in order to let him go and nobody else in England was particularly interested in him

Edited yesterday at 09:23 by CSA96

[Osvaldorama]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Josh Sargent's goal record at this level is not better than some of the options we already have on the books, he was absolutely crap at PL level and he has also missed a lot of time with injuries. His return at this level is Che Adams level - who was widely derided for not scoring as many as he should - but with more injury issues

I really do not get the obsession with him, especially given Norwich were looking for £25m+ in order to let him go and nobody in England was particularly interested in him

This ^. 
 

We’d have been better off keeping Che to be honest. I thought it at the time. He was limited but at least he was good at holding up the ball and bringing others into play. 

We let him go and haven’t replaced him. Now we have no focal point so the ball never sticks.
 

Add on top our non-existent midfield and the ball just comes back at us in waves. Even against shite teams like Pompey. (Who were fucking shite btw. Just ran a lot.)

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Saintsfan1976 said:

So poor attacking wise, how come we have not purchased Josh Sargent and Josh Murphy from Norwich and Skates respectively. We once again have wasted millions and no striker. 

who have we wasted millions on?

[Turkish]

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, Saintsfan1976 said:

Josh Murphy

ah that prolific goalscorer.

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Josh Sargent's goal record at this level is not better than some of the options we already have on the books, he was absolutely crap at PL level and he has also missed a lot of time with injuries. His return at this level is Che Adams level - who was widely derided for not scoring as many as he should - but with more injury issues

I really do not get the obsession with him, especially given Norwich were looking for over £20m in order to let him go and nobody else in England was particularly interested in him

This. Its odd, truly bizarre. Was there even a link to him this summer but it seems like one that we HAD TO SIGN but didnt and the board have fucked up again. So strange

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

This ^. 
 

We’d have been better off keeping Che to be honest. I thought it at the time. He was limited but at least he was good at holding up the ball and bringing others into play. 

We let him go and haven’t replaced him. Now we have no focal point so the ball never sticks.

There are laws against taking hostages. He was a decent focal point but he’s not Drogba and didn’t do anything that Downs and Stewart aren’t capable of. Archer maybe not have the same physicality but his movement off the last man is good and his finishing better than Adams. If he does lead the line, we need to be playing the right balls at the right times, not just booting it at him from our own half.

[Osvaldorama]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

There are laws against taking hostages. He was a decent focal point but he’s not Drogba and didn’t do anything that Downs and Stewart aren’t capable of. Archer maybe not have the same physicality but his movement off the last man is good and his finishing better than Adams. If he does lead the line, we need to be playing the right balls at the right times, not just booting it at him from our own half.

Simply not true at all, based on the evidence. 
 

im yet to see either of these win an aerial duel and play in a winger. Che for all his faults was quite creative and good at getting us up the park. 
 

The point isn’t about keeping Che really, it’s about our shit recruitment and lack of a strategy. 

Edited yesterday at 09:45 by Osvaldorama

[RedArmy]

48 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

His return at this level is Che Adams level - who was widely derided for not scoring as many as he should

He was derided for not trying hard enough unless there was a transfer window open or soon to open. 
 

 

[Dusic]

Once we create more chances for them then our forwards will score more goals.

Simple but accurate representation of the problem.

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Once we create more chances for them then our forwards will score more goals.

Simple but accurate representation of the problem.

Unless I'm misremembering, I seem to recall seeing a stat recently which showed we currently / historically create more chances than a lot of teams, which would tend to suggest our problem is more to do with chance conversation rather than chance creation...?

Perhaps someone with their finger on the stats pulse could confirm or refute this.

Edited yesterday at 10:21 by trousers

[saintant]

26 minutes ago, trousers said:

Unless I'm misremembering, I seem to recall seeing a stat recently which showed we currently / historically create more chances than a lot of teams, which would tend to suggest our problem is more to do with chance conversation rather than chance creation...?

Perhaps someone with their finger on the stats pulse could confirm or refute this.

I think the chance creation stat per match might just have taken a bit of a dive on Sunday 🙂

Edited yesterday at 10:47 by saintant

[Greedyfly]

2 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

This obviously means a lot to you as you’ve posted twice. 😉

We have two strikers that are less challenged vertically (Stewart and Downs), but they’re not starting probably for good reason(s). Thing is, it’s actually not the height of our strikers that’s a problem. If you’ve been paying attention we don’t create attacking moves very well and when we do we don’t convert chances too competently either. But the main issue is the manner in which we transition the ball forward - too slow and too predictable. Everything is re-cycled along the backline and out to full-backs trapped by an 11 man press. In short we’re too damned easy to defend against. Sort this out - get the ball forward quicker and more often to our strikers, get our forwards playing closer together and I’m sure we’ll see more goals and more games won.

I have rewritten this response twice now, which I think highlights part of the issue for me.

 

Either a) we are trying to play quicker on the transition through quick passing and hitting on the break, in which case why did we put so much emphasis on wingers in the summer.  This strategy would assume that we see Archer as our no 9 (which is questionable IMO because he's not really very good) but we aren't really seeing this yet come to fruition.

 

or b) we are looking to utilise width and putting balls into the box but that would counteract using Archer as our no 9 because he's neither good in the air, or certainly on Sunday's showing, particularly good against strong CBs (basically all CBs).  So why are we starting every game with him up front and not Stewart (Downs is the answer to no questions it seems)?

 

Basically, to answer the OP - I am not really sure - presumably we are hoping to spread them out amongst the squad and decent players we did buy to offset the shite we have up front.

[swannymere]

Azaz and Archer will get goals, Azaz looks like he's currently on a different wavelength to the supply players, that will change after a few games and he'll then stick them in. 

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

This ^. 
 

We’d have been better off keeping Che to be honest. I thought it at the time. He was limited but at least he was good at holding up the ball and bringing others into play. 

We let him go and haven’t replaced him.

I thought we offered him a new deal but he decided to leave?

[saintant]

57 minutes ago, Greedyfly said:

I have rewritten this response twice now, which I think highlights part of the issue for me.

 

Either a) we are trying to play quicker on the transition through quick passing and hitting on the break, in which case why did we put so much emphasis on wingers in the summer.  This strategy would assume that we see Archer as our no 9 (which is questionable IMO because he's not really very good) but we aren't really seeing this yet come to fruition.

 

or b) we are looking to utilise width and putting balls into the box but that would counteract using Archer as our no 9 because he's neither good in the air, or certainly on Sunday's showing, particularly good against strong CBs (basically all CBs).  So why are we starting every game with him up front and not Stewart (Downs is the answer to no questions it seems)?

 

Basically, to answer the OP - I am not really sure - presumably we are hoping to spread them out amongst the squad and decent players we did buy to offset the shite we have up front.

I'd like to see the two wingers encouraged to regularly cut into the box and have a shot with Archer ready to pounce on anything that bounces off a defender or is pushed out by the keeper. It's no use them just sticking out wide and putting hopeful crosses over for a small striker so their contribution needs to include other things like getting to the byline and cutting back dangerous balls which again Archer needs to be sniffing out.

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, Greedyfly said:

I have rewritten this response twice now, which I think highlights part of the issue for me.

 

Either a) we are trying to play quicker on the transition through quick passing and hitting on the break, in which case why did we put so much emphasis on wingers in the summer.  This strategy would assume that we see Archer as our no 9 (which is questionable IMO because he's not really very good) but we aren't really seeing this yet come to fruition.

 

or b) we are looking to utilise width and putting balls into the box but that would counteract using Archer as our no 9 because he's neither good in the air, or certainly on Sunday's showing, particularly good against strong CBs (basically all CBs).  So why are we starting every game with him up front and not Stewart (Downs is the answer to no questions it seems)?

 

Basically, to answer the OP - I am not really sure - presumably we are hoping to spread them out amongst the squad and decent players we did buy to offset the shite we have up front.

I think the issue is the supply players - those who are supposed to feed the forwards don’t have a clue what system/process/tactics/whatever they’re supposed to be utilising. They all look like strangers and it makes you wonder what the hell they get up to in training. It certainly cannot be practicing inventive ways of transitioning the ball forwards and beating defensive lines. 

There’s some f-ing huge scars still hanging around it seems - Still has acknowledged this himself, but so far I’m not seeing any evidence that he’s found a way to overcome the problem. For me the core of the issue is the number of ‘scarred players’ still getting first dibs on the starter team sheet.

[Challenger]

Apparently our strikers are Championship " oven ready" and only need to turn up in order to smash this league.

[Doctoroncall]

55 minutes ago, saintant said:

I'd like to see the two wingers encouraged to regularly cut into the box and have a shot with Archer ready to pounce on anything that bounces off a defender or is pushed out by the keeper. It's no use them just sticking out wide and putting hopeful crosses over for a small striker so their contribution needs to include other things like getting to the byline and cutting back dangerous balls which again Archer needs to be sniffing out.

Depends if the wingers can get the ball in behind the defenders for Archer to run onto. Nice to have the choice but to do so, the transition needs to be faster so the defenders are playing catch up, currently most of the time moving the ball upfield is slow and the defenders are already set. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

32 minutes ago, Challenger said:

Apparently our strikers are Championship " oven ready" and only need to turn up in order to smash this league.

That's a relief. Has there been any news on when they're turning up? 🙂

Adams would easily be leading the line had he stayed. Clever SR have wasted a lot of money trying to replace a player they smugly thought they'd be getting shot of in their first summer window.

Sargent was an example of someone with some all round Adams-like attributes. A focal point, able to drop deep, lead the line, have a physical presence and get goals.

We went for the option of buying half a dozen forwards, each with one of those attributes. SR's belief that they would somehow transform into a single Anime Super Mega Striker have turned out to be unfounded.

The only plus there, being we don't have to flee Godzilla every couple of weeks, as it lumbers out of Portsmouth, it's natural home away from home.

[Osvaldorama]

Honestly, if the plan is to buy wingers and cross, we should have kept tall paul as well? 

Yes he was shite but he would fit the style more than Archer 

Nothing SR do ever seems to make sense 

[chivvy]

Doesn't seem a lot point hanging up crosses to the back post from the right with Ryan Frazer in our side either.

[Midfield_General]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

He was a decent focal point but he’s not Drogba and didn’t do anything that Downs and Stewart aren’t capable of. 

Che was far from perfect but scored 16 for us in the last season he played in the Championship. Do you honestly think Downs is getting 16 for us this season, based on what we’ve seen so far and him not even making the bench at the weekend? 

[Football Special]

42 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Che was far from perfect but scored 16 for us in the last season he played in the Championship. Do you honestly think Downs is getting 16 for us this season, based on what we’ve seen so far and him not even making the bench at the weekend? 

Never mind scoring more than Che Adams I'd be surprised if they score more than Sekou Mara 

[die Mannyschaft]

We scored 87 goal with RM, can we just replicate what we did in that season?

We already do the side to side, back and side, back , side, side we just need too pass a bit more look up and if opposition look bored to death then get a cross in quickly.

I really don't know why we haven't adopted Coventry and Bristol goal scoring tactics.

 

[Dusic]

8 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

We scored 87 goal with RM, can we just replicate what we did in that season?

We already do the side to side, back and side, back , side, side we just need too pass a bit more look up and if opposition look bored to death then get a cross in quickly.

I really don't know why we haven't adopted Coventry and Bristol goal scoring tactics.

 

The irony being that so far what Still needs to add is actually a little bit of Russball - more composure and patience on the ball to play forward in a much more considered and targeted way than we have seen so far.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

Che was far from perfect but scored 16 for us in the last season he played in the Championship. Do you honestly think Downs is getting 16 for us this season, based on what we’ve seen so far and him not even making the bench at the weekend? 

I think Downs, Stewart and Archer are more than capable of surpassing the 19 goals managed by Adams and Mara two years ago.

[Saint Fan CaM]

44 minutes ago, Dusic said:

The irony being that so far what Still needs to add is actually a little bit of Russball - more composure and patience on the ball to play forward in a much more considered and targeted way than we have seen so far.

What? The problem with Russball was not Russball as such. It was that the players at his disposal were barely good enough to utilise his tactics to get promoted and were certainly not good enough to do it in the Prem. Nothings changed - the squad is still not good enough. Still knows that, but does he have an alternative that’s effective.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

What? The problem with Russball was not Russball as such. It was that the players at his disposal were barely good enough to utilise his tactics to get promoted and were certainly not good enough to do it in the Prem. Nothings changed - the squad is still not good enough. Still knows that, but does he have an alternative that’s effective.

What's happening at Rangers shows that the issue with Russball was/is Russ using it regardless of the players at his disposal. 

The squad we had last year could have done better than it did, and this year's squad should be doing much better than it is. Sadly, Pompey's manager got a much better tune out of a much worse squad of players in Sunday, and that highlights to me that it's not a player issue. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

What's happening at Rangers shows that the issue with Russball was/is Russ using it regardless of the players at his disposal. 

The squad we had last year could have done better than it did, and this year's squad should be doing much better than it is. Sadly, Pompey's manager got a much better tune out of a much worse squad of players in Sunday, and that highlights to me that it's not a player issue. 

Oh don’t get me wrong, Russ is not exempt from blame. Comparing Rangers plight to Saints is not a simple direct correlation in my opinion, but it’s clear he’s not doing a great job and will leave plenty of scars if left in place.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Oh don’t get me wrong, Russ is not exempt from blame. Comparing Rangers plight to Saints is not a simple direct correlation in my opinion, but it’s clear he’s not doing a great job and will leave plenty of scars if left in place.

It shows he's clueless mate. 

Back to us, and the question. The squad is capable of much more than we're seeing, but the tactics aren't good. We're not pressing and aren't resistant to being pressed. We don't have much movement anywhere, especially between the lines. We're not getting the ball wide. The full backs aren't supporting or overlapping. We don't play though midfield, and have no grip on midfield. That's all aside of a little lad up top having the ball banged up to him, and nobody being around him. Etc. 

The short answer to the thread question is, from nowhere, if we carry on playing this way. 

[Turkish]

There has to be more to Will Still than this. You don’t get to be one of Europes highest rated young coaches by playing long ball into a short striker 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

There has to be more to Will Still than this. You don’t get to be one of Europes highest rated young coaches by playing long ball into a short striker 

Yep. He's looking very limited so far, but I don't believe he is. 

[AlexLaw76]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

There has to be more to Will Still than this. You don’t get to be one of Europes highest rated young coaches by playing long ball into a short striker 

Imagine if this is it. This is what Will Still is all about, and we spent months trying to get him and spent a Championship fortune to give him, by some distance, one of the top 3 squads in the league.

Like you, I do not believe it, but fuck me, we have been wrong so many times with Sports Republic 

[danjosaint]

Don't forget Will actually said he didn't have a style..... at least he's honest 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

Don't forget Will actually said he didn't have a style..... at least he's honest 

True...I assumed we'd get some actual tactics though. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

3 hours ago, egg said:

It shows he's clueless mate. 

Back to us, and the question. The squad is capable of much more than we're seeing, but the tactics aren't good. We're not pressing and aren't resistant to being pressed. We don't have much movement anywhere, especially between the lines. We're not getting the ball wide. The full backs aren't supporting or overlapping. We don't play though midfield, and have no grip on midfield. That's all aside of a little lad up top having the ball banged up to him, and nobody being around him. Etc. 

The short answer to the thread question is, from nowhere, if we carry on playing this way. 

Agree with everything you’ve said except not sure he’s useless - he got us promoted - just, although maybe that was despite his tactics!

[Miltonaggro]

You’d assume the club is keeping an eye on free agents. Not a great shopping list here but Bamford, per se, would give us some extra nous and focal point in this league. 
 

 

[pimpin4rizeal]

Don’t think it’s a coincidence that archers best  game by far was the cup game where he played in a 2 up front with Stewart if we want to get the best out of him something like a 442 or diamond is gonna play to his strengths, sane goes for AA really even though he can operate wide effectively I don’t see him getting in there now ..

our main supply of creating chances has been from crosses since still has been here but he’s yet to really give the cf position to downs or Stewart preferring the midget through the middle I don’t think it’s a case of our strikers not being good enough just we are not playing to the strengths of any of them 

Edited 6 hours ago by pimpin4rizeal

[saintant]

3 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Don’t think it’s a coincidence that archers best  game by far was the cup game where he played in a 2 up front with Stewart if we want to get the best out of him something like a 442 or diamond is gonna play to his strengths, sane goes for AA really even though he can operate wide effectively I don’t see him getting in there now ..

our main supply of creating chances has been from crosses since still has been here but he’s yet to really give the cf position to downs or Stewart preferring the midget through the middle I don’t think it’s a case of our strikers not being good enough just we are not playing to the strengths of any of them 

We seem to be high in the list of teams putting in crosses and from what I gather this is a Will Still trait. However, we'll not score many goals from crosses unless we introduce a big centre forward and therein lies our problem. We should be mixing it up by getting our wide men and Archer supported by Azaz to drive forward and get shots off plus threading passes through the inside channels for runners. Still has to come up with a formation that gives us more threat going forward and creates more chances because we look toothless particularly on Sunday.. 

[pimpin4rizeal]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

We seem to be high in the list of teams putting in crosses and from what I gather this is a Will Still trait. However, we'll not score many goals from crosses unless we introduce a big centre forward and therein lies our problem. We should be mixing it up by getting our wide men and Archer supported by Azaz to drive forward and get shots off plus threading passes through the inside channels for runners. Still has to come up with a formation that gives us more threat going forward and creates more chances because we look toothless particularly on Sunday.. 

Downs would be the choice for me as he’s got the pace to get in behind and the height .. but if we must play archer 442 diamond with azaz as the 10 would probably work great in getting the best out of him I actually think archer can be prolific with the right type of service 

[stfrancisofbenali]

What I'm astounded by is our lack of willingness to shoot from outside, or even from the edge of, the box in open play. Matsuki's goal V Northampton is significant because we were all so surprised that he'd even attempted such an outrageous act. Attempts like this used to be commonplace but we've become so conditioned to patient, ball-retention and not conceding possession. This was highlighted starkly for me on Sunday when Pompey brought on a reserve keeper who has played most of his football at Braintree Town and Hartlepool Utd. Surely any midfielder or attacking player would immediately be thinking about having a pot shot at such an inexperienced keeper. Not to test him at all in 64 mins of football was criminal. Are today's players just overcoached, only able to play one way and just unable to, quite literally, think outside the box?

[saintant]

17 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Downs would be the choice for me as he’s got the pace to get in behind and the height .. but if we must play archer 442 diamond with azaz as the 10 would probably work great in getting the best out of him I actually think archer can be prolific with the right type of service 

I agree that Archer will score enough goals given the right service. I'm unconvinced we have the players to score headed goals and thus fail to see the point of continually putting in crosses - I don't think either Stewart or Downs are going to weigh in with lots of headed goals because neither of them seem to have the spring or the body strength needed - they are a long way off Ron Davies! We should have signed or loaned a big unit who can head the ball and doesn't get outmuscled but once again we didn't address the centre forward position.

[skintsaint]

21 minutes ago, stfrancisofbenali said:

What I'm astounded by is our lack of willingness to shoot from outside, or even from the edge of, the box in open play.

I expect that to change with Leo in the team.

[disconnect]

32 minutes ago, stfrancisofbenali said:

What I'm astounded by is our lack of willingness to shoot from outside, or even from the edge of, the box in open play. Matsuki's goal V Northampton is significant because we were all so surprised that he'd even attempted such an outrageous act. Attempts like this used to be commonplace but we've become so conditioned to patient, ball-retention and not conceding possession. This was highlighted starkly for me on Sunday when Pompey brought on a reserve keeper who has played most of his football at Braintree Town and Hartlepool Utd. Surely any midfielder or attacking player would immediately be thinking about having a pot shot at such an inexperienced keeper. Not to test him at all in 64 mins of football was criminal. Are today's players just overcoached, only able to play one way and just unable to, quite literally, think outside the box?

At least we do seem to have a couple of players now who might be actually able to score from outside the box - Scienza, Azaz, Matsuki(!) maybe Jander?

Not sure players like Downes or Stewart have this in their locker, (but very happy to be proved wrong). 

[Wade Garrett]

We could have signed Richard Kone for a fraction of the cost of Downs.  
I’m loathe to blame our strikers though to be fair.  It’s not like we’ve missed a hatful.  We’re not creating enough.  Hopefully this will change as the players get used to playing together and the manager gets his methods across.

[Midfield_General]

What concerns me is that after something like £68m net spend in the last window we don't have a single striker who can provide a proper physical presence and bully defenders. Not one. 

It's going to make us very one-dimensional and easy to play against, because from the off teams are going to know what we're going to try and do, and we're not going to have any way of switching it up if it's not working. 

Said it before but the money spent on Downs should have been spent on a more physically imposing, target man type who can beat people up, back in and win a header or physical battle. Even if they were cheap and weren't considered a starter, it would mean we could change it up and cause a bit of havoc off the bench if we needed to. You need options. 

But all our strikers are either dwarves or wispy weaklings who get brushed off the ball and offer nothing in the air. I think neglecting to bring in any sort of strong physical presence up front is our single biggest mistake of the window, and it's going to cost us. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Midfield_General

[Oh no Mick Mills]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

What concerns me is that after something like £68m net spend in the last window we don't have a single striker who can provide a proper physical presence and bully defenders. Not one. 

It's going to make us very one-dimensional and easy to play against, because from the off teams are going to know what we're going to try and do, and we're not going to have any way of switching it up if it's not working. 

Said it before but the money spent on Downs should have been spent on a more physically imposing, target man type who can beat people up, back in and win a header or physical battle. Even if they were cheap and weren't considered a starter, it would mean we could change it up and cause a bit of havoc off the bench if we needed to. You need options. 

But all our strikers are either dwarves or wispy weaklings who get brushed off the ball and offer nothing in the air. I think neglecting to bring in any sort of strong physical presence up front is our single biggest mistake of the window, and it's going to cost us. 

Paul Onuachu?