Will Still Poll - Keep or Replace?

[stknowle]

7 minutes ago, stfrancisofbenali said:

No self-respecting club replaces a new manager after only six games, especially a kid who’s so new to the game. You might have thought we’d have learnt our lesson about the good that comes from chopping and changing managers. He needs to change the mentality and results pretty quickly though so let’s see what he’s made of. 

I’ve got to say that no self-respecting club at our level should be appointing a ‘kid who’s new to the game’. It’s just way too risky and the risks are being realised. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

You've not read what I've said. 

If the boss can't get a tune out of the new full backs or wingers that's absolutely on him. It's academic whether they are better than what we had. They are good. 

How the players are organised and set up is 100% on Still and his coaches. Ditto how they are motivated. Ditto how they are managed if they underpeform. Ditto if they don't follow orders. 

It's also on Still how he manages during matches. Not reacting to how the other team is playing and switching things up is 100% on him. Just throwing on random subs without any real change to how we play is all on him.

Stop making excuses for him. 

It’s so easy to be blinded by the easy answer - one man…one problem…sack him. Yes, he’s responsible for some aspects - picking Bazunu, Stephens, THB and Manning to start to give one example. But then when he tries changes such as bringing in Downes because Archer has failed he’s criticised again. 

Still is not exempt from criticism, but he is not the root cause. Five years of abject shit entertainment presided over by several Managers demonstrates this, unless of course you’re blind to the decline under SR.

[saintant]

19 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I think we'd need new owners if we want to succeed at all in the premier league. I just don't think Dragan has the financial power to be able to compete at all. I certainly can't see us doing what Sunderland have done. 

Well I can't disagree that we need new owners because SR has been a disaster from day one.

[CB Fry]

18 minutes ago, stfrancisofbenali said:

No self-respecting club replaces a new manager after only six games, especially a kid who’s so new to the game.

We shouldn't be giving football management jobs like we're the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Southampton Football Club as the worst episode of Jim'll Fix It it is possible to imagine.

[saintant]

19 minutes ago, benjii said:

There was enough quality there already not to be completely shite. There was enough quality there to send a team out to play and announce to SFC fans, "this is what we're about". There was enough quality to be aggressive out of possession. There was enough quality to have a good gameplan. 

A single new player tends to take quite a few games before settling and demonstrating his true form. Will Still is trying to juggle introducing 5-6 new guys at the same time and blending them with others who suffered the trauma of last season so no easy task. Add in the fact that he is saddled with a goalkeeper who continues to make schoolboy errors and it is perhaps not surprising that things have yet to click into place. I was initially very angry about yesterday and the Pompey game but maybe there are mitigating circumstances in which case he needs more time and, to be fair, he's never said any different himself.

[egg]

14 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

It’s so easy to be blinded by the easy answer - one man…one problem…sack him. Yes, he’s responsible for some aspects - picking Bazunu, Stephens, THB and Manning to start to give one example. But then when he tries changes such as bringing in Downes because Archer has failed he’s criticised again. 

Still is not exempt from criticism, but he is not the root cause. Five years of abject shit entertainment presided over by several Managers demonstrates this, unless of course you’re blind to the decline under SR.

Bringing in Downs shows a complete lack of judgement imo. 

I'm not saying to sack him now. I've said that I'd give him until the Derby game to see how he goes.

What I've said is that you're making excuses for him, and that management is more than coaching. It's also about managing the mentality, fear, motivation, etc. These players look like rabbits in headlights. Properly managed, they shouldn't, and properly coached, they should be competitive as individuals and as a team. 

[CB Fry]

35 minutes ago, benjii said:

There was enough quality there already not to be completely shite. There was enough quality there to send a team out to play and announce to SFC fans, "this is what we're about". There was enough quality to be aggressive out of possession. There was enough quality to have a good gameplan. 

Quite and let's remember that Aribo and Edozie would walk into nearly every squad and into most teams in the division but we decided not to play them at all. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, IFHP said:

For myself I think we should be looking to mount a play offs challenge, not necessarily get in them but at least finish within 3 points of 6 th place.

The fact that we've gone from firm favourites for automatic promotion at the start of the season to people now thinking that finishing below the playoffs is an acceptable / reasonable outcome tells us all we need to know about the situation we find ourselves in...

Edit: apologies, just seen that several people already made this point. Great minds and all that... 😁

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Bringing in Downs shows a complete lack of judgement imo. 

I'm not saying to sack him now. I've said that I'd give him until the Derby game to see how he goes.

What I've said is that you're making excuses for him, and that management is more than coaching. It's also about managing the mentality, fear, motivation, etc. These players look like rabbits in headlights. Properly managed, they shouldn't, and properly coached, they should be competitive as individuals and as a team. 

And what I’ve said is successive Managers have not been able to do this at Saints for several years - why do you think that is? Do you believe player recruitment has been optimal over the last 5 years?

Its not just the Manager mate - it’s deeper than that and history would suggest that a new managerial appointment will not stop the rot.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

do you remember when any mention of an experienced manager was shot down on here by certain people? Still has experience of the top French division, experience doesn’t equal success, etc etc. 

Probably purely coincidental, but @Matthew Le God has been relatively quiet recently...

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

What’s Ralph Hassenhutl doing nowadays? 👀

Crying... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... tears of laughter... 

 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Probably purely coincidental, but @Matthew Le God has been relatively quiet recently...

funny that isn’t it……

[BarberSaint]

We have to keep him for now and I'd be tempted to see how he gets on. Upper third and let's see what next year brings. I would, however, never again play Stephens, Baz, THB or Manning unless we couldn't sign on the tea lady or use a traffic cone.

Much as I'm not his greatest fan I'd put Aribo in instead of Fraser: he's far better even if he's slow. Fraser should be binned. Also not as enamoured as most about Robinson but I agree he brings energy, desire, makes things happen and needs to play to develop so I'd drop Azaz for now.

And he needs to learn how to make substitutions properly.

[Mboto Gorge]

14 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Quite and let's remember that Aribo and Edozie would walk into nearly every squad and into most teams in the division but we decided not to play them at all. 

Edozie seems to the only player in our squad who can actually beat a man and get to the by line. Yet he’s nowhere to be seen. Not even seen enough of that from fellows yet. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

I'm not sure SR would sack him to be honest, they were reluctant to get rid of Martin last season. They seem to like hanging on to their picks unless it gets really toxic. Personally, I really wanted him to be a success here, but we have no cohesion, no leadership on the pitch and no real structure. The Liverpool game is just pointless now. If there's no improvement at the weekend, then I think SR and Still are going to have more of a problem than now.

[Fabrice29]

Wanting a fourth manager this year is insane.

Edited 2 hours ago by Fabrice29

[saintant]

21 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Quite and let's remember that Aribo and Edozie would walk into nearly every squad and into most teams in the division but we decided not to play them at all. 

Maybe time to give them their chance against Liverpool - let's see what they have to offer. I imagine we might see these two plus McCarthy, Edwards or Wood, Quarshie, Robinson, Matsuki and Stewart. 

[Wade Garrett]

He’s either tactically inept, unable to get his ideas across or extremely weak.

That said, although I think I can see where this is going y would be mental to replace another manager.  SR would probably fuck that up anyway, so he should be given time.

He needs to make big changes though.  Personally, I would change both the centre-backs and the keeper.  The would also keep Downs as far away from the squad as possible.  I don’t think he’s got the balls to do it though.

[Mboto Gorge]

5 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Wanting a fourth manager this year is insane.

Probably tells you that the owners are continuously making the wrong appointments doesn’t it? 

[Greedyfly]

Just about keep but fuck me its dire.

[Chez]

1 hour ago, egg said:

You've not read what I've said. 

If the boss can't get a tune out of the new full backs or wingers that's absolutely on him. It's academic whether they are better than what we had. They are good. 

How the players are organised and set up is 100% on Still and his coaches. Ditto how they are motivated. Ditto how they are managed if they underpeform. Ditto if they don't follow orders. 

It's also on Still how he manages during matches. Not reacting to how the other team is playing and switching things up is 100% on him. Just throwing on random subs without any real change to how we play is all on him.

Stop making excuses for him. 

His subs have been fine imo. From what I have seen so far he wants to freshen things up in the final third and he doesn't want to mess about, so brings several on at the same time. Some subs then play well, some don't. 

[Gloucester Saint]

7 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Wanting a fourth manager this year is insane.

💯 on SR’s failings that it is even being discussed and 0% on the supporters. We all agree that the club needed an injection of English football industry experience to be viable let alone competitive.

What did we get instead? Spors and Still. 

What I’d much prefer to a new manager is new owners. Nothing will ever tangibly improve until SR sell up.

[RedArmy]

8 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Wanting a fourth manager this year is insane.

Delaying the inevitable is insane. 
 

It’s abundantly clear we are not getting promoted under Still this season and I doubt we’ll even be close. He will not be manager next season based on that failure so why sit through a shit pointless season just to sack him at the end of it when we can try and rescue something from it asap? 

[Chez]

7 minutes ago, saintant said:

Maybe time to give them their chance against Liverpool - let's see what they have to offer. I imagine we might see these two plus McCarthy, Edwards or Wood, Quarshie, Robinson, Matsuki and Stewart. 

Tough game to bring them in, but maybe Liverpool play their kids?

[Baird of the land]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

His subs have been fine imo. From what I have seen so far he wants to freshen things up in the final third and he doesn't want to mess about, so brings several on at the same time. Some subs then play well, some don't. 

His substitutions have been truly awful imo.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Chez said:

His subs have been fine imo. From what I have seen so far he wants to freshen things up in the final third and he doesn't want to mess about, so brings several on at the same time. Some subs then play well, some don't. 

They don't seem to positively influence us imo, and so many at once feels disruptive. To me, they just feel like a desperate roll of the dice rather than part of a plan.

[SNSUN]

Too early but if we don't win, say, 3 of the next 6 to the end of October at the very least, I will probably change my mind. That's Boro, Sheffield United, Derby, Swansea, Bristol City and Blackburn.  Clubs that pre-season we should have had expectations of beating and now they worry me. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Just now, SNSUN said:

Clubs that pre-season we should have had expectations of beating and now they worry me. 

I think, bar Ipswich, we would have had clear expectations to beat all the clubs we've faced thus far.

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, Chez said:

Tough game to bring them in, but maybe Liverpool play their kids?

Sink or swim time 🙂

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

And binning off Robinson has annoyed me

And Sesay not getting a chance. He looked decent in preseason.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

It’s more than Still - it’s mostly the players. I suspect it’s other aspects of the club also in terms of attitude, attention of detail, professionalism, etc. But for me the biggest issue is the players. They’re unfit, largely unable to deliver the basics, devoid of having ‘a fire in their belly’, scared of getting injured and most importantly, incompetent at key tasks in big moments. 

Replacing Still will not solve most of these issues - squad quality has been eroded. It will not stop Bazunu making basic GK errors, it will not stop Manning switching off and not closing down a winger putting in a cross, it will not stop Stephens being an ineffectual Captain, it will not stop THB being awful in the air, it will not stop the midfield go missing or be incapable of transitioning the ball forward, it will not stop our forwards being lazy cnuts with little movement in the final third…etc…etc…etc.

Finally, ask yourself this - if the new summer signings are better than the existing players (they should be) why are at least half of the relegation team players still in place? It’s an indication of the failure once again to replace vital components of the squad with better and/or more competent players…a continual erosion of squad quality until we reach a level befitting of the make-up of the team.

But it’s in Still’s gift to drop Bazunu, Stephens and Manning.  We have better players in those positions but I don’t think Still is strong enough to make the changes.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

But it’s in Still’s gift to drop Bazunu, Stephens and Manning.  We have better players in those positions but I don’t think Still is strong enough to make the changes.

Yep...that's management. Someone with gravitas makes those calls. 

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

We shouldn't be giving football management jobs like we're the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Southampton Football Club as the worst episode of Jim'll Fix It it is possible to imagine.

Worse than when someone was taught how to milk a cow blindfolded?

[Scoobysaint]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

I know very early but yesterday was woeful and. seems like could be out of his depth so should we pull the plug now?

This absolutely pathetic, embarrassing. If we have made no progress by Xmas then maybe questions should be asked. Chopping and changing manager doesn’t help the club, the players or the finances. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Scoobysaint said:

This absolutely pathetic, embarrassing. If we have made no progress by Xmas then maybe questions should be asked. Chopping and changing manager doesn’t help the club, the players or the finances. 

It's not pathetic nor embarrassing. The only thing pathetic and embarrassing is our managerial signing with no English football experience and our failures to address our giant holes in gk and up front. I voted to keep him by the way but three or four more games like this and I'll want him gone for sure.

Edited 2 hours ago by hypochondriac

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Scoobysaint said:

This absolutely pathetic, embarrassing. If we have made no progress by Xmas then maybe questions should be asked. Chopping and changing manager doesn’t help the club, the players or the finances. 

One season we sacked Alan Pardew after three  games and his replacement got us promoted into the Championship and the Premier League at least one year ahead of schedule, which was fantastic for the club, players and finances.

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, Scoobysaint said:

changing manager doesn’t help the club

It does if you get a better one. Crystal Palace should’ve embraced relegation and kept Frank de Boer. Ruben Selles was moments away from turning Sheff Utd around. Russell Martin will restore Old Firm glory….

Edited 2 hours ago by whelk

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not pathetic nor embarrassing. The only thing pathetic and embarrassing is our managerial signing with no English football experience and our failures to address our giant holes in gk and up front. I voted to keep him by the way but three or four more games like this and I'll want him gone for sure.

Same here. 3 more league games for me. Liverpool is a free hit and I won't judge him by that, unless we get utterly embarrassed. 

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, stfrancisofbenali said:

No self-respecting club replaces a new manager after only six games, especially a kid who’s so new to the game. You might have thought we’d have learnt our lesson about the good that comes from chopping and changing managers. He needs to change the mentality and results pretty quickly though so let’s see what he’s made of. 

Should Selles have been given another 3 months?

[Willo of Whiteley]

52 minutes ago, trousers said:

Probably purely coincidental, but @Matthew Le God has been relatively quiet recently...

lovely isn’t it 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Same here. 3 more league games for me. Liverpool is a free hit and I won't judge him by that, unless we get utterly embarrassed. 

If we lose to Middlesborough and Sheffield United get something against us then I can't see him lasting much longer after that. Lose to derby after that and he'll be gone imo.

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

One season we sacked Alan Pardew after three  games and his replacement got us promoted into the Championship and the Premier League at least one year ahead of schedule, which was fantastic for the club, players and finances.

But Pards had already been in charge of us for a season prior to that?

We needed to start that season on fire as NC wouldn't have accepted anything less, but we didn't and that was that. The overall feeling was disappointment that we didn't get at least playoffs in his first season.

You can't compare though - Pards was on what, 50 odd games for us when he was sacked - spanning 2 seasons. Still is on 6 or 7. Not comparable situations.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

But Pards had already been in charge of us for a season prior to that?

We needed to start that season on fire as NC wouldn't have accepted anything less, but we didn't and that was that. The overall feeling was disappointment that we didn't get at least playoffs in his first season.

You can't compare though - Pards was on what, 50 odd games for us when he was sacked - spanning 2 seasons. Still is on 6 or 7. Not comparable situations.

How many more games would you give will? 

[Fabrice29]

26 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Delaying the inevitable is insane. 
 

It’s abundantly clear we are not getting promoted under Still this season and I doubt we’ll even be close. He will not be manager next season based on that failure so why sit through a shit pointless season just to sack him at the end of it when we can try and rescue something from it asap? 

We’re 6 league games in. Absolutely nothing is abundantly clear at this stage. 

 

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not pathetic nor embarrassing. The only thing pathetic and embarrassing is our managerial signing with no English football experience and our failures to address our giant holes in gk and up front. I voted to keep him by the way but three or four more games like this and I'll want him gone for sure.

There’s a club below us on zero points with two managers who have plenty of English Football experience. Stop talking like that’s an indicator of any kind of success. It’s not.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

We’re 6 league games in. Absolutely nothing is abundantly clear at this stage. 

 

There’s a club below us on zero points with two managers who have plenty of English Football experience. Stop talking like that’s an indicator of any kind of success. It’s not.

That's a terrible point. They haven't got our players. 

[AlexLaw76]

Keeping a manager just because it is 6 games and one that is out of his depth, and/or in a position where it is clearly not working......is just daft.

The season can be saved, but of course, we will persist with Still, pick up the odd point as we have better players than most of the competition, and waste this season.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by AlexLaw76

[S-Clarke]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

How many more games would you give will? 

I'm not even putting a number on it, it seems daft to even be considering it at the moment in my eyes.

We got rid of Ralph and replaced him with Jones, again it was a new manager and scratched an itch people had. It made us worse though and we also wanted him out after a month or two. We got rid of Jones and appointed Selles, again it scratched an itch we all had and it needed to be done - but it made no difference. We got rid of Puel, something I was happy to happen and it scratched an itch I had at the time, but we appointed Pellegrino and it made us worse.

Calling for the manager to go every time things don't go to plan is incredibly short sighted in my eyes, and we've proven that it doesn't work - especially when it's SR making the picks. Success occurs when you stick and allow someone to build something, if you chop and change after a handful of games every time then no one can ever build anything, squads will erode and nothing will change. It's the shore fire way to accelerate our journey to become a Blackburn or Swansea or Stoke style Champ side.

I will look at the situation in November and see where we're at before even contemplating any thoughts around this one. 

I want him to be a success. I don't want us to be a club who just change the manager all the time like Watford just to scratch an itch because people want instant success. It will make no difference as the problems are deeper than a single person at this point.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

I'm not even putting a number on it, it seems daft to even be considering it at the moment in my eyes.

We got rid of Ralph and replaced him with Jones, again it was a new manager and scratched an itch people had. It made us worse though and we also wanted him out after a month or two. We got rid of Jones and appointed Selles, again it scratched an itch we all had and it needed to be done - but it made no difference. We got rid of Puel, something I was happy to happen and it scratched an itch I had at the time, but we appointed Pellegrino and it made us worse.

Calling for the manager to go every time things don't go to plan is incredibly short sighted in my eyes, and we've proven that it doesn't work - especially when it's SR making the picks. Success occurs when you stick and allow someone to build something, if you chop and change after a handful of games every time then no one can ever build anything, squads will erode and nothing will change. It's the shore fire way to accelerate our journey to become a Blackburn or Swansea or Stoke style Champ side.

I will look at the situation in November and see where we're at before even contemplating any thoughts around this one. 

I want him to be a success. I don't want us to be a club who just change the manager all the time like Watford just to scratch an itch because people want instant success. It will make no difference as the problems are deeper than a single person at this point.

Should we have stuck with Jones? Martin last season.......maybe should have given the job full time to Rusk?

 

If it aint working, it aint working

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I'm not even putting a number on it, it seems daft to even be considering it at the moment in my eyes.

We got rid of Ralph and replaced him with Jones, again it was a new manager and scratched an itch people had. It made us worse though and we also wanted him out after a month or two. We got rid of Jones and appointed Selles, again it scratched an itch we all had and it needed to be done - but it made no difference. We got rid of Puel, something I was happy to happen and it scratched an itch I had at the time, but we appointed Pellegrino and it made us worse.

Calling for the manager to go every time things don't go to plan is incredibly short sighted in my eyes, and we've proven that it doesn't work - especially when it's SR making the picks. Success occurs when you stick and allow someone to build something, if you chop and change after a handful of games every time then no one can ever build anything, squads will erode and nothing will change. It's the shore fire way to accelerate our journey to become a Blackburn or Swansea or Stoke style Champ side.

I will look at the situation in November and see where we're at before even contemplating any thoughts around this one. 

I want him to be a success. I don't want us to be a club who just change the manager all the time like Watford just to scratch an itch because people want instant success. It will make no difference as the problems are deeper than a single person at this point.

You're leaving out a lot of context there. We left Ralph n charge much too late when we should have just got rid in the summer. Replaced him with Jones who was clearly unsuitable and he had to go. At that point we just had to appoint someone to get to the end of the season. It's not about instant success but if we fail to win any of our next three with no signs of progress or a defined style of play then I don't see how Will can continue for a lot longer than that.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Should we have stuck with Jones? Martin last season.......maybe should have given the job full time to Rusk?

 

If it aint working, it aint working

But after 6 games you can't say that, in my opinion.

I think when you look at the number of managers we've switched around in the last 3-4 years, you have to seriously look deeper at this point. 1) who is making the picks, and 2) are there any core players who over-hang all managers?

Those two points are where the problem is, and as long as they don't change, changing the manager will make absolutely zero difference other than spinning us into more and more and more financial debt.