George Kift and future of the academy

[There when Franny scored]

A few will have already seen this:

My friend who lives in North Devon knew him well and told me when he moved to Saints he would be phenomenal. I think Saints relocated his whole family even when he was age 11. Apparently he has extraordinary confidence, something like what we see with Bellingham. 

By all accounts this is a generational talent who in times gone by would have presumably gone through to the first team and been sold for millions.

I don’t know how much compensation we will get, but if we can’t bring players through and sell them for huge sums you have to wonder whether the academy model can continue to be successful? 

This obviously applies to most of the teams in the pyramid as well.

Does anyone know if anything is being done about this?

I guess not given, as we have seen with Spygate, the elite run football but I’m surprised it doesn’t create more noise! 

 

[CSA96]

Reminds me of these comments from the Wolves technical director Matt Jackson at the end of last season

 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, There when Franny scored said:

A few will have already seen this:

My friend who lives in North Devon knew him well and told me when he moved to Saints he would be phenomenal. I think Saints relocated his whole family even when he was age 11. Apparently he has extraordinary confidence, something like what we see with Bellingham. 

By all accounts this is a generational talent who in times gone by would have presumably gone through to the first team and been sold for millions.

I don’t know how much compensation we will get, but if we can’t bring players through and sell them for huge sums you have to wonder whether the academy model can continue to be successful? 

This obviously applies to most of the teams in the pyramid as well.

Does anyone know if anything is being done about this?

I guess not given, as we have seen with Spygate, the elite run football but I’m surprised it doesn’t create more noise! 

 

If the system was totally fair, he would have been brought on by Exeter, Plymouth or one of the Bristol teams....

such is life.

[There when Franny scored]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If the system was totally fair, he would have been brought on by Exeter, Plymouth or one of the Bristol teams....

such is life.

Take your point, but if he isn’t in an academy already and we spot him, and are prepared to buy his family a house I think that’s fair enough. 

If City did that I wouldn’t complain because they aren’t taking someone else’s investment at a huge undervaluation (although I say that without knowing what competition we got, if any).

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, There when Franny scored said:

Take your point, but if he isn’t in an academy already and we spot him, and are prepared to buy his family a house I think that’s fair enough. 

If City did that I wouldn’t complain because they aren’t taking someone else’s investment at a huge undervaluation (although I say that without knowing what competition we got, if any).

I get it, it is shit. But if the South West clubs were able to match life our financial settlements for 11 year olds (and their families), maybe they would have a chance.

 

[There when Franny scored]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I get it, it is shit. But if the South West clubs were able to match life our financial settlements for 11 year olds (and their families), maybe they would have a chance.

 

Fair point, and we did take Stephens from Plymouth academy I think so not like we’re not also guilty of it. 
 

Just seems to be getting worse and they are going at such a young age we never even get to see them play for Saints which is a real shame. Same for the lad that went to Lyon.

[Patrick Bateman]

I actually think clubs should be limited to how many players they have in total for each 'team' or age group in the unders. Chelsea still have a ridiculous volume of players and them and Man City seem to be the worst for hoovering up all the talent from everyone else. It just means more talent gets forgotten about.

It would flow downwards, if clubs were limited to say 16-20 kids per age group (of the right age), then those deemed "not good enough" at the best clubs would flow down to other clubs, say Southampton or Coventry, then Oldham or Exeter etc. Gives the kids more chances to play and develop rather than sit in HUGE pools of players thinking they've already made it as they're at Man City.

Simplistic view maybe, but something needs to change. 

[sockeye]

I wonder if players (their agents) would be so desperate to go to Chelsea or Man City if they weren't able to leapfrog other clubs in terms of wages. Certainly they would continue to have a massive draw due to their status, but an academy-level salary cap could go some way to level the playing field here.

Edited 20 hours ago by sockeye

[SW11_Saint]

Depressing…and he’ll never get a look in at City. 

[Cuddles]

42 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Depressing…and he’ll never get a look in at City. 

We could loan him in a couple of years 👀

[Ted Bates Statue]

Why is it that we had to give up our satellite academy in Bath to placate the clubs in that region, but it's ok for Chelsea and Man City hoovering up all the prospects in Hampshire? Another instance of Saints simply surrendering to the EFL (and PL).

[Sir Ralph]

4 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I actually think clubs should be limited to how many players they have in total for each 'team' or age group in the unders. Chelsea still have a ridiculous volume of players and them and Man City seem to be the worst for hoovering up all the talent from everyone else. It just means more talent gets forgotten about.

It would flow downwards, if clubs were limited to say 16-20 kids per age group (of the right age), then those deemed "not good enough" at the best clubs would flow down to other clubs, say Southampton or Coventry, then Oldham or Exeter etc. Gives the kids more chances to play and develop rather than sit in HUGE pools of players thinking they've already made it as they're at Man City.

Simplistic view maybe, but something needs to change. 

Agree - they just take on as much talent as possible now as the costs are relatively low for the potential rewards. They dont care if for every 10 that fail one makes it but I wonder whether more would if they stuck to their original clubs. Jimmy Jay Morgan is a good example - left us and went to Chelsea, did nothing now succeding at WBA. Probably should have stayed with us

[coalman]

23 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Agree - they just take on as much talent as possible now as the costs are relatively low for the potential rewards. They dont care if for every 10 that fail one makes it but I wonder whether more would if they stuck to their original clubs. Jimmy Jay Morgan is a good example - left us and went to Chelsea, did nothing now succeding at WBA. Probably should have stayed with us

Didn't we pick up Jimmy Jay from Tottenham's academy? Along with Amo-Ameyaw

Edited 12 hours ago by coalman

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, coalman said:

Didn't we pick up Jimmy Jay from Tottenham's academy? Along with Amo-Ameyaw

Apparently we picked him up from Chelsea's academy before they took him back off us.

But this info is completely irrelevant and spoils the narrative.

[Sir Ralph]

Just now, coalman said:

Didn't we pick up Jimmy Jay from Tottenham's academy? Along with Amo-Ameyaw

According to Wiki he was born in Poole but Chelsea took him but then he joined Saints at a young age as the commute was too much. So essentially a local lad Chelsea knabbed from the area originally.
 

Agree on Amo-Ameyaw but I think the difference is Saints offered him a better pathway to first team football. My humble opinion is that stock piling talent is harmful to development so if a young player moves to city or Chelsea for £ or status that is potentially harmful. If they move for greater opportunity that’s a different matter

Edited 12 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[UpweySaint]

All in all it’s quite dispiriting, we’ve lost a few over the last few years with a lot of hype. Alleyne and Jimmy-Jay Morgan would probably be in and around the first team by now. Do we actually get compensation for a player moving this young? You can see why some clubs have folded their academies. I’m not suggesting we do similar but it’s a significant outlay if you see your brightest poached for buttons. If you were lower down the chain I guess the temptation is to scrap the academy and just rotate a scout around City, Chelsea etc and wait to see who doesn’t get offered a pro contract.

[Fabrice29]

8 hours ago, sockeye said:

I wonder if players (their agents) would be so desperate to go to Chelsea or Man City if they weren't able to leapfrog other clubs in terms of wages. Certainly they would continue to have a massive draw due to their status, but an academy-level salary cap could go some way to level the playing field here.

Yes probably. It’s not just a money thing, it’s education and opportunity too. Better coaches in theory, better players around you in theory and better standard of games to be playing. 

Appreciate the opening post and there probably could be some work done but aside from what’s already been pointed out about how we take advantage too, ambition and bettering your environment should never and will never be clipped. 

[Osvaldorama]

Stupid. 
 

it’s hurting the development of young players, it’s hurting the football pyramid. 
 

FA need to do more on this. 

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Stupid. 
 

it’s hurting the development of young players, it’s hurting the football pyramid. 
 

FA need to do more on this. 

Is it? England are now reaching semi finals and finals. 

[SaintNewForest]

Max Alleyne

Alejandro Rodriguez

Tyler Dibling (we got lucky he come back, in my opinion)

Harrison Miles

Jimmy Jay-Morgan

George Kift

Harley Emsden-James

 

All young lads who have gone to bigger clubs to further their development, and we barely get any benefits from it, financially and sporting. 

Long gone are the days of us promoting academy talents like Bale, Walcott, Chamberlain or Lallana, with them coming through and making an impact before being sold for big £££, to be honest. (and yes, before anyone mentions it, we got big £££ for Dibling of course, but he still originally left and the club got damn lucky he came back but thats such a rare case) 

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, SaintNewForest said:

Max Alleyne

Alejandro Rodriguez

Tyler Dibling (we got lucky he come back, in my opinion)

Harrison Miles

Jimmy Jay-Morgan

George Kift

Harley Emsden-James

 

All young lads who have gone to bigger clubs to further their development, and we barely get any benefits from it, financially and sporting. 

Long gone are the days of us promoting academy talents like Bale, Walcott, Chamberlain or Lallana, with them coming through and making an impact before being sold for big £££, to be honest. (and yes, before anyone mentions it, we got big £££ for Dibling of course, but he still originally left and the club got damn lucky he came back but thats such a rare case) 

We do the same at academy level to clubs below us in the football 'food chain'. 

[EBS1980]

Change academy and earn alot more money - you can see why they do it, especially when there is no certainty they will even make it. 
 

earn what you can when you can. 

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, SaintNewForest said:

Max Alleyne

Alejandro Rodriguez

Tyler Dibling (we got lucky he come back, in my opinion)

Harrison Miles

Jimmy Jay-Morgan

George Kift

Harley Emsden-James

 

All young lads who have gone to bigger clubs to further their development, and we barely get any benefits from it, financially and sporting. 

 

I have no idea of the answer to this but are these names thriving at their bigger clubs? Would they have been better off being a bigger fish in a smaller pond perhaps?

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, SaintNewForest said:

Max Alleyne

Alejandro Rodriguez

Tyler Dibling (we got lucky he come back, in my opinion)

Harrison Miles

Jimmy Jay-Morgan

George Kift

Harley Emsden-James

 

All young lads who have gone to bigger clubs to further their development, and we barely get any benefits from it, financially and sporting. 

Long gone are the days of us promoting academy talents like Bale, Walcott, Chamberlain or Lallana, with them coming through and making an impact before being sold for big £££, to be honest. (and yes, before anyone mentions it, we got big £££ for Dibling of course, but he still originally left and the club got damn lucky he came back but thats such a rare case) 

Quick question, are all those lads from Southampton?

[UpweySaint]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Is it? England are now reaching semi finals and finals. 

Without wanting to go into MLG mode correlation does not necessarily equal correlation.

It’s hard to prove or disprove the benefits to the national team either way. 

I appreciate the top down system isn’t going to change. We’re a part of it too. I do think the way teams are compensated needs looking at though to ensure academies remain sustainable lower down the pyramid. 

[Doctoroncall]

11 hours ago, There when Franny scored said:

Fair point, and we did take Stephens from Plymouth academy I think so not like we’re not also guilty of it. 
 

Just seems to be getting worse and they are going at such a young age we never even get to see them play for Saints which is a real shame. Same for the lad that went to Lyon.

Compensation wise, I think iirc, there is a general covering costs plus a bit and there is a sell on clause. Don’t know what the sell on would be but this came in a number of years ago to close an issue just before first pro deals. Perhaps it’s time the authorities looked at this again if they are interested to preserve an important revenue stream while solidarity payments or whatever they are get less. 

[Colinjb]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Quick question, are all those lads from Southampton?

Indeed.

Adding Newbury born Theo Walcott to that, who escaped Swindon's grasp. To complain when players are snatched from us is a complete hypocrisy. 

[spyinthesky]

JWP from Pompey's flipper like grab?
Bobby Stokes further on down the fishing line?

[Weston Super Saint]

Two lads from Northern Ireland just signed pro contracts from our academy. Not heard one single complaint about us stealing them from Northern Ireland....