Gemmel Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 If it meant the takeover could be done and dusted on Monday, or should we hold out, do battle with the FL and see if we can overturn it, even if it means the takeover drags on a little longer? Having resigned myself to the minus 10 points and a season of making sure we stay in league one, with the recent names bandied around of the people that might be manager, chairman etc and the seemingly assured position of the new people that they can get the 10 points taken off, which if happens, would surely give us a decent shout at promotion, i'm getting greedy and happy to hold out a little longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Fight the 10 points, if we have to wait a few more days then so what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I'd take the safe option of accepting the deduction. The Football League have us by the balls, just like they've had Leeds, Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton in similar situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint2Hotty Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 if it meant the difference between having a club an not then yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 what's best for the long term of the club. if it takes another week and the league back down, or give us chance to appeal its worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 The letter of the law probably is that we were not due to 10 point penalty, the spirit says we are. If it was another team we'd be screwing about it. Take the 10, just means we need to be 11 points clear to win league this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I'd just get on with it with -10 tbh. If we fight it we won’t win, as the FL always win. We'll only end up with even more point’s deductions...or even worse – a non-league club. ....please don't shoot yourselves in the foot pinacle, with the right backing, even with -10 we could have a chance next season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DG Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Take it and move on. The FL will always win sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Take the points, get a new owner, GET IT DONE!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I shouldnt imagine that Pinnacle would so fiercely fight it if they didnt think they have a very very very good chance on appeal, or that certain aspects of our financial backers guarantees dictates he has a club that can appeal to the points. No appeal, no takeover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Fight it and take them to court with an interim injunction pending a full hearing if they try and justify misusing their rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Fight it and take them to court with an interim injunction pending a full hearing if they try and justify misusing their rules. But this is where they've got us. if we do that, they will not transfer our share - so we will not be able to start as a league club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Bates Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Yes I would. Next question, would you want Fry to extend til Monday? My answer is yes I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I have always been an advocate of fighting bullies... and thats exactly what we should do. **** the FL, let's take it to Court... from what I was understand, we have a case, and thats why the FL are trying to batter us down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Sign what FL disclaimer and take the 10 points. This can still be challenged in court later under the Fair Contracts Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I have always been an advocate of fighting bullies... and thats exactly what we should do. **** the FL, let's take it to Court. Can't we do both? i.e. sign what they want to get us over this immediate hurdle and then get it retracted in retrospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaroid Saint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 bend over and take it like a man. like crab lungs i dont morally, ethically or spiritually agree with this but its what we gotta do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L1Minus10 Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 It's so ****ing stupid, just take the hit. if we appeal, we're going to lose anyway so take the hit and when we go up in the playoff final at the end of the year, the players and management can all give the Fl the finger from the Royal Box. I'm ****ed off that Stockport have in effect, not been punished but we deserve the -10 in my book so get on with it. Certainly don;t jeopardise anything to have the chance of fighting a decision which we have no chance of overturning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 we know nothing! its not a question of whether they fancy it or think its right. its a cold business decision based on the letter of the law, the structure of us and legal advice. let them get on with it, if there is a fair chance - fight it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawillwill Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I'm a man of principles and I think we should stick by our guns. Appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 But this is where they've got us. if we do that, they will not transfer our share - so we will not be able to start as a league club. The injunction would stop them from withholding it. They would look for a way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 FFS the club have already made that declaration. It must be the new owners that the league want to sign a similar declaration not to sue them. That may be illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 hey 3 threads on this! How fair will the FL look if they let a club go out of business just because they were not willing to let a fair impartial trbunal look at their decision on points? They would look awful and IMHO wouldn't let it happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorpie the sinner Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I kind of really want a club to support!! If the FL back down, it will be admitting their rules are wrong and it will open up an almighty can of worms!! take our medicine and get on with it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I kind of really want a club to support!! If the FL back down, it will be admitting their rules are wrong and it will open up an almighty can of worms!! take our medicine and get on with it!!! no it wouldn't. By their written rules we definately and clearly avoid a penalty. What is wrong is that they imposed it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_John Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Fight it and take them to court with an interim injunction pending a full hearing if they try and justify misusing their rules. This has my vote as well. Sue the FL for £20M (or whatever the cost of the deal) and the FL could go into Administration as well (I don't think they have that much money, it's all with the FA and the Prem League). From what has been said on here their legal council will tell them long before it gets anywhere near the courts that they cannot win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Given that the 'Golden Share' is owned by Southampton FC Ltd, and Pinnacle are buying Southampton FC Ltd - not sure why the **** they would have to transfer it! I'd imagine it was never transferred to SLH after the reverse takeover so why tranfer it? Clearly we have (through luck not judgement) got a decent out on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 This has my vote as well. Sue the FL for £20M (or whatever the cost of the deal) and the FL could go into Administration as well (I don't think they have that much money, it's all with the FA and the Prem League). From what has been said on here their legal council will tell them long before it gets anywhere near the courts that they cannot win. Would they be subject to a points penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wightman35 Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 no it wouldn't. By their written rules we definitely and clearly avoid a penalty. What is wrong is that they imposed it anyway By their rules that is true. Yet after what they did to Bournemouth, Luton and others in trouble, I reckon we'd be better off agreeing. Going to court later as a contract signed under duress might not be held legal sounds good but the League would probably escape on some technicality and then dock us even more points.:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FACUP76 Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I dont give a stuff about the ten point deduction anymore, I just want to be able to support my team next season...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Will just say what i said last time. Take the points deduction and be done with the whole saga once and for all. The whole case is about wether or not the two companies are the same, if they rely on one another. Does not take a legal genius to know that they do. SLH would not exist without the club. The club is more the parent company then SLH. What is the point in fighting that? We broke a rule and if it wasen't for Crouch and the Pinnacle money the club would of been in admin too. If we appeal and lose which personally i think we will then we risk getting a bigger punishment. With minus 10 we should still at least survive next season, then build on from there. The clubs future is more important then 10 points, it is more important then a morale who is right and who is wrong. We have no money, we went into admin, we should accept the punishment as have so many teams before us. Why should we be different? Take the points deduction, sign the deal and secure our longterm future. Who gives a **** if we start next year on minus 10? I would rather we had that then not start at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 If the creditors are paid off by Pinnacle and the slates are truly wiped clean, will we have benefited in any way from going into admin? This, after all, was the rationale for the deduction. Some clubs do benefit from admin -hence its right unfair advantage is punished; some dont, undermining the 'spirit' of the law. Given that the FL never had a strong legal foundation to challenge us (coz of the split of the club and holding company) but relied on the spirit of law, its arguable that the Pinnacle deal is not violating that. The FL have neither a legal case nor a moral one, based on the spirit of the law. That's what happens when you make things up on the fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 ******** to the FL: Let's set the precedent and challenging them. Whilst it's too late for Luton, Bournemouth et al, we still have a chance to go toe-to-toe with them and win. Let's do it. It might give some hope to other clubs in future too. Whilst I do agree clubs do need a deterrent so they don't abuse the system, punishing a club again who have already been punished (like Luton) was an absolute disgrace. They just compounded their misery, not help alleviate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I've always felt we've deserved the 10 points and think it's quite childish that we're still arguing about a point deduction rather than just accepting it and completing the takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Wages for June due next week - where does the money come from for them? If for a second month running the club cannot pay it's employees on the due date, they can instantly save the cost of an appeal, and things could get much uglier. Sorry but I struggle to follow the logic of those who think in some way the 'cunning plan' that SLH and SFC are disparate entities is in any way sustainable. It seems that many anti Lowe people are now clinging hold of his ill conceived attempt at a liferaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 The 10 point deduction was incorrectly applied. The holding company was a separate legal entity, the club is a completely separate beast. In no way were they 'inextricably linked' or they would both stand or fold together. Morally or legally we should not have a deduction, but technically we have to abide by the rules of the constitution of the Football League, and those rules provide for an appeal. Therefore we have the right, under those rules, to appeal. The 10 point deduction is a separate matter from the takeover and should be left to the appeal board. It should not be inextricably linked to approval of the takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I've always felt we've deserved the 10 points and think it's quite childish that we're still arguing about a point deduction rather than just accepting it and completing the takeover. We're not arguing it as such. The FL realise that if they sanction the takeover by Pinnacle for Southampton FC it will prove that SLH and SFC are separate, thus proving them totally wrong by their own rules to apply a deduction. It's clear that Pinnacle do intend to appeal at some point, but it's not what they were trying to do today. It's the FL realising that they will be f*cked if they allow the deal to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 The 10 point deduction was incorrectly applied. The holding company was a separate legal entity, the club is a completely separate beast. In no way were they 'inextricably linked' or they would both stand or fold together. Morally or legally we should not have a deduction, but technically we have to abide by the rules of the constitution of the Football League, and those rules provide for an appeal. Therefore we have the right, under those rules, to appeal. The 10 point deduction is a separate matter from the takeover and should be left to the appeal board. It should not be inextricably linked to approval of the takeover. Spot on. The FL ****ed up when they imposed it.. just goes to show what a mickey-mouse outfit they are, making things up as they go along. I hope we stick it out not just for ourselves, but also to give hope to future cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Sorry but I struggle to follow the logic of those who think in some way the 'cunning plan' that SLH and SFC are disparate entities is in any way sustainable. It seems that many anti Lowe people are now clinging hold of his ill conceived attempt at a liferaft. The problem is people see it as a battle between the small man and the big man, like a kid standing his ground against a teacher etc. The reality is as Pahars said on the other thread SLH went into admin due to the performance of the club. If the club did well SLH would not be in admin. As complicated as people try to make the issue it is as simple as that. The two companies are the same. The club is an asset of SLH. One effects the other. Its is a morale thing now where people think we have been treated unfairly, we don't deserve to be punished. If we try and imagine ourselves not in the situation and imagine it was say Portsmouth in that situation would people still think the same? The FL is represented by every club, they all agree to the rules. We must assume at some point we ourselves agreed to that rule when it came into effect. No doubt we were in a better position then and admin seemed unlikely. To me it is like the criminal who was caught red handed but still denies he did it. They have all the evidence to convict him but it still must go to court and he will have people trying to defend him even know they know he did it. And after the conviction he still proclaims he is innocent and been treated unfairly. We broke one of the rules which we must of helped to create at some point and should just accept it. Take it on the chin and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 The 10 point deduction was incorrectly applied. The holding company was a separate legal entity, the club is a completely separate beast. In no way were they 'inextricably linked' or they would both stand or fold together. Morally or legally we should not have a deduction, but technically we have to abide by the rules of the constitution of the Football League, and those rules provide for an appeal. Therefore we have the right, under those rules, to appeal. The 10 point deduction is a separate matter from the takeover and should be left to the appeal board. It should not be inextricably linked to approval of the takeover. They are not particularly separate legal entities they are company and parent company, the company was unable to meet it's financial obligations once the parent company went into administration , until such times as the parent company recieved funding to pay the company wages, the wages weren't paid. If there was a nail hammered in the lid that was it. Partisan emotions aside, I am stunned that anyone thinks that SFC is not bust until taken over. Could SFC take over the payments in full to Aviva? Of course not, they couldn't pay the wages and are now within a week of being there again. -10 points or a football club....... it would appear that some think the former battle more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Never give up and fight your way out of it is my motto **** the FL we will be out of their hair in 2 seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 They are not particularly separate legal entities they are company and parent company, the company was unable to meet it's financial obligations once the parent company went into administration , until such times as the parent company recieved funding to pay the company wages, the wages weren't paid. If there was a nail hammered in the lid that was it. Partisan emotions aside, I am stunned that anyone thinks that SFC is not bust until taken over. Could SFC take over the payments in full to Aviva? Of course not, they couldn't pay the wages and are now within a week of being there again. -10 points or a football club....... it would appear that some think the former battle more important. SFC is solvent if its owner provides financial support. If the present owner cannot do so then they can pass that 'asset' to someone who can. In fact, Fry has a legal duty to do so in order to maximise the benefits to the original owner's creditors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 This is about the FL being blackmailing ****s. Should we stand up in principle and say **** them - we have the right to appeal. Or accept the inevitable 10 point deduction (now forced upon us in writing without the chance to appeal?) and take Pinnacle, MLT and possibly KK onboard to drive us forward. If we stand up to this, we could lose the above and possibly face further deductions from the FL Nazis? I say take it now and deal with appeals later on if we think it'll count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Benali Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Hmm what would i rather have, a morale victory over the Football League or having MLT as our chairman, Keegan as our manager and some rich mysterious Batman type as our owner? Yeah i think i will go for the morale victory.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowesboy Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I hope the club stop acting like a 2nd hand car salesman and just accept the punishment. To say SLH and SFC are two seperate entities is an insult to everybodies intelligence. Lets get on with the long hard job of the rebuilding the club, and try and restore a bit of dignity to the name of Southampton Football Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Fighting the 10 points will cost us time preparing for next season. That, in turn, could cost us 10 points anyway. Take the medicine and start moving forwards. We need to get on with the football. And I can't take much more of the stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Underachiever Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Personally, while I don't agree with the deduction, I also think that Pinnacle and any other would-be buyer of the club should let it go and concentrate on rebuilding so we have a club to support. A ten point deficit is not the end of the world and is possible to wipe out with a run of good early results. Don't ruin a football club because of a principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat from Poole Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 If we didn't have the 10 point deduction, we'd miss out on the party we'd have from getting back into positive points. It's a once in a lifetime celebration we'd be missing out on, peeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 If we didn't have the 10 point deduction, we'd miss out on the party we'd have from getting back into positive points. It's a once in a lifetime celebration we'd be missing out on, peeps. Oh, I don't know. The same thing could happen again and again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordiesaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 FWIW I think that we have caught the FL out by being very very clever! But I think this is a battle we just cant win in this way. 10 points is not a massive obstacle, especially with a fantastic chairman, manager and support that we have/will have with this take over. I doubt we will incur a CVA(?) penalty as we are surely going to right off all our debts with the new owners. So why not take it on the chin and battle through next season. Yeah we were hit hard by the FL but we will give it back twice as hard if Pinnacle put their money where their mounth is / words into action! I guess it is a question as to whether we want to be a martyr for this cause? Many heros in the past have stood up and been remembered in legend. But at the end of the day am I or we brave enough to sacrifice everything for the cause? Not just for Saints but for Bournemouth, Luton an all the rest? I love my club and Im looking forward to next season. Im just not sure that im willing to risk that for the points. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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