CB Fry Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 This is just the flip side of the other thread. A bit of "I don't care about the cup" stuff on that thread, so thought it worth looking at it from the other side. Our last League game is Man U at home. Lets say if we win we go eighth, draw we stay ninth and lose we drop to tenth. That's our final day nail-biter. Can anyone explain how that is an attractive prospect? Does anyone really care? 9th or 8th? How exciting is that, really? How much coverage will it get us? What prospective players would care either way? And please no one even bother mentioning the x million difference between 8th and 10th prize money. Not a reason to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Isn't beating Man Utd always a cause for celebration? No other reward necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 If we finish 10th. I'm Going to go and party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Isn't beating Man Utd always a cause for celebration? No other reward necessary. As winning any other game would be. The difference between a few league positions in the expanse of mid-table is nothing to sing about. (Althouh if we finished 7th to get our best ever premier league finish I would have a drink in satisfaction.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I'll be looking forward to the backpage headline and photo as Rodriguez nets our 89th minute winner of 'the goal worth £1.4m' with him wheeling away and celebrating In front of delirious fans all waving inflatable cheques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I will probably cry that we just have a club to support and wonder in amazement at, how far we have come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I will settle for a nice relaxed end of season game, as long as we are not facing a relegation scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 3 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I'll be looking forward to the backpage headline and photo as Rodriguez nets our 89th minute winner of 'the goal worth £1.4m' with him wheeling away and celebrating In front of delirious fans all waving inflatable cheques. I can remember the radio, TV and papers going absolutely overboard on "The Race For Eighth" last season with all that hype around Swansea, West Brom and the other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 In years to come old men will tell their grandchildren about the year we finished eighth… or ninth… or tenth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 3 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I will probably cry that we just have a club to support and wonder in amazement at, how far we have come People forget where we were three years ago or four or whatever. What year is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 People forget where we were three years ago or four or whatever. What year is it? ...and some remember where we were in 1984 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 In years to come old men will tell their grandchildren about the year we finished eighth… or ninth… or tenth and how the 'dream season' turned sour on the last day as well lost our Premier status. An outside chance, but possible. Lets concentrate on staying in the league hey. A lot of arrogance is creeping in and we should guard against complaceny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARCELONASAINT Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 how about we get the chance to deny Man Utd the chance of Champions league footbal by beating them on the last day of the season. I will happily get quite excited about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 (edited) In years to come old men will tell their grandchildren about the year we finished eighth… or ninth… or tenth The open top bus tour of the city will be good. Celebrating the highest prize money in the clubs history. Cortese holding the cheque aloft in the air with the players drunk from swigging multi magnums of champagne. Edited 3 January, 2014 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 The open top bus tour of the city will be good. Celebrating the highest prize money in the clubs history. Cortese holding the cheque aloft in the air with the players drunk from swigging multi magnums of champagne. Probably only take a thimble full to achieve that, the tight fitness regime they have been on this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 and how the 'dream season' turned sour on the last day as well lost our Premier status. An outside chance, but possible. Lets concentrate on staying in the league hey. A lot of arrogance is creeping in and we should guard against complaceny. Yes because arrogance in fans and players loses you many many games, just ask Man United... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Top half finish I would settle foe and anything better brilliant. I would love a cup final as well. Win brilliant. But just winning that semi was a great memory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 What position in the table are Man Utd in this hypothetical end of season scenario and can we overtake them if we win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 We'll definitely need a pitch invasion if we beat Man Utd and finish 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 3 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2014 What position in the table are Man Utd in this hypothetical end of season scenario and can we overtake them if we win? I'd have said the world famous "race for eighth" is pretty blimmin' exciting in itself but if you want to ramp it up with added thrills fill your boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I'd have said the world famous "race for eighth" is pretty blimmin' exciting in itself but if you want to ramp it up with added thrills fill your boots. Not sure I could cope with the added tension to be honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 The fact is that league position matters the most, but at some trivial levels (8th or 10th) it doesn't matter as much as a cup win, or even just getting to Wembley. This isn't hard for any reasonable person to grasp, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Rather amusing choice presented here. Akin to being asked whether you would want to win the lottery or a gift-wrapped turd from the OP (note supply exceeds demand). The bookies have us at 25/1 to win the cup and 2/5 to finish in the top 8. Because compared to finishing 8th, winning the cup is definitely going to happen. Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Rather amusing choice presented here. Akin to being asked whether you would want to win the lottery or a gift-wrapped turd from the OP (note supply exceeds demand). The bookies have us at 25/1 to win the cup and 2/5 to finish in the top 8. Because compared to finishing 8th, winning the cup is definitely going to happen. Really. What are you on about, Strawlock? What "choice" is being offered on this thread? Read my opening post again, slowly, and come back to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Fair point CB. No it's not exciting, and obviously looking forward to a cup final would be amazing. No argument from me. And with the FA cup first few rounds mean we don't get any fixture congestion etc, so would like those us put out a side that goes to win these games. But, whilst we are still in with a chance of finishing higher... And it's not impossible if we get our main 11 back up and firing( we have played Man U, Arsenal, Everton, Newcastle, Liverpool away etc) then an argument can be made for at least focussing on league... As it's clear our squad depth is not strong enough. I don't think anyone underestimates the value of the cup and the excitement of winning the thing, but it's a case of recognizing that we simply don't have the strength in depth to give all comps the same focus.... Yet. So a decision has to be made... We might not agree, but ultimately I think the club believe that league focus and position should be the current priority - not just in financial terms, but in attracting players in the summer and demonstrating progress to younger stars who we want to keep. If we have a good second half season, it's still possible to get back to 6th or so, and that would be amazing progress. Very very difficult for sure, but not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 What are you on about, Strawlock? What "choice" is being offered on this thread? Read my opening post again, slowly, and come back to me. So the other references to cup finals in this thread are also missing the point? Poor misunderstood chap. The whole debate whether we prioritise the cup or the league by putting out a full-strength team given the respective chances of winning 'something' has nothing to do with this thread. Nothing whatsoever Thanks for clarifying - clear as mud, pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 This is just the flip side of the other thread. A bit of "I don't care about the cup" stuff on that thread, so thought it worth looking at it from the other side. Our last League game is Man U at home. Lets say if we win we go eighth, draw we stay ninth and lose we drop to tenth. That's our final day nail-biter. Can anyone explain how that is an attractive prospect? Does anyone really care? 9th or 8th? How exciting is that, really? How much coverage will it get us? What prospective players would care either way? And please no one even bother mentioning the x million difference between 8th and 10th prize money. Not a reason to care. I agree 100% - now we are almost certainly free from relegation worries why people are more concerned with points rather than the FA Cup is beyond me. Our current position enables us to have a bloody good stab at the Cup (just as it was in 2003) and for fans not to care epitomises the sorry state the game is actually in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 So the other references to cup finals in this thread are also missing the point? Poor misunderstood chap. The whole debate whether we prioritise the cup or the league by putting out a full-strength team given the respective chances of winning 'something' has nothing to do with this thread. Nothing whatsoever Thanks for clarifying - clear as mud, pal. This thread is aimed at people who say the magic has gone from the cup on the other thread. It's a companion to that thread asking: okay, where is the magic in finishing eighth? As far as I can see there has never been any magic in that, and I can't see any now either. Everyone else has understood that but I am not surprised you can't. And nothing here about full strength sides here either. Keep making stuff up Strawman, that's two posts in a row on the same thread. Poor misunderstanding chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I agree 100% - now we are almost certainly free from relegation worries why people are more concerned with points rather than the FA Cup is beyond me. Our current position enables us to have a bloody good stab at the Cup (just as it was in 2003) and for fans not to care epitomises the sorry state the game is actually in. 100% this. If not this season, when?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 100% this. If not this season, when?! Totally agree although feel NC is more of same opinion as Paul Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Rather amusing choice presented here. Akin to being asked whether you would want to win the lottery or a gift-wrapped turd from the OP (note supply exceeds demand). The bookies have us at 25/1 to win the cup and 2/5 to finish in the top 8. Because compared to finishing 8th, winning the cup is definitely going to happen. Really. Agree. Its CB and Turkish arguing the case that given the choice between winning the FA Cup but finishing 10th or losing today but finishing 8th we should choose the cup.....errr yes!? Which would be a fair point - but I'm not sure who they are mocking as I can't imagine anyone disagreeing. Also, we don't have that choice. In a cup game anything can happen. Which is why it is obvious a club plans its future (finances, progression etc) on the league. Winning the premiership is better for a club than winning the cup. I'd prefer to go to a losing fa cup semi final if it meant sacrificing our good league start and dropping into bottom half. What they seem to miss is that the club are not given these as choices but make judgement calls. When we played Sunderland we were one point off 2nd. We played two players we don't use in first team. The club said they had a lot of games coming up and needed to vary - judgement call. Team wasn't millions miles away from team that beat a better Cardiff side 3-0. Maybe shouldn't have given Reed and Lee a game but gave Reed experience and Lee a chance (not taken). Maybe Lambert didn't need a rest... But that team should have had a decent chance - we played 6 full international players, three who played u21 / GB etc - only Kelvin (who definitely should play in cup games) and Reed hadn't. If the club wanted to use Lambert etc to get us a trophy...we only would have had to beat Chelsea, Man Utd and most likely Man City - it was on a plate for us!! If Cortese's progress keeps going we will be starting every cup with bookies putting us in quarter finals. I'm sure Cortese would love to win the cup final this year. If we did it would also greatly assist the club progressing - but even losing in the final wouldn't help much. (But a day we want and would remember). Hopefully we will get a good cup run, it can also help league form. But if we do badly in the cups but get established in top 8 hopefully will get lots more opportunities. The cup isn't that open. Best way to get to Wembley.. Get into top 4! Other than Wigan and Portsmouth I don't think a team outside the top 4 has won in last 25 odd years (and only a handful of losing finalists - from memory us, Cardiff, skates, Millwall..?) So its not a choice of A) move up league two places, or, B) win cup final Its a case that sensible planning to progress club, attract better players etc has to be based on league. Cup used to be more magical when it was a rare live TV game at the end of the season. Great memories watching all day, its a knock out, player profiles, coach journeys etc. Sky games, internet etc all progress but has taken away the novelty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 If we finish 9th I am getting a tattoo to along with the great season from 2003, the 76 tattoo was one I never wanted........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 You make a good point CB Fry. My thread on FA cup was based on the premise that many clubs including ourselves do not put out their strongest teams for the FA cup. However should we reach the final that would be far more exciting than the final game against MU. Imagine the headlines "Saints finish eighth and deny Man. U. the title" or "Carberry scores a century on first day of home game against Glamorgan" Think I might just go to the cricket although as a season ticket holder of both I could dip in and out! Wonder what your namesake would have done confronted with playing in either? We are reasonably safe requiring a maximum of 13 points from our last 18 games and no real prospect of a top 6 finish. On that basis, as Duncan says, we should be putting out our strongest team and going for the cup. We have a realistic prospect of winning it this year. Team announcement at 2pm will give us a good idea but I am not holding my breath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 (edited) Agree. Its CB and Turkish arguing the case that given the choice between winning the FA Cup but finishing 10th or losing today but finishing 8th we should choose the cup.....errr yes!? Which would be a fair point - but I'm not sure who they are mocking as I can't imagine anyone disagreeing. Also, we don't have that choice. In a cup game anything can happen. Which is why it is obvious a club plans its future (finances, progression etc) on the league. Winning the premiership is better for a club than winning the cup. I'd prefer to go to a losing fa cup semi final if it meant sacrificing our good league start and dropping into bottom half. What they seem to miss is that the club are not given these as choices but make judgement calls. When we played Sunderland we were one point off 2nd. We played two players we don't use in first team. The club said they had a lot of games coming up and needed to vary - judgement call. Team wasn't millions miles away from team that beat a better Cardiff side 3-0. Maybe shouldn't have given Reed and Lee a game but gave Reed experience and Lee a chance (not taken). Maybe Lambert didn't need a rest... But that team should have had a decent chance - we played 6 full international players, three who played u21 / GB etc - only Kelvin (who definitely should play in cup games) and Reed hadn't. If the club wanted to use Lambert etc to get us a trophy...we only would have had to beat Chelsea, Man Utd and most likely Man City - it was on a plate for us!! If Cortese's progress keeps going we will be starting every cup with bookies putting us in quarter finals. I'm sure Cortese would love to win the cup final this year. If we did it would also greatly assist the club progressing - but even losing in the final wouldn't help much. (But a day we want and would remember). Hopefully we will get a good cup run, it can also help league form. But if we do badly in the cups but get established in top 8 hopefully will get lots more opportunities. The cup isn't that open. Best way to get to Wembley.. Get into top 4! Other than Wigan and Portsmouth I don't think a team outside the top 4 has won in last 25 odd years (and only a handful of losing finalists - from memory us, Cardiff, skates, Millwall..?) So its not a choice of A) move up league two places, or, B) win cup final Its a case that sensible planning to progress club, attract better players etc has to be based on league. Cup used to be more magical when it was a rare live TV game at the end of the season. Great memories watching all day, its a knock out, player profiles, coach journeys etc. Sky games, internet etc all progress but has taken away the novelty. No it's not a choice of finish eighth or win cup or whatever you are saying. Would never start a thread that stupid. I'm not you. I am asking people to explain the magic of mid table finishes and how that is better than the magic of the cup. I think we probably won't win the cup. But going into March in the quarter finals of it makes for more exciting season than just the league program. But carry on completely mis interpreting my thread. You and Strawlock are quite a duo. Edited 4 January, 2014 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Team announcement at 2pm will give us a good idea but I am not holding my breath! You have seen this presumably? http://mobile.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/saints-vs-burnley-fa-cup-preview-1273334.aspx?pd=635243547780000000 Not suggesting anything other than a vastly weakened side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 (edited) Oh, and one more thing to shut Strawman and NickG up. I have said countless times on this forum that this season I think we can finish eighth and get to the cup final. Probably directly to the pair of you. Definitely to Lighthouse and OldNick and other nutcases. So why do i need to start a dopey "choice" thread. I don't. And I haven't. Read the opening post again. Cheers. Edited 4 January, 2014 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Hopefully we'll be too concerned with the Cup Final the following week to be too bothered about the mancs at home. But I'm not holding my breath. I agree 100% - now we are almost certainly free from relegation worries why people are more concerned with points rather than the FA Cup is beyond me. Our current position enables us to have a bloody good stab at the Cup (just as it was in 2003) and for fans not to care epitomises the sorry state the game is actually in. Totally agree. Totally agree although feel NC is more of same opinion as Paul Lambert. Perhaps NC ought to realise he will remain firmly in the shadow of Laurie MacMenemy until he delivers a trophy or two, no matter how many £12m imports from Italy he gambles on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Hopefully we'll be too concerned with the Cup Final the following week to be too bothered about the mancs at home. But I'm not holding my breath. Totally agree. Perhaps NC ought to realise he will remain firmly in the shadow of Laurie MacMenemy until he delivers a trophy or two, no matter how many £12m imports from Italy he gambles on. The post of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Or we need to win that last game to retain our premier league status…….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 No it's not a choice of finish eighth or win cup or whatever you are saying. Would never start a thread that stupid. I'm not you. I am asking people to explain the magic of mid table finishes and how that is better than the magic of the cup. I think we probably won't win the cup. But going into March in the quarter finals of it makes for more exciting season than just the league program. But carry on completely mis interpreting my thread. You and Strawlock are quite a duo. Dont think he is disagreeing that a good cup run is a great thing. And certainly it has far more allure than going out today and finishing 10th. But surely you can see, that from the club's perspective, if they are serious about making real progress, that means finishing as high in the league as possible... Because that potentially suggests we could make another step next season... Encouraging potential signings and keeping our best talent for at least another season? For clear progress to be demonstrated, even a run to the final would be no use if we ended up finishing back down in 14th... For the fans a no brainer, but for the development and progress of the club, the higher league position is priority. in an ideal world, no choice is necessary as we would have enough strength in depth to be competitive in the cup, without any compromise on the side available for the league, but we don't have that luxury. So if you were offering a guarantee of 7th now, or a cup final + finishing 10 th, I would have say 7th... Winning the thing is another matter;-) For fans a trophy like that would always come first, but club needs to look to the longer term, so will take the stance that league placing first. A final but 13/14th would not be seen as any progress by NC - and many of the players after the 'excitement' of a final has worn off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Dont think he is disagreeing that a good cup run is a great thing. And certainly it has far more allure than going out today and finishing 10th. But surely you can see, that from the club's perspective, if they are serious about making real progress, that means finishing as high in the league as possible... Because that potentially suggests we could make another step next season... Encouraging potential signings and keeping our best talent for at least another season? For clear progress to be demonstrated, even a run to the final would be no use if we ended up finishing back down in 14th... For the fans a no brainer, but for the development and progress of the club, the higher league position is priority. in an ideal world, no choice is necessary as we would have enough strength in depth to be competitive in the cup, without any compromise on the side available for the league, but we don't have that luxury. So if you were offering a guarantee of 7th now, or a cup final + finishing 10 th, I would have say 7th... Winning the thing is another matter;-) For fans a trophy like that would always come first, but club needs to look to the longer term, so will take the stance that league placing first. A final but 13/14th would not be seen as any progress by NC - and many of the players after the 'excitement' of a final has worn off. We won't finish 14th this season. Now way. 11th at worst IMO. But even if we did, it isn't going to put players off. It didn't put Waya and Lovren off. Its a red herring to say potential signing are influenced by a 7th or 11th place finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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