What is wrong with America

[Sheaf Saint]

11 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Right in the jugular by the looks of it. He was pro-gun as well.

Live by the sword gun, die by the sword gun.

It's awful what's happened, but as someone else has pointed out, the only real surprise here is that this hasn't happened more often, given the pro-gun rhetoric and the deeply polarised politics. What a fucked up country.

[AlexLaw76]

Far left are dangerous people

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Live by the sword gun, die by the sword gun.

It's awful what's happened, but as someone else has pointed out, the only real surprise here is that this hasn't happened more often, given the pro-gun rhetoric and the deeply polarised politics. What a fucked up country.

That's a pretty crass comment to be honest. The only person responsible for this is the person who shot him.

[revolution saint]

Thoughts and prayers 

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Live by the sword gun, die by the sword gun.

 

Same thought process for George Floyd I guess.

[Gloucester Saint]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Far left are dangerous people

As are the far right as we know all too well here with Jo Cox and over there with JFK, RFK snr and MLK. Both extremes are dangerous and too prominent since the financial crisis. 

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

16 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Far left are dangerous 

Thanks. Are you making a generic statement or in connection to this?

Can you elaborate?

[whelk]

11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Same thought process for George Floyd I guess.

Great analogy 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Thanks. Are you making a generic statement or in connection to this?

Can you elaborate?

Nope. Forgot to add the word Cunts to my original post - that's how it works, right?

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Great analogy 

Ta

[whelk]

Do you think they will take as long to capture the assassin as they took to get Bin Laden?

 

Edited yesterday at 07:26 by whelk

[Saint86]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a pretty crass comment to be honest. The only person responsible for this is the person who shot him.

Agreed.

Just another example of the division between people, and the lack of understanding/empathy that is blighting modern society in the west in particular.

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

That suits Trump though. 

Unless he gets killed too. On the list of public political figures people would like to take out I'd imagine he's at the top, if it becomes open season over there I don't like his chances. 

[whelk]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a pretty crass comment to be honest. The only person responsible for this is the person who shot him.

Agree but if your schtick is publicly ridiculing and provoking students and saying a few gun deaths is a price worth paying for their open gun culture there is some irony there

[whelk]

if I was using the idiot conspiracy theory line. Who gains? Trump.  Knocks Epstein out of the news and fuels his dangerous radical left want violence and free speech denied.  

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Agreed.

Just another example of the division between people, and the lack of understanding/empathy that is blighting modern society in the west in particular.

It's social media. No one normal can watch that close up clip of the shooting and not be appaled and upset. I couldn't stop thinking about it to be honest. It's horrendous seeing a real shooting at close quarters like that. Also tragic because he seems like a guy that really was just a conservative wanting to use words and dialogue to give his point of view.

Edited yesterday at 07:38 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

if I was using the idiot conspiracy theory line. Who gains? Trump.  Knocks Epstein out of the news and fuels his dangerous radical left want violence and free speech denied.  

I get that but maybe not the best time to bring it up immediately after he's been shot and killed.

[Saint86]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's social media 

Also agreed, or at least significantly so.

Part of the problem is, is that people watch entirely different content/takes on world events based on the algorithms - and then form a viewpoint. That acts like rabbit holes that become ever more extreme. Then they look at people on the other side and cannot comprehend how they have such differing viewpoints whilst equally being completely ignorant to what those other people may have watched. So people are divided now from the start. And then the younger generations in particular are growing up on social media and are far less likely to talk and interact with each other. Divides are becoming chasms at this point. Not clear how society winds the clock back from it.

Add to that the political rhetoric and language being used (in the states both sides have been doing it for a while now - but re the kirk killing you have stuff like fascist and Nazi's being bandied about routinely) - this sort of language just radicalises people, increases the divides, and makes these things more likely.

Edited yesterday at 07:48 by Saint86

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

14 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Nope. Forgot to add the word Cunts to my original post - that's how it works, right?

Ta

Not sure what you're getting at. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Also agreed, or at least significantly so.

Part of the problem is, is that people watch entirely different content/takes on world events based on the algorithms - and then form a viewpoint. That acts like rabbit holes that become ever more extreme. Then they look at people on the other side and cannot comprehend how they have such differing viewpoints whilst equally being completely ignorant to what those other people may have watched. So people are divided now from the start. And then the younger generations in particular are growing up on social media and are far less likely to talk and interact with each other. Divides are becoming chasms at this point. Not clear how society winds the clock back from it.

I'd ban social media for under sixteen to be honest. Enforce it as well as you can.

[RedArmy]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

Agree but if your schtick is publicly ridiculing and provoking students and saying a few gun deaths is a price worth paying for their open gun culture there is some irony there

Im not sure that is his schtick at all, I thought he was always pretty respectful and it was just debating opinions and policies. 
 

The irony is that his reasons for doing it were that once you stop debating and communicating with the “other side” it all becomes dehumanised and that’s when the violence starts. 
 

 

[Saint86]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd ban social media for under sixteen to be honest. Enforce it as well as you can.

Agreed again 😄

There is a drive to get smartphones out of schools, which is part of that. But social media would be the thing to really get rid of for kids.

Edited yesterday at 07:50 by Saint86

[Lighthouse]

35 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a pretty crass comment to be honest. The only person responsible for this is the person who shot him.

When a school full of children is gunned down, the likes of Kirk are usually the first to say, "OMG thoughts and prayers, how sad etc." before continuing their relentless defence of the second amendment. It's not a crass comment, Kirks death barely even counts as ironic it's so literal.

The shooter is responsible for the shooting but they are not solely responsible for this, not by a long way. America has chosen to elect a president who in 2021 tried to overthrow a democratic election and take the country by force. There has been a very clear shift away from respecting the values of freedom and democracy towards, 'it's my way or nothing and violence to anyone who opposed me'.

[Sheaf Saint]

32 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a pretty crass comment to be honest. The only person responsible for this is the person who shot him.

True, but the only reason the shooter was able to do what they did is because of the utterly fucked up gun laws in the US, of which Kirk was a strong advocate. It's tragic what's happened, and shouldn't happen in any sane society. But US culture is so fucked that these events have become normalised, and Kirk himself was quoted as saying that they are an unfortunate necessity in order to protect the 2nd amendment. 

And anyway, it's pretty hypocritical of you to accuse others of crass comments when only yesterday you were wildly celebrating the Israeli airstrike on Doha in which innocent Qataris were killed.

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Im not sure that is his schtick at all, I thought he was always pretty respectful and it was just debating opinions and policies. 
 

The irony is that his reasons for doing it were that once you stop debating and communicating with the “other side” it all becomes dehumanised and that’s when the violence starts. 
 

 

Fair point and I can’t say I know a huge amount about him. I shouldn’t rely on South Park for balance

[Sheaf Saint]

55 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Far left are dangerous people

Amazing that you know the political stance of the shooter when he hasn't even been found yet.

[RedArmy]

3 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

And anyway, it's pretty hypocritical of you to accuse others of crass comments when only yesterday you were wildly celebrating the Israeli airstrike on Doha in which innocent Qataris were killed.

Live by the sword terrorist, die by the sword terrorist. 
 

No? Is that not how this works? 
 

 

[Saint86]

30 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No one normal can watch that close up clip of the shooting and not be appalled and upset. I couldn't stop thinking about it to be honest. It's horrendous seeing a real shooting at close quarters like that. Also tragic because he seems like a guy that really was just a conservative wanting to use words and dialogue to give his point of view.

I haven't seen the close up video and don't want/need to - The footage of that poor Ukrainian woman on the train was heart-breaking enough, i don't need to see any more snuff films of violence in America. But yes, it is very sad. People may not have agreed with his politics, but from what i can see he was just a young guy that was passionate about political discourse and for engaging younger people in politics. To be killed for it is just horrendous. Its the sort of thing that might happen in some despotic or backwards state - not the self proclaimed leader of the free world.

That's 3 assassination attempts in America in under a year now - 2 on trump (1 near miss), and obviously this one on Charlie Kirk - feels like a pretty long way back to being a stable democracy. 

Edited yesterday at 08:08 by Saint86

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Live by the sword terrorist, die by the sword terrorist. 
 

No? Is that not how this works? 
 

 

I don't know anything about the political opinions of the members of the Qatari security forces that were killed, and neither do you. 

[benjii]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Same thought process for George Floyd I guess.

What the fuck is this?! 😅🤣😂

[hypochondriac]

21 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I haven't seen the close up video and don't want/need to - The footage of that poor Ukrainian woman on the train was heart-breaking enough, i don't need to see any more snuff films of violence in America. But yes, it is very sad. People may not have agreed with his politics, but from what i can see he was just a young guy that was passionate about political discourse and for engaging younger people in politics. To be killed for it is just horrendous. Its the sort of thing that might happen in some despotic or backwards state - not the self proclaimed leader of the free world.

That's 3 assassination attempts in America in under a year now - 2 on trump (1 near miss), and obviously this one on Charlie Kirk - feels like a pretty long way back to being a stable democracy. 

I didn't actually want to watch it either but unfortunately it was on my twitter feed and I didn't realise what it was going to show. 

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

if I was using the idiot conspiracy theory line. Who gains?

Russia...timing a coincidence with the whole Poland encroachment.

(I don't believe this but already read this on social media).

[Sir Ralph]

Its sad that someone thinks that somebody needs to shot somebody because they cant handle or rebut their opinion. Kirk was a reasonable debater - not someone with extreme views, which makes it even more worrying. To say this wasnt politically motivated seems unlikely. The shooter has actually increased KIrk's profile and more people will now watch his videos and his views. I've joined the Turning Point USA and UK because of it.

 

Edited yesterday at 09:31 by Sir Ralph

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Live by the sword gun, die by the sword gun.

It's awful what's happened, but as someone else has pointed out, the only real surprise here is that this hasn't happened more often, given the pro-gun rhetoric and the deeply polarised politics. What a fucked up country.

Wow. For someone who prides themselves on being one of the good guys quick to jump on anyone else for any perceived slight that’s a pretty poor taste comment 

guy was shot for having a different opinion to the killer right? 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, benjii said:

What the fuck is this?! 😅🤣😂

C’mon. Some things take Batman a lot of time to get over

[Gloucester Saint]

3 hours ago, Saint86 said:

I haven't seen the close up video and don't want/need to - The footage of that poor Ukrainian woman on the train was heart-breaking enough, i don't need to see any more snuff films of violence in America. But yes, it is very sad. People may not have agreed with his politics, but from what i can see he was just a young guy that was passionate about political discourse and for engaging younger people in politics. To be killed for it is just horrendous. Its the sort of thing that might happen in some despotic or backwards state - not the self proclaimed leader of the free world.

That's 3 assassination attempts in America in under a year now - 2 on trump (1 near miss), and obviously this one on Charlie Kirk - feels like a pretty long way back to being a stable democracy. 

Plenty more further back - 1960s glut - JFK, RFK, MLK, George Wallace in 1972, Harvey Milk 1978, Reagan attempt 1981. It should be instructive about gun control, but the penny never drops.

As others have said, Trump can’t invoke the rule of law after what happened on Capitol Hill and bears some of the responsibility although the gunman is first and foremost. 

Tragic that a fella of 31 with kids is gunned down. No excuse for doing it. Horrific act. But if you have 1) free and easy access to lethal weapons 2) divisive and toxic political culture and 3) poor national mental health (this was what happened in the Wallace shooting) with constant attacking on state and federal programmes trying to mitigate that, these incidents be it political figures or even worse, schools (Columbine, Sandy Hook) will keep happening. 

[Farmer Saint]

Awful that he died, yet Trump was somehow spared. Feel awful for his family and kids.

 

[iansums]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Awful that he died, yet Trump was somehow spared. Feel awful for his family and kids.

 

Kirk spoke a lot of sense but like a lot of Americans, had a blind spot when it came to gun control and their constitution. They could always have a third amendment. Time for another look at the Jim Jefferies gun control clip on YouTube.

[rallyboy]

6 minutes ago, iansums said:

Kirk spoke a lot of sense 

His record and some of his campaigns suggest that he also spoke an awful lot of crap.

Sadly, if you do that from a podium enough times, a nutter is going to take the law into his own hands. 

Words should be used carefully in US politics - calling people traitors etc, can only lead to division, and worse.

 

[Convict Colony]

In other countries when someone cant win a factual debate they scream louder, in america they get a gun.

 

[benjii]

27 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Awful that he died, yet Trump was somehow spared. Feel awful for his family and kids.

 

I guess Kirk lost the debate.

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

I guess Kirk lost the debate.

I think what happened backed up his statement, just in the most ironic way.

Edited 23 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

His record and some of his campaigns suggest that he also spoke an awful lot of crap.

Sadly, if you do that from a podium enough times, a nutter is going to take the law into his own hands. 

Words should be used carefully in US politics - calling people traitors etc, can only lead to division, and worse.

 

Are you suggesting he is in some way culpable for the shooting?

[skintsaint]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think what happened backed up his statement, just in the most ironic way.

Especially as he was talking about gun crime as he got shot.

[rallyboy]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you suggesting he is in some way culpable for the shooting?

Blimey, I hadn't considered that he might be involved, it would be a dramatic suicide if that's what you're asking, but it sounds ridiculously far-fetched.

Putting that conspiracy theory aside, if Trump labels people as traitors, enemies of the state, and then something happens to them, or if he calls for a riot and it happens, do you believe he has a responsibility or is freedom of speech a get-out-of-jail card?

Ditto Farage - when he labels communities as targets and then harm comes to them, does he have a responsibility for his words?

And please don't just come back with another question, I have a very short attention span for quizzes. 😊

 

 

[benjii]

6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Far left are dangerous people

That's true.

What does it have to do with this?

[Sir Ralph]

57 minutes ago, benjii said:

I guess Kirk lost the debate.

He’s talking about the use of guns for self protection not murder. I’m not saying I agree with Americas approach to guns but highlighting what he was saying.

In some of these posts it appears that the actions resulting in his death can be justified to some degree. I think that speaks volumes and is pretty sick if that’s what anyone is suggesting. Nobody’s political opinions merit them being shot - fact.

Edited 23 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[benjii]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

He’s talking about the use of guns for self protection not murder. I’m not saying I agree with Americas approach to guns but highlighting what he was saying.

In some of these posts it appears that the actions resulting in his death can be justified to some degree. I think that speaks volumes and is pretty sick if that’s what anyone is suggesting. Nobody’s political opinions merit them being shot - fact.

Noted.

I'll rephrase from, "he lost the debate" to, "it's what he would have wanted".

[hypochondriac]

28 minutes ago, benjii said:

That's true.

What does it have to do with this?

Not saying I agree but some reports a gun has been found with bullets engraved with transgender and anti fascist wording on them which suggests it probably is someone on the far left who did this.

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

Noted.

I'll rephrase from, "he lost the debate" to, "it's what he would have wanted".

Tedious. The second paragraph still stands. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

6 hours ago, whelk said:

if I was using the idiot conspiracy theory line. Who gains? Trump.  Knocks Epstein out of the news and fuels his dangerous radical left want violence and free speech denied.  

I think the only question is whether trump was aiming to graze his ear and missed, or begrudged the thought of Kirk being more popular at some future point and couldn't help himself.