All things Labour Party

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Err, the word you're arguing against does work, it's just that you're suggesting something that doesn't. 

Err, I've suggested the 'words' don't work from the beginning. Note the 's' on the end of word...

It was FTF that claimed a different 'word' should be used so go argue your semantics with him..

I then gave alternatives when you asked for them. All of those alternatives would work if you changed the 'strange choice of words' as I previously pointed out...

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, egg said:

 

I'll repeat FTF's questions. What's a better word given that his supporters claim his treatment is politically motivated? 

It is politically motivated. It’s not because of his abhorrent views and anti semitism, if it was why did Sir Kier spend years working for him and trying to get him elected pm. His views haven’t changed one iota since Sir Kier accepted the offer to work for him. 

[aintforever]

Sir Kier is handling this well again, needs to make an example of Corbyn, it's all about the optics. The more Corbyn's lot moan the better it makes Kier look.

[Fan The Flames]

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Err, I've suggested the 'words' don't work from the beginning. Note the 's' on the end of word...

It was FTF that claimed a different 'word' should be used so go argue your semantics with him..

I then gave alternatives when you asked for them. All of those alternatives would work if you changed the 'strange choice of words' as I previously pointed out...

I didn't claim anything, I asked you a question, but as ever you struggle to keep up.

You are trying to claim that they are either exaggerating or using a loaded word, either argument is pathetic.

[Weston Super Saint]

No. I'm claiming he's being excluded from the Labour party for being anti Semitic.

He's not being 'persecuted' as his supporters claim and is suffering the same way that every other employee would suffer if they held the same abhorrent views.

To claim he is being 'persecuted' and liken what he is rightly going through is another abhorrent statement from his supporters and belittles the actual 'persuction' that the Jews suffered. 

I'm sure as an ardent supporter of the vile creature, that has passed you by though.

[Lord Duckhunter]

21 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No. I'm claiming he's being excluded from the Labour party for being anti Semitic.

He's not being 'persecuted' as his supporters claim and is suffering the same way that every other employee would suffer if they held the same abhorrent views.

 

He’s being excluding because it makes   Sir Kier look good. 
 

His views are exactly the same as they were when Sir Kier was trying to make him pm & serving in his administration. He’s either being persecuted for political reasons or Starmer was ok with an anti Semitic racist leading the party. It’s obvious which one it is. 

 

[aintforever]

23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s being excluding because it makes   Sir Kier look good. 
 

His views are exactly the same as they were when Sir Kier was trying to make him pm & serving in his administration. He’s either being persecuted for political reasons or Starmer was ok with an anti Semitic racist leading the party. It’s obvious which one it is. 

 

He wasn't suspended for being anti-semitic, it was for claiming people overstated the problem for political gain.

Edited 19 November, 2020 by aintforever

[Tamesaint]

Sir Kier playing a blinder.

[buctootim]

34 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s being excluding because it makes   Sir Kier look good. 
 

His views are exactly the same as they were when Sir Kier was trying to make him pm & serving in his administration. He’s either being persecuted for political reasons or Starmer was ok with an anti Semitic racist leading the party. It’s obvious which one it is. 

 

People's allegiances are to the party not to the leader. If you believed in Brexit you'd take the Brexit minister's job - even in Theresa May's government - exactly because you disagreed with her and wanted to advocate for your vision. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s being excluding because it makes   Sir Kier look good. 
 

His views are exactly the same as they were when Sir Kier was trying to make him pm & serving in his administration. He’s either being persecuted for political reasons or Starmer was ok with an anti Semitic racist leading the party. It’s obvious which one it is. 

 

His 'behaviour' and his inability to control the party have only come to light since he was replaced as the leader.

I argue he was suspended - and subsequently not handed back the 'whip' on this basis.

That does not constitute 'persecution' (even though politics are in play), but it's more akin to the punishment a traditional employee would receive in an equivalent position - basically being sacked...

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

His 'behaviour' and his inability to control the party have only come to light since he was replaced as the leader.

 

Behave. You don’t really believe this do you? 
 

 

Edited 19 November, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[Weston Super Saint]

23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Behave. You don’t really believe this do you? 
 

 

More than the claim that Corbyn is being 'persecuted'...

The Christians were persecuted by the Romans.

Jews were persecuted by the Nazis.

Corbyn is being punished for being a cock. Starmer is making an example of him for sure, but that's not persecution!

[Jonnyboy]

6 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No. I'm claiming he's being excluded from the Labour party for being anti Semitic.

He's not being 'persecuted' as his supporters claim and is suffering the same way that every other employee would suffer if they held the same abhorrent views.

To claim he is being 'persecuted' and liken what he is rightly going through is another abhorrent statement from his supporters and belittles the actual 'persuction' that the Jews suffered. 

I'm sure as an ardent supporter of the vile creature, that has passed you by though.

Perhaps you and Duckie could list some of JC's abhorrent views? 

[Jonnyboy]

5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s being excluding because it makes   Sir Kier look good. 
 

His views are exactly the same as they were when Sir Kier was trying to make him pm & serving in his administration. He’s either being persecuted for political reasons or Starmer was ok with an anti Semitic racist leading the party. It’s obvious which one it is. 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

[Fan The Flames]

7 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No. I'm claiming he's being excluded from the Labour party for being anti Semitic.

He's not being 'persecuted' as his supporters claim and is suffering the same way that every other employee would suffer if they held the same abhorrent views.

To claim he is being 'persecuted' and liken what he is rightly going through is another abhorrent statement from his supporters and belittles the actual 'persuction' that the Jews suffered. 

I'm sure as an ardent supporter of the vile creature, that has passed you by though.

I was wrong you didn't think it was used for exaggeration or as a loaded word but it was being used as exaggeration and as a loaded word. 

Your set ups are so obvious. 

He was suspended for what he said regarding the report, not for being an anti semite. His supporters will claim that he is against some of the policies of Israel not against Jews. Whilst there appears to be a horrible strain of lefties who are antisemitic, I don't think Corbyn is, but I don't really know. He was, though, shit at clamping down on it in the party.

So if one thinks he is not an anti semite and that there are no charges in this respect to face and as the whip is still being withheld from him then it's consistent to think he is being persecuted. Afterall you still can't cone up with a better word.

Of course the consequences of this political persecution is not on the scale of the persecution of jewish people, surely that's a given.for anyone hearing the statement. Or are you saying this word can never be used in any other context ever again because it might upset jewish people. So then faux outrage and cancel culture is alive and well on the right of the spectrum.

[Weston Super Saint]

Define 'persecuted'.

[sadoldgit]

9 hours ago, aintforever said:

He wasn't suspended for being anti-semitic, it was for claiming people overstated the problem for political gain.

100% this. Corbyn clearly is not an anti-Semite. His handling of anti- Semitic behaviour in the Labour Party is in question though. No one seems bothered about the lack of any report forthcoming as promised about Isamophobia in the Tory party though. Why no uproar by the right supporters here, in the interest of balance? Muslims are fair game, Jews are not? And god forbid anyone should say anything in support of the Palestinians for fear that they will be accused of anti-semitism.

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

100% this. Corbyn clearly is not an anti-Semite. 

What a load of old pony.

 

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. 
 

A bloke attends a wreath laying ceremony at the graveside of a notorious jew killer, bloke likes an anti Semitic mural, bloke writes in praise of a Jew hating book, bloke allows anti Semitic behaviour in his party. The  party the  bloke leads is investigated & found guilty by independent human rights body. Actions define if you’re anti Semitic. Just because someone deems himself not to be ,just because his supporters deem it,  doesn’t make it so. “Clearly” his behaviour is that of an anti Semite. 

Edited 20 November, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[buctootim]

44 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony.

 

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. 
 

A bloke attends a wreath laying ceremony at the graveside of a notorious jew killer, bloke likes an anti Semitic mural, bloke writes in praise of a Jew hating book, bloke allows anti Semitic behaviour in his party. The  party the  bloke leads is investigated & found guilty by independent human rights body. Actions define if you’re anti Semitic. Just because someone deems himself not to be ,just because his supporters deem it,  doesn’t make it so. “Clearly” his behaviour is that of an anti Semite. 

The whole thing has gone over your head. Corbyn is anti Zionist - he thinks the Palestinians have been shafted by Zionist factions in Israel. That doesn't make him anti semitic. However other elements of the pro Palestine lobby within Labour didn't make that distinction and their hate was directed at Jews in general. Corbyn is accused not being robust enough in handling that.    

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, buctootim said:

The whole thing has gone over your head. Corbyn is anti Zionist - he thinks the Palestinians have been shafted by Zionist factions in Israel. That doesn't make him anti semitic. However other elements of the pro Palestine lobby within Labour didn't make that distinction and their hate was directed at Jews in general. Corbyn is accused not being robust enough in handling that.    

Pony.

The mural he commented on & liked was anti Semitic, the book he wrote a forward to was anti Semitic and attending a ceremony honouring the Munich killer can’t be dismissed as anti Zionist. If Nigel Farage praised a racist mural, wrote a forward to a KKK book and attended a ceremony honouring James Earl Ray, you would be calling him a racist. 

[Fan The Flames]

4 hours ago, buctootim said:

The whole thing has gone over your head. Corbyn is anti Zionist - he thinks the Palestinians have been shafted by Zionist factions in Israel. That doesn't make him anti semitic. However other elements of the pro Palestine lobby within Labour didn't make that distinction and their hate was directed at Jews in general. Corbyn is accused not being robust enough in handling that.    

I think the antisemitism on the left stems from maxist theory rather than a pro Palestinian position and the Palestinian issue is a easy stick to beat Jews with. There are plenty of land issues that the left don't get exercised by.

This is probably a simplistic understanding as real life is more mixed up but is believed that the traditional stance of the marxist left is the notion that the means of production are not controlled by the working population but by those with and access to money. As banks were thought to by owned by Jewish people they were seen as the enemy of the people. Today world bankers is code for evil Jews to some people. It just the continuation of other antisemitic tropes like the blood libel.

[aintforever]

4 hours ago, buctootim said:

The whole thing has gone over your head. Corbyn is anti Zionist - he thinks the Palestinians have been shafted by Zionist factions in Israel. That doesn't make him anti semitic. However other elements of the pro Palestine lobby within Labour didn't make that distinction and their hate was directed at Jews in general. Corbyn is accused not being robust enough in handling that.    

This. 

[Weston Super Saint]

21 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Define 'persecuted'.

Amazing!

Not one person from our self proclaimed intelligentsia has given a definition for 'persecuted'!

Is that because the definition doesn't actually fit with what is happening to Corbyn?

[Fan The Flames]

49 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Amazing!

Not one person from our self proclaimed intelligentsia has given a definition for 'persecuted'!

Is that because the definition doesn't actually fit with what is happening to Corbyn?

Maybe because it's a really shit game.

[Jonnyboy]

6 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Pony.

The mural he commented on & liked was anti Semitic, the book he wrote a forward to was anti Semitic and attending a ceremony honouring the Munich killer can’t be dismissed as anti Zionist. If Nigel Farage praised a racist mural, wrote a forward to a KKK book and attended a ceremony honouring James Earl Ray, you would be calling him a racist. 

Well done you have three things all of which can easily be contested. Are you going to bother to read these actions? :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlGfnv4yjVTqKSXUyQJF1mVXyELQNkQm/view

[Weston Super Saint]

16 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Maybe because it's a really shit game.

That's the spirit, give up if the question is too tricky for you  

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

 Are you going to bother to read these actions? :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlGfnv4yjVTqKSXUyQJF1mVXyELQNkQm/view

No

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No

Go on, you'll learn something. 

[Jonnyboy]

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/antisemitism-of-starmer/?utm_source=mailpoet&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=new-article-from-jvl-newsletter-post-title_8

[egg]

2 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/antisemitism-of-starmer/?utm_source=mailpoet&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=new-article-from-jvl-newsletter-post-title_8

Absolutely nothing in there at all that suggests antisemitism from Starmer. 

[sadoldgit]

On 22/11/2020 at 23:11, egg said:

Absolutely nothing in there at all that suggests antisemitism from Starmer. 

He is married into a Jewish family, so you would hope not!

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 19/11/2020 at 14:33, Tamesaint said:

Sir Kier playing a blinder.

Yep. 

[Fan The Flames]

Kier Starmer is not cutting through at the moment. The vaccine rollout would have helped the tories bounce a bit. Still BJ has loads of time to hang himself before the next GE. Not literally hang himself obvs, don't want to upset the forum police.

[Jonnyboy]

Starmer could face a leadership challenge if the May locals go badly. 

Corbyn was critised for polling badly with people like Blair claiming "any other leader would be 20 points ahead." 

[whelk]

It is no surprise at all. Pandemic has been everyone’s focus and Sunak spending as wildly as any Labour voter could ever expect. Coupled with successful vaccination programme and mood of optimism which always benefit those in position, whoever was heading up Labour wouldn’t be making inroads.

This lot are capable of fucking up most things but luckily for them attention spans are ever shortening.

 

 

Edited 4 March, 2021 by whelk

[Turkish]

Stamer came across well at first and I thought he might finally be a credible leader of the opposition but recently he’s becoming more and more wet and pointless. 

[AlexLaw76]

The sooner Labour get their politics out of the arse of their Westminster elitist bubble, the better.

The country does not want a self-loathing, UK hating bunch of wet lettuces being in charge.

[aintforever]

As long as Sunak is spending billions paying people to sit on their arse doing nothing it’s always going to be tough for Labour, it will probably be a different story when the government have to start paying it all back though.

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

As long as Sunak is spending billions paying people to sit on their arse doing nothing it’s always going to be tough for Labour, it will probably be a different story when the government have to start paying it all back though.

Labour won't have to do much though if the Government continues to demonstrate political ineptitude by giving a 1% pay rise to nurses. They can  lose the "vaccine bounce" pretty quickly.

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The sooner Labour get their politics out of the arse of their Westminster elitist bubble, the better.

The country does not want a self-loathing, UK hating bunch of wet lettuces being in charge.

What does that mean?

Eton's de Pfeffel Johnson and his cabinet are mainly private school and oxbridge education, they are the elite.

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, Tamesaint said:

Labour won't have to do much though if the Government continues to demonstrate political ineptitude by giving a 1% pay rise to nurses. They can  lose the "vaccine bounce" pretty quickly.

Agree, 1% is a disgrace. The past year has not been fun for anyone but Nurses and front line staff have been fighting a war whilst most of us have been sat at home watching Netflix, I’m embarrassed that’s the best our country can offer them.

[Tamesaint]

5 hours ago, aintforever said:

Agree, 1% is a disgrace. The past year has not been fun for anyone but Nurses and front line staff have been fighting a war whilst most of us have been sat at home watching Netflix, I’m embarrassed that’s the best our country can offer them.

 I think it is a disgrace. So much for "clapping for carers" on a Thursday evening.

By the way , I am not a nurse and neither is my wife or any members of my family.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, aintforever said:

Agree, 1% is a disgrace. The past year has not been fun for anyone but Nurses and front line staff have been fighting a war whilst most of us have been sat at home watching Netflix, I’m embarrassed that’s the best our country can offer them.

Is that on top of the pay deal agreed in 2018 which still has its final step to run at the end of this month?

"War" 

[aintforever]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Is that on top of the pay deal agreed in 2018 which still has its final step to run at the end of this month?

"War" 

It has been like a war for some of those on the Covid wards, treating infected people without the correct PPE, watching their colleagues catch it and die, working round the clock dealing with so much death. Many are suffering from PTSD.

Its obviously nothing like storming the Normandy beaches but my point was that they have been through much more than most of us and after years of Tory cuts deserve to be rewarded IMO.

[rallyboy]

People who have voted for a decade to keep nurses' pay low, banged saucepans instead - the greedy bastards can't have a living wage and a percussion show, which is it to be?

But I'm staggered that Boris has shafted them on the quiet once the crisis is over, it's come as a massive surprise, unprecedented - big shiny words to impress the simple folk, followed by no action?

Translate that into Latin and you have the Johnson family motto.

 

[OldNick]

How about stopping the agencies taking our trained nurses and then hiring them back at massive premiums, its madness. Not sure how it can be stopped though

[buctootim]

45 minutes ago, OldNick said:

How about stopping the agencies taking our trained nurses and then hiring them back at massive premiums, its madness. Not sure how it can be stopped though

I think that is less of an issue than it used to be because many NHS trusts are now operating their own bank system offering flexible working to ex staff nurses. 

Pay is often the focus of discontent in the NHS - but its not primarily about that - its more to do with being overworked and understaffed, especially for doctors. Ironically when they got a big pay increase a few years ago it worsened the shortage because then many could afford to go part time and escape the relentless pressure of 10 and 12 hour days 

Edited 6 March, 2021 by buctootim

[saint1977]

6 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I think that is less of an issue than it used to be because many NHS trusts are now operating their own bank system offering flexible working to ex staff nurses. 

Pay is often the focus of discontent in the NHS - but its not really about that - its more about being overworked and understaffed, especially for doctors. Ironically when doctors got a big pay increase a few years ago it worsened the shortage because then many doctors could afford to go part time and escape the relentless pressure of 10 and 12 hour days 

Yep, right on both fronts having a partner who works for the NHS. The upcoming reforms proposed by the Govt will undo a lot of the Lansley era driven by Cameron by putting more decisions on recruitment and commissioning in the hands of local partnerships and away from say CCGs established in that period. The issue of flexibility will become more pressing I’m afraid as some nurses and doctors will have burnout and need flexible patterns to stay in practice. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Is that on top of the pay deal agreed in 2018 which still has its final step to run at the end of this month?

"War" 

Disgraceful...

Dont you know everyone employed by the NHS is a hero, never has our health been owed to so few. They were fighting a war for us. They deserve a 25% pay rise, whilst the rest of us mere mortals deserve Fuck all. I bet you didn’t even clap them.....

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, aintforever said:

It has been like a war for some of those on the Covid wards, treating infected people without the correct PPE, watching their colleagues catch it and die, working round the clock dealing with so much death. Many are suffering from PTSD.

 

Oh dear!

Treating people on Covid wards is essentially the role of the NHS isn't it?

Do you have anything concrete to back up your claim that the NHS was treating people without the correct PPE?  As far as I recall, there was a shortage of PPE in care homes (not part of the NHS), but the NHS itself has never actually run out.  Maybe if NHS staff were using the incorrect PPE that would be a training issue?

"watching their colleagues die" - again, anything concrete that suggests that NHS staff have died at rates that defy the trends for age groups / ethniicity in the UK?  Pretty disingenous to imply that other people around the country haven't also withnessed their colleagues dying as a result of covid.

"working round the clock" - absolute horseshit! The standard working week for NHS staff is 37.5 hours per week ( https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-conditions-of-employment ).  Anything more than that is voluntary as no-one can be forced to work overtime and even when they do they are very well compensated for it!  This may be different for Junior Doctors but that is not specific to covid.

"dealing with so much death".  Only a small proportion of the 1.2 million NHS employees will be working on the 'front line' and they will be the same ones that were doing so before covid.  Sadly, death is part and parcel of the job!

"many are suffering from PTSD" - another headline you've swallowed hook, line and sinker!