Do Saints improve players better than other teams?

[Noodles34]

Anyway, back to the OP, was Burley shyte?

 

is wresting fixed?

[Dark Munster]

Ok, how about a list of players who left Saints and thrived?

 

- Bale

- Kevin Phillips

- Shearer

- Kevin Davies, sort of, he did pretty well for a long time with Bolton

- Chivers

 

Um .....

[Shance]

dont think burley was rehabilitated in any way at saints. he was shyte and we got lucky that scotland lost their mind and hired him (for a bit)

not worked since, I dont think

 

Ipswich Town - During an 8 year reign he took Ipswich to 3 play off semi finals before winning promotion to the Prem at the 4th attempt. The following season he guided the club to 5th place and qualified for the EUFA cup (yes Batman, 5th place). He won the Manager of the Year award in 2000-1.

Derby - Burley managed to halt Derbys alarming slide towards the relegation zone and kept the club up comfortably. The following season was a struggle with Derby finishing one place lower than the previous season but there were sign of improvement. This showed in the 2004-5 season when despite spending no money on new players Burley transformed Derby from relegation contenders to a fourth place finish and play off semi finalists.

Hearts - A stunning start to his tenure as Hearts manager saw them top of the SPL after the first 10 games winning 8.

Saints - as we know, play offs in 2006-7.

Yep Batman, shyte.

 

I said he was shyte at saints to the question of being here was some sort of rehabilitation for him.......when it clearly was not

 

No, you said he was shyte.

 

Batman said he was shyte. I pointed out that he wasn't, or at least not shyte at ever club he managed. HTH.

 

I kicked of my point with.....

I think went on to qualify with my thoughts on it

 

Here you go Batman. "He was shyte..."

 

why are you being so weird. it is quite clear I was following on my opening point about his time at saints. which was a response to the OP...about time at saints

 

 

now doubt you will want the last word...so what ever

 

I was responding to this post from Batman in which he says that Burley "was shyte." If you want to narrow it down to his time at Southampton then in his one full season as manager he took us to the play offs. If you and Batman think that was "shyte" sobeit.

 

I am not being weird. I have just responded to your point. If you want the last word, go ahead.

 

If you read it again you will see that he didn't say he was shyte at Southampton. He said he was shyte. I haven't hi jacked anything I have just responded to what Batman said. You seem to want to make a big deal about it. Why is that? Serious stuff this internet isn't it?

 

You are a fecking odd-bod

I have seen plenty of others accusing you of making stuff up about other people's posts. Now I can see it

 

My point started with a preamble about his time at saints. The further part did NOT need qualifying about his time at saints as that was made clear in the beginning: that part after my initial qualification was even elaborated by an event of his time at saints.

 

Should I have made a point of his time away from saints, that WOULD need qualification

 

Fecking hell

 

What have I made up? You say quite clearly "He was shyte" in your second sentence. I haven't worked out how to doctor other peoples posts so it was what you typed.

 

By the way, did you know that at the point that he left, he had the best points per game ratio of any of our post war managers, including Bates and McMenemy?

 

Do you know what? I did. And do you know what. Nowhere does it say "He was shyte at Southampton." On my PC it says "He was shyte...."

 

Why is this such a big deal for you? You do get carried away by the least important things.

 

Well apparently it is. But also it is more important to have a row about what was said against what was meant. I think it is called a diversion.

 

Now you have said he was Shyte. I can see those words in a post of yours.

 

Make your mind up.

 

And we pay a fiver for this

 

Perhaps you ought to ask Fry to drop it? Is it really such a big deal?

 

Jesus ****ing christ.

[Deano6]

You could probably add Martina to this list as many here had written him off as a pub footballer when he first joined us but he has shown he can do a job since.

 

Been a terrible defender but scored a beautiful volley?

 

I saw him against both Arsenal and West Ham away and he was a liability in both games. He was being signalled to come off right before he fluffed a header right to the opposition to allow them to score the equaliser at Boleyn Ground.

[sadoldgit]

So about Yoshida's level then? Seriously, I thought he had improved.

[sadoldgit]

Jesus ****ing christ.

 

Ah, the joys of the internet! Why did you leave out Frys contributions though? Him and Hypo are like herpes. Once you get them you've got them for life!

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Ah, the joys of the internet! Why did you leave out Frys contributions though? Him and Hypo are like herpes. Once you get them you've got them for life!

 

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I don't think we improve players better than any other team. I think we recruit better than most teams. The rest falls into place.

[saintadjg]

Apart from the 6-3 against 10-man Utd he was utter shit for us.

 

 

Couldn’t disagree more.we played some great stuff at times under Souness .

[Patrick Bateman]

Ok, how about a list of players who left Saints and thrived?

 

- Bale

- Kevin Phillips

- Shearer

- Kevin Davies, sort of, he did pretty well for a long time with Bolton

- Chivers

 

Um .....

 

Define "thrived" though? There are plenty of players that have moved on and had nice little careers; higher earnings? More internal appearances? European football?

 

I find it a bit arrogant (not picking on you here, just replying to the whole thread) to suggest that Saints improve players and most fail when they leave. I wouldn't call more internal appearances, higher earnings and European football as failure?

 

Sure, their club's new fans may not appreciate them like we did (Morgan), but I wouldn't say he's failed.

 

You could also add players such as Bridge, Svensson, Crouch etc to that list surely?

[sadoldgit]

You have to figure that coaches do make a difference, if not, why coach? If that is the case then I am sure every club you go to will have success stories as well as failures. How much of it is down to coaching and how much of it is down to maturing? I remember Mick Channon saying that Peter Osgood was the most gifted young player he had seen. Once he grew up and his body changed he wasn't as good. Bale on the other hand showed great promise as a youngster and really thrived as he grew. Or was that down to Arry's brilliant coaching?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

You have to figure that coaches do make a difference, if not, why coach? If that is the case then I am sure every club you go to will have success stories as well as failures. How much of it is down to coaching and how much of it is down to maturing? I remember Mick Channon saying that Peter Osgood was the most gifted young player he had seen. Once he grew up and his body changed he wasn't as good. Bale on the other hand showed great promise as a youngster and really thrived as he grew. Or was that down to Arry's brilliant coaching?

 

If coaching made a big difference then good Managers wouldn't spend lots of money on players. Coaching can make a difference - compared to the overall quality of a player in the first place I think it makes a little difference. The player does need the right environment to thrive - the right tactics for starters, but nothing makes a difference in football like ability. So that is why recruitment is so important. Identify the talent and then identify if they fit your club. Coaching is important in order to ensure a player can perform, but it doesn't make a player better. He has to have the potential. If he doesn't you can't coach it.

[sadoldgit]

Isnt that the point though, take someone and make them better? A player like Walcott took inspiration by watching Henri play and in training. Some players are naturals, some have ability but need others to help them get the most out of that ability.

[Lighthouse]

You could probably add Martina to this list as many here had written him off as a pub footballer when he first joined us but he has shown he can do a job since.

 

No he's sh*te, although he was quite good at Derby.

[Lighthouse]

I still don't think getting us to the play offs constitutes shyte?

 

We scraped into 6th on the last day of the season. Given the money spent on an already talented squad, it would be akin to Man U scraping into 6th this season and climbing it a success. Anyone half decent would have taken that squad up automatically, we had an embarrassment of riches.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Isnt that the point though, take someone and make them better? A player like Walcott took inspiration by watching Henri play and in training. Some players are naturals, some have ability but need others to help them get the most out of that ability.

 

I suppose it depends on the definition of coaching for the purposes of the discussion. If you mean the mental aspect of nurturing talent and helping them progress then it can make a difference. If you mean coaching a player to be a better player in terms of technical ability etc. then I don't think that makes a difference at all.

 

For me the best teams buy the best players and then their biggest challenge is having the right Manager looking after that talent. They don't buy players and then seek to make them better - they like to buy the end product (or as close to it) and then have them perform immediately. A part of this will be because they need instant results of course, but if it was as easy to just have good coaching they wouldn't buy the finished product and would just continually develop youth players for the first team and save a lot of money.

 

I'm not saying good coaching doesn't contribute, but I just don't think it is one of the most important factors. Buy good talent and play them in the right circumstance and you've cracked it I think.

[simo]

We scraped into 6th on the last day of the season. Given the money spent on an already talented squad, it would be akin to Man U scraping into 6th this season and climbing it a success. Anyone half decent would have taken that squad up automatically, we had an embarrassment of riches.

 

No we never , how many players in that squad have gone on to better their careers after that season ?

[Lighthouse]

No we never , how many players in that squad have gone on to better their careers after that season ?

 

I assume you're joking but on the off chance you aren't; Bale, Surman, Pele, Jones, Dyer, Baird, Kelvin, Rasiak, Guthrie and Best all went on to play in the Premier League. Prutton, Lundekvam and BWP all had previous experience. Not to mention Skacel and Saganowski.

[sadoldgit]

We scraped into 6th on the last day of the season. Given the money spent on an already talented squad, it would be akin to Man U scraping into 6th this season and climbing it a success. Anyone half decent would have taken that squad up automatically, we had an embarrassment of riches.

 

We didn't do too well the season before and I certainly wouldn't say we were anything like Manchester United in our circumstances. Yes we spent money but spending money is no guarantee of success. We had a decent side but lacked consistency. We were unlucky not to reach the play off finals. Getting into the play offs is an achievement no matter what your circumstances and it is something that Burley managed with 3 different clubs. It is a very tough division to get out of, as many "big" clubs have found out over the years.

[buctootim]

Saints do well in maximising the potential of pretty much every player we have. Most signings improve with us and those that leave often stagnate, go backwards or not really fulfil the potential they had. Asttute scouting and signing helps of course, seeing potential or ability others dont see, its not just good coaching.

[Special K]

Saints do well in maximising the potential of pretty much every player we have. Most signings improve with us and those that leave often stagnate, go backwards or not really fulfil the potential they had. Asttute scouting and signing helps of course, seeing potential or ability others dont see, its not just good coaching.

 

Yeah, I agree. Perhaps with those who have left to go onto bigger clubs, there could be an element of their ego being massaged to the extent they believe they do not have to improve further, or perhaps they find the environment more disruptive than down here. Not sure, but the majority seem to falter rather than continue to improve.

 

Onto the signings we make, the fact we take mid table, lower league or foreign players who still have to prove themselves makes us less likely to fail with a signing, but as you say, the scouting and coaching needs to be top drawer to start with - we don't seem to suffer like the North East clubs, for example, with knee jerk foreign signings that really don't make an impression.

 

Good training facilities help too.

[Give it to Ron]

We didn't do too well the season before and I certainly wouldn't say we were anything like Manchester United in our circumstances. Yes we spent money but spending money is no guarantee of success. We had a decent side but lacked consistency. We were unlucky not to reach the play off finals. Getting into the play offs is an achievement no matter what your circumstances and it is something that Burley managed with 3 different clubs. It is a very tough division to get out of, as many "big" clubs have found out over the years.

 

If you think Burley did well with us then you really need those rose tinted glasses checked out. He was abysmal in his team selections, formations and I certainly remember us having 6 players all playing on the 'wrong' side in one game like fish out of water!

In one game at home we were 2 down with about 35 to go and playing terrible - he made subs with 2 minutes to go!

I know you don't like seeing things against the club but Whiskey George going to Scotland was a blessing for us as he had lost the plot.

[sadoldgit]

If you think Burley did well with us then you really need those rose tinted glasses checked out. He was abysmal in his team selections, formations and I certainly remember us having 6 players all playing on the 'wrong' side in one game like fish out of water!

In one game at home we were 2 down with about 35 to go and playing terrible - he made subs with 2 minutes to go!

I know you don't like seeing things against the club but Whiskey George going to Scotland was a blessing for us as he had lost the plot.

 

We also started to win matches away from home for the first time regularly under Burley including putting 6 past a decent Wolves side at their place. I will say again that at the point he left he was still the best manager in terms of points won per games including Bates and Lawrie Mac. I know he wasn't everyone's favourite but I didn't have a problem with him and we were unfortunate not to make the play offs finals. At the point he left he wasn't the only one to have lost the plot. He was having players sold from under him and the club wasn't being run particularly well. He wasn't the best manager we have ever had, but he certainly wasn't the worst IMHO. I do accept that his persistence in playing Germaine Wright was a bit odd though!

Edited 25 February, 2016 by sadoldgit

[CB Fry]

We scraped into 6th on the last day of the season. Given the money spent on an already talented squad, it would be akin to Man U scraping into 6th this season and climbing it a success. Anyone half decent would have taken that squad up automatically, we had an embarrassment of riches.

 

Indeed.

 

I assume you're joking but on the off chance you aren't; Bale, Surman, Pele, Jones, Dyer, Baird, Kelvin, Rasiak, Guthrie and Best all went on to play in the Premier League. Prutton, Lundekvam and BWP all had previous experience. Not to mention Skacel and Saganowski.

 

Indeed again. Also a team very much constructed by Burley with players he knew well and hand-picked - Rasiak, Skacel, Wright - plus other big names for the level we were at.

 

Scraping that team to 6th on the last day was appalling, acheiving the barest of bare minimums with the resources given.

 

If you think Burley did well with us then you really need those rose tinted glasses checked out. He was abysmal in his team selections, formations and I certainly remember us having 6 players all playing on the 'wrong' side in one game like fish out of water!

In one game at home we were 2 down with about 35 to go and playing terrible - he made subs with 2 minutes to go!

I know you don't like seeing things against the club but Whiskey George going to Scotland was a blessing for us as he had lost the plot.

 

He took over when we were 12/13th and left when we were 12/13th. No progress whatsoever, sowing the seeds for what came later. He was dreadful. (For SOG's benefit - Dreadful for us. Dreadful for Southampton FC. When I say he was dreadful I am specifically talking about him being dreadful for Southampton Football Club. Clear?)

[Lighthouse]

We didn't do too well the season before and I certainly wouldn't say we were anything like Manchester United in our circumstances. Yes we spent money but spending money is no guarantee of success. We had a decent side but lacked consistency. We were unlucky not to reach the play off finals. Getting into the play offs is an achievement no matter what your circumstances and it is something that Burley managed with 3 different clubs. It is a very tough division to get out of, as many "big" clubs have found out over the years.

 

No doubt he did achieve varying levels of success at previous clubs but with us he failed. To say he was better than a disinterested Redknapp, who had only spent £90k on the squad which got relegated really isn't saying much.

 

If anything the second summer properly summed up his time at Saints. Okay he could do nothing to prevent the departures of Bale, Baird and Kenny but how he reinvested the money was just hopeless. John and Vignal were decent enough signings but his complete ignorance of our defensive frailties, combined with a midfield recruitment policy bordering on fetish was just bizarre.

 

Having spent about £10m, he left us floundering in mid table, exactly as he found us 2 years previously, albeit with a huge wage bill which put us into administration.

[notnowcato]

Couldn’t disagree more.we played some great stuff at times under Souness .

 

nah, he was shyte

[John Boy Saint]

If you think Burley did well with us then you really need those rose tinted glasses checked out. He was abysmal in his team selections, formations and I certainly remember us having 6 players all playing on the 'wrong' side in one game like fish out of water!

In one game at home we were 2 down with about 35 to go and playing terrible - he made subs with 2 minutes to go!

I know you don't like seeing things against the club but Whiskey George going to Scotland was a blessing for us as he had lost the plot.

I always felt he pulled in too many of his old players/mates from his UK managerial tour. They played like the manager was their mate which gave them the air of putting in a 50% performance without the fear of castigation.

[a1ex2001]

Seems a rose tinted perspective to me! Plenty of players don't come here and improve lets put the Gaston elephant out there as an example or mayuka? All clubs have some players that work out and some that don't we are going through a good spell at the minute but we've had plenty of bad runs in the past Andreas Jakobson anyone?

[Lighthouse]

Seems a rose tinted perspective to me! Plenty of players don't come here and improve lets put the Gaston elephant out there as an example or mayuka? All clubs have some players that work out and some that don't we are going through a good spell at the minute but we've had plenty of bad runs in the past Andreas Jakobson anyone?

 

On the whole though we do have a good record with developing players over event years. All clubs have flops but few have sold so many players at such large profits like we have and are likely to repeat.

[Golden Balls]

Had to stop reading this thread pretty early on so I'm sure he's probably got a mention. But Ryan Bertrand is a great example. His career obviously started with a bang. Winning the Champions League. However he was often not played and eventually loaned to Villa. He didn't do at all well there and when we signed him I was a little underwhelmed. However, he's been sensational.

[a1ex2001]

On the whole though we do have a good record with developing players over event years. All clubs have flops but few have sold so many players at such large profits like we have and are likely to repeat.

 

I'd agree we are going through a good patch but anyone who expects it to last indefinitely is going to get a nasty surprise!

[a1ex2001]

Had to stop reading this thread pretty early on so I'm sure he's probably got a mention. But Ryan Bertrand is a great example. His career obviously started with a bang. Winning the Champions League. However he was often not played and eventually loaned to Villa. He didn't do at all well there and when we signed him I was a little underwhelmed. However, he's been sensational.

 

Interestingly he was my first choice to replace Shaw, he was obviously decent and with a point to prove. I don't remember him being terrible for villa!

[Pancake]

Interestingly he was my first choice to replace Shaw, he was obviously decent and with a point to prove. I don't remember him being terrible for villa!

 

He was really bad for Villa. My Villa supporting kind-of-brother-in-law text me the day he signed claiming we had replaced the best English left back in the league with the worst.

[sadoldgit]

No doubt he did achieve varying levels of success at previous clubs but with us he failed. To say he was better than a disinterested Redknapp, who had only spent £90k on the squad which got relegated really isn't saying much.

 

If anything the second summer properly summed up his time at Saints. Okay he could do nothing to prevent the departures of Bale, Baird and Kenny but how he reinvested the money was just hopeless. John and Vignal were decent enough signings but his complete ignorance of our defensive frailties, combined with a midfield recruitment policy bordering on fetish was just bizarre.

 

Having spent about £10m, he left us floundering in mid table, exactly as he found us 2 years previously, albeit with a huge wage bill which put us into administration.

 

I think it is a bit harsh to lay the blame of administration with Burley unless you can prove that the wages and signing on fees were down to him and not the Board. Also he only had one full season with us in which we made the play offs, so I am not sure how he failed. When he left we were as close to the play offs as we were the relegation zone but I agree that had he stayed we probably would have ended up still mid table. I do accept that I am in the minority when it comes down to not thinking Burley was shyte.

[100%Red&White]

We're still waiting on Juanmi, "one for the future", was loved at Malaga and was breaking into the National squad but hasn't particularly "improved" significantly here. Yet.

 

They still think very highly of him over there, there was a banner with his name at their game last weekend, can't see that happening for too many of our ex-players

 

 

(left of pic top tier)

[sadoldgit]

Going off at a bit of a tangent here but I think it is interesting to compare the various managers stats over the years as those we think of as good were sometimes not quite so good and those we think of as shyte sometimes not so bad. My original table was based on points won against matches played, this is is slightly different in that it just gives a win % and ignores drawn games, but it isn't far off the other table:-

 

Bates 39.2%, McMenemy 41.8%, Nicholl 34.1%, Branfoot 28.9%, Ball 32.8%, Merrington 31.3%, Souness 29.2%, Jones 32.7%, Hoddle 42.3%, Gray 31.6%, Strachan 35.5%,

Wigley 0%, Sturrock 38.5%, Wigley 17.7%, Redknapp 26.5%, Bassett & Wise 33.3%, Burley 41.3%, Gorman & Dodd 16.7%, Pearson 21.4%, Poortvliet 25%, Wotte 22.2%,

Pardew 53.1%, Wilkins 0%, Adkins 54%, Pochettino 38.3%, Koeman 45.7%.

 

It will be pointed out that managers managed in different divisions but they can only play what is in front of them and their squads would reflect the divisions they played in.

 

To keep this on track I would say that only Pochettino has gone on to improve his performance with another club after us.

[hypochondriac]

Win percentages with no context don't have much to do with how good a manager has been. Pearson for example didn't have a great win percentage but did well under the circumstances.

[notnowcato]

haha Herpes...

 

Jose Fonte's rise is my favourite. What an outstanding Premier League centre back he is, a great leader and top bloke.

[Charlie Wayman]

For sure we have one of the best coaching staffs in the PL right now so players should improve. Sadly that lot who jumped ship and head for White Hart Lane are probably the other.

[sadoldgit]

Win percentages with no context don't have much to do with how good a manager has been. Pearson for example didn't have a great win percentage but did well under the circumstances.

 

Nigel Pearson lost 5% more of his games than Harry Redknapp did. Are you saying that if the periods of their tenure had been changed Pearson would have kept us up?

[sadoldgit]

Anyway, back to the OP, was Burley shyte?

 

is wresting fixed?

 

If I was a manager I wouldn't think that a 42% win ratio was too shabby.

[Dark Munster]

Couldn’t disagree more.we played some great stuff at times under Souness .

A drop of "great stuff" in an ocean of shit (including the classic 7-1 humping by Everton). We were in the relegation zone most of the season, and in the end survived by one point. And any manager who can be fooled into playing Ali Dia is either an imbecile or couldn't give a toss (in his case a bit of both I think).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that tosser.

[Lighthouse]

If I was a manager I wouldn't think that a 42% win ratio was too shabby.

 

In the Championship, with probably the biggest wage and certainly the largest transfer budget, yes it was. When you're out spending everybody but the other team is equal or better in more than half the games you play, you're doing something wrong.

[sadoldgit]

In the Championship, with probably the biggest wage and certainly the largest transfer budget, yes it was. When you're out spending everybody but the other team is equal or better in more than half the games you play, you're doing something wrong.

 

Or maybe others just did things better? How much have Leicester spent compared to the Big Four? How much have Citeh spent on trying to be the biggest club in Europe? Out of 26 different managers since Ted Bates only Glenn Hoddle, Alan Pardew, Nigel Adkins and Ron K have a better win ratio. Burley had a better win ratio than Pochettino. Still, we will never agree so time to move on.

[Give it to Ron]

Nigel Pearson lost 5% more of his games than Harry Redknapp did. Are you saying that if the periods of their tenure had been changed Pearson would have kept us up?

 

Yes without a doubt in my mind. I knew a few people at Staplewood at that time and they were so impressed with him. He pulled us together and upwards with a club in turmoil and the ghost of loveable rosey cheeks.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sadoldgit]

I wasn't a big fan of Pearson's and recall the football was poor even though he did what he needed to do. In hindsight it would have been better to stick with him longer though.

[hypochondriac]

Or maybe others just did things better? How much have Leicester spent compared to the Big Four? How much have Citeh spent on trying to be the biggest club in Europe? Out of 26 different managers since Ted Bates only Glenn Hoddle, Alan Pardew, Nigel Adkins and Ron K have a better win ratio. Burley had a better win ratio than Pochettino. Still, we will never agree so time to move on.

 

Why are you blindly quoting win percentages with no context? How is any of that relevant without talking about the circumstances surrounding them?

[sadoldgit]

Why are you blindly quoting win percentages with no context? How is any of that relevant without talking about the circumstances surrounding them?

 

Herpes returns

 

 

The context isn't difficult to work out, even for someone like you.

Edited 26 February, 2016 by sadoldgit

[Lighthouse]

Herpes returns

 

 

The context isn't difficult to work out, even for someone like you.

 

Humour us.

 

What exactly are you suggesting his win percentage is evidence of? There are old men managing over 50s pub teams on a Sunday morning who have a 90% win rate. Would you say they are of a higher calibre than Burley?

[Batman]

Is he still going on about it?

 

Jeez