Redslo Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 what had Steven Davis achieved at 20? Genuine question! Was he tearing up the league with pace, aggression and an ability to tackle? He was playing his first season for the Aston Villa having graduated just spent two years with their youth set up. He got 91 games in three years with them scoring 5 goals. I have no idea how good he was and I quickly couldn't locate individual year by year stats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Davis http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=35928 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 I found Tadic more frustrating to be honest Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMojoRisin Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 60 + premier league appearances and 0 goals to show for it for a supposed dead ball specialist and attacking midfielder is not a good enough return for someone who is suppose to be a future England player. Mark my words Benali will have scored more goals for Saints than JWP when he leaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 60 + premier league appearances and 0 goals to show for it for a supposed dead ball specialist and attacking midfielder is not a good enough return for someone who is suppose to be a future England player. Mark my words Benali will have scored more goals for Saints than JWP when he leaves will that include own goals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 As big a talent as I think he is, he's still doesn't seem to fit in our system. I keep reading about we need another striker, but our biggest problem is No. 10. Both Davis and JWP are not goal scorers. Fantastic work rate. I can see why Ronald has made this position priority in the transfer window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 I know he's a future england captain supposedly but he's always on fringes of games. His shooting poor and even set pieces are getting worse? Hit the target with every chance he had... It certainly isn't his fault that we lost... get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 60 + premier league appearances and 0 goals to show for it for a supposed dead ball specialist and attacking midfielder is not a good enough return for someone who is suppose to be a future England player. Mark my words Benali will have scored more goals for Saints than JWP when he leaves Steven Davis is in the prime of his career and hasn't scored a league goal for us in 35 games & counting. Either our attacking midfielders are all awful in front of goal, in which case they deserve equal criticism, or our tactics aren't conducive to getting goals through the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Steven Davis is in the prime of his career and hasn't scored a league goal for us in 35 games & counting. Either our attacking midfielders are all awful in front of goal, in which case they deserve equal criticism, or our tactics aren't conducive to getting goals through the middle. Hello Alan, enjoying Swansea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Not sure what he does apart from whipping in a few decent crosses. Looks incapable of scoring, no pace, and far too lightweight. He seems like a good kid, but nowhere near good enough for us. We will probably see him in the Championship in the next few years. I think it's a common belief he is a good player just because he has come up through the academy, but there's a reason no one has tried to buy him Have you actually watched more than the odd 5 seconds ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellone Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Would this debate be happening if JWP didn't regularly get himself into shooting positions. That's not a skill, it's a talent. Accuracy is a skill and can be learnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Would this debate be happening if JWP didn't regularly get himself into shooting positions. That's not a skill, it's a talent. Accuracy is a skill and can be learnt. Or its a function of the system and his advanced role. If anything, he should be supporting Pelle more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellone Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Or its a function of the system and his advanced role. If anything, he should be supporting Pelle more. There is often a barrier between him and Pelle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasiak-9- Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Very 'meh' today from both JWP as well as Davis. The FK in the first half was nowhere near and he put in several poor crosses. The ability to bend the ball doth not necessarily a good delivery make. Still adds very little defensively either. Not good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 The commentators on the stream I was watching said they thought he had the best dead ball delivery in the whole league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convict Colony Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 The commentators on the stream I was watching said they thought he had the best dead ball delivery in the whole league. yeah was listening to the same stream, give me the 10th best delivery in the league with 10 goals a season instead though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Or its a function of the system and his advanced role. If anything, he should be supporting Pelle more. Agree. There was a moment first half today where Pelle (I think) played it into Mane on the edge of the box and he backheeled it beautifully for JWP to run through on goal. Except JWP had stopped. Doesn't have the instinct that a Lampard, Sigurdsson type show in that sort of poaition and until he is braver in his movement off the ball we will never get a goal return from him. Otherwise had a tidy enough game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JxgrSaint Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Still needs to work on his shooting. Couldn't hit water if he fell off a boat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Ward Prowse is a class act and he is only 19, I am surprised that nobody can recognise that. He is the focus of much of what we do. The goals will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Ward Prowse is a class act and he is only 19, I am surprised that nobody can recognise that. He is the focus of much of what we do. The goals will come. Really? He's younger than Reed? Would never have guessed that. I'd drop him for West Ham, I just don't think, with their physicality, that it's gonna be his sort of game. I'd bring Tadic back in, in his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Ward Prowse is a class act and he is only 19, I am surprised that nobody can recognise that. He is the focus of much of what we do. The goals will come. Will they - when?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Will they - when?! Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 7 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Agree. There was a moment first half today where Pelle (I think) played it into Mane on the edge of the box and he backheeled it beautifully for JWP to run through on goal. Except JWP had stopped. Doesn't have the instinct that a Lampard, Sigurdsson type show in that sort of poaition and until he is braver in his movement off the ball we will never get a goal return from him. Otherwise had a tidy enough game. Remember it. He was poor again today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Remember it. He was poor again today. He wasn't poor IMO. He just hasn't got a goalscoring instinct. Most of his passing was excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austsaint Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 Ward Prowse is a class act and he is only 19, I am surprised that nobody can recognise that. He is the focus of much of what we do. The goals will come. JWP is 20 and he is certainly not a class act (yet, maybe never). He did pass tidily today and as usual ran around a lot but he was leaky in defensive duties and gave the ball away in dangerous areas. He is getting every opportunity but time for a rest against the Hammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 7 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 7 February, 2015 He wasn't poor IMO. He just hasn't got a goalscoring instinct. Most of his passing was excellent. I thought he was today. He will improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK the 2nd Posted 7 February, 2015 Share Posted 7 February, 2015 He had a great game today! I was about to say he looks a future England player but not sure that's a compliment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimatt Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 The JWP-Davis midfield doesn't work great IMO. They both sit too deep when 1 or both of them need to push in to the box. Just leaves Pelle isolated. It was a lot better when we had the midfield 3 of Wanyama/Spider/Cork because they could get forward knowing they had capable defensive mids beside them; 10 goals for those three, 0 for Davis/JWP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintTex Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 The JWP-Davis midfield doesn't work great IMO. They both sit too deep when 1 or both of them need to push in to the box. Just leaves Pelle isolated. It was a lot better when we had the midfield 3 of Wanyama/Spider/Cork because they could get forward knowing they had capable defensive mids beside them; 10 goals for those three, 0 for Davis/JWP.they were both playing so deep that our left back, who isn't a left back, was the one to deliver the pass that led to the winning shot. maybe it's partly by design, I don't know. It's hard to argue with our defensive success this season, a deep sitting midfield is definitely a component of that success. It must frustrate the hell out of Pelle though. At this point, his opportunities are going to mostly come on balls off the goalkeeper or the post and/or crosses deep from either side. (all around the 6 yard box). Anything in the middle beyond that, he is going to have to create all on his own. Plus, we all know a reliable second striker would be useful. Pelle has played A LOT of minutes. He has got to be knackered. I looked it up. Pelle is 10th amongst all players in minutes played in the League. In fact, of the Top 25 players with the most minutes, 23 are DBs or GKs. the other two non DBs or GKs in the Top 25? ... Pelle at 10th and Hazard at 12th. I don't think it should be much of a surprise that his goal scoring has dipped as his minutes have piled up. would a lineup like this be affective the Wednesday to give Pelle a rest? Or maybe for the second half? Bring Tadic on for Pelle. --------------Forster-------------- Clyne --Fonte-- Gardos-- Yoshida ----Schneiderlin-- Wanyama----- Tadic--------Davis------------ Elia --------------Mane----------------- Or is the 10 day rest after West Ham before Liverpool better served? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Reading this thread it is a bit frightening how little we know about football really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Codger Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Really? He's younger than Reed? Would never have guessed that. I'd drop him for West Ham, I just don't think, with their physicality, that it's gonna be his sort of game. I'd bring Tadic back in, in his place. Given West Ham's physicality, it won't be Tadic's sort of game, either. Harrison Reed would manage well, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Given West Ham's physicality, it won't be Tadic's sort of game, either. Harrison Reed would manage well, though. Are they actually that physical. Will probably have Sakho and Valencia up front, with Noble, Downing, Song etc in midfield. They aren't lightweight, but I wouldn't hugely change what we do because of them. I'm sure Mourinho didn't drop Hazard and Fabregas when they played WH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch01 Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Do those criticising JWP think that: a) He isn't good enough to be in our team and likely never will be b) He isn't good enough to be in our team at the moment and should have a reduced role (replaced by X) until he shows more improvement c) He is good enough for our team but just isn't performing well at the moment / for the whole of this season I think he could be contributing more than he is (he should have had 3 goals since the turn of the year based on chances that have fallen his way) but I'm perfectly happy to show a bit of patience with a young CM who shows lots of ability but just hasn't put all the pieces together yet. What was Morgan like at 19? Was he starting every game for a team that's third in the country? And who should be playing instead? Say he's still not imposing himself on games in three years time (still young at 23) then I could see why people might be disappointed, but if he was the complete package now he would be worth £25m. We've got a great player there and he's going to get better and better - give it time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasiak-9- Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Given West Ham's physicality, it won't be Tadic's sort of game, either. Harrison Reed would manage well, though. Are they actually that physical. Will probably have Sakho and Valencia up front, with Noble, Downing, Song etc in midfield. They aren't lightweight, but I wouldn't hugely change what we do because of them. I'm sure Mourinho didn't drop Hazard and Fabregas when they played WH. Y'know funnily enough, we actually played far more effectively against West Ham at Upton Park earlier this season by completely circumventing their physical game and simply out-passing them. If you remember, we actually left Wanyama on the bench and played both Davis and JWP. At half-time I must admit, I was bemoaning the fact that we were getting bullied, but (partly thanks to Koeman's team-talk I'd imagine) in that second-half (probably the best half of football we've played this season) we were just dancing around them. Their big players just couldn't get anywhere near us or the ball as we played them off the park. You don't beat a bullying, physical team by playing them at their own game, you beat them by outplaying them, outpassing them, taking the **** out of them wherever you can and making them look stupid chasing the ball around. Do those criticising JWP think that: a) He isn't good enough to be in our team and likely never will be b) He isn't good enough to be in our team at the moment and should have a reduced role (replaced by X) until he shows more improvement c) He is good enough for our team but just isn't performing well at the moment / for the whole of this season I've been one of JWP's harshest critics but even I'd be the first to say I feel a bit guilty laying into him. Its basically d) He's perfectly talented and technically skillful, but the issue is that because of the (mainly physical) handicaps that he's always going to have (very slightly built, no real pace, short, no natural toughness in the tackle) he'd need to be absolutely outstandingly brilliant from a technical point of view to really be effective. So I suppose you could maybe consider that a reluctant 'a' from me. Measure him up against Ross Barkley for instance. I actually think its arguable that JWP has more footballing talent than Barkley, but I'd swap him for RB in a second as Barkley's pace and physical strength will always make him more effective. Like it or lump it football is a physical game and strength, pace and athleticism are all vital aspects of being 'good'. Find me a central-midfielder these days who gets away with not being a fantastic all-round athlete. Modric, Rosicky, Iniesta, Pirlo, Xavi? There's a few here and there, but you really do have to be absolutely outstandingly, top-level brilliant to offset any element athletic ability nowadays, and I'm very confident in saying that JWP will never be at the level of the players I've just described. Part of the problem with English football is that we've always been so desperate for that kind of technical player that we've massively clutched at straws and I'm afraid JWP is a part of that phenomenon; not just from us, but from the media. Tom Cleverly is probably the biggest example. Tom Carroll as well has been mentioned. Josh McEachran is the most analogous player to JWP though. (Remember him?) Probably the biggest example of a technically gifted English player that everyone in the media couldn't help but jizz themselves about as soon as he was kicking a ball for Chelsea in the odd Carling Cup match or pre-season friendly. Five loans, four years and and precisely 0 goals later, it looks like he's been found out as yet another kid who's just never going to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Was at the game and thought the game passed him by again. But the same can be said of others. As I said before he lacks a lot of qualities needed to play that position. He has no pace, no trickery to get away from tackles, no strength to keep players away from the ball. His main ability is passing which he can be very good at. But to play that role you need a lot more than that. He has a lot of heart and desire and I don't mean to be critical of him as he has contributed to where we are right now. But if we are aiming to progress then we will need a midfield dynamo who can do more than pass. Need someone who can contribute 10 goals a season, create 10-15 goals a season. Someone who can run at players with confidence and find that killer ball to unlock defences. That sadly is JWP position and he can't do that. My main gripe though with him is his set pieces. Mainly corners and free kicks out on the side. So many times it goes straight to the first person which is so annoying. To throw in a stat we have only scored 4 goals from set pieces all season. That would put us 16th in a table of goals scored from set pieces. Even ramping up that percentage by 25% would make a big difference. I would personally start letting others take the set pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 JWP corners hit the first man? WTF??!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 He's still young and has a lot of potential. Technically he's good and I think he's intelligent enough to overcome his lack of pace and lack of physicality. What he can't overcome though is his lack of goals. If you're going to play in that position in this league you have to get 10+ Goals and the same in assists and his lack of goals is something he has got to sort out. His all round game is good and he has the ability to grow into a great player in that position but right now he isn't quite there. But that's completely understandable at such a young age (which is easily forgotten on here). I'm assuming Djuricic will play in that position and I'd also like to see Tadic get more of a chance there too when we're struggling to break teams down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 My main gripe though with him is his set pieces. Mainly corners and free kicks out on the side. So many times it goes straight to the first person which is so annoying. To throw in a stat we have only scored 4 goals from set pieces all season. That would put us 16th in a table of goals scored from set pieces. Even ramping up that percentage by 25% would make a big difference. I would personally start letting others take the set pieces. He missed about ten games earlier in the season, so I suspect we'd have scored a few more from set pieces if he'd started every game. As for the overall quality of his set-piece delivery, there are only a handful of players in the entire league who are able to reliably achieve the combination of pace and trajectory he gets. You can criticise many other elements of his game (I agree, we need a more progressive attacking central midfielder to play alongside MS and VW once they are both fit), but on the dead ball, he is in a different class to anyone else in the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 JWP corners hit the first man? WTF??!!! A lot of the time they do yes. 7% of his chances created came from corners and 8% from free kicks. 50% from passes from the middle. Those stats don't mean he is not good etc they just show that from set pieces we have not created many chances at goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 A lot of the time they do yes. 7% of his chances created came from corners and 8% from free kicks. 50% from passes from the middle. Those stats don't mean he is not good etc they just show that from set pieces we have not created many chances at goal. Think you're a bit confused. Citing our ineffectiveness from corners -assuming you're correct- is hard to pin on JWP. Others were taking setpieces while he was out for three months through injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Was at the game and thought the game passed him by again. But the same can be said of others. As I said before he lacks a lot of qualities needed to play that position. He has no pace, no trickery to get away from tackles, no strength to keep players away from the ball. His main ability is passing which he can be very good at. But to play that role you need a lot more than that. He has a lot of heart and desire and I don't mean to be critical of him as he has contributed to where we are right now. But if we are aiming to progress then we will need a midfield dynamo who can do more than pass. Need someone who can contribute 10 goals a season, create 10-15 goals a season. Someone who can run at players with confidence and find that killer ball to unlock defences. That sadly is JWP position and he can't do that. My main gripe though with him is his set pieces. Mainly corners and free kicks out on the side. So many times it goes straight to the first person which is so annoying. To throw in a stat we have only scored 4 goals from set pieces all season. That would put us 16th in a table of goals scored from set pieces. Even ramping up that percentage by 25% would make a big difference. I would personally start letting others take the set pieces. 10 goals a season plus 10-15 assists? How are Saints going to get a player like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Lol, someone saying their main gripe over JWP is his set-pieces. What do some of our fans watch every weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 10 goals a season plus 10-15 assists? How are Saints going to get a player like that? On Fifa I bought Bale for Saints and he gets me 40 goals a season with 30 assists, so it can be done. However, I sold JWP because his set plays tended to hit the first man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Benali Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Lol, someone saying their main gripe over JWP is his set-pieces. What do some of our fans watch every weekend. How many goals has he scored from free kicks exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 How many goals has he scored from free kicks exactly? What's that got to do with it exactly? Do set pieces only count if you score from them? If you want to criticise JWP, go for it, but to criticise his set pieces is absolutely ludicrous and up there with the most stupid things I've seen posted on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 What's that got to do with it exactly? Do set pieces only count if you score from them? If you want to criticise JWP, go for it, but to criticise his set pieces is absolutely ludicrous and up there with the most stupid things I've seen posted on this site. I think that is a bit harsh. JWP takes our free kicks and has yet to score. He will probably be replaced if he doesn't score within the next 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 What's that got to do with it exactly? Do set pieces only count if you score from them? If you want to criticise JWP, go for it, but to criticise his set pieces is absolutely ludicrous and up there with the most stupid things I've seen posted on this site. I am all for opinion and respect yours. But to try and imply he is some set piece specialist as you are surely he would have actually scored from some of them to be classified as that? Or had some assists from them? The stats don't quite back up your claim. As I said above which people seem to have taken the wrong way for our club to progress into a top 4 side and stay there we will need more goals from midfield and score more from set pieces. Not sure how saying that is "stupid" exactly? Since Lambert left we have not got someone who can score goals from free kicks, is that not true? Most clubs have a player who can score free kicks. Gerrard, Ericksen, Rooney, Toure etc. As I pointed out we are 4th bottom in terms of set pieces. So you are saying that isn't JWP fault as he is awesome and get's it right every time. So who's fault is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 Fortunately Mr Koeman knows a Little bit more about football than The critical posters on this thread. JWP is a wonderful football player and we're lucky to have him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 I am all for opinion and respect yours. But to try and imply he is some set piece specialist as you are surely he would have actually scored from some of them to be classified as that? Or had some assists from them? The stats don't quite back up your claim. As I said above which people seem to have taken the wrong way for our club to progress into a top 4 side and stay there we will need more goals from midfield and score more from set pieces. Not sure how saying that is "stupid" exactly? Since Lambert left we have not got someone who can score goals from free kicks, is that not true? Most clubs have a player who can score free kicks. Gerrard, Ericksen, Rooney, Toure etc. As I pointed out we are 4th bottom in terms of set pieces. So you are saying that isn't JWP fault as he is awesome and get's it right every time. So who's fault is it? What he said , better than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 8 February, 2015 Share Posted 8 February, 2015 How many direct free kicks has JWP actually taken? He wasn't in the team for a fair while whilst he was injured so our set piece stats over a season can't be attributed to him. Either way, he's more likely than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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