Israel

[rallyboy]

If ever there was a subject with no black and white sides, this is it, sensible people probably won't give unconditional support to either side.

Anyone who thinks either side is innocent hasn't been concentrating, all the facts are out, as well as a lot of propaganda.

It looks from the outside like two terrorist groups committing atrocities, the Israeli army spends decades committing acts of war against a civilian population and a terrorist group responds by murdering innocent people.

I see no answer to this one, which may well end with Israel trying to justify mass murder.

As a country I think we need to stay the fuck out of this one, it's going to get very messy and there's going to be no winners.

[sadoldgit]

9 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

If ever there was a subject with no black and white sides, this is it, sensible people probably won't give unconditional support to either side.

Anyone who thinks either side is innocent hasn't been concentrating, all the facts are out, as well as a lot of propaganda.

It looks from the outside like two terrorist groups committing atrocities, the Israeli army spends decades committing acts of war against a civilian population and a terrorist group responds by murdering innocent people.

I see no answer to this one, which may well end with Israel trying to justify mass murder.

As a country I think we need to stay the fuck out of this one, it's going to get very messy and there's going to be no winners.

Watching the horrific news reports over the weekend, Mrs SOG asked me, “Who are the baddies in this?”. All I could think of as a reply is that both are.

Starmer made the point that it has wrecked any chance of peace in the forceable future. If it is true that Iran are behind this as a part of derailing the efforts to normalise relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia then it has worked at the expense of the lives hundreds of innocent civilians.

I can’t agree more, we should keep well out of it both politically and militarily.

[whelk]

You back Israel you fucking idiots

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

Are you out yet Duckie???

Yes finally got out.
 

The best bit of advice I’ve ever received was given to me on Saturday, “Book on El Al asap”. They were about the only ones leaving & there was mayhem at the airport. Sirens going off constantly was the most frightening thing I’ve ever suffered, genuinely terrifying as we made our way to safe shelter in airport. Thank fuck for the Iron Dome, because they were firing rockets at the terminals. Most frightening moments were on the bus from terminal 1 to terminal 3 (which takes about 20 mins) & when we were sat on a plane for an hour and a half before finally taking off. The airlines that cancelled were an absolute disgrace, not for cancelling I get why they did that, but their communication & customer service horrendous. Nobody had a fucking  clue what was going on, the Israeli staff were superb, but overwhelmed. Nobody could speak to their airlines, didn’t know  whether they needed to make their own way home, contact the consulate or sit tight. There were people who had flown in early Sat, who hadn’t left the airport & were trying to get back out. The screens on the seat in front had a airplane tracker on & when I woke up from a quick Kip & saw we were over Cyprus it was a moment of relief like I’ve never felt before. 
 

As for the conflict. No matter what has gone on before, this particular escalation is the fault of one group of people, Hamas. They are responsible for what is happening now. They knew what the Israeli Government’s response would be, and still went ahead with this barbaric attack on innocent people, including children, and the elderly. They actually wanted this response .

When I dropped the hire car back the guy said something to me that sums it up. He said that if they can the Israeli forces will wipe Hamas off the face of the Earth. That if they could, they would murder every single Hamas member. However, Hamas would like to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth, and if they could, they would murder every single Jewish person. That is the profound difference between the sides in this conflict. If the Jewish people did ever give the land back to the Palestines, these fucking animals wouldn’t give up killing Jews. If every Israeli moved to The USA these animals would still try and murder them over there.

I spoke to a lot of Israelis at the airport as there really was fuck all else to do.  The general consensus was they don’t want revenge on the Palestinian people, they want revenge on Hamas. But accept innocent Palestinians are going to die in great numbers to get that revenge. They would rather innocents that have murderous animals living amongst them, die, than innocent Israeli’s die. I’m not debating the rights or wrongs of that, just giving you a little glimpse into the mindset of most Israelis I talked to. 

[ecuk268]

Something like this wasn't put together overnight. They must have been planning it for many months.

Yet despite access to Gaza being controlled by Israel and Egypt, and the millions spent each year on surveillance and intelligence, Israel was taken completely by surprise. 

I imagine that a few of the military and intelligence services will be looking for a new job in the near future.

[badgerx16]

There are reports claiming that Russia has been sending western weapons captured in Ukraine to Hamas, with the intention of publicising an allegation that Ukraine has been trading the weapons NATO has supplied on the black market. In this way Russia is seeking to undermine western support for Ukraine, particularly from the US, where such allegations have previously been made.

 

Too many third parties pulling strings and playing games.

[Baird of the land]

Hamas is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having “achieved its targets”, a senior Hamas official has said.

Think Hamas will find Israel has thousands more targets to achieve.

[inspectorfrost]

28 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

Something like this wasn't put together overnight. They must have been planning it for many months.

Yet despite access to Gaza being controlled by Israel and Egypt, and the millions spent each year on surveillance and intelligence, Israel was taken completely by surprise. 

I imagine that a few of the military and intelligence services will be looking for a new job in the near future.

It's the scale and sophistication of Hamas' attack that got me. They can't have it done it without significantly more resources than they'v had previously.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Yes finally got out.
 

The best bit of advice I’ve ever received was given to me on Saturday, “Book on El Al asap”. They were about the only ones leaving & there was mayhem at the airport. Sirens going off constantly was the most frightening thing I’ve ever suffered, genuinely terrifying as we made our way to safe shelter in airport. Thank fuck for the Iron Dome, because they were firing rockets at the terminals. Most frightening moments were on the bus from terminal 1 to terminal 3 (which takes about 20 mins) & when we were sat on a plane for an hour and a half before finally taking off. The airlines that cancelled were an absolute disgrace, not for cancelling I get why they did that, but their communication & customer service horrendous. Nobody had a fucking  clue what was going on, the Israeli staff were superb, but overwhelmed. Nobody could speak to their airlines, didn’t know  whether they needed to make their own way home, contact the consulate or sit tight. There were people who had flown in early Sat, who hadn’t left the airport & were trying to get back out. The screens on the seat in front had a airplane tracker on & when I woke up from a quick Kip & saw we were over Cyprus it was a moment of relief like I’ve never felt before. 
 

As for the conflict. No matter what has gone on before, this particular escalation is the fault of one group of people, Hamas. They are responsible for what is happening now. They knew what the Israeli Government’s response would be, and still went ahead with this barbaric attack on innocent people, including children, and the elderly. They actually wanted this response .

When I dropped the hire car back the guy said something to me that sums it up. He said that if they can the Israeli forces will wipe Hamas off the face of the Earth. That if they could, they would murder every single Hamas member. However, Hamas would like to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth, and if they could, they would murder every single Jewish person. That is the profound difference between the sides in this conflict. If the Jewish people did ever give the land back to the Palestines, these fucking animals wouldn’t give up killing Jews. If every Israeli moved to The USA these animals would still try and murder them over there.

I spoke to a lot of Israelis at the airport as there really was fuck all else to do.  The general consensus was they don’t want revenge on the Palestinian people, they want revenge on Hamas. But accept innocent Palestinians are going to die in great numbers to get that revenge. They would rather innocents that have murderous animals living amongst them, die, than innocent Israeli’s die. I’m not debating the rights or wrongs of that, just giving you a little glimpse into the mindset of most Israelis I talked to. 

The million dollar question is why.

(Glad you got out ok BTW)

Edited 9 October, 2023 by inspectorfrost

[Gloucester Saint]

20 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

There are reports claiming that Russia has been sending western weapons captured in Ukraine to Hamas, with the intention of publicising an allegation that Ukraine has been trading the weapons NATO has supplied on the black market. In this way Russia is seeking to undermine western support for Ukraine, particularly from the US, where such allegations have previously been made.

 

Too many third parties pulling strings and playing games.

Seems to be mostly Iranian weapons and some homegrown Hamas have used thus far. But little doubt the outbreak is helpful to Putin’s campaign in Ukraine so the US and NATO are distracted. 

Whilst I can’t stand with every fibre of my being Netanyahu and his fellow extremists, and their bullying, illegal, activities in the occupied territories, Hamas have no justification either for these tactics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

They’re not interested in 2-state solutions or the everyday issues of Palestinians, who they are harming beyond measure, they’re just hate-filled racist thugs willing to collaborate with any blood-stained repressive state who will give them time of day to kill Jews and Westerners in general. Every bit as bad the racist Netanyahu. Even Thai labourers trying to earn money for their families in Israel getting kidnapped and brutalised. 

Edited 9 October, 2023 by Gloucester Saint

[buctootim]

Interesting maps / timelines showing how current state borders came about. Seems like a missed opportunity in 1948

 

[Doctoroncall]

10 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Interesting maps / timelines showing how current state borders came about. Seems like a missed opportunity in 1948

 

Palestine was a former Ottoman territory before the shit show with the British deciding they knew best. The Arabs had an opportunity to create a Palestinian state but seemed more intent to keep Palestinians homeless preferring to oppose the creation of Israel. 

Add to the mix when you had the PLO include the destruction of Israel in their Charter until 1996, which was then taken up by other 'organisations' including HAMAS doesn't bode well for a peaceful outcome.  Oh and Israel doesn't recognise the state of Palestine.

[Lord Duckhunter]

35 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

 

 

The million dollar question is why.

(Glad you got out ok BTW)

Thank you.

 

They want an escalation, they want other supportive countries and terrorist groups to rise up against Isreal. There’s absolutely no way they didn’t expect this response. As other posters have said, it’s killed any agreement/ closer ties with The Saudis & other Arab nations. Peace co operation with other states is pretty much dead in the water now. 
 

You can not put the genie back in the bottle, we are where we are, we can’t return to the 1940’s. Rightly, or wrongly, Isreal exists and will exist forever more. There can be no peace until Israel’s enemies accept that fact. No peace until they are willing to live alongside a Jewish state. 

[rallyboy]

I suspect some Palestinians were happy to live alongside the state, they just didn't like it when their houses were bulldozed and their kids were killed by the state.

But that seems a minor issue compared with how both sides have escalated it now.

Support should be with the innocent civilians across the two areas.

 

[inspectorfrost]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Thank you.

 

They want an escalation, they want other supportive countries and terrorist groups to rise up against Isreal. There’s absolutely no way they didn’t expect this response. As other posters have said, it’s killed any agreement/ closer ties with The Saudis & other Arab nations. Peace co operation with other states is pretty much dead in the water now. 
 

You can not put the genie back in the bottle, we are where we are, we can’t return to the 1940’s. Rightly, or wrongly, Isreal exists and will exist forever more. There can be no peace until Israel’s enemies accept that fact. No peace until they are willing to live alongside a Jewish state. 

The UN called out why that's highly unlikely months ago  https://press.un.org/en/2023/sgsm21847.doc.htm

They're two murderous regimes going at it and it's sadly the civilians that will suffer on both sides.

If Israel obliterated Gaza completely it'll just create a humanitarian catastrophe and radicalise thousands more. They launched a ground invasion of Gaza 9 years ago and here we are. The key bit is the sheer scale and sophistication of Hamas's attack, and where they are getting the resources from.

[Guided Missile]

I think the genesis of the problems in Palestine occurred towards the end of the First World War. The remnants of the Ottoman Empire chose the wrong side and the victors, France and Great Britain in the main got to decide what happened with Palestine. In fact, it was the League of Nations, a precursor to the UN, that decided, by granting a mandate to the British over Palestine. Add to the mix the Balfour declaration below and you have the seeds sown which leads us to the current tragic events:

It's worth reading the Balfour declaration, which to me, was a fair and hopeful statement. Anyone that has watched Lawrence of Arabia, a Romsey lad, will understand how the British helped the Arabs drive the Turks out of the Middle East. The problem has been that every evil empire since has tried to subvert the situation, largely based not on politics, but religion. 

The worst of these is Iran. The US in 1979, during the Carter administration, allowed the Iranians to get away with murder and kidnapping, when the US Embassy staff were taken hostage. Carter, the weakest US President in history, gave in, just as Biden did recently. As Kipling said, many years ago, when the Vikings did the same thing as Hamas in England:

Quote

You will find it better policy to say:--"We never pay any-one Dane-geld, Nor matter how trifling the cost; For the end of that game is oppression and shame, And the nation that plays it is lost!"

[badgerx16]

The Balfour Declaration was a fine aspiration, but the conundrum of how to create a new Jewish state on territory already inhabited by other people was exacerbated by the later fallout from WW2; Many hundreds of thousands of displaced people unable or unwilling to go home as the political and national boundaries were redrawn across Europe, including the survivors of the death camps and others who had seen and suffered first hand from virulent anti-Semitism throughout the continent. Wanting to escape to a new, Jewish, state where they controlled their own destiny would have been a natural desire.

Unfortunately it was not "virgin" land.

Edited 10 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[Tamesaint]

5 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

I think the genesis of the problems in Palestine occurred towards the end of the First World War. The remnants of the Ottoman Empire chose the wrong side and the victors, France and Great Britain in the main got to decide what happened with Palestine. In fact, it was the League of Nations, a precursor to the UN, that decided, by granting a mandate to the British over Palestine. Add to the mix the Balfour declaration below and you have the seeds sown which leads us to the current tragic events:

It's worth reading the Balfour declaration, which to me, was a fair and hopeful statement. Anyone that has watched Lawrence of Arabia, a Romsey lad, will understand how the British helped the Arabs drive the Turks out of the Middle East. The problem has been that every evil empire since has tried to subvert the situation, largely based not on politics, but religion. 

The worst of these is Iran. The US in 1979, during the Carter administration, allowed the Iranians to get away with murder and kidnapping, when the US Embassy staff were taken hostage. Carter, the weakest US President in history, gave in, just as Biden did recently. As Kipling said, many years ago, when the Vikings did the same thing as Hamas in England:

I am not wishing to take this thread too far down a historic sidetrack but  despite Kipling 's fine words, often quoted by ill informed little Englishmen, the Danes did receive a huge amount of Danegeld. The Danes were not repulsed and many of the kings of England in the 11th century had Danish / Viking origins. 

I hope that Hamas cannot be compared with the Vikings because the Vikings definitely had the last laugh and were the ultimate victors. 

 

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Tamesaint said:

I am not wishing to take this thread too far down a historic sidetrack but  despite Kipling 's fine words, often quoted by ill informed little Englishmen, the Danes did receive a huge amount of Danegeld. The Danes were not repulsed and many of the kings of England in the 11th century had Danish / Viking origins. 

I hope that Hamas cannot be compared with the Vikings because the Vikings definitely had the last laugh and were the ultimate victors. 

 

Indeed. The Normans were Vikings and William the Conqueror arguably had a better claim to the English throne than the 'English' Harold.  

Edited 10 October, 2023 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Indeed. The Normans were Vikings and William the Conqueror arguably had a better claim to the English throne than the 'English' Harold.  

Saxon kings were elected in the Witan, not directly hereditary.

However, I think that is enough early English history.

Edited 10 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Saxon kings were elected in the Witan, not directly hereditary.

Yes but its not as clear cut as that because the aristocracy were all intermarried. Harold's mum was Danish and his son fled to Norway after Harolds defeat. Even his name Godwinson follows the Scandinavian system.  

Edited 10 October, 2023 by buctootim

[buctootim]

 

This is bleak. 200 people killed in a Kibbutz, Babies beheaded (TV news report, not graphic images).  

Edited 10 October, 2023 by buctootim

[rallyboy]

The first casualty of war is truth - it's currently about propaganda, both sides claiming to be victims of atrocities so appalling that the most extreme response can be justified.

The UK needs to keep out of this.

[whelk]

34 minutes ago, buctootim said:

 

This is bleak. 200 people killed in a Kibbutz, Babies beheaded (TV news report, not graphic images).  

Hard to tell who the bad guys are though eh?

[whelk]

15 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

The first casualty of war is truth - it's currently about propaganda, both sides claiming to be victims of atrocities so appalling that the most extreme response can be justified.

The UK needs to keep out of this.

It s news, why the fuck do you keep posting about keeping out of it? No one is saying we are sending troops to Gaza..

[sadoldgit]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hard to tell who the bad guys are though eh?

I don’t think that anyone is saying that what happened this weekend isn’t abhorrent and that the actions of Hamas are excusable. These things do not happen in a vacuum though and atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years. Neither side can claim the moral high ground in this conflict.

I agree that we need to stand back and let the UN get on with it. It will only breed more would be martyrs who will look for soft targets on the streets of cities and towns of countries who throw their lot in with Israel (who already have all the help they need through the US).

 

Edited 10 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Add text

[egg]

53 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hard to tell who the bad guys are though eh?

Both sides are. Don't let the hideous acts of Hamas kid you that the behaviour of the Israeli government, historically and currently, is acceptable. 

[AlexLaw76]

surprising the UK media/givt has not banned the official news feed from a particular side of the argument on this one....

🙃

Israel will probably flatten Gaza to a point that the USA allow

Edited 10 October, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[whelk]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

Both sides are. Don't let the hideous acts of Hamas kid you that the behaviour of the Israeli government, historically and currently, is acceptable. 

Not comparable at all. Fucking embarrassing that so many on here running that line. 
When 9/11 happened were you saying well, look what US have done in the Middle East?

you might think it bloodlust or I have been fooled by propaganda but you kill these cunts. Although you were talking about negotiating with Putin so don’t really think we are too similar when it comes to this sort of thing. Easy to talk about preferring peace but I genuinely find it loathsome the Corbyn like intelligentsia who we all know are rooted in antisemitic views.

 

[whelk]

Guess many of you are quite supportive of Iran too? Two sides and all that

[egg]

Just now, whelk said:

Not comparable at all. Fucking embarrassing that so many on here running that line. 
When 9/11 happened were you saying well, look what US have done in the Middle East?

you might think it bloodlust or I have been fooled by propaganda but you kill these cunts. Although you were talking about negotiating with Putin so don’t really think we are too similar when it comes to this sort of thing. Easy to talk about preferring peace but I genuinely find it loathsome the Corbyn like intelligentsia who we all know are rooted in antisemitic views.

 

What's embarrassing is intelligent people only seeing what they want to see. Israel have been a disgrace for years, surely you agree with that. Hamas have been a disgrace for years, and have taken it to a new and appalling level. 

I'll carry on looking at the full picture. I couldn't give a monkeys what your view is. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t think that anyone is saying that what happened this weekend isn’t abhorrent and that the actions of Hamas are excusable. These things do not happen in a vacuum though and atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years. Neither side can claim the moral high ground in this conflict.

I agree that we need to stand back and let the UN get on with it. It will only breed more would be martyrs who will look for soft targets on the streets of cities and towns of countries who throw their lot in with Israel (who already have all the help they need through the US).

 

You actually sad you told your missus when she asked who were the bad guys that you didn’t know. Arab terrorists shooting teenagers fleeing a music festival, breaking into people’s homes and butchering people including kids.  
sorry will never understand that viewpoint. 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

What's embarrassing is intelligent people only seeing what they want to see. Israel have been a disgrace for years, surely you agree with that. Hamas have been a disgrace for years, and have taken it to a new and appalling level. 

I'll carry on looking at the full picture. I couldn't give a monkeys what your view is. 

Weak cowardice dressed up as peace loving. But good of you all to say you don’t condone Hamas killings. Wow fucking wee

[egg]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Weak cowardice dressed up as peace loving. But good of you all to say you don’t condone Hamas killings. Wow fucking wee

Imo any right minded person should accept that the Israeli government have acted disgracefully. Particularly as the UN have said so many times. Whilst that doesn't condone in any way what Hamas have done, it's ridiculous to say that only Hamas are the had guys. Both sides are a disgrace. I'll leave it there, but I'm happy that my view is the proper one. 

[Lighthouse]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Imo any right minded person should accept that the Israeli government have acted disgracefully. Particularly as the UN have said so many times. Whilst that doesn't condone in any way what Hamas have done, it's ridiculous to say that only Hamas are the had guys. Both sides are a disgrace. I'll leave it there, but I'm happy that my view is the proper one. 

 

The Israelis have been ruthless in the defence of their territory and have no doubt committed many human rights abuses in clearing settlements. What they haven’t done is gone in beheading children and shooting up music festivals with the expressed intention of killing as many innocent people as possible and instigating a holy war.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The Israelis have been ruthless in the defence of their territory and have no doubt committed many human rights abuses in clearing settlements. What they haven’t done is gone in beheading children and shooting up music festivals with the expressed intention of killing as many innocent people as possible and instigating a holy war.

The point made by whelk is that there's only one bad side in this. There isn't. 

[badgerx16]

42 minutes ago, whelk said:

You might think it bloodlust or I have been fooled by propaganda but you kill these cunts. Although you were talking about negotiating with Putin so don’t really think we are too similar when it comes to this sort of thing. Easy to talk about preferring peace but I genuinely find it loathsome the Corbyn like intelligentsia who we all know are rooted in antisemitic views.

 

 Hamas are Iranian backed terrorists and should be eradicated, there is no argument about that. They do not speak for the entirity of the Palestinian people, or even for a majority of them.

 However, to ignore the circumstances that feed the anger and frustration of the Palestinian people, and leads so many of them to feel that a violent response to their oppression is necessary, is a narrow minded position. Between the start of 1947 and the end of 1948, over 1 million Palestinian people, from a population of just under 1.5 million, were displaced by the influx of Jewish immigrants / refugees. This was the genesis of the current situation, and whilst Israel continues to ignore the UN and keeps building settlements where they are not supposed to, continues to deny basic rights of access to services for people being coralled into camps having been shunted off their own land, continues to use overwhelming air power and armoured force to destroy civilian homes and infrastructure, they will continue to be perceived as occupiers and will not have a peaceful solution to the problem.

 

 As we found out in Ireland, only dialogue and understanding has a chnace to resolve such partisan divisions.

Edited 10 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[whelk]

39 minutes ago, egg said:

Imo any right minded person should accept that the Israeli government have acted disgracefully. Particularly as the UN have said so many times. Whilst that doesn't condone in any way what Hamas have done, it's ridiculous to say that only Hamas are the had guys. Both sides are a disgrace. I'll leave it there, but I'm happy that my view is the proper one. 

 

Biden’s speech must have been really frustrating for you

[Lighthouse]

16 minutes ago, egg said:

The point made by whelk is that there's only one bad side in this. There isn't. 

Nobody is saying the Israelis don't do anything bad. I don't condone a lot of what the USA does but I know who the bad guys were on 9/11. There are differing shades of bad.

[inspectorfrost]

53 minutes ago, whelk said:

You actually sad you told your missus when she asked who were the bad guys that you didn’t know. Arab terrorists shooting teenagers fleeing a music festival, breaking into people’s homes and butchering people including kids.  
sorry will never understand that viewpoint. 

You'd be surprised who are capable of breaking into people’s homes and butchering people including kids  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67054702

War is the dirtiest of dirty businesses, half the battle is in the media but ultimately 'good guys' and 'bad guys' only exist in Hollywood movies. The tragedy is that all civilan suffering and loss of civilian life, both Palestinian and Israeli is equally tragic. Both sides' rulers have a long history of atrocities against the other side.

The current Scottish First Minister (whose in-laws are currently stuck in Gaza) summed it up very well yesterday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67057367

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

The Israelis have been ruthless in the defence of their territory and have no doubt committed many human rights abuses in clearing settlements. 

Absolutely spot on. 
 

There is no equivalence between the two sides in this particular outbreak, anymore than the 9/11 bombers were legitimately fighting back against American excess around the globe.

The Israelis are facing an enemy who want every single Jew wiped off the face of the earth. So they will use any ruthless or barbaric tactic to ensure the survival of The Jewish state, because without one they will never be truly safe. The appalling anti semitic treatment they get in what are supposed to be modern liberal democracies is chilling, from celebrating terrorism against them on London streets, to people singing “gas the Jews” on the steps of Sydney Opera house. Is it no wonder they will do anything to eradicate these monsters and want a safe haven for Jews if they ever needed it. 

They are the only democracy in the middle east, a country that is tolerant of homosexuality, a country where women are encouraged to be whatever they want to be. Yet so called “progressives” consider them as bad as medieval savages who live in the dark ages. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Biden’s speech must have been really frustrating for you

What an odd comment. I agree that the Hamas attacks were an act of sheer evil. I've never suggested otherwise. What I have said is that you are wrong to suggest that there is only one bad side in this sorry situation. That's a statement of fact. What it isn't is a suggestion from me that Hamas behaviour is somehow justified, or that I'm suggesting that there is equivalence. It's possible to be disgusted with Hamas and recognise that Israel also behave appallingly. 

[aintforever]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

What an odd comment. I agree that the Hamas attacks were an act of sheer evil. I've never suggested otherwise. What I have said is that you are wrong to suggest that there is only one bad side in this sorry situation. That's a statement of fact. What it isn't is a suggestion from me that Hamas behaviour is somehow justified, or that I'm suggesting that there is equivalence. It's possible to be disgusted with Hamas and recognise that Israel also behave appallingly. 

This. The Hamas attacks were pure evil but what Israel is doing now just makes another one inevitable sometime in the future. They are killing innocent women, children and the elderly just like Hamas did. Turning Gaza City into rumble won’t barely touch the Hamas fighters, they would have known this response would happen and will have prepared.

 

[buctootim]

https://x.com/AmbJohnBolton/status/1711458954910261517?s=20

[inspectorfrost]

53 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Absolutely spot on. 
 

There is no equivalence between the two sides in this particular outbreak, anymore than the 9/11 bombers were legitimately fighting back against American excess around the globe.

The Israelis are facing an enemy who want every single Jew wiped off the face of the earth. So they will use any ruthless or barbaric tactic to ensure the survival of The Jewish state, because without one they will never be truly safe. The appalling anti semitic treatment they get in what are supposed to be modern liberal democracies is chilling, from celebrating terrorism against them on London streets, to people singing “gas the Jews” on the steps of Sydney Opera house. Is it no wonder they will do anything to eradicate these monsters and want a safe haven for Jews if they ever needed it. 

They are the only democracy in the middle east, a country that is tolerant of homosexuality, a country where women are encouraged to be whatever they want to be. Yet so called “progressives” consider them as bad as medieval savages who live in the dark ages. 

 

You also have the EU currently pointing out Israel blockading food/water/electricity is a clear breach of international law. As Humza Yousef has suggested, why should his in-laws have to potentially starve to death due to the actions of the murderous regime controlling Gaza?

They might be the only democracy in the middle east but the world is a very diverse place. Not everyone in the world wants to be like the west, and in a lot of cases prefer autocratic regimes. (Given we've had Liz Truss and Boris Johnson as prime ministers in recent years they probably have a point)

Edited 10 October, 2023 by inspectorfrost

[whelk]

17 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

why should his in-laws have to potentially starve to death due to the actions of the murderous regime controlling Gaza?

Do you think Hamas attacks wouldn’t be met with this sort of reaction? Only a fool would think otherwise. You don’t mess with the Israelis they don’t turn the other cheek. Hamas knew that too so they have royally fucked the Palestinian people and if you think the UN has any teeth to stop it then again that shows massive naivety.

[whelk]

53 minutes ago, egg said:

What an odd comment. I agree that the Hamas attacks were an act of sheer evil. I've never suggested otherwise. What I have said is that you are wrong to suggest that there is only one bad side in this sorry situation. That's a statement of fact. What it isn't is a suggestion from me that Hamas behaviour is somehow justified, or that I'm suggesting that there is equivalence. It's possible to be disgusted with Hamas and recognise that Israel also behave appallingly. 

I haven’t suggested that but you seem to want to suggest there is equivalence in the atrocities by keep saying Israeli isn’t innocent. Your emphasis give away where your sympathies lie

[whelk]

24 minutes ago, buctootim said:

https://x.com/AmbJohnBolton/status/1711458954910261517?s=20

Recently unfroze $6billion - that’s a lot of money for arms

[rallyboy]

As I said, no sensible person would throw their full support behind either side in a conflict where both parties are happy to commit war crimes.

To do that you'd have to be attention-seeking, a little bit simple, or wearing blinkers.

 

 

[whelk]

24 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

As I said, no sensible person would throw their full support behind either side in a conflict where both parties are happy to commit war crimes.

To do that you'd have to be attention-seeking, a little bit simple, or wearing blinkers.

 

 

Owen Jones told you the Middle East is complicated yeah? 
Nothing like a smug intellectual trying to patronise. 
just look away pal that will do it
 

[badgerx16]

A group of Muslims in Blackburn were seen hanging an effigy of a Jewish man.