The Spygate Saga

[trousers]

1 minute ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

The likelyhood is we won't know the outcome of the hearing on Thursday.....Sky have just reported the outcome is expected before the end of the International break ffs!

Looking on the bright side, if that's true, then Tonda should still be at the helm for the derby game (assuming we invoke the appeal process, which we have 7 days to do after the verdict, I believe)

[trousers]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Only if you believe the mantra that all publicity is good publicity. I'm not so sure they'll want to make themselves look foolish especially given the leniency they show to elite clubs. Double standards won't go down well.

I admire your optimism, but having been on the planet for 58 years, the FA and "double standards" have always been synonyms as far as I recall... I'm not convinced they're suddenly going to turn into a reasonable / rational / logical organisation overnight...

[saintant]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Looking on the bright side, if that's true, then Tonda should still be at the helm for the derby game (assuming we invoke the appeal process, which we have 7 days to do after the verdict, I believe)

Unless Sky are factoring in an appeal from us. I guess it's feasible that could potentially be resolved by the end of the break.

[saintant]

Just now, trousers said:

I admire your optimism, but having been on the planet for 58 years, the FA and "double standards" have always been synonyms as far as I recall... I'm not convinced they're suddenly going to turn into a reasonable / rational / logical organisation overnight...

Might cost them a few bob if we win an appeal though 🙂

[trousers]

Just now, saintant said:

Might cost them a few bob if we win an appeal though 🙂

[saintant]

Just now, trousers said:

Yeah, ok 🙂

[Ted Bates Statue]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Of course it's relevant because I'm responding to a post citing that fans from other clubs have criticised us. I'm pointing out that it's a certainty that some of those fans clubs have done the same thing whether those fans admit it or not. It's a fact acknowledged numerous times by people within the game one of who I know and trust.

Too bad nobody seems prepared to acknowledge that in public, even under cover of anonymity.

Looking forward to the verdict, and another chapter closing in Sports Republic's stewardship of our club. Coming up to completing half a decade of their bullshit in January.

[Saint86]

21 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What about the local businesses of the clubs like Wrexham that didn't get into the playoffs after we were kicked out?

Everytime parsons has acted in this whole fiasco, it has made it worse. This will be the same. Absolute car crash from him once again, there is surely no way Solak let's it continue after this is all over?🤷

Edited 3 hours ago by Saint86

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

For those suggesting that doing these interviews before the hearing isn't a bad thing, what do you think the benefit is of doing so? (other than to placate a perceived clamour from fans for such a preemptive interview). Genuinely interested as I can't see anything to be gained myself, so perhaps I'm missing something obvious...?

The parties involved will have been advised to get ahead of the story.

If the verdict has not already been decided, it's a last opportunity to try and shape the narrative.

Both Tonda and Parsons were deliberately low key in their responses. They discussed the impact a bit on the club, but also Tonda and Will as well. They mention the personal punishment, both have already had.

Note they say Salt felt the situation was pressured, and not that he was directly pressured. They speak of loyalty (Salt and Tonda both happy to be at the club) and having to push on, making sure to drop suspended sentence in there.

They also get point out Chelsea (different thing), and that the Canadian coach was different.

This is all a fairly standard approach. It focuses on the people and the punishments already received for them. It doesn't get dragged into hyperbole or criticise the organisation or decision process. Parsons even gets in a face saving suspended sentence. He doesn't give a "no punishment" option.

A different interview may have been ill conceived and got the backs up of the powers that be. This one restates the club's views. The alternative having been to say nothing, try not to position the club publically ahead of any outcome/appeal?, and to then be seen to be moaning after the event.

[The Kraken]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cmp30p934g4lo

FFS, can someone in the club get Parsons to shut his fucking trap.  Fine to get ahead of the story if you're going to say something sensible like Tonda is able to do.  Parsons is incapable of that, says 'we're not the victims' while the rest of his narrative makes out that we are, and basically makes a horlicks of trying to put across a balanced point of view.  The bloke is a walking disaster.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by The Kraken

[Holmes_and_Watson]

51 minutes ago, trousers said:

Indeed... I'm just about to submit my nomination of Tonda for this year's Nobel Peace Prize...

In Washington. Donald gets excited when he sees the "T" being etched on his trophy, only to then become enraged and declare 300% tariffs on any goods leaving Southampton. 🙂

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Alfie house repeated again yesterday that there is no evidence of bullying and that it isn't relevant to the charge.

There is no evidence of bullying from Eckert (or none that we have seen). It was used as a jumped up and frankly slanderous charge (one that is nearly impossible to shift fully) to justify the extreme sanction.

How we didn't appeal this was maddening. Maybe we are waiting for it to be all over and then take legal action, but I doubt it somehow. What's perhaps more likely is that we did spy more often, and so laid down and took the punishment to not face further disciplinary issues.

Edited 3 hours ago by Saint86

[pingpong]

I hope we have approached temporary replacements already, because I'm praying for Bielsa to come in on Friday as caretaker whilst tonda is suspended. It's the only way.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, pingpong said:

I hope we have approached temporary replacements already, because I'm praying for Bielsa to come in on Friday as caretaker whilst tonda is suspended. It's the only way.

I know it won't happen but could you imagine? Would be the biggest fuck you to the FA imaginable.

[The Kraken]

38 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont think he'll get a touchline ban because the offence didn't happen during a game. My gut feel is that he'll get hammered with a 6 month to 1 year total football ban as they'll want to set an example and they wont do it with a big club. What should realistically happen is he gets a fine and a suspended ban.

At this stage I've got no idea what the FA will hand down.  I go from suspended ban to season long ban, back and forth every day.  I tend to think it'll be on the longer side of things, FA have a chance to look tough on a smaller club.

However, if Tonda does cop a long ban, I'm not sure how other senior figures in the club aren't culpable too and should get the same.  Tonda doesn't have direct control of the analysis team; so the Analysis team management are surely as culpable (if not more culpable, as they should have the autonomy to refuse a request from team management that is outside the bounds of football rules).  

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

The parties involved will have been advised to get ahead of the story.

If the verdict has not already been decided, it's a last opportunity to try and shape the narrative.

Both Tonda and Parsons were deliberately low key in their responses. They discussed the impact a bit on the club, but also Tonda and Will as well. They mention the personal punishment, both have already had.

Note they say Salt felt the situation was pressured, and not that he was directly pressured. They speak of loyalty (Salt and Tonda both happy to be at the club) and having to push on, making sure to drop suspended sentence in there.

They also get point out Chelsea (different thing), and that the Canadian coach was different.

This is all a fairly standard approach. It focuses on the people and the punishments already received for them. It doesn't get dragged into hyperbole or criticise the organisation or decision process. Parsons even gets in a face saving suspended sentence. He doesn't give a "no punishment" option.

A different interview may have been ill conceived and got the backs up of the powers that be. This one restates the club's views. The alternative having been to say nothing, try not to position the club publically ahead of any outcome/appeal?, and to then be seen to be moaning after the event.

Good morning Phil 👋🏻

😉

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

At this stage I've got no idea what the FA will hand down.  I go from suspended ban to season long ban, back and forth every day.  I tend to think it'll be on the longer side of things, FA have a chance to look tough on a smaller club.

However, if Tonda does cop a long ban, I'm not sure how other senior figures in the club aren't culpable too and should get the same.  Tonda doesn't have direct control of the analysis team; so the Analysis team management are surely as culpable (if not more culpable, as they should have the autonomy to refuse a request from team management that is outside the bounds of football rules).  

Im the same, but im fearing the worst. Everyone you speak to thinks it's ridiculous and well over the top apart from those in charge of football in this country it seems.

[trousers]

14 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I hope we have approached temporary replacements already, because I'm praying for Bielsa to come in on Friday as caretaker whilst tonda is suspended. It's the only way.

 

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I know it won't happen but could you imagine? Would be the biggest fuck you to the FA imaginable.

Yeah, I'm almost praying this happens (if they throw the book at Tonda). 

[The Kraken]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Im the same, but im fearing the worst. Everyone you speak to thinks it's ridiculous and well over the top apart from those in charge of football in this country it seems.

Yep, I was on holiday a couple of weeks back with pals and had a few poolside chats with a beer with them, they're not Saints fans.  All agreed it was a bloody stupid thing to do and required some form of punishment, which we've had, and enough is enough.

I agree with you though, I fear the worst and I think it'll be a long ban.  Your notion of a touchline ban not being appropriate probably makes sense too.  I don't see how they could/will say "you're banned from football for 6 weeks".  Just can't see it.  It's months IMO, and I can definitely see a ban to the end of the season being what they will push for.

Interesting to hear Tonda say that the hearing is on Thursday, but he's already sat with the FA for hours before now to make his case.  AFAIK the hearing is not just an opportunity for the FA to pass down judgement, so interesting to thinkl what is still to come.

Edited 3 hours ago by The Kraken

[Disco Stu]

The media are against us. I'm struggling to see how doing that interview helps our situation.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

Yep, I was on holiday a couple of weeks back with pals and had a fer beerside chats around the pool with them, they're no Saints fans.  All agreed it was a bloody stupid thing to do and required some form of punishment, which we've had, and enough is enough.

I agree with you though, I fear the worst and I think it'll be a long ban.  Your notion of a touchline ban not being appropriate probably makes sense too.  I don't see how they could/will say "you're banned from football for 6 weeks".  Just can't see it.  It's months IMO, and I can definitely see a ban to the end of the season being what they will push for.

Interesting to hear Tonda say that the hearing is on Thursday, but he's already sat with the FA for hours before now to make his case.  AFAIK the hearing is not just an opportunity for the FA to pass down judgement, so interesting to thinkl what is still to come.

I wonder how these things work with regard to a prosecution. I would assume the case will be stated and then we get to day our bit, but is there anyone pushing for punishment? In the play off case Middlesborough were all over it giving statements to the press saying what should happen to us. Wonder if there will be anyone from the EFL or FA trying to push for punishment or it'll be a case of them hearing the charges, our version of it then deciding what action they take.

[RedArmy]

54 minutes ago, Football Special said:

None of you know, just calm down and wait and see what happens later this week, getting yourselves into a right old panic. 

I didn’t pay £5 to be pragmatic. 

[Doctoroncall]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I wonder how these things work with regard to a prosecution. I would assume the case will be stated and then we get to day our bit, but is there anyone pushing for punishment? In the play off case Middlesborough were all over it giving statements to the press saying what should happen to us. Wonder if there will be anyone from the EFL or FA trying to push for punishment or it'll be a case of them hearing the charges, our version of it then deciding what action they take.

Any promotion rival will be happy for with further disruption. But a bit like spying not being 100% guaranteed to help, there could be some positive effects like a siege mentality and do it for Tonda If the punishment is severe. 

[Saint Pete]

I'm personally not totally against doing an interview to get our side of the argument out there and put some media spotlight and pressure on the FA themselves to make a fair decision, as I feel we have been too passive in this process from the start. But if you are going to do it, it needs to be done with real conviction and you need to have something really tangible to say in your defence or a bit of threat towards the FA rather than just "please don't punish him because it will hurt us" .

Problem is Parsons isn't the right man to do that, so it just comes across as a bit weak again. The bit about why we haven't already sacked him in particular, which Parsons answered by saying because he's a good manager so deserves our loyalty, which may be true but makes it sound like we have no integrity. He should have said because he is young and made a mistake and deserves a second chance as we still feel he is a good man. 

If we were going to do this, I would have liked Parsons to go harder on the fair and proportionate punishment to fit the crime angle by drawing parallels with FA cases of rule breaking and cheating against the bigger clubs (eg Chelsea) where punishments have been light, suspended sentences, fines etc. If we were worried about naming them for legal reasons, we could have still referred to them broadly as cases involving larger clubs without naming names. That is an angle where I think we would get more sympathy from the media and the wider football world, so could have helped us put more pressure on the FA before a final decision is arrived at and announced, assuming that was the aim. 

[tdmickey3]

As lots of us seem to agree that the punishment is going to be severe.

Do you believe the club have got a solid plan for the above or are they confident it will not be a harsh punishment or none at all?

[LordHester]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Which undelines the point I've been sticking to all along, that surely the FA should be treating all managers the same for misdemeanors such as this, regardless of which rules a particular league happens to have in place, or not as the case may be. Otherwise you just end up with inconsistent outcomes for the same 'crime'... 

With the PL and the EFL having differing rules, we already have inconsistent outcomes for the same 'crime'. 

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

Everytime parsons has acted in this whole fiasco, it has made it worse. This will be the same. Absolute car crash from him once again, there is surely no way Solak let's it continue after this is all over?🤷

👆 Exactly this.

Nothing he ever does has a point. He actively damages everything he touches. He's an embarrassment, and quite clearly has been completely out of his depth from the beginning. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Midfield_General

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, Saint Pete said:

I'm personally not totally against doing an interview to get our side of the argument out there and put some media spotlight and pressure on the FA themselves to make a fair decision, as I feel we have been too passive in this process from the start. But if you are going to do it, it needs to be done with real conviction and you need to have something really tangible to say in your defence or a bit of threat towards the FA rather than just "please don't punish him because it will hurt us" .

Problem is Parsons isn't the right man to do that, so it just comes across as a bit weak again. The bit about why we haven't already sacked him in particular, which Parsons answered by saying because he's a good manager so deserves our loyalty, which may be true but makes it sound like we have no integrity. He should have said because he is young and made a mistake and deserves a second chance as we still feel he is a good man. 

If we were going to do this, I would have liked Parsons to go harder on the fair and proportionate punishment to fit the crime angle by drawing parallels with FA cases of rule breaking and cheating against the bigger clubs (eg Chelsea) where punishments have been light, suspended sentences, fines etc. If we were worried about naming them for legal reasons, we could have still referred to them broadly as cases involving larger clubs without naming names. That is an angle where I think we would get more sympathy from the media and the wider football world, so could have helped us put more pressure on the FA before a final decision is arrived at and announced, assuming that was the aim. 

Also spot on.

I can see no benefit whatsoever to doing an interview at all, but if you're going to do it, actually present an argument that has factual validity, or bring something new to the table, not just waaah waaah waaah crying like a little bitch with no substance and nothing worthwhile to add.

His actions are poorly judged and will cause us more harm, as always. He's an idiot, and every new mistake he's allowed to make just makes me think that Solak must be an idiot too for leaving him in place to blunder on making everything worse. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Midfield_General

[23rdSaint]

12 minutes ago, Saint Pete said:

I'm personally not totally against doing an interview to get our side of the argument out there and put some media spotlight and pressure on the FA themselves to make a fair decision, as I feel we have been too passive in this process from the start. But if you are going to do it, it needs to be done with real conviction and you need to have something really tangible to say in your defence or a bit of threat towards the FA rather than just "please don't punish him because it will hurt us" .

Problem is Parsons isn't the right man to do that, so it just comes across as a bit weak again. The bit about why we haven't already sacked him in particular, which Parsons answered by saying because he's a good manager so deserves our loyalty, which may be true but makes it sound like we have no integrity. He should have said because he is young and made a mistake and deserves a second chance as we still feel he is a good man. 

If we were going to do this, I would have liked Parsons to go harder on the fair and proportionate punishment to fit the crime angle by drawing parallels with FA cases of rule breaking and cheating against the bigger clubs (eg Chelsea) where punishments have been light, suspended sentences, fines etc. If we were worried about naming them for legal reasons, we could have still referred to them broadly as cases involving larger clubs without naming names. That is an angle where I think we would get more sympathy from the media and the wider football world, so could have helped us put more pressure on the FA before a final decision is arrived at and announced, assuming that was the aim. 

Can we pin this post? This is spot on.

[trousers]

44 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I didn’t pay £5 to be pragmatic. 

Ha! That needs to be on a Saintsweb t-shirt... Make it so @stevegrant 

[Saint86]

Who are we getting in as a stop gap manager then. The Hass(enhuttle), bielsa for some spy gate bants, Steve Cooper? Very outside chance of Eddie Howe - finally getting to see  the home dugout at St Mary's... and with a view to his next premier league job being back on the south coast? Or maybe, just maybe, SR will surprise and delight us all (in equal measures) and promote Adz to first team coach?😆

Edited 2 hours ago by Saint86

[The Kraken]

Dave Challinor is out of work.  Incredible record of getting to the playoffs with teams in the lower leagues.

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

You do know that working yourself up into a panic is what forums are for dont you sir?

[sockeye]

2 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Who are we getting in as a stop gap manager then. The Hass(enhuttle), bielsa for some spy gate bants, Steve Cooper? Very outside chance of Eddie Howe - finally getting to see  the home dugout at St Mary's... and with a view to his next premier league job being back on the south coast? Or maybe, just maybe, SR will surprise and delight us all (in equal measures) and promote Adz to first team coach?😆

Pep’s available mate

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Who are we getting in as a stop gap manager then. The Hass(enhuttle), bielsa for some spy gate bants, Steve Cooper? Very outside chance of Eddie Howe - finally getting to see  the home dugout at St Mary's... and with a view to his next premier league job being back on the south coast? Or maybe, just maybe, SR will surprise and delight us all (in equal measures) and promote Adz to first team coach?😆

Eddie Howe is not going to join Saints 😂

We missed that boat and the mantra on here at the time was he wasn't good enough for us he gets teams relegated 😂

It'll be some German bloke we've never heard of probably

[AlexLaw76]

Neil Warnock....why not

[trousers]

It's almost inevitable they'll promote from within, isn't it? After all, that approach turned out alight last time...

[westmidlandsaint]

I wonder what the LMA stance will be if the sanctions are heavy

[RedArmy]

Russell Martin and Will Still will probably be looking for work soon.. 

[tdmickey3]

10 minutes ago, trousers said:

It's almost inevitable they'll promote from within, isn't it? After all, that approach turned out alight last time...

Yeah, perhaps it will be the ANALyst in question

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

The media are against us. I'm struggling to see how doing that interview helps our situation.

Anything Saints have done from day one has just added to the media's archive of spygate resources. Spygate will run for 25 years, it a reporters dream, social media just grows kn idiotic thing people do. No one cares or talks about Man City or any other football issues. Its all Saints and how stupid the have been. The club made things worse by not admitting it and firing Tonda as the must have known everything. Boro’s Saints hate campaign has been superb and it cant be stopped. Wrexham have just put it back as number football topic. The creative minds on Saints cheating is endless. We shot ourselves in the foot, Man City won't even get a fine as accounting mistakes can dissappear in loop holes, getting caught spying cant. I dont think Tonda will come back, media want him gone, clubs want him out and Saints are completely useless at thus stuff.

[macca155]

1 hour ago, tdmickey3 said:

As lots of us seem to agree that the punishment is going to be severe.

Do you believe the club have got a solid plan for the above or are they confident it will not be a harsh punishment or none at all?

That's probably because Saints had such a severe punishment from the EFL. The bar has been set. I can't see it not being substantial. Luton had similar and I suspect Leicester are about to feel the pain. They love sticking it to the smaller clubs.

To answer your excellent question, I'm sure they have several contingencies. Almost certainly from within, probably the reason Lallana was brought in. 

Having said that a 6 month sabbatical for an out of work manager, might tempt a name to join us.

Saints remain a good prospect , despite our current woes.

[die Mannyschaft]

31 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Eddie Howe is not going to join Saints 😂

We missed that boat and the mantra on here at the time was he wasn't good enough for us he gets teams relegated 😂

It'll be some German bloke we've never heard of probably

If Tonda gets 12 months ban cant he work from home like Tuchel did. Its not difficult as we manage our games by data analysis not what happens on the pitch.

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, trousers said:

It's almost inevitable they'll promote from within, isn't it? After all, that approach turned out alight last time...

Jwp player manager?

[Cuddles]

38 minutes ago, trousers said:

It's almost inevitable they'll promote from within, isn't it? After all, that approach turned out alight last time...

Just make sure they know the bloody rules FFS!!1! 😂

[AlexLaw76]

11 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

If Tonda gets 12 months ban cant he work from home like Tuchel did. Its not difficult as we manage our games by data analysis not what happens on the pitch.

why have a match day manager at all, if this is the case

[PJ]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cmp30p934g4lo

FFS, can someone in the club get Parsons to shut his fucking trap.  Fine to get ahead of the story if you're going to say something sensible like Tonda is able to do.  Parsons is incapable of that, says 'we're not the victims' while the rest of his narrative makes out that we are, and basically makes a horlicks of trying to put across a balanced point of view.  The bloke is a walking disaster.

 

This. I originally wanted to give PP the benefit of the doubt, and that despite mistakes, he was far from the main issue here. He didn't instruct the spying after all. However, this interview in particular does not reflect well on him. The fact he's squinting from the sun doesn't help - it makes him look like he's smirking throughout. Amateur - how you come across is as important as what you say. The contrast between this interview and the Dragan one in the summer is massive. PP just hasn't got the skills and gravitas to pull this off. He looks like he's mixed-up between whether to look firm and uncompromising, or apologetic and humble. And he achieved neither. Which makes things worse for us

[Miltonaggro]

2 hours ago, pingpong said:

I hope we have approached temporary replacements already, because I'm praying for Bielsa to come in on Friday as caretaker whilst tonda is suspended. It's the only way.

I would actually contribute £100 to that plan.

[Pamplemousse]

Get Rob Edwards in if we have to, he's a bit more defensive minded so hopefully can stop us leaking the stupid goals. It would also have the added benefit of severely winding up the cry babies in North Yorkshire.

[saintant]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

At this stage I've got no idea what the FA will hand down.  I go from suspended ban to season long ban, back and forth every day.  I tend to think it'll be on the longer side of things, FA have a chance to look tough on a smaller club.

However, if Tonda does cop a long ban, I'm not sure how other senior figures in the club aren't culpable too and should get the same.  Tonda doesn't have direct control of the analysis team; so the Analysis team management are surely as culpable (if not more culpable, as they should have the autonomy to refuse a request from team management that is outside the bounds of football rules).  

No doubt this will be fully covered by the ethics policy of Southampton FC as with any company. I'm sure all staff would have completed ethics training to make them aware of all rules and regs. I know it happened at every company I worked for in recent times.