Saints 1-4 West Ham - Match Thread

[Saint86]

10 hours ago, saintant said:

Tonight was an accident waiting to happen. We started the game with a midfield that included neither Downes, Jander or Charles - the latter two for obvious reasons. These 3 guys were the mainstay of last season's midfield. With none of them on the pitch and a defence marshalled by the hapless Capn Jack the result and performance was inevitable.

Its exactly like at times last season under Tonda where (at times) he does unfortunately show us how green he is as a manager tbh. I mentioned on the transfer window, but we field a side with none of its spine and then expected it to play well. No larin, no azaz, no jander, no downes, no THB... That is walking into a cock up with his eyes wide open (like at times last season before the run started). Its very frustrating and disappointing as ultimately the west ham side was there for the taking if we had gone just a little bit stronger. I'm willing to forgive it this time, but needs to learn from it and not do it again. Should have started2 of Downes, larin, and azaz and taken them off at 55min etc. and made sure we had enough core players on to drive the team an maintain control and standards. 

He does also need help with the squad - The jander injury and Charles sale has left us horribly exposed. Ditto THB being unavailable. Thats 2 of our best 4/5 players and 3 very good players for the champ, whilst at the same time we've been nursing Larin and Azaz's fitness coming back after the summer.

Edited 9 hours ago by Saint86

[saintoaks]

My thoughts for what it's worth.

Started with the club charging me £27 (including the booking fee). Do they actually remember what they put us through the back end of last season and where is this so called fans group to bring this up ?

Started ok, West Ham looked weak and there for the taking, Leo scored a good goal then didn't see him for the rest of the game.

Shocking goalkeeping for there goal and let them back in it.

Played sideways and backward football for the remainder of the game, no ideas, forcing the centre halves to give the ball away numerous times.

West Ham subs way to good for us, Wellington ruined by Bowen.

Dragans quote "the team that will take you out of your seats" will seriously be tested if the correct signings dont come in by the end of the window.

Do i feel the club owe us from what happend at the end of last season and have i continued to spend my money watching Saints home and abroad, the answer is maybe yes, i do want something back and i'm still angry, we will see by the end of the window i guess.

 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

51 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

We didn’t achieve what we did because “he cheated”. The unbeaten run was down to getting the most out of the players available, plus some luck. You are another one who has fallen for Gibbo’s guff. 

Got no clue what the fuck you're talking about.  If Tonda didn't send a scout to spy on Boro, we would have been in the play-off final.

I haven't fallen for anything.  Strange thing to say,

[Saint86]

10 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Tonda doesn’t deserve any credit.  Cost us the chance of Premier League football because he cheated.

Equally, there was essentially no chance of premier league football before he came in 🙃

Edited 9 hours ago by Saint86

[SW5 SAINT]

9 hours ago, gallaghert366@yahoo.com said:

I'm not convinced that SFC had any interest in progressing any further in this competition,

Saints were about the only Championship team to field a basically A team, most of the others fielded entirely B teams…!

Edited 9 hours ago by SW5 SAINT
Edit

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

7 minutes ago, saintoaks said:

Played sideways and backward football for the remainder of the game, no ideas, forcing the centre halves to give the ball away numerous times.

West Ham subs way to good for us,

Yes, this sideways and backwards crap is creeping noticeably back in to our style of play. Not just yesterday but also in our other league matches and carabao cup game. Much more positivity is needed.

And what's of concern is that their subs were up (apart from Manning) arguably our first team. Our guys looked like they couldn't be arsed so hopefully some rockets will be fired up some of them!

[Saint86]

19 minutes ago, SW5 SAINT said:

Saints were about the only Championship team to field a basically A team, most of the others fielded entirely B teams…!

We were missing 6 of our 7 best players... That is hardly the "A-team" (THB, Jander, Azaz, Larin, Manning, Downes) - People should be pissed off because we rotated so much and because the squad is not good enough currently.

We also had Akachugwu making his first senior start, and Wellington's first minutes of the season.

We'd have struggled to go with a significantly weaker starting 11 given the available players (who we aren't trying to ship out).

Edited 9 hours ago by Saint86

[Saint NL]

50 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Scienza took his goal well but I worry he's slowly morphing into Ryan Fraser (both in appearance and dribbling style) 

Thank you, I couldn't put my finger on it but you've nailed it there 

[Doctoroncall]

50 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Then why did we play 10 first team players. West Ham absolutely did not

Fitness and game play for the first team?

I can only think that end of last season, players were worn out so speculate a slow build up to protect the players from injury???? Only the coaches can give the definitive answer. 

[Baird of the land]

32 minutes ago, saintoaks said:

 

Dragans quote "the team that will take you out of your seats" will seriously be tested if the correct signings dont come in by the end of the window.

Does people getting up and walking out count as 'getting people out of their seats', if so we're well on track

[saintant]

Not sure why we've decided to return to playing Russball. Far too many passes going sideways and backwards.

We are much better driving forward and playing vertically rather than horizontally.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Dreadful. 
 

Second half as bad as anything under Will Still. The worrying thing it was the performances of the senior players  & players who will feature quite a bit, first team players. Stephen’s & Wood the obvious ones. But Bree is nowhere near where he was, Bragg seems to be going backwards ( or fucking sideways), Leo woeful again,  Tom F shows nothing that indicates he’s going to step up this season. Dobin is fucking pony. The lad up top minced around. Edozie weak as piss. I guess you can forgive Wellington as it was his first start, but the others. Dear God. 
 

It really was men against boys at the end of the game. 
 

No urgency, no fight & no passion. I thought we were going to stuff it down the EFL’s throat this season, use what happened as the trigger to drive us on. Instead of that we look like a load of show ponies sulking about it. Tonda needs to knock it out of people, and Spors needs to bring some real men in, blokes who weren’t affected by it who can impose their personality on the club like the keeper and Larin did last season, 

 

We’ve shown less passion, less determination & done more mincing about since that “injustice “, you’d expect more to put it right, not fuckjng less. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[Lee On Solent Saint]

26 minutes ago, saintant said:

Not sure why we've decided to return to playing Russball. Far too many passes going sideways and backwards.

We are much better driving forward and playing vertically rather than horizontally.

We've been found out. Or rather Eckert has. Makes you wonder just how many teams we managed to get a look at training sessions etc before getting caught out. 

[Greedyfly]

14 hours ago, Saint Scott said:

Akachukwu has looked really good in the middle so far. 

Dobbin having a bit of a stinker

I think he was one of only a few that came out of that game looking half decent.  Good player there.

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

We've been found out. Or rather Eckert has. Makes you wonder just how many teams we managed to get a look at training sessions etc before getting caught out. 

I'm not sure if 'watching a few training sessions' suddenly turns a poor manager into a really good one, or visa versa... Surely the benefit from such an activity is more about the fine margins rather than altering someone's fundamental aptitude?

[andrew7610]

It doesn't help that teams have noticed that if you spend the first 10 minutes of a game all taking turns to kick the shit out of Scienza, he totally fades out of the match.

[stfrancisofbenali]

12 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Have the club ever explained why we only played a couple of German farmers for pre-season?

 

We looked lethargic and unfit again tonight, as we have done since the season began.
 

I can’t help but feel like our preparation was completely undercooked. 

Did anyone else hear Manning’s post-match on Saturday where he said that it takes the first six weeks of the season to get going? Very strange comment from a highly paid professional sportsman whose team are starting with a -4 deficit. Watford certainly got going straight away. 

 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

15 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'm not sure if 'watching a few training sessions' suddenly turns a poor manager into a really good one, or visa versa... Surely the benefit from such an activity is more about the fine margins rather than altering someone's fundamental aptitude?

No idea. Depends on what scale and level it was happening at. I doubt it was just the three matches they took a lot at. We probably did it on more occasions.

[austsaint]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'm not sure if 'watching a few training sessions' suddenly turns a poor manager into a really good one, or visa versa... Surely the benefit from such an activity is more about the fine margins rather than altering someone's fundamental aptitude?

Good call.    It's not the gaining and loss of intel which has transformed an unstoppable team into a patchy one early on in the season; nor a bright, young Manager on a great run of success into a Will Still clone.

What is likely though is the Spygate fallout has deflated both team and Manager more than most thought, and has probably eroded the trust some players had in Tonda.   He was being hailed as a genius by some players; but in the end he's the guy who snatched away their chance to compete in the play off final.

There may well be disgruntled players thinking they were robbed of a crack at the Prem, and don't want to spend another season of attrition in the Championship,    They rolled a boulder up a hill in the second half of last season to be within touching distance of the great prize.   Put yourself in that position; it wouldn't be easy to roll your sleeves up and do it again, for the Manager who, in part, has let you down.

I hasn't helped either that we've been forced to play the likes of Bragg and Matsuki in central midfield, and to be suddenly without THB.

 

 

[Saint_lambden]

Anyone keeping count of how many goals we concede from down our left hand side? Whether it's Wellington or Manning at left-back, opposition teams constantly target us - knowing that Stephens is LCB too. 

Biggest concern for me is the physical side of the game. We get shrugged off far too easily, aren't aggressive enough off the ball and it's far too easy to play through us. 

If a strong CB and CM aren't signed in the next week - we'll be midtable at best. 

[Pengi]

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

Good call.    It's not the gaining and loss of intel which has transformed an unstoppable team into a patchy one early on in the season; nor a bright, young Manager on a great run of success into a Will Still clone.

What is likely though is the Spygate fallout has deflated both team and Manager more than most thought, and has probably eroded the trust some players had in Tonda.   He was being hailed as a genius by some players; but in the end he's the guy who snatched away their chance to compete in the play off final.

There may well be disgruntled players thinking they were robbed of a crack at the Prem, and don't want to spend another season of attrition in the Championship,    They rolled a boulder up a hill in the second half of last season to be within touching distance of the great prize.   Put yourself in that position; it wouldn't be easy to roll your sleeves up and do it again, for the Manager who, in part, has let you down.

I hasn't helped either that we've been forced to play the likes of Bragg and Matsuki in central midfield, and to be suddenly without THB.

 

 

I agree with this. Also think the uncertainty regarding the FA could also have an effect - particularly on Tonda.

[Saint NL]

2 hours ago, Doctoroncall said:

Fitness and game play for the first team?

You don't need to play your first team in the carabao cup to gain fitness if you have a proper preseason.

[stknowle]

3 hours ago, SW5 SAINT said:

Saints were about the only Championship team to field a basically A team, most of the others fielded entirely B teams…!

Yeah but our A team was clearly instructed to play like a B team and get knocked out.

[Doctoroncall]

45 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

You don't need to play your first team in the carabao cup to gain fitness if you have a proper preseason.

So why didn’t they?

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, Saint_lambden said:

Anyone keeping count of how many goals we concede from down our left hand side? Whether it's Wellington or Manning at left-back, opposition teams constantly target us - knowing that Stephens is LCB too. 

Biggest concern for me is the physical side of the game. We get shrugged off far too easily, aren't aggressive enough off the ball and it's far too easy to play through us. 

If a strong CB and CM aren't signed in the next week - we'll be midtable at best. 

You may be right, however for some reason (presumably under instruction) a lot of the damage was done because in defence Edozie moved to LB so that Welington could act as another CB, possibly because It was seen that Capt’n Jack was having a torrid time. Edozie failed to be an effective LB and Stephens got in the way of Welington in his hybrid LB-CB role. The whole thing was a fucking shitshow, but I don’t think you can blame Welington who was not match fit but still managed to be as good as any other SFC player on the pitch (not hard I’d agree).

[macca155]

Its always interesting to see the comments after the dust has settled, as a consensus appears to build. After a performance like the the fans will deservedly apportion blame, and frankly the players can suck it up. None of them covered themselves in glory yesterday. Frankly there is a bunch of them who need to go.

Bragg seems to be getting some stick but I think he was completely overrun yesterday. He's good but not that good. At the moment he is natural replacement for Downes or Jander, but not both of them and a bit of Charles all at once. How to ruin a player in one easy lesson.

I thought Akachukwu looked lively and showed some nice touches under pressure. However, he was playing in the wrong position, we needed his flicks, feints, and dummies further up the pitch. That sort of thing unlocks defences. He showed a  more promise than Dobbin or Mubama.

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, Saint NL said:

You don't need to play your first team in the carabao cup to gain fitness if you have a proper preseason.

It makes you wonder how clubs used to manage before “preseason” became a thing.

Was fitness on issue last night? To me it looked more like a bunch of players who hadn’t played with each other before. I lost count of the number of times that we gave the ball away in the second half. With the exception of probably Downes and Larin the rest looked like they had caught Captain Jack’s brain fart virus.

[rallyboy]

What's more annoying than watching your side concede a stupid goal?

The club App sending you a fucking message about it straight after, four times -  just in case you hadn't noticed the shitshow unfolding in front of your eyes.

 

[bugenhagen]

6 hours ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Yes, this sideways and backwards crap is creeping noticeably back in to our style of play. Not just yesterday but also in our other league matches and carabao cup game. Much more positivity is needed.

And what's of concern is that their subs were up (apart from Manning) arguably our first team. Our guys looked like they couldn't be arsed so hopefully some rockets will be fired up some of them!

 

6 hours ago, saintant said:

Not sure why we've decided to return to playing Russball. Far too many passes going sideways and backwards.

We are much better driving forward and playing vertically rather than horizontally.

I don't think that the sideways/backwards football is something that Tonda is changing. It was allways there. Also in the good parts last season. Only in the very difficult games were we a lot more direct (partly because the other team had a lot of the ball).

The difference is in the quality and confidence of the players. Remove Charles, Jander and THB - and we will struggle to play through the lines. Remove confidence from the less good players, and they will pass back to safety instead of trying something.

On top of this, when the runs stop being made (or if the opponent is extremely good at pressing and closing down), there is no good options to pass forward to.

[Jonnyboy]

7 hours ago, andrew7610 said:

It doesn't help that teams have noticed that if you spend the first 10 minutes of a game all taking turns to kick the shit out of Scienza, he totally fades out of the match.

He scored on 10 minutes

[die Mannyschaft]

5 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

You may be right, however for some reason (presumably under instruction) a lot of the damage was done because in defence Edozie moved to LB so that Welington could act as another CB, possibly because It was seen that Capt’n Jack was having a torrid time. Edozie failed to be an effective LB and Stephens got in the way of Welington in his hybrid LB-CB role. The whole thing was a fucking shitshow, but I don’t think you can blame Welington who was not match fit but still managed to be as good as any other SFC player on the pitch (not hard I’d agree).

The WHU number 9 turned 3 of our players inside in box  3 times. If he had the ability to do a snap shot he'd of got a hat trick.