Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Just reported in thr last half hour:- Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton. The Saints' future has been thrown into doubt recently as their parent company, Southampton Leisure Holdings, have gone into administration and they have so far avoided a points deduction. "We don't necessarily know all the ins and outs. It's easy for us to be outraged, but not until we know the facts," Browne told Luton Today. The Hatters were handed a 20-point penalty for a similar offence last season when their holding company Jayten entered administration and Browne is keen for consistency. "The Football League have continually spoken about the integrity of the competition, but if there is some way football clubs can rack up debts and put them in the name of a holding company, who is their 100 per cent owner, and enter insolvency, anything can happen to that company with no result to the football club," he added. "Personally I would be staggered if the Football League turn around and allow this to happen without a deduction." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 "We don't necessarily know all the ins and outs. It's easy for us to be outraged, but not until we know the facts," Browne told Luton Today. He says, while being outraged without knowing all (or indeed any) of the facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Is Luton Town Football Club an asset of a holding company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2009 He says that they had a holding company too, but was their holding company a PLC and does that make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Their situation was different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The problem Luton had with their holding company wasn't that it was in debt, it was that they used it to pay agents, which is strictly against the FA's rules. All fees to agents must go through the football club's accounts. They didn't do that, so got hit with a 10-point penalty from the FA. The Football League then added 20 points to that deduction because they failed to agree a CVA with its creditors when it exited administration, and because they had been in administration three times. It was the football club which held the debts, not the holding company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Just reported in thr last half hour:- Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton. The Saints' future has been thrown into doubt recently as their parent company, Southampton Leisure Holdings, have gone into administration and they have so far avoided a points deduction. "We don't necessarily know all the ins and outs. It's easy for us to be outraged, but not until we know the facts," Browne told Luton Today. The Hatters were handed a 20-point penalty for a similar offence last season when their holding company Jayten entered administration and Browne is keen for consistency. "The Football League have continually spoken about the integrity of the competition, but if there is some way football clubs can rack up debts and put them in the name of a holding company, who is their 100 per cent owner, and enter insolvency, anything can happen to that company with no result to the football club," he added. "Personally I would be staggered if the Football League turn around and allow this to happen without a deduction." Wes, no surprises there, will all clubs who have been deducted points please from an orderly queue. In the meantime all Football Club Chairman are busily restructuring their clubs and creating Holding Companies with fancy names. The winners it seems will be forensic accountants presumably these are accountants who simply know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Their situation was different If true they can shutup then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The problem Luton had with their holding company wasn't that it was in debt, it was that they used it to pay agents, which is strictly against the FA's rules. All fees to agents must go through the football club's accounts. They didn't do that, so got hit with a 10-point penalty from the FA. The Football League then added 20 points to that deduction because they failed to agree a CVA with its creditors when it exited administration, and because they had been in administration three times. It was the football club which held the debts, not the holding company. So they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on because the two situations are completely different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 So they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on because the two situations are completely different? Looks that way from Steve's rather elegent comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 If true they can shutup then. They can shout as much as they and other clubs want to, the reality is, if we have exploited that 'loophole' with our structure it will change nothing for them but will, sadly, for those on the brink of administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 So they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on because the two situations are completely different? Yes. Luton's "holding company" problem wasn't that it was in debt, it was that their directors stupidly put payments to agents through there, presumably as some sort of cover-up. The thing that they're ****ed off about (and with some degree of sympathy from me) is that club officials pointed out the irregularities to the FA when they found out what the directors had done. The FA would probably never have found them had they not been tipped off, and Luton's "reward" for exposing their former directors? A 10-point penalty, which will almost certainly cost them their place in the Football League. The directors' penalty? Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2009 HaHaHa, Trousers. Why the picture of Roland Rat? Is it because he was the only Rat ever to save a sinking ship? And is our dear ole Rupes the one that might have saved this one by jumping ship, but by the device of the administration of the PLC and not the club, left the ship's rudder headed away from the rocks and towards calmer waters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Yes. Luton's "holding company" problem wasn't that it was in debt, it was that their directors stupidly put payments to agents through there, presumably as some sort of cover-up. The thing that they're ****ed off about (and with some degree of sympathy from me) is that club officials pointed out the irregularities to the FA when they found out what the directors had done. The FA would probably never have found them had they not been tipped off, and Luton's "reward" for exposing their former directors? A 10-point penalty, which will almost certainly cost them their place in the Football League. The directors' penalty? Nothing. This is the real point Steve. I don't think any sensible fan the length and breadth of the league thinks Luton have been treated fairly. The league should be pursuing the Directors through the courts not applying a penalty to Nick Owen and the fans!!!! Their story is a fecking disgrace to football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Yes. Luton's "holding company" problem wasn't that it was in debt, it was that their directors stupidly put payments to agents through there, presumably as some sort of cover-up. The thing that they're ****ed off about (and with some degree of sympathy from me) is that club officials pointed out the irregularities to the FA when they found out what the directors had done. The FA would probably never have found them had they not been tipped off, and Luton's "reward" for exposing their former directors? A 10-point penalty, which will almost certainly cost them their place in the Football League. The directors' penalty? Nothing. It's the same story everywhere. Run the business irresponsibly, pick up your bonuses, by the time anyone finds out you're gone with a 750k annual pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Their situation was different Exactly! They were docked points for financial irregularities and fraud!! It's none of their business, and they should be rebuked for their comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Wes, no surprises there, will all clubs who have been deducted points please from an orderly queue. In the meantime all Football Club Chairman are busily restructuring their clubs and creating Holding Companies with fancy names. The winners it seems will be forensic accountants presumably these are accountants who simply know what they are doing. I'm delighted that stevegrant has proven to my satisfaction for one that Luton's situation is totally different from ours, especially if it was the club with the debt and not the holding company. It is inherent upon the FA to close this loophole so that no other club can take advantage of it, but as far as I'm aware, there can be no retrospective action taken against those who have exploited a loophole. Undoubtedly Luton's bluster will attempt to apply pressure on the FA to punish us as they were punished, but if Steve is correct, then there is no way that any legal action will prevail. On the other hand, we might well have good grounds for legal as far as I can see if we were to be deducted points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 It's disgraceful really. I'm sorry they lost points, but wanting other clubs to suffer just because they have is pathetic. They don't know our situation yet they're shouting about it already. The Football League should make their decision independently, yet if that were the case, it would be over and we wouldn't be docked points. The only way we can be is if they change the rules, which they usually do. But clubs like Luton are just so bitter they want to see more casualties. I'm not sure if that's worse than the likes of Barnsley and Forest being so desperate that they're demanding points deductions to secure their own status. Stay up because you gained more points ffs, not because we had a deduction. I wouldn't wish administration on any club, yet it seems many other clubs just don't care anymore. But didn't we try a half-hearted whimper last season when Sheffield were allegedly fielding an illegal player (something to do with the number of loanees allowed to play in a match)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Stay up because you gained more points ffs, not because we had a deduction. I Except if we had made further reductions to our playng staff in order to cut costs further as our financial situation demanded, they would quite possibly have gained more points than us rather easily. I can see their point, just as I could see why the 10 point deduction was brought in after Leicester mugged everyone else and morally I believe we're due a deduction. However, if we're legally free of punishment, I'll not lose much sleep. If the league won't punish Billy Davies for being an obnoxious little c*nt or Chris Morgan for assaulting Ian Hume, as they morally ought to, they have no reason to start on us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonaggro Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The precedent that Luton should look to; and the one that the Football League are very concerned about is Derby County when Burley was manager in 2003. After Derby's 'holding company' entered administration with debts far greater than Saints following relegation, it was found that a number of Directors had acted fraudulently - thus, the 'crime' was far greater than that of Saints and NO points were deducted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stardustonmyfeet Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 TBF I'd be bitter if I supported Luton, the football league were unbelieveably harsh on them. Hope they get out of trouble fast. As for us, I'm feeling much more confident about our situation. Mind you I still feel we'll go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 HaHaHa, Trousers. Why the picture of Roland Rat? Is it because he was the only Rat ever to save a sinking ship? And is our dear ole Rupes the one that might have saved this one by jumping ship, but by the device of the administration of the PLC and not the club, left the ship's rudder headed away from the rocks and towards calmer waters? Not quite as imaginative as that I'm afraid. Roland Rat = TV-am = Nick Owen = Luton Town There's got to be an outlet for my never ending talent somewhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Not quite as imaginative as that I'm afraid. Roland Rat = TV-am = Nick Owen = Luton Town There's got to be an outlet for my never ending talent somewhere.... Well, at least I got it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 (edited) The problem Luton had with their holding company wasn't that it was in debt, it was that they used it to pay agents, which is strictly against the FA's rules. .... Edited 9 April, 2009 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The precedent that Luton should look to; and the one that the Football League are very concerned about is Derby County when Burley was manager in 2003. After Derby's 'holding company' entered administration with debts far greater than Saints following relegation, it was found that a number of Directors had acted fraudulently - thus, the 'crime' was far greater than that of Saints and NO points were deducted... Burley strikes again, in fact how many clubs that have gone into administration has he actually been involved with. Anyway stop citing derby, the points deduction was not enforced until the season after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycrow Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 That's a headline from nothing. Not one quote mentions legal action. Typical lazy journos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2009 That's a headline from nothing. Not one quote mentions legal action. Typical lazy journos "Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton". Doesn't it? This seems to be a fairly conclusive mention of taking legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 "Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton". Doesn't it? This seems to be a fairly conclusive mention of taking legal action. Any quote from Luton that mentions legal action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Luton were not a public company. The holding company was just another limited company that owned a football club. A public company is a completely different thing and the league know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 It's disgraceful really. I'm sorry they lost points, but wanting other clubs to suffer just because they have is pathetic. They don't know our situation yet they're shouting about it already. The Football League should make their decision independently, yet if that were the case, it would be over and we wouldn't be docked points. The only way we can be is if they change the rules, which they usually do. But clubs like Luton are just so bitter they want to see more casualties. I'm not sure if that's worse than the likes of Barnsley and Forest being so desperate that they're demanding points deductions to secure their own status. Stay up because you gained more points ffs, not because we had a deduction. I wouldn't wish administration on any club, yet it seems many other clubs just don't care anymore. I would be embarrassed if my club were down but then stayed up because another club got docked points like we might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 9 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Any quote from Luton that mentions legal action? Am I being thick here, or something? A Luton director says the club...... Was this Luton director talking about his golf club or Stringfellows or anybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Luton won't be sueing the league, they have accepted the FIFA/FA/League rules that they are not allowed to sue. They can only use the prescribed rules of appeal. That is why SLH a public company had to be seperate from the football club company as it could sue the pants off anybody but the club can only appeal. Again, the club are not in administration, Luton FC were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Am I being thick here, or something? A Luton director says the club...... Was this Luton director talking about his golf club or Stringfellows or anybody else? You clearly are I'm afraid, Wes. Headline - "Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton". Actual quotes that mention legal action - 0. Kinder people than I would call it "journalistic licence". I call it bullsh1t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwarwick Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 He says, while being outraged without knowing all (or indeed any) of the facts... Yes, it's funny how he wants to take legal action about something he doesn't know the ins and outs about and is clueless of the facts. I felt sorry for Luton when they got that massive points deduction. I don't now, hope they enjoy life in the conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 You clearly are I'm afraid, Wes. Headline - "Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton". Actual quotes that mention legal action - 0. Kinder people than I would call it "journalistic licence". I call it bullsh1t. Wes - I think you and I must wear the same glasses. The sort that help us read sentences and understand them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 some views of Luton fans of what went on and what they went through on here if anyone is interested: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/apr/08/debate-southampton-insolvency-points-deduction Also Stephen Browne saying why he's against points deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Just reported in thr last half hour:- Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton. The Saints' future has been thrown into doubt recently as their parent company, Southampton Leisure Holdings, have gone into administration and they have so far avoided a points deduction. "We don't necessarily know all the ins and outs. It's easy for us to be outraged, but not until we know the facts," Browne told Luton Today. The Hatters were handed a 20-point penalty for a similar offence last season when their holding company Jayten entered administration and Browne is keen for consistency. "The Football League have continually spoken about the integrity of the competition, but if there is some way football clubs can rack up debts and put them in the name of a holding company, who is their 100 per cent owner, and enter insolvency, anything can happen to that company with no result to the football club," he added. "Personally I would be staggered if the Football League turn around and allow this to happen without a deduction." A holding company won't make a blind bit of difference, it has to be a quoted public company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwarwick Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Wes - I think you and I must wear the same glasses. The sort that help us read sentences and understand them. You share the same glesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 It's disgraceful really. I'm sorry they lost points, but wanting other clubs to suffer just because they have is pathetic. They don't know our situation yet they're shouting about it already. The Football League should make their decision independently, yet if that were the case, it would be over and we wouldn't be docked points. The only way we can be is if they change the rules, which they usually do. But clubs like Luton are just so bitter they want to see more casualties. I'm not sure if that's worse than the likes of Barnsley and Forest being so desperate that they're demanding points deductions to secure their own status. Stay up because you gained more points ffs, not because we had a deduction. I wouldn't wish administration on any club, yet it seems many other clubs just don't care anymore. Well said. I've never liked Luton much since they had a plastc pitch and banned away fans in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Burley strikes again, in fact how many clubs that have gone into administration has he actually been involved with. Anyway stop citing derby, the points deduction was not enforced until the season after. That's exactly what worries me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Wes - I think you and I must wear the same glasses. The sort that help us read sentences and understand them. Where's the quote from LTFC then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Where's the quote from LTFC then? From the OP: Luton director Stephen Browne admits the club are prepared to take legal action against the Football League if they fail to dock points from Southampton I suppose, with hindsight, the salient point is that it is not a quote but reportage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 It would be great if we weasel our way out of this 10 points AND stay up, everyone would hate our guts, it would be a bit like supporting Man U. If we beat Wolves on Friday a whole load of clubs will start crying like babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 It would be great if we weasel our way out of this 10 points AND stay up, everyone would hate our guts, it would be a bit like supporting Man U. Except without the cup finals, trophies, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NunoSaint Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The Luton Director was on Talksport. He said that he doesn't want Saints to be deducted the points (after all us getting point deducted has no direct effect on them), but if the Football League didn't then they would be talking up the issue with the Football League because, as far as Luton Town is concerned, there are similarities between the manners in which administration was under taken. As far as I could make out the, best situation for LTFC would be for us to avoid a points deduction so they could try to get some/all of there points back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Forever Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The Luton Director was on Talksport. He said that he doesn't want Saints to be deducted the points (after all us getting point deducted has no direct effect on them), but if the Football League didn't then they would be talking up the issue with the Football League because, as far as Luton Town is concerned, there are similarities between the manners in which administration was under taken. As far as I could make out the, best situation for LTFC would be for us to avoid a points deduction so they could try to get some/all of there points back. That would make sense. It still wouldn't be much help to them though at the moment. A couple of good results could make it interesting though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 The Luton Director was on Talksport. He said that he doesn't want Saints to be deducted the points (after all us getting point deducted has no direct effect on them), but if the Football League didn't then they would be talking up the issue with the Football League because, as far as Luton Town is concerned, there are similarities between the manners in which administration was under taken. As far as I could make out the, best situation for LTFC would be for us to avoid a points deduction so they could try to get some/all of there points back. He's barking up the wrong tree, LT was/is not a plc. The same rules don't apply and SFC is solvent and not in administration. I think it's a case of ' Don't confuse me with the facts' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycrow Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 Wes - I think you and I must wear the same glasses. The sort that help us read sentences and understand them. No, the point is that the only mention of legal action in the story comes from the journo. The actual words spoken by the Luton Town Director never mention legal action, or even hint at it. Its like a tabloid leading with "Gerrard blasts Benitez tactics against Chelsea" when the only quote from Gerrard in the story is "I think the manager might change a few things now if we were playing the game again" They've made up a lot worse from more innocuous quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 9 April, 2009 Share Posted 9 April, 2009 all of you need to stop sweating,the league havnt got a leg to stand on,if they had then they would have already given us the 10 point deduction and as for luton then i laugh at their blustering.........they are just bitter that they didnt find the loophole,i hate to say it but honesty = zilch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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