Prowsey

Matt Oakley was a great player for us!

 

Some people can’t see what players like Oakley, JWP and Steven Davis contribute, but we miss them when they don’t play - linking together the ball winners, the wide players and the forwards.

Yawn. If your ball winners aren't good enough to pass the ball to your ball players, you need to get new ball winners. Irrelevant in our case anyway, as all three of our ball winners are better passers than SD anyway (JWP might actually be a very good passer if he played with a little more speed and confidence, but that's wish fulfilment for another day).

He was rated as man of the match against a top 6 side. He did well and we are fortunate to have him.

I don't recall Beckham being very good in the air either, and whilst I'm not suggesting JWP is quite that good yet, he is the same sort of player. Just keep playing him on the right side of midfield/attack, and let him take the free kicks and corners.

Fair point. I was just thinking of Saints present predicament where they need midfield players to support the main striker.

I'm convinced he would have buried that chance that Boufal had near the end (Bouf took an extra touch and it was blocked).

I'm convinced he would have buried that chance that Boufal had near the end (Bouf took an extra touch and it was blocked).

Maybe he would have - yet against Watford JWP's first goal was a deflection which fell kindly and he had time and took 2 or three touches before "passing" the ball in the net - good finish. Boufal's opportunity was quite different, he ran on to the pass and had defenders around him and pressing; took one touch and had his shot blocked. Perhaps he should have tried to lob the defender.

Something fishy about him

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I rate JWP and Oakley higher than Davis, both of them were quicker decision makers. Davis seems to be quite indecisive, especially with the ball.

Used to be a huge fan of Davis, but he’s certainly declined in the last 18 months. Now should be 5th choice behind Romeu, Hojbjerg, Lemina and JWP. Probably still good to have in the squad and around the dressing room though, done us a great service.

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The biggest thing with JWP is he needs to nail a position in the side and show some consistency, he is clearly talented, probably the most technically adept player we have at the club and the mental side of his game is developing well. But he needs to show what he did on Sunday and other games more often.

Physically he is never going to be great, at best he can make himself as strong as he can and as fit as he can but he's never going to be fast or dominant physically, he just doesn't have that in him, but it doesn't mean he can't be a very good player for us. He also needs to start scoring a few more goals, he shows glimpses of it but again not consistently. Though I do think he is becoming smarter around the box with his movement, if he could pick up that knack of arriving late onto stuff and anticipating stuff like Lampard or Shcoles used to do that would be a huge boost for him and the team.

The biggest thing with JWP is he needs to nail a position in the side and show some consistency, he is clearly talented, probably the most technically adept player we have at the club and the mental side of his game is developing well. But he needs to show what he did on Sunday and other games more often.

 

Physically he is never going to be great, at best he can make himself as strong as he can and as fit as he can but he's never going to be fast or dominant physically, he just doesn't have that in him, but it doesn't mean he can't be a very good player for us. He also needs to start scoring a few more goals, he shows glimpses of it but again not consistently. Though I do think he is becoming smarter around the box with his movement, if he could pick up that knack of arriving late onto stuff and anticipating stuff like Lampard or Shcoles used to do that would be a huge boost for him and the team.

What do you mean by most technically adept?

What do you mean by most technically adept?

He's the best at nearly scoring free kicks?

He's the best at nearly scoring free kicks?

He has a fancy setpiece run-up?

He has a fancy setpiece run-up?

... and he does a very good line in mimicry, now adoptiing the Johnny Wilkinson concentrated looking sequence, first at the ball, then at the goal, then at the ball, then at the goal before kicking it over the bar!

Hang on JWP, isn't it supposed to go under the bar?

... and he does a very good line in mimicry, now adoptiing the Johnny Wilkinson concentrated looking sequence, first at the ball, then at the goal, then at the ball, then at the goal before kicking it over the bar!

Our whole family places their arm in the air before he takes a corner, it's become a meme for us.

Seriously though if he could just crack his consistency issues he'd always be in my starting eleven *****il we can afford / find someone better).

Was having this discussion after the game on Sunday-If we go down, I think JWP would be one of the players multiple PL clubs come after first.

He has 150+ PL appearances by age 23 which is remarkable in anyone's books

Was having this discussion after the game on Sunday-If we go down, I think JWP would be one of the players multiple PL clubs come after first.

 

He has 150+ PL appearances by age 23 which is remarkable in anyone's books

This. Saints will not be able to keep him if relegated. He is too good for the Championship. Top, top player in the making.

... and he does a very good line in mimicry, now adoptiing the Johnny Wilkinson concentrated looking sequence, first at the ball, then at the goal, then at the ball, then at the goal before kicking it over the bar!

 

Hang on JWP, isn't it supposed to go under the bar?

Keeps the commentators happy at being able to trot out their Dead Ball Specialist lines.

What do you mean by most technically adept?

As in the most technical player, a good executer of skills, and no that doesn't mean fancy flicks.

Just watch him, how he strikes a ball, body shape, various types of passing etc. he is pretty much textbook.

It takes a while for central midfielders to reach their potential. Morgan Schneiderlin took several seasons before nailing down a first choice spot.

I have been very impressed with JWP this season and is one of the few players we have currently who would flourish in a better team. The ball in to Stephens on Sunday was an absolute peach - everyone knew it was coming but Spurs still couldn't defend it.

On form, talent and on commitment JWP would be in my starting 11 for sure.

Biggest difference for me is that he's now regularly getting into goal-scoring positions when we're attacking, always in and around the box. Good player and deserves a place in the starting XI (though realistically, who's the alternative on the right? Redmond?).

For me he's a step down from the absolute best, much like matt Oakley, if he was the next level up he'd already be gone! If we stay up he will be a quality servant of the club that we will miss when he's gone again much like Oakley!

Keeps the commentators happy at being able to trot out their Dead Ball Specialist lines.

It's insufferable, isn't it?!

Imagine his balls going in to someone like Giroud!

It's insufferable, isn't it?!

He came up on Hawksbee and Jacobs show on Talksport, when they were discussing the Silva to us / Sun link with Alex Crook ().

Said they couldn't believe how he hasn't been a regular since the start of the season, but all they could muster in terms of his abilities where "he must have the best dead ball delivery in the league."

Imagine his balls going in to someone like Giroud!

Oh.........

For someone with such a good deadball, he's not particularly creative or incisive with his range of passing.

For someone with such a good deadball, he's not particularly creative or incisive with his range of passing.

Yeah that's one of things I find strange, surely his "technical supremacy" [sic] would also be reflected in his ability with a moving ball as well.

Imagine his balls going in to someone like Giroud!

Giroud is a handsome chap, no doubt, but that's going too far.

I should have said crosses shouldn't I ! Someone just post a picture of a tea bag and have done with it

As in the most technical player, a good executer of skills, and no that doesn't mean fancy flicks.

 

Just watch him, how he strikes a ball, body shape, various types of passing etc. he is pretty much textbook.

Nah.

Disagree entirely. Been coached; learned it. Doesn't have it. Much as you'll hate it a proper footballer e.g. VVD does all that without a second's pause. That's when you know they've got it. He kicks the ball all wrong, receives it all wrong, etc.

Yes, he's done better of late but I tend to agree with Alpine on this while thinking Oakley was a better player. Davis was too until he went to pieces and he should be retired to join the coaching staff at the end of the season.

Was having this discussion after the game on Sunday-If we go down, I think JWP would be one of the players multiple PL clubs come after first.

 

He has 150+ PL appearances by age 23 which is remarkable in anyone's books

Exactly. I think he is really underrated by many on here. To put his record in perspective, I *think* he is only 1 year older than Sam Gallagher, who we temd to consider still a youth , and we all hope is still going to develop into a top player, yet JWP is judged by 'grown up' first team standards and has been for several years.

He's not a central midfielder. He wants to play there, maybe he thinks he is but players aren't the best judge. Tadic wanted to be a no10, most creative players do, to control the match more, but very few can do it.

 

JWP is a right midfielder. He can cross, pass, score a few and mainly, set pieces. If he's central, crossing is gone, defensive work isn't great and you suddenly have an average player in the role. I'd play him RM every week, but if not there, he shouldn't be playing. Romeu, Lemina and Hojbjerg are far better central midfielders.

 

Only criticism wide is lack of pace. Yet how many players with pace can actually cross or shoot? Bit tired of pace for the sake of pace.

You make a good point with your last sentence. Ideally you want someone wide with pace who can exploit the space and deliver a good cross (aerial or across the carpet). The closest we have is Bertrand - perhaps Tadic from the left, although he's not particularly quick and Boufal, who I still think is better with a licence to be more central. Cedric has every wide, fast attribute but his crossing is hit and miss. I can see why JWP is played out there for the delivery and goal attempts when he hustles into the box; what you give up is the lack of real speed and width, and marginal defensive cover.

This. Saints will not be able to keep him if relegated. He is too good for the Championship. Top, top player in the making.

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

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I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

Cracking summary.

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

In his defence you are called Larry

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

LOL.

I beg to differ. I think he is shiiite. He can't jump .He can't win headers. He can't run past anybody. He has no feet skill and HAS to pass the ball. He can't tackle. He can't catch up with breakaways, cos he is usually the slowest player on the pitch.

He NEVER marks anybody when defending in his own half. He doesn't give consistent delivery on dead balls. He can't keep possession like Tadic. He scores every January. He can't kick the shot on goal with his instep. He has got the snottiest nose in football.

His mum watches Eastenders.

Okay We are all entitled to our opinion but with all due respect (very little) yours is utter nonsense but you will bang on regardless

Nah.

 

Disagree entirely. Been coached; learned it. Doesn't have it. Much as you'll hate it a proper footballer e.g. VVD does all that without a second's pause. That's when you know they've got it. He kicks the ball all wrong, receives it all wrong, etc.

 

Yes, he's done better of late but I tend to agree with Alpine on this while thinking Oakley was a better player. Davis was too until he went to pieces and he should be retired to join the coaching staff at the end of the season.

Well I disagree entirely. VVDs casual play has cost him multiple times and is probably his biggest flaw, that and his lapses in concentration. He flatters to deceive IMO.

I'd take JWP on the ball all day every day, he reminds me Lampard at times in the way he moves the ball around, receives it etc. He just doesn't have that guys ability to read the game or be in the right position, but then Lampard didn't really start hitting his stride until he was 25-26, people thought he only got in the West Ham team cos his uncle was manager.

What let's him down is his physicality and his confidence, he looks like a lad without much ego and at times looks like he doesn't think he's good enough, but being shoved around positions and in and out of the team doesn't help.

VVD is an arrogant so and so, so he plays like that on the pitch, plus he's quick and huge, so most of the time when he mucked up, he can quickly rectify the mistake because he could go chase the man down or bully them off the ball as it's rare he's not one of the biggest on the pitch.

So his mistakes are less noticeable and then he'll stride around with the ball, win some header, play some hollywood ball, everyone claps and the fans forget he just mucked up. Not to mention he is a centre-back so people see any centre-back that can play a bit and think he is amazing, I've seen comments about him playing in midfield, but I am willing to bet he'd be crap at it. He's not as good on the ball as people think he is, he'd need way more time on the ball then he'd get. He's just good compared to most centre-backs (not to mention many British football fans still think a ball playing centre-back is a bit of an alien concept) and the game is a lot easier when the majority of it is in front of you and no one closes you down that much (because most teams don't play a high press).

I'm midfielder and I've played centre-back a few times for my team and that side of it is much easier than playing centre-mid, having everything in front of you, usually getting way more time on the ball, etc. The actual defending bit, marking, tackling etc. that bit is hard, but any person that has played a lot of games in midfield at any level, who then plays a bit at centre-back will know that the on the ball bit feels super easy to a midfielder.

JWP doesn't have that, he works his socks off, but he's not quick and he's not big and strong, so when he makes a mistake it's more noticeable cos he struggles to rectify it and people slate it for him. Plus in midfield he will be under a lot more pressure on the ball, against quick opposition midfielders, the league is full of fast and strong defensive mids.

People are just expecting a 23 year old to be playing like a 27-29 year old cos he's been around the team for so long, midfielders generally don't peak and fully master the game until that age.

I tend to got with the fact that the guy is picked and rated by multiple managers, picked for the England team and is highly rated by pretty much every pundit. I tend to think those people know more about it than any of us.

I agree with others above, I think if we went down he'd be wanted by several clubs.

BTW Oakley was very good, but looked good in a generally poor team, I'd also reckon the standard of league then was worse and the game was probably less quick.

Well I disagree entirely. VVDs casual play has cost him multiple times and is probably his biggest flaw, that and his lapses in concentration. He flatters to deceive IMO.

 

I'd take JWP on the ball all day every day, he reminds me Lampard at times in the way he moves the ball around, receives it etc. He just doesn't have that guys ability to read the game or be in the right position, but then Lampard didn't really start hitting his stride until he was 25-26, people thought he only got in the West Ham team cos his uncle was manager.

 

What let's him down is his physicality and his confidence, he looks like a lad without much ego and at times looks like he doesn't think he's good enough, but being shoved around positions and in and out of the team doesn't help.

 

VVD is an arrogant so and so, so he plays like that on the pitch, plus he's quick and huge, so most of the time when he mucked up, he can quickly rectify the mistake because he could go chase the man down or bully them off the ball as it's rare he's not one of the biggest on the pitch.

 

So his mistakes are less noticeable and then he'll stride around with the ball, win some header, play some hollywood ball, everyone claps and the fans forget he just mucked up. Not to mention he is a centre-back so people see any centre-back that can play a bit and think he is amazing, I've seen comments about him playing in midfield, but I am willing to bet he'd be crap at it. He's not as good on the ball as people think he is, he'd need way more time on the ball then he'd get. He's just good compared to most centre-backs (not to mention many British football fans still think a ball playing centre-back is a bit of an alien concept) and the game is a lot easier when the majority of it is in front of you and no one closes you down that much (because most teams don't play a high press).

 

I'm midfielder and I've played centre-back a few times for my team and that side of it is much easier than playing centre-mid, having everything in front of you, usually getting way more time on the ball, etc. The actual defending bit, marking, tackling etc. that bit is hard, but any person that has played a lot of games in midfield at any level, who then plays a bit at centre-back will know that the on the ball bit feels super easy to a midfielder.

 

JWP doesn't have that, he works his socks off, but he's not quick and he's not big and strong, so when he makes a mistake it's more noticeable cos he struggles to rectify it and people slate it for him. Plus in midfield he will be under a lot more pressure on the ball, against quick opposition midfielders, the league is full of fast and strong defensive mids.

 

People are just expecting a 23 year old to be playing like a 27-29 year old cos he's been around the team for so long, midfielders generally don't peak and fully master the game until that age.

 

I tend to got with the fact that the guy is picked and rated by multiple managers, picked for the England team and is highly rated by pretty much every pundit. I tend to think those people know more about it than any of us.

 

I agree with others above, I think if we went down he'd be wanted by several clubs.

 

BTW Oakley was very good, but looked good in a generally poor team, I'd also reckon the standard of league then was worse and the game was probably less quick.

Wow.

I think JWP can only claim to be anywhere near as good as Oakley once he's managed to hold down a place in the team for a length of time.

Oakley used to get slated week in week out on here for strolling around the pitch like he wasn't bothered and contributing little, often alongside Kevin Davies. Then every time he was out long term, he became the missing saviour of the team, only to be slated again after he returned. One of those players who was rated higher when they weren't playing. Davies and Oakley both found a new lease of life and became more battling, combative players after they left. They were both pretty lacklustre during the couple of years before they went though and there was no outcry at their departure. Obviously that only came when they did better at their new clubs.

Oakley used to get slated week in week out on here for strolling around the pitch like he wasn't bothered and contributing little, often alongside Kevin Davies. Then every time he was out long term, he became the missing saviour of the team, only to be slated again after he returned. One of those players who was rated higher when they weren't playing. Davies and Oakley both found a new lease of life and became more battling, combative players after they left. They were both pretty lacklustre during the couple of years before they went though and there was no outcry at their departure. Obviously that only came when they did better at their new clubs.

Mane was slated by the mongs on here, doesn't mean anything.

Wow.

Indeed. If JWP ends up being our all time record goalscorer like Lampard has at Chelsea, then I admit he would have exceeded my expectations.

He's very highly rated and with good reason.

.

By whom? Certainly not highly enough by Southgate who has worked with him for years.

Indeed. If JWP ends up being our all time record goalscorer like Lampard has at Chelsea, then I admit he would have exceeded my expectations.

There is a good comparison with Lampard to be made in that young Frank had plenty of games for the Hammers at a young age and had the fanbase on his back because he was a midfielder who wasn't a standout at anything - wasn't great at tackling, passing shooting, tracking back, etc, wasn't particularly strong or fast.

He was however OK at pretty much all of those things, had a good football brain and a good attitude. This wasn't good enough for the gobby Hammers fans who wanted a young midfielder learning the game to be the finished article and weren't prepared to cut him much slack. In Lampard's case this was compounded by an unfair belief that Frank was only in the team because his uncle was the manager.

And so they hounded him out, he joined Chelsea and the rest is history but Frank hates the club now because of the way the fans treated him, which is quite something when you consider who his old man was.

Now JWP may carry on improving and become a very good midfielder or he may have plateaued and be destined to be an average Premier League player who is only really good at free kicks, time will tell, but I bet all those West Ham fans who wrote off the developing Frank Lampard and *****ed about how he was no good at anything and only got in the team because of his connections are feeling that they missed out on something pretty special now.

By whom? Certainly not highly enough by Southgate who has worked with him for years.

Except he capped him at full level when he was playing regularly last and made him his U21 captain, so Yeh must hate him !

Hoped he'd be a Beckham or Gerrard, think he'll end up more of a Leon Osman though (which is still no bad thing)

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There is a good comparison with Lampard to be made in that young Frank had plenty of games for the Hammers at a young age and had the fanbase on his back because he was a midfielder who wasn't a standout at anything - wasn't great at tackling, passing shooting, tracking back, etc, wasn't particularly strong or fast.

 

He was however OK at pretty much all of those things, had a good football brain and a good attitude. This wasn't good enough for the gobby Hammers fans who wanted a young midfielder learning the game to be the finished article and weren't prepared to cut him much slack. In Lampard's case this was compounded by an unfair belief that Frank was only in the team because his uncle was the manager.

 

And so they hounded him out, he joined Chelsea and the rest is history but Frank hates the club now because of the way the fans treated him, which is quite something when you consider who his old man was.

 

Now JWP may carry on improving and become a very good midfielder or he may have plateaued and be destined to be an average Premier League player who is only really good at free kicks, time will tell, but I bet all those West Ham fans who wrote off the developing Frank Lampard and *****ed about how he was no good at anything and only got in the team because of his connections are feeling that they missed out on something pretty special now.

Only Lampard was already a 10 goal+ a season midfielder (across league and cup admittedly) when he was still in his teens. That said, the really big seasons didn't start until he was 25/26, so there's still time for JWP, even though he is building on a lesser goalscoring foundation.

Indeed. If JWP ends up being our all time record goalscorer like Lampard has at Chelsea, then I admit he would have exceeded my expectations.

well he's got 9 goals so far so only another 219 to equal Channon's record