Frygate- Tail wags the dog? A forum exposé

[shurlock]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1197918/Charles-Sale-Whats-Fry-cooking-Saints-now.html

 

Extremely interesting - as discussed on the forum on thursday

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13902&page=80.

 

Presumably Sale was tipped off (as i remember wilde was online at the time we were discussing this) or did someone write to the Mail themselves (hope you've now washed your hands)?

 

No doubt BT will issue a statement faster than they've been milking the takeover. Hopefully there wont be (and in reality cant see there being) any negative fallout for completion. Congrats all round.

 

[Verbal]

As Wiseman rather startlingly says, 'We knew he [Richard Fry] was really in charge of the club.' So the man in charge causes the collapse of the club and then joins the company appointed to carry out the highly lucrative process of administration. Presumably Fry will be happy to answer questions about conflict of interest, and about how this isn't in any way dodgy.

 

And Gold Star to Dubai Phil!

[chocco boxo]

After RL I think everyone and their dog looks upon a fan of Southampton FC as being "a f8cking idiot"

[teamsaint]

Hmmmmmmm, so odds on the legal issues going on and on and on and on , until real bidders lose interest?

[dubai_phil]

I think I should be up for an award at the Sports Journo of the year awards!

 

(He says modestly)

 

Don't get much right but I heard this from my City source and it sounded just plain wrong. It was pretty easy for our google kings to track down the hard facts. Hmm maybe the Mail owes this site a donation - c'mon Sale send in your fiver!

 

I said I was very worried at the start of the process, too many things do not seem right, too many strange rumours popping out - remember the cr*p Weston Saint & I got for pointing out a rumour about Pinnacle's bid.

 

These two so far are the only ones I have dug out anything that could have been called corroborative evidence for. This was simple googling, but still needed to have confirmation that it was one and the same Richard Fry, obviously the Mail have done some homework on that photo. The Pinnacle one was non-attributable I'm afraid as it was a business associate but it turned out to be spot on.

 

Others on here have heard one or two other snippets, but absolutely nothing else seems to have any provable substance.

 

Fry going to BT would not have really been a big issue. Putting him on the web site and then removing it. Now that stinks

[saint_mears]

who really gives a toss ZZZ

[CanadaSaint]

Fry going to BT would not have really been a big issue. Putting him on the web site and then removing it. Now that stinks

 

After forcing SLH into administration? How is that not a big issue, Phil?

 

BTW, great work!

[John D]

I think I should be up for an award at the Sports Journo of the year awards!

 

(He says modestly)

 

Don't get much right but I heard this from my City source and it sounded just plain wrong. It was pretty easy for our google kings to track down the hard facts. Hmm maybe the Mail owes this site a donation - c'mon Sale send in your fiver!

 

I said I was very worried at the start of the process, too many things do not seem right, too many strange rumours popping out - remember the cr*p Weston Saint & I got for pointing out a rumour about Pinnacle's bid.

 

These two so far are the only ones I have dug out anything that could have been called corroborative evidence for. This was simple googling, but still needed to have confirmation that it was one and the same Richard Fry, obviously the Mail have done some homework on that photo. The Pinnacle one was non-attributable I'm afraid as it was a business associate but it turned out to be spot on.

 

Others on here have heard one or two other snippets, but absolutely nothing else seems to have any provable substance.

 

Fry going to BT would not have really been a big issue. Putting him on the web site and then removing it. Now that stinks

 

Regarding Pinnacle - was there ever any conclusive evidence that they had no real money? Been various references on here, talk of revealing emails,, ambiguous statements from Fry and the FA etc but what has been confirmed - did they ever have a backer, when did he/they pull out etc?

The whole thing smells dodgy as but did we ever find the rotten fish causing the stink?

[alpine_saint]

This article has come straight from the mouth or pen of Rupert Lowe.

 

it is full of resentment and bitterness.

 

However, has to be said their is a clear conflict of interest going on here.

 

Why is nothing simple where we are concerned ?

[ghq]

An alternative view of R Fry's perceived skulduggery is that he rid Saints of millions in debt and more importantly of Rupert and Mike, all for the cost of ten points. Of course, that's if all runs smoothly from hereon in. Just an observation.

[hugh]

This article has come straight from the mouth or pen of Rupert Lowe.

 

it is full of resentment and bitterness.

 

However, has to be said their is a clear conflict of interest going on here.

 

Why is nothing simple where we are concerned ?

 

 

I agree alpine. Sale has a track record of being strangely pro-Lowe, so while I think the article is spot on in pointing out the clear conflict of interest here, I can't help wondering just what the feck Lowe is doing behind the scene.

 

Saints recent history has just been a tangle of political machinations and if the Swiss bid manages to complete, perhaps the most welcome thing to look forward to is a break from all that boswollocks.

[John B]

I think I should be up for an award at the Sports Journo of the year awards!

 

(He says modestly)

 

Don't get much right but I heard this from my City source and it sounded just plain wrong. It was pretty easy for our google kings to track down the hard facts. Hmm maybe the Mail owes this site a donation - c'mon Sale send in your fiver!

 

I said I was very worried at the start of the process, too many things do not seem right, too many strange rumours popping out - remember the cr*p Weston Saint & I got for pointing out a rumour about Pinnacle's bid.

 

These two so far are the only ones I have dug out anything that could have been called corroborative evidence for. This was simple googling, but still needed to have confirmation that it was one and the same Richard Fry, obviously the Mail have done some homework on that photo. The Pinnacle one was non-attributable I'm afraid as it was a business associate but it turned out to be spot on.

 

Others on here have heard one or two other snippets, but absolutely nothing else seems to have any provable substance.

 

Fry going to BT would not have really been a big issue. Putting him on the web site and then removing it. Now that stinks

 

So what

 

If we get a new buyer and a new future great.

[Wopper]

An alternative view of R Fry's perceived skulduggery is that he rid Saints of millions in debt and more importantly of Rupert and Mike, all for the cost of ten points. Of course, that's if all runs smoothly from hereon in. Just an observation.

 

Did us all a favour.

[dubai_phil]

Regarding Pinnacle - was there ever any conclusive evidence that they had no real money? Been various references on here, talk of revealing emails,, ambiguous statements from Fry and the FA etc but what has been confirmed - did they ever have a backer, when did he/they pull out etc?

The whole thing smells dodgy as but did we ever find the rotten fish causing the stink?

 

I have not found any "evidence" unlike Frygate. So all of this is assumption and speculation and allegedlyness

 

What I heard were comments made by people working in M&A's in the City

I also heard a comment from people who by all accounts could be classed as creditors of SLH/SFC.

"That there were concerns about the Pinnacle Bid and whether they would be able to complete"

Both of those were second hand but I also heard a similar story about people discussing their concerns from a family friend who would have had daily access to "people close to the affair".

 

The final comment came from a fourth unrelated source following staff meetings at SMS, which is probably how it then came to be noted onto here on (I think) the Wednesday of their final week.

 

I never posted this until the 3rd week, I refused to simply because nobody in their right mind would want to do anything that could have damaged the "MLT" takeover

When others started to hear similar and posted on here, we got slated for it.

 

Those comments reached me during the second week of their exclusivity.

 

They all had the same theme. Pinnacle had 4 backers, 3 pulled out.

 

The general theme OF THE UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOURS was that the one remaining backer had NOT committed fully to the project but wished to see details of the final Due Dilligence and business plan.

 

The rumours also indicated that MLT was active but NOT on the deal/business side and knew (for example) nothing about the fact that the wages needing paying on the final Friday.

 

So if you look for conspircaies or where a stink may be emanating...

 

Add to this the fact that at no time did Fry or anyone else actually SAY that a 500k deposit had been paid.

 

There were comments that a deposit HAD been paid, but never confirmation of an amount.

 

This gave rise to an opinion from a Southampton based contact that maybe, by teaming up with Crouch, a negotiation to use his (probable) loan early in admin as the deposit.

 

So, the Swiss, "The other overseas consortium", MJ, and the Irish were all being forced to pay 500k non-refundable with (allegedly) a clause giving their lawyers "grave" concern.

 

Then Pinnacle gain exclusivity on what appears a wing and a prayer and possibly without the deposit............ But it was all OK because it was MLT..

 

At no point does any of this shout LOWE, it shouts much else but where could there be ANY benefit to him. I really cannot see he would want to completely destroy the club out of spite (unlike a few on here), he has a need to have a business career, there simply is no way there is any value. he can score his points sniping to the Mail...

 

IMHO the only analysis could I draw is a possible breach of a duty of care or incompetence over the proof of funds for the final bid and the deposit, but as there is no evidence to this in the public domain and anyone with actual factual records will be covered by NDA's, then the whole story will in no doubt stay as "unfounded rumours"

[Ewell]

For those saying 'so what' are you ****ing deluded? It may turn out OK in the end but our football club has been at serious risk of going out of business.

 

Our preparations for any kind of push for the play offs next season have been severely hampered by the fact we are still in administration coming into July.

 

With a month still to go until the big kick off we have players we still need to offload and a squad that is still pretty think on the ground.

 

From where I am standing the fact this Fry forced us into Admin a month or two before we start selling season tickets and before the transfer window opened where we could start offloading some of our players was scandalous then as it is now. The fact he has now turned up as a partner at the administrators totally stinks and should be explained in full by BT.

 

If you think 'so what' then you clearly do not give a **** about the well being and good health of Southampton Football Club!

[Ponty]

Did us all a favour.

Mmm, in the meantime we lose the first IX for peanuts, have no training or management staff under contract and can't even buy a season ticket. Life is good.

[Thedelldays]

Guided Missile tried telling us all for weeks..

 

Even people like me who started to question Pinnacle and the way it all came about was called a "disgrace" etc blah blah

 

I also asked the question about Leons judgement in all this and of course, was called every name unde rthe sun for it...

[saintjay77]

So what

 

If we get a new buyer and a new future great.

 

Bank manager pulls the plug to put us in admin and then joins the team creaming money out of us while we sink and you say so what?

 

There may be absolutly nothing in this and its just a coincedence but the last thing we need now is for the FL to fanny about and ask questions which could drag things out even further. That in turn could jepordise any takeover so we could end up with nothing.

 

Chances are it will get glossed over or sorted out and all will be fine but the club is at twitchy bum time so any bad press related to it would surly cause concern?

[John B]

There may be absolutly nothing in this and its just a coincedence but the last thing we need now is for the FL to fanny about and ask questions which could drag things out even further. That in turn could jepordise any takeover so we could end up with nothing.

 

 

 

Yes I thought of that after I posted it but I dont think SFC has done anything wrong

Edited 7 July, 2009 by John B

[NickG]

agree, want to move on and get away from this over analysis we have had of boardroom, owners, annual accounts and get back to football.

[Thedelldays]

agree, want to move on and get away from this over analysis we have had of boardroom, owners, annual accounts and get back to football.

not really an over analysis is it....

[dubai_phil]

Bank manager pulls the plug to put us in admin and then joins the team creaming money out of us while we sink and you say so what?

 

There may be absolutly nothing in this and its just a coincedence but the last thing we need now is for the FL to fanny about and ask questions which could drag things out even further. That in turn could jepordise any takeover so we could end up with nothing.

 

Chances are it will get glossed over or sorted out and all will be fine but the club is at twitchy bum time so any bad press related to it would surly cause concern?

 

TBH, IF the FL have some concerns, then SFC will not IMHO be affected. They may of course look much more closely at BT and HOPEFULLY the whole Admin process of Football clubs.

 

Again, the amount of fees being earned per day must be in conflict with the need for a speedy resolution. The actual PROCESS involved does have a conflict of interest. The longer it takes the more the administrators earn.

 

Yes obviously it is a very complex process, but if I was the FL (and no doubt FA) I think that ONCE everything is completed it would be very WISE for them to call an official enquiry to see if there are actually any lessons that can be leanrt or new procedures that they could put in place.

 

In admin, the creditors must be protected, that is the law.

 

However, in Football, there are far more stakeholders involved, players contracts are different to standard employment law, and English Civil Law being all about precedents with legislation mixed in means that there may be room for some tweaks for other poor unfortunate clubs and fans who's clubs are driven into the ground by incompetence

[Saint_clark]

Guided Missile tried telling us all for weeks..

 

Even people like me who started to question Pinnacle and the way it all came about was called a "disgrace" etc blah blah

 

I also asked the question about Leons judgement in all this and of course, was called every name unde rthe sun for it...

 

You didn't just question his judgement though did you DD, you said that you wouldn't want him anywhere near the club.

[sotonjoe]

So what

 

If we get a new buyer and a new future great.

 

 

The point is that it is immoral, corrupt and, quite possibly, illegal. Just because somebody benefits from immoral (even criminal?) behaviour, doesn't make it ok!:confused:

[Thedelldays]

You didn't just question his judgement though did you DD, you said that you wouldn't want him anywhere near the club.

to be fair...if things like backing pinnacle and things like this were in front of his face...then you have to wonder..

[Saint_clark]

to be fair...if things like backing pinnacle and things like this were in front of his face...then you have to wonder..

 

Backing Pinnacle I can't argue against, I can only assume he was conned like MLT.

But I Fry was only announced to have joined BT last week? So even if he'd been working with them since the start of admin, Crouch would have had no idea.

[Thedelldays]

Backing Pinnacle I can't argue against, I can only assume he was conned like MLT.

But I Fry was only announced to have joined BT last week? So even if he'd been working with them since the start of admin, Crouch would have had no idea.

you have to be joking right....

[spain saint]

Guided Missile tried telling us all for weeks..

 

Even people like me who started to question Pinnacle and the way it all came about was called a "disgrace" etc blah blah

 

I also asked the question about Leons judgement in all this and of course, was called every name unde rthe sun for it...

 

 

It wasn´t what you were both saying, It was they way that you both put your thoughts across.(GM much more tbf!)

[Saint_clark]

you have to be joking right....

 

How would anyone have known? Unless they dealt with him personally then they can't have.

[Thedelldays]

How would anyone have known? Unless they dealt with him personally then they can't have.

do you not think the situation saints were in that many would have...?

[shurlock]

TBH

In admin, the creditors must be protected, that is the law.

 

However, in Football, there are far more stakeholders involved, players contracts are different to standard employment law, and English Civil Law being all about precedents with legislation mixed in means that there may be room for some tweaks for other poor unfortunate clubs and fans who's clubs are driven into the ground by incompetence

 

Good point, the UK is historically known for having creditor-friendly laws as opposed to debtor-friendly ones (say France, the US). In the business world, that's a choice with specific advantages and disadvantages; but football is different because of the local communities it serves. That community interest is especially important for smaller clubs (which don't rely on worldwide audiences etc), the ones most likely to be hit by administration. The whole question needs to be examined again (if it has been at all).

[rallyboy]

what did Barclays hope to gain from launching administration at that specific time? They risked losing the lot (90% ish).

 

The casual observer could suggest that perhaps the bank manager who made the decision wasn't too concerned about Barclays getting their money back and had other fish to.....er,

grill?

 

From being a simple handover of power, the administration period has turned into an era in its own right.

 

 

 

Let's get the Swiss in and then worry later about delving through what looks from the outside like a proper Fry-up from start to finish.

[Matthew Le God]

"The football club administrator is cheating, a cheat is running the football club!"

 

(for fans of Theme Hospital )

[trousers]

This article has come straight from the mouth or pen of Rupert Lowe.

 

 

Which is why, one assumes, that Sale makes no mention of WH Ireland recommending Begbies Traynor as a 'one to watch' 3 months before Lowe called them in as Administrator.....?

 

Perhaps there wasn't any room left in the column to mention that one is passing....benefit of the doubt and all that....

[Frank's cousin]

Personally I am not qualified to judge an Administrator as to their competence as I know feck all about teh process or these serious financial issues... but my twopenneth worth... I think Di ck 'dastardly' Fry joining BT is a bit of a coincidence really, the fact that they announced it then withdrew it shows a dropped boll ock, and had there been any 'evil skullduggery' such dropped boll ox would never have happened - they are clever these evil masterminds dont forget.

 

With respect to pinnacle and Fry... I think its a bit daft to speculate and insinuate and alledge rumour and gossip that somehow Fry 'favoured' Pinnacle - No one was saying this was wrong when smack bang in teh middle of the exclusivity period and everything looked on track - afterall teh Swiss bid seemed late and an unknown quantity - No we were all champing at the bit to see MLT return.

 

For me its a case of paraphrasing Occam's razor - the simplest or most obvious is usually right and in our case it was a question of timing - Pinnacle was better than Whacko so they got the nod and the Swiss were too late - when the original backers of pinnacle looked at the running costs they would have to support in L1 for more than 1 or 2 years which was likely given the -10 NOT being overturned, they walked away as is their right - Pinnacle were left in a final desperate attempt to get teh FL to overturn the waiver so that the club could appeal the points and thus the backers might rerturn....

 

Meanwhile in a parallel universe Lowe, has gotten into bed with Bachelor and is determined to score some PR points against Fry to try and destablise the Swiss deal so that he can return in disguise.... the world shakes as we stand on the brink of armageddon...or maybe not...

Edited 7 July, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[Badger]

Is this connected with the FF post that was hurriedly removed,and led to him receiving abuse and threat of legal action ?

[saint1977]

Which is why, one assumes, that Sale makes no mention of WH Ireland recommending Begbies Traynor as a 'one to watch' 3 months before Lowe called them in as Administrator.....?

 

Perhaps there wasn't any room left in the column to mention that one is passing....benefit of the doubt and all that....

 

Says it all really where the Mail is concerned. Still, interesting allegations around SFC yet again, what is it that makes our club such a magnet for these political wranglings?

[OldNick]

Surely the fact that we were put into administration at that time was the kick in the guts the club did not need.

We wanted to get a loan of a forward in, and were still very much in contention of staying up. Yes we may still have gone down but as soon as we got the -10 this or last the fight was gone.

That decison potentially cost us our CCC status and the creditors a massive amount of money. It cost the shareholders their stake. IMO it was a very reckless decison at that time.

I think that Richard Fry needs to have a hard look at himself , especially as he was in charge of giving the yes on player signings which untimately made us go into admin.

[NickG]

not really an over analysis is it....

 

the last few years have been!

[stevegrant]

"The football club administrator is cheating, a cheat is running the football club!"

 

(for fans of Theme Hospital )

[stevegrant]

Is this connected with the FF post that was hurriedly removed,and led to him receiving abuse and threat of legal action ?

No - that was centred around the names put forward by Pinnacle.

[angelman]

Quick question: if the club folded, did the administrator stand to make a lot more money?

[alpine_saint]

Personally I am not qualified to judge an Administrator as to their competence as I know feck all about teh process or these serious financial issues... but my twopenneth worth... I think Di ck 'dastardly' Fry joining BT is a bit of a coincidence really, the fact that they announced it then withdrew it shows a dropped boll ock, and had there been any 'evil skullduggery' such dropped boll ox would never have happened - they are clever these evil masterminds dont forget.

 

With respect to pinnacle and Fry... I think its a bit daft to speculate and insinuate and alledge rumour and gossip that somehow Fry 'favoured' Pinnacle - No one was saying this was wrong when smack bang in teh middle of the exclusivity period and everything looked on track - afterall teh Swiss bid seemed late and an unknown quantity - No we were all champing at the bit to see MLT return.

 

For me its a case of paraphrasing Okram's razor - the simplest or most obvious is usually right and in our case it was a question of timing - Pinnacle was better than Whacko so they got the nod and the Swiss were too late - when the original backers of pinnacle looked at the running costs they would have to support in L1 for more than 1 or 2 years which was likely given the -10 NOT being overturned, they walked away as is their right - Pinnacle were left in a final desperate attempt to get teh FL to overturn the waiver so that the club could appeal the points and thus the backers might rerturn....

 

Meanwhile in a parallel universe Lowe, has gotten into bed with Bachelor and is determined to score some PR points against Fry to try and destablise the Swiss deal so that he can return in disguise.... the world shakes as we stand on the brink of armageddon...or maybe not...

 

It's Occam's Razor..

 

HTH

[Frank's cousin]

It's Occam's Razor..

 

HTH

 

Fair Play - just testing - Occam, Okram, Ocrams - same razor though ;-) I have corrected it just for you.

[Saint Paul C]

I agree alpine. Sale has a track record of being strangely pro-Lowe, .

 

IIRC Sale, Lowe and Cowan all attended the same school.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Which is why, one assumes, that Sale makes no mention of WH Ireland recommending Begbies Traynor as a 'one to watch' 3 months before Lowe called them in as Administrator.....?

 

Perhaps there wasn't any room left in the column to mention that one is passing....benefit of the doubt and all that....

 

Come on Trousers in one of the worse recessions in modern history you don't even need to have a bank account to be qualified to predict that companies whose principal business is to administer failed companies may actually have a bit of business coming their way. I would be worried if WH Ireland or any other stockbroker, Analyst or Fund Manager had not made a similar prediction.

[saintjay77]

TBH, IF the FL have some concerns, then SFC will not IMHO be affected. They may of course look much more closely at BT and HOPEFULLY the whole Admin process of Football clubs.

 

Again, the amount of fees being earned per day must be in conflict with the need for a speedy resolution. The actual PROCESS involved does have a conflict of interest. The longer it takes the more the administrators earn.

 

Yes obviously it is a very complex process, but if I was the FL (and no doubt FA) I think that ONCE everything is completed it would be very WISE for them to call an official enquiry to see if there are actually any lessons that can be leanrt or new procedures that they could put in place.

 

In admin, the creditors must be protected, that is the law.

 

However, in Football, there are far more stakeholders involved, players contracts are different to standard employment law, and English Civil Law being all about precedents with legislation mixed in means that there may be room for some tweaks for other poor unfortunate clubs and fans who's clubs are driven into the ground by incompetence

 

I dont think SFC are at fault in any of this (unless the conspiresy theory can stretch as far as Leon asked the bank manager to stitch us then guide administration in a certain direction......joke)

 

But if the league decide in all there wisdom to put a stop on proceedings until they know whats what and who is working for who and everything is above board our potential buyers may get bored and look elsewhere.

 

Sesinble thing will be like you say, investigate the whole process onces things are done and dusted, giving us the best chance of being taken over and moving forward.

[trousers]

I would be worried if WH Ireland or any other stockbroker, Analyst or Fund Manager had not made a similar prediction.

 

Post the links to all the other stockbrokers, analysts and fund managers that have recommended BT and I'll put a sock in it (literally)

[trousers]

Come on Trousers

 

You wouldn't be the first....

[Nineteen Canteen]

IIRC Sale, Lowe and Cowan all attended the same school.

 

Oh no, shock horror. Have a look at the list of Old Etonians or Harrovains, Winchester, Marlborough et al. Networking in the earliest stages of persons career and develops to be rife in the city, politics, law, sales, golf clubs and masonic lodges and so on and so on

 

Life has always been about who you know and not what you know and if it wasn't there wouldn't be all those consultants out there making a mint on advising movers and shakers how to enhance their networking skills.

 

People need to wake up and move on. No conspiracy theories, no advantage being made from our misery just the many aspects of the machinations of business.

 

So what our bank manager moved to BT, the latter identified a need and felt this individual and his contacts and experience could help them develop their business, is that an issue?. Happens all the time in the city although there is usually a period of garden leave between the transfer to protect the intellectual capital of the company losing the employee.

 

Is this the crux of the matter? Trying to unravel all the posts is a minefield in itself but if it is seriously whats the issue?

 

BT headhunt useful employee from another company because they believe that individual can add significant value to their business. Surely this happens everyday in every business throughout the world and if we weren't the company in administration would any of us care? No.

 

Get over it and those allegedly ITK there is no story, no points to score and instead of feeding the rumour investigate the one thing you won't find on Google. Who paid Pinnacle's deposit if at all and what was their motives? If it can be proved Pinnacle didn't pay a deposit then find out why and how this could have been allowed? http://www.google.com, of you go and good luck, and don't come back with more suggestion or theory, just facts.