Cabrone Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 He's served his porridge and as far as the rules go he can play. Getting into arguments about what he did are stepping into an unsolvable moral maze. The system says that he's OK to play so he's OK to play. Change the system if you don't like it. Whether clubs want to employ him is their affair though, if fans feel strongly enough fan power may have an effect - we'll have to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Have any of you taken time out to read his web site - not written by him.....but by his legal team. It's very very interesting.....it appears to me that he might be the victim of a miscarriage of justice. Read it and see what you think.... Was he charged because he was a footballer? Probably in my view. Forgive me if I question the site's impartiality. I have read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Would you let Rolf Harris back on kid's telly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 He's served his porridge and as far as the rules go he can play. Getting into arguments about what he did are stepping into an unsolvable moral maze. The system says that he's OK to play so he's OK to play. Change the system if you don't like it. Whether clubs want to employ him is their affair though, if fans feel strongly enough fan power may have an effect - we'll have to see. The Jessica Ennis-Hill angle is interesting. Do they cut ties with something of a media darling, Olympic gold winner and generally v popular person (rightly so IMO, she's great) to hire back a convicted rapist, that may not even be v good at football anymore? It's becoming an increasingly tough sell. Sponsors, plenty of fans and public figures are strongly opposing a potential move. I'd be quite happy if rules were implemented to prevent people convicted of killing or taping others back into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaford Saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Forgive me if I question the site's impartiality. I have read it. I wondered if anything had been left out on the website that might have made a difference to perception. I don't believe they are allowed to falsify anything at all but I take your point. That he did it is not the issue, the consent is the issue. If as suggested she implored him and this was said in court then it is difficult for me to understand the verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Why is this in The Saints section? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The Jessica Ennis-Hill angle is interesting. Do they cut ties with something of a media darling, Olympic gold winner and generally v popular person (rightly so IMO, she's great) to hire back a convicted rapist, that may not even be v good at football anymore? It's becoming an increasingly tough sell. Sponsors, plenty of fans and public figures are strongly opposing a potential move. I'd be quite happy if rules were implemented to prevent people convicted of killing or taping others back into the game. I think that it wll rip the soul out of the club. I do get the "he's done his time" argument but a football club's standing in its community and its ability to attract sponsors and investment is much more important than giving the guy a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Why is this in The Saints section? I guess it's a "There but for the grace of God go I" scenario and of interest, if that was one of our ex-players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The Jessica Ennis-Hill angle is interesting. Do they cut ties with something of a media darling, Olympic gold winner and generally v popular person (rightly so IMO, she's great) to hire back a convicted rapist, that may not even be v good at football anymore? It's becoming an increasingly tough sell. Sponsors, plenty of fans and public figures are strongly opposing a potential move. I'd be quite happy if rules were implemented to prevent people convicted of killing or taping others back into the game. I really dont think they will do anything until the investigation into his conviction is complete, and then only if that turns up some wrong doing in his guilty verdict. IF that happens, and its a big if of course, a lot of the people getting in a frenzy right now may have to climb down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 He might end up in the Greek league or something. He can still be a footballer but just somewhere else. Very unlikely, at least until his licence period ends, presumably in another 2.5 years. He is out on licence and is restricted in what he can do and where he can go. My view at first on this is that there is that there should be nothing stopping him play, and all this role model stuff is complete rubbish. But a good point was made yesterday, that he expects to work with young players at the club (I assume Sheff Utd have an Academy), and if anything like most clubs would be expected to play his part in community work with youngsters. But how can that be squared with him being on the sex offenders register and really needing to get CRB checked to work with kids. He really cannot fulfil his obligations as a professional footballer under these circumstances. I wonder what would have happened at Saints in 1984 (?) if Steve Moran and/or Mark Wright had been convicted of the same offence after the Norkopping game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-Armstrong Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Please for the love of God, someone change the thread title!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 I wonder what would have happened at Saints in 1984 (?) if Steve Moran and/or Mark Wright had been convicted of the same offence after the Norkopping game? Please forgive my ignorance, this was before I was born. What happened? Or at least, is alleged to have happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 I wonder why Sheffield United are so keen on signing him again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggles31 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Don't know the full ins and outs of the case but I would certainly be upset if he ends up scoring against us in the Quarters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 I wonder what would have happened at Saints in 1984 (?) if had been convicted of the same offence after the Norkopping game? But they weren't. I'd be careful about the information you share on the internet too. Ched EvAns faced a jury, they saw all the evidence and convicted him beyond reasonable doubt. All these little wannabe jurors on here who are lapping up what's been planted in the media without seeing all the evidence make me cringe. Personally I just think he's getting too much air time, full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie May Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Someone reading the Ched Evans website and having their minds changed is as bad as people reading conspiracy theory websites and taking the information as gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie May Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Have any of you taken time out to read his web site - not written by him.....but by his legal team. It's very very interesting.....it appears to me that he might be the victim of a miscarriage of justice. Read it and see what you think.... Was he charged because he was a footballer? Probably in my view. Eugh, the most moronic post I've ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie May Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 hypochondriac's posts give me the creeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Don't know the full ins and outs of the case but I would certainly be upset if he ends up scoring against us in the Quarters. This is non issue for our game. He is a very long way from being fit enough to get a contract, quite apart from anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintru Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 You have to consider what the crime is. So if I am recruiting a person to work with vulnerable people and they have a positive DBS I will look at this and want to know more: How long ago was it? Was it a serious offence, e.g. GBH, rape, death by dangerous driving? Has the perpetrator of the offence acknowledged if he/she was wrong. If there is no acknowledgement then the liklehood is they could do the same thing again. This guy has a combination of serious offence and no apology. Who decides? Well the law is clear on what job sex offenders cannot work in. There is no law on football hence the moral dilemma and hence the debate, I was merely adding my view, which is supported by many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaford Saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Eugh, the most moronic post I've ever read. Why thank you for a detailed response. What an excellent way to build your argument. Hats off to you. If there is something I have missed I am open minded enough to take it on board and change my opinion. Could you elaborate on why you think I am moronic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Why thank you for a detailed response. What an excellent way to build your argument. Hats off to you. If there is something I have missed I am open minded enough to take it on board and change my opinion. Could you elaborate on why you think I am moronic? Taking the website written by his legal team, also with friends and family involved as proof of his innocence is grossly naive at best. Also, it's claimed this has been the source for harassing the victim, and releasing her name into the public domain. It doesn't really scream intelligent or thoughtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggles31 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 This is non issue for our game. He is a very long way from being fit enough to get a contract, quite apart from anything else Well that's good then. Having read a bit the bloke comes across as a total helmet. Sheff Utd not doing themselves any favours either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggles31 Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Also the fact that the Court of Appeal has thrown his appeal out makes you think he is scrapping the barrell just a bit. I would trust the Court of Appeal's judgement over any red top media reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L_O_Z Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Does anyone know why Evans was convicted and not McDonald? From what I've read the woman claimed she got so drunk that she doesn't remember what happened and therefore couldn't give consent to either. So any man who had sex with her raped her. Both Evans and McDonald admitted having sex with her but she doesn't remember it. After she found out they both admitted to having consensual sex with her she accused them both of rape. One is convicted the other is proven innocent and Evans only gets 5 years and is out in 2... I've never heard of anything like that before. Surely the media must be talking nonsense? I personally think footballers are the worst role models out there. Using prostitutes, cheating on wives, cheating with mates wives, cheating with brothers wives, biting over players, headbutting other players, constant diving and trying to get other players booked or sent off, racial slures etc. Not suggesting that any of that is as bad as rape, just saying that footballers in general make terrible role models anyway... I'm not sure convicted rapists should play in televised matches but I don't see why they couldn't play for a football club. Although didn't Mark Wahlberg blind someone when he was younger? Didn't dirty Den from Eastenders serve 10 years for murder? No one told him he couldn't be in Eastenders 4 nights a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Article by a female journo suggesting there are some troubling issues with this conviction. Sets out a bit of detail if anyone wants to read. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11226209/Ched-Evans-Sorry-but-all-rapes-are-not-the-same.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Very unlikely, at least until his licence period ends, presumably in another 2.5 years. He is out on licence and is restricted in what he can do and where he can go. My view at first on this is that there is that there should be nothing stopping him play, and all this role model stuff is complete rubbish. But a good point was made yesterday, that he expects to work with young players at the club (I assume Sheff Utd have an Academy), and if anything like most clubs would be expected to play his part in community work with youngsters. But how can that be squared with him being on the sex offenders register and really needing to get CRB checked to work with kids. He really cannot fulfil his obligations as a professional footballer under these circumstances. I wonder what would have happened at Saints in 1984 (?) if Steve Moran and/or Mark Wright had been convicted of the same offence after the Norkopping game? I'm trying to recall the circumstances of that one, but I don't think it came anywhere near the potential for a criminal prosecution..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 I'm trying to recall the circumstances of that one, but I don't think it came anywhere near the potential for a criminal prosecution..... Think they were arrested but released with no charge after a Swedish girl claimed she had been sexually assaulted by them when we played a UEFA cup game over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Jessica Ennis also looking to remove her name from a stand... http://www.itv.com/news/2014-11-13/jessica-ennis-hill-wants-name-removed-from-sheffield-united-stand-if-club-re-signs-ched-evans/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 I feel sorry for the decent Sheffield United fans who have had the good name of their club dragged through the mire. I like to think it could not have happened here. You only have to look back to 2008 when Nathan Dyer pleaded guilty to taking part in the theft of mobile phones at a night club. He had a light sentence for a comparatively minor offence - just 60 hours community service and a fraction of a week's wages in compensation - but Southampton moved him on as soon as they could. I'm proud to have long supported a club that has high standards, on and off the pitch, regardless of who is in charge. Even if Sheffield United now bow to the inevitable and accept that the high profile role of being a professional footballer is not a suitable job for a convicted rapist the damage to their reputation is already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Does anyone know why Evans was convicted and not McDonald? . The girl went back to the hotel hand in hand with McDonald. Evans invited himself to the hotel, and seemingly to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 (edited) The girl went back to the hotel hand in hand with McDonald. Evans invited himself to the hotel, and seemingly to her. Wouldn’t the judge have advised the jury that going back to the hotel hand-in-hand with the girl did not constitute her giving informed or valid consent to having sex? I’m certainly no legal expert, but, on account of the girl saying she was so intoxicated she doesn’t even remember going to the hotel or subsequent events until she woke up the following morning, doesn’t this case hinge round the following section of the Sexual Offences Act 1956? The Sexual Offences Act 1956 contains no statutory definition of 'consent'. Juries must be told that the word should be given its ordinary meaning, and that there is a difference between 'consent' and 'submission'. Lack of consent may be demonstrated by: Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/ If this is the case, then I, too, struggle to understand how a jury can find one man guilty and another man not, or, put another way, one man innocent and other man not. Edited 14 November, 2014 by Halo Stickman Link added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Wouldn’t the judge have advised the jury that going back to the hotel hand-in-hand with the girl did not constitute her giving informed or valid consent to having sex? I’m certainly no legal expert, but, on account of the girl saying she was so intoxicated she doesn’t even remember going to the hotel or subsequent events until she woke up the following morning, doesn’t this case hinge round the following section of the Sexual Offences Act 1956? If this is the case, then I, too, struggle to understand how a jury can find one man guilty and another man not, or, put another way, one man innocent and other man not. No idea mate. Like the rest of us I haven't read or heard the evidence, or the judges summing up. I suspect both fellas say she consented. McDonald was better placed to cast doubt in the jurors minds by virtue of her merrily going to the hotel with him. In contrast, and as Hatch put it, Evans just turned up and nailed her. Your question was how one was acquitted. Without knowing all the facts or evidence, it seems to me that there is a huge difference between the boys cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingdomCome Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Like the rest of us I haven't read or heard the evidence, or the judges summing up. Speak for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 I wondered if anything had been left out on the website that might have made a difference to perception. I don't believe they are allowed to falsify anything at all but I take your point. That he did it is not the issue, the consent is the issue. If as suggested she implored him and this was said in court then it is difficult for me to understand the verdict. It is not difficult to understand the verdict if the girl was in no fit state to give consent. Taking advantage of someone who is too drunk to know what they are doing is no excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Does anyone know why Evans was convicted and not McDonald? From what I've read the woman claimed she got so drunk that she doesn't remember what happened and therefore couldn't give consent to either. So any man who had sex with her raped her. Both Evans and McDonald admitted having sex with her but she doesn't remember it. After she found out they both admitted to having consensual sex with her she accused them both of rape. One is convicted the other is proven innocent and Evans only gets 5 years and is out in 2... I've never heard of anything like that before. Surely the media must be talking nonsense? I personally think footballers are the worst role models out there. Using prostitutes, cheating on wives, cheating with mates wives, cheating with brothers wives, biting over players, headbutting other players, constant diving and trying to get other players booked or sent off, racial slures etc. Not suggesting that any of that is as bad as rape, just saying that footballers in general make terrible role models anyway... I'm not sure convicted rapists should play in televised matches but I don't see why they couldn't play for a football club. Although didn't Mark Wahlberg blind someone when he was younger? Didn't dirty Den from Eastenders serve 10 years for murder? No one told him he couldn't be in Eastenders 4 nights a week. There was a lot of fuss about Dirty Den getting the job at the time but clearly his crime did not stop him having a successful acting career. As with most things I think financial pressure will force the issue one way or the other. If Sheffield united look to lose more than they gain they could well cut him loose. If so it would be interesting to see who would pick him up. Evans has done himself no favours with his attitude. Whether you think he is guilty of rape or not, he has had sex with someone he just met who was clearly the worse for wear and he has cheated on his loyal girlfriend who has to put up with all this grief - none of which seems to bother him in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2014 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2014 There was a lot of fuss about Dirty Den getting the job at the time but clearly his crime did not stop him having a successful acting career. As with most things I think financial pressure will force the issue one way or the other. If Sheffield united look to lose more than they gain they could well cut him loose. If so it would be interesting to see who would pick him up. Evans has done himself no favours with his attitude. Whether you think he is guilty of rape or not, he has had sex with someone he just met who was clearly the worse for wear and he has cheated on his loyal girlfriend who has to put up with all this grief - none of which seems to bother him in the slightest. you just described about 3000 sailors I know (who are not rapists BTW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 you just described about 3000 sailors I know (who are not rapists BTW) Then thank God they spend a lot of their time at sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 The difference here Batman is that Evans is all over the press and hasn't shown one jot of remorse. Not only that he and his family have vilified the person he was convicted of raping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2014 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Then thank God they spend a lot of their time at sea. many of the girls in plymouth are worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 The difference here Batman is that Evans is all over the press and hasn't shown one jot of remorse. Not only that he and his family have vilified the person he was convicted of raping. I don't know about the vilified bit but again no one seems to be able to answer the remorse bit. If in his mind he is adamant that he didn't rape her, why would he show public remorse about it? He is probably more intent on clearing his name for what in his mind is an injustice. If you were in his situation and felt the way that you felt about it would you show remorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 I don't know about the vilified bit but again no one seems to be able to answer the remorse bit. If in his mind he is adamant that he didn't rape her, why would he show public remorse about it? He is probably more intent on clearing his name for what in his mind is an injustice. If you were in his situation and felt the way that you felt about it would you show remorse? Yes, this. He has been in prison for 2.5 years for something he feels sure he is innocent of. Whether he is right remains to be seen, but why anyone is outraged about his lack of remorse is a mystery to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 The difference here Batman is that Evans is all over the press and hasn't shown one jot of remorse. Not only that he and his family have vilified the person he was convicted of raping. how can he show remorse for something he is adamant he did not do, and even more to the point he is appealing against. If he were to show remorse that just means his appeal collapses. This whole thing about remorse is so misunderstood by so many people who do not understand how the legal system works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 you just described about 3000 sailors I know (who are not rapists BTW) And thousands out on a night out most weekends, abroad on Lads Holidays, Freshers weeks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 how can he show remorse for something he is adamant he did not do, and even more to the point he is appealing against. If he were to show remorse that just means his appeal collapses. This whole thing about remorse is so misunderstood by so many people who do not understand how the legal system works. Of course he could. He could say he was stupid for getting involved with a girl who was drunk. He could say he was sorry for putting his girlfriend through all of this. Don't forget he has admitted to have full sex and oral sex with this person. And I do understand how the legal system works. I work for the CPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 And thousands out on a night out most weekends, abroad on Lads Holidays, Freshers weeks etc. And if they rape people they should expect to end up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 It is not difficult to understand the verdict if the girl was in no fit state to give consent. Taking advantage of someone who is too drunk to know what they are doing is no excuse. But who defines who is "too drunk"? I know people that can seem hammered after only a couple of drinks. And isn't the law a bit lop-sided in many ways on this; If I get really p****d, do something illegal, but can't remember and was so hammered I say I really didn't have a clue what I was doing - that is no defence, I'm still guilty am I not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 I don't know about the vilified bit but again no one seems to be able to answer the remorse bit. If in his mind he is adamant that he didn't rape her, why would he show public remorse about it? He is probably more intent on clearing his name for what in his mind is an injustice. If you were in his situation and felt the way that you felt about it would you show remorse? Yes I would. At the very least would you feel bad about what you had put your girlfriend through? Check out what he and his family have been putting the victim through to. I am surprised he hasn't been done for contempt of court on top of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 Of course he could. He could say he was stupid for getting involved with a girl who was drunk. He could say he was sorry for putting his girlfriend through all of this. Don't forget he has admitted to have full sex and oral sex with this person. And I do understand how the legal system works. I work for the CPS. He has done this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2014 Share Posted 14 November, 2014 But who defines who is "too drunk"? I know people that can seem hammered after only a couple of drinks. And isn't the law a bit lop-sided in many ways on this; If I get really p****d, do something illegal, but can't remember and was so hammered I say I really didn't have a clue what I was doing - that is no defence, I'm still guilty am I not? The law. It says quite clearly under the circumstances in which it is deemed people cannot rationally consent to sex. Are you saying it is all right to sh*g someone who is completely out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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