igsey Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The argument here isn't whether or not it was rape - that's already been decided by a jury of his peers and a judge. The issue is whether or not he should be allowed back into a high-profile job, acting as a role model to children that grow up watching football and admiring footballers. Personally, I don't think he should be allowed back into the professional game - though why you'd want to sign someone that hasn't player for two and a half years is beyond me. Ultimately though, it won't be the moral issue that will decide the matter for Sheffield United, it will be the financial one of their sponsors threatening to terminate their contract. I expect he'll leave, maybe drop down a division, and keep playing for a team more desperate for a striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 This, she met the other fella out, got a cab back with him, shared a romantic pizza, etc etc. Evans just turned up uninvited and nailed her. Something like that anyway. If that were true, shouldn't his mate have been charged as an accessory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Perhaps people can put up a list of jobs that it is acceptable for him to do as it seems the one he has trained for all his life is now out of bounds. Or perhaps people can decide which Crimes mean you're free to carry on in the public eye and which ones aren't. Regardless of what people think about the bloke and the serious nature of his crime he's entitled to carry on with his life now having been punished for his crime. It's easy to be hysterical and demonise people, demanding he spends the rest of his life on the dole but it doesn't matter one jot if the blokes the biggest c*** on earth or not, he's been punished according to the law and is now free to carry on his life. If individual clubs don't want to employ him for moral reasons then that is their decision. If that is morally right or not is another issue but according to the law of the land and the society we live in, which by the way many of you are so to quick to laud as fantastic that it's so equal and free when it suits you, is how it is. You can't have it both ways. Or perhaps we should allow mob rule to apply in this instance? Tough one this del. Lawyers have to declare any convictions or cautions when renewing practising certificates. The mickey mouse club then decide if any wrongdoing gets you kicked out. Its done on a case by case basis and I'm unaware of a list of acceptable crimes as such. In any profession it must be right though that someone in a position of authority, or where they are put on a pedestal, can't be in that position having been convicted of a crime that is so serious it carries a maximum sentence of life. With that, I know of a practising solicitor who went away for a part in an armed robbery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If he genuinely thinks he is innocent why would he show remorse? If it were you would you show remorse if you believed you were innocent? Certainly before all legal avenues have been exhausted. At the very least it was a shabby act against someone who was clearly not in control of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 At the very least it was a shabby act against someone who was clearly not in control of herself. He should also get his friends and family to get that awful website in his name pulled down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 (edited) One thing troubles me about this conviction. I know the girl has no memory of the rape, having said that I personally have experienced people including my wife who had too much to drink, were completely stupid the night before and had no recollection the next day when told about their stupidity. The troubling bit is that there is no corroboration whether it was consensual or rape especially as the alleged victim has no memory of the event. I can't see how the jury could be sure what happened. I think this conviction may yet be found unsafe. It is possible that she did have consensual sex but subsequently went to sleep and then couldn't remember next day. Edited 13 November, 2014 by derry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Evans says she gave consent. I have just looked at his website and from what is says there the girl was very clearly off her face and not in control. Both of them took advantage of someone who was clearly very drunk. His mate was lucky to get off and they were both stupid. Whether her drink was spiked or not, they are both grown men and know when someone is not in control. I believe he posted a video of her walking into the hotel. From his own evidence prior to that she was all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 One thing troubles me about this conviction. I know the girl has no memory of the rape, having said that I personally have experienced people including my wife who had too much to drink, were completely stupid the night before and had no recollection the next day when told about their stupidity. The troubling bit is that there is no corroboration whether it was consensual or rape especially as the alleged victim has no memory of the event. I can't see how the jury could be sure what happened. I think this conviction may yet be found unsafe. She has no memory of the event because she was either very drunk or drugged or both. That being the case how could she give consent if she was not in control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 I think the odds of him playing league football in the UK again are... Evens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 At the very least it was a shabby act against someone who was clearly not in control of herself. Would agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of Luke McCormick at Plymouth. In an ideal world I'd like saints players to be whiter than white in their behaviour. whilst I agree with the sentiment, I often wonder what is "an ideal world?" There are limits which should be tolerated, but IMO...a club employee (player) who is paid many times more than his customers (fans) who pay a lot of money to watch 90 minutes of football twice-a-month... really ought to be aware of his social responsibilities, and guard his behaviour plus the fact that all players are, in some way.. role-models for younger players/fans and the community they live in. At least, that would be the case of someone at SFC ....not sure about attitude at Sheff.Utd..or other clubs?. I'm sure I don't need to name names, but some older fans will recall a number of younger players (in the past) who crossed that line, and were promptly shipped out to pastures new. Few of them changed their habits and their careers, for the most part, ebbed away in the fullness of time. Many years ago...One of my first bosses, (never someone to call a spade a shovel), always warned.....never sh*t on your own doorstep. Wise words that clubs might heed when employing troublemakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The thing is that no one held a gun against Evans' head and made him do this. He made a very bad choice and is now paying the price. Brings back memories of the Steve Moran incident many years ago whilst the Saints were playing abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 We ignorant football fans are hardly in a position to question the outcome of a criminal trial. A jury of 12 people listened to all the evidence and to a summing up by the judge and found Evans guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. According to a case transcript on the web an appeal was heard in 2012 which upheld both the conviction and the 5-year sentence. Not only would I not want to watch rapists playing football, I wouldn't want to mix in a crowd with people who thought it was OK for them to do so. In this case it looks like Sheffield United's sponsors take a similar view so any attempt by the club to protect their investment in a sex offender seems likely to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Tough one this del. Lawyers have to declare any convictions or cautions when renewing practising certificates. The mickey mouse club then decide if any wrongdoing gets you kicked out. Its done on a case by case basis and I'm unaware of a list of acceptable crimes as such. In any profession it must be right though that someone in a position of authority, or where they are put on a pedestal, can't be in that position having been convicted of a crime that is so serious it carries a maximum sentence of life. With that, I know of a practising solicitor who went away for a part in an armed robbery... Er ..was he well-represented in court ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 She has no memory of the event because she was either very drunk or drugged or both. That being the case how could she give consent if she was not in control? Nobody know what state she was in or whether she was capable or incapable of giving her assent. I saw the video clip of her leaving the lobby and coming back in and she wasn't falling around drunk. What happened after I haven't a clue and neither does she. However appalled I am about the standard of behaviour of all the parties I couldn't find him guilty without corroboration. Everything else is assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingdomCome Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Tough one this del. Lawyers have to declare any convictions or cautions when renewing practising certificates. The mickey mouse club then decide if any wrongdoing gets you kicked out. Its done on a case by case basis and I'm unaware of a list of acceptable crimes as such. In any profession it must be right though that someone in a position of authority, or where they are put on a pedestal, can't be in that position having been convicted of a crime that is so serious it carries a maximum sentence of life. With that, I know of a practising solicitor who went away for a part in an armed robbery... Khalid Missouri? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Nobody know what state she was in or whether she was capable or incapable of giving her assent. I saw the video clip of her leaving the lobby and coming back in and she wasn't falling around drunk. What happened after I haven't a clue and neither does she. However appalled I am about the standard of behaviour of all the parties I couldn't find him guilty without corroboration. Everything else is assumption. Its a minefield with hundreds of shades of grey. Alcohol is a dis-inhibitor, if it wasnt for alcohol half of us wouldn't have been born Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 He has come across as an absolute cretin with no remorse, especially considering the additional suffering his victim has gone through. There are certain careers someone convicted of rape would not be allowed to continue. I think the high profile nature of professional football should be included in that. I feel sorry for Nigel Clough being put into a really difficult situation while the Sheffield United board are too gutless/greedy to do the right thing. In fairness mate, there is no conclusive proof that he raped her. She is to drunk to remember, and doesn't remember sex with the other chap (who was not found guilty of rape)... In my book, that is very mirky. If he says he is innocent, then I won't argue against him. He is appealing, as his is right, and if found innocent then a lot of people will have mud on their face. If he remains guilty then for me it makes me question equality in our legal system and the principle of "innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. All that aside, he has been to jail, served his time, and frankly, people's only gripe is that the job he can now do earns him a lot of money.. not that he has a job to go back to. If he was a dustbin man, no one would care and it wouldn't be in the papers. But, because he is a footballer and can earn more than them he should be banned.. Justice and equality for all.. the end. Mob rule and special cases is not a country i want to be a part of, sometimes that works both ways whether you like it or not. Ultimately, if you were innocent, I bet you'd like the right to say that, appeal to that affect, and still have a life after you have served your time... otherwise all crimes would effectively end in a life sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Please can we just not keep saying he has completed his sentence. No, we can't I'm afraid, because he has completed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 She has no memory of the event because she was either very drunk or drugged or both. That being the case how could she give consent if she was not in control? Yet she can walk around perfectly, give out correct change etc and had no drugs in her system the morning after... Your comments are very erroneous frankly. No one knows what happened that night. One guy went down for rape, the other didn't... and the girl can't remember any of it... How you can prove someone guilty with no evidence of foul play and no witnesses i'll never know. She was also heard as being concious after Evans arrived as the receptionist went to the room and overheard them. His appeal will be interesting, although perhaps to politically charged to be given a fair crack of the whip anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingdomCome Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 (edited) total brain fart...post removed Edited 13 November, 2014 by KingdomCome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Or perhaps he'll just turn up at Brammal Lane and play whether they ask him to or not. stifled chuckle, as laughing would be out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 No, we can't I'm afraid, because he has completed it. No he hasn't he has completed half of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Yet she can walk around perfectly, give out correct change etc and had no drugs in her system the morning after... Your comments are very erroneous frankly. No one knows what happened that night. One guy went down for rape, the other didn't... and the girl can't remember any of it... How you can prove someone guilty with no evidence of foul play and no witnesses i'll never know. She was also heard as being concious after Evans arrived as the receptionist went to the room and overheard them. His appeal will be interesting, although perhaps to politically charged to be given a fair crack of the whip anyway. Given the high % of rapes where this is the case, what would be your suggestion Saint86? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Its a minefield with hundreds of shades of grey. Alcohol is a dis-inhibitor, if it wasnt for alcohol half of us wouldn't have been born Exactly that really. Such a hard area of the law to get right or ever really "know" if the verdict is right or not. Loads of people sleep around when very drunk, some remember everything they do, others lose their memory after a few drinks. Such a difficult miefield to get right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Exactly that really. Such a hard area of the law to get right or ever really "know" if the verdict is right or not. Loads of people sleep around when very drunk, some remember everything they do, others lose their memory after a few drinks. Such a difficult miefield to get right. Exactly right and on another note, nice to see those with differing opinions being able to discuss this sensibly without the troglodytes from earlier screaming daily mail headlines all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Rape convictions usually show evidence of force/assault or drugs. At the very least the victim recalls the assault. In this case, none of the above apply. Take issue with any of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Rape convictions usually show evidence of force/assault or drugs. At the very least the victim recalls the assault. In this case, none of the above apply. Take issue with any of that? So if someone was to get the victim blind drunk and then raped them without force, they would go free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintru Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The point I am making here is that convicted rapists should not be allowed to have certain jobs and in my opinion this includes football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The point I am making here is that convicted rapists should not be allowed to have certain jobs and in my opinion this includes football. Who decides what jobs are allowed and which ones aren't? What crimes mean you would be excluded from football and which ones would it be OK to return? Is sexual assault OK? Or death by dangerous driving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If per chance he ends up playing again be it for Sheff Utd or any other club he must know he will get dogs abuse from the stands at away matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 The point I am making here is that convicted rapists should not be allowed to have certain jobs and in my opinion this includes football. Where do you draw the line? Can he play non league? Can he play for Romsey for £50 a week? Can he be a coach, a pundit, a physiotherapist for a football club? The fact of the matter is that regardless of his offence he's been punished for to as the law decided fit and is now able to get on with his life. That's not me being a rapist sympathiser, that's what the society we live in has decided is the right thing to do. What he does for a living should not make a difference unless his conviction prevents him from doing his job in the interests of safety of those that he might come into contact with whilst doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 So if someone was to get the victim blind drunk and then raped them without force, they would go free? But you're over-simplifying the point - how do you prove that someone has got another person "blind drunk" with the purpose of raping them? Going well off the subjuect of Saints here anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If per chance he ends up playing again be it for Sheff Utd or any other club he must know he will get dogs abuse from the stands at away matches. If I were him I'd probably go and play abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 A jury - that is T W E L V E adults - listened to the E V I D E N C E - presented on both sides and concluded that Evans was G U I L T Y - beyond any reasonable doubt. And yet there are a few people posting on here who suggest that because they have read a few headlines, they know better than the Jury. OMG. Even if Sheffield United stop digging the hole they are in, its going to take a lot of effort now to fill it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If I were him I'd probably go and play abroad. Sure other countries will be made up about allowing a convicted rapist into the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If I were him I'd probably go and play abroad. Having obtained the permission of their probation officer, which would be very unlikely to be given. Condition of being released under licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 If I were him I'd probably go and play abroad. He won't be allowed out of the country whilst on licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallBoy Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 First of all I do not justify what Evans did. It suggests a lifestyle that I find abhorrent. However, I have seen little on this thread to suggest that many people actually know the facts of the case. If I could do a link I would but Alison Pearson (yes a female) the Telegraph columnist gives a very good account of what was related in court. It would help if people actually knew the facts rather than the fascile attitude that "rape is rape". There are degrees of almost every crime and mitigating factors. I am not going to venture an opinion on whether Evans should immediately return to football. I do, however, think that we need to avoid knee jerk reactions and understand that few things are black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Nobody know what state she was in or whether she was capable or incapable of giving her assent. I saw the video clip of her leaving the lobby and coming back in and she wasn't falling around drunk. What happened after I haven't a clue and neither does she. However appalled I am about the standard of behaviour of all the parties I couldn't find him guilty without corroboration. Everything else is assumption. I saw that clip too. But have you read the account off CCTV on the Evans website? From that she was clearly in a state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Yet she can walk around perfectly, give out correct change etc and had no drugs in her system the morning after... Your comments are very erroneous frankly. No one knows what happened that night. One guy went down for rape, the other didn't... and the girl can't remember any of it... How you can prove someone guilty with no evidence of foul play and no witnesses i'll never know. She was also heard as being concious after Evans arrived as the receptionist went to the room and overheard them. His appeal will be interesting, although perhaps to politically charged to be given a fair crack of the whip anyway. There is a lot of footage that shows that she wasn't walking around normally. She lost her handbag. There seems plenty of evidence that she wasn't in control. Just because she wasn't unconscious doesn't mean to say she wasn't out of control. Neither of us was in court but clearly there was enough evidence a) for the CPS to bring the case to court and b) for the jury to find Evans guilty of rape. Maybe you think it is okay to stick your d*ck into someone who is off their face and that you have only just met? It sounds like you are hoping he will get off on appeal? Whatever you or I think, it is what the jury think that matters and they believe that the complainant was not capable of giving consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 First of all I do not justify what Evans did. It suggests a lifestyle that I find abhorrent. However, I have seen little on this thread to suggest that many people actually know the facts of the case. If I could do a link I would but Alison Pearson (yes a female) the Telegraph columnist gives a very good account of what was related in court. It would help if people actually knew the facts rather than the fascile attitude that "rape is rape". There are degrees of almost every crime and mitigating factors. I am not going to venture an opinion on whether Evans should immediately return to football. I do, however, think that we need to avoid knee jerk reactions and understand that few things are black and white. This is a very sensible view with which I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellone Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 For a forum that gets so precious about inane football matters it's nice to see some subjects get treated a little more flippantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 A jury - that is T W E L V E adults - listened to the E V I D E N C E - presented on both sides and concluded that Evans was G U I L T Y - beyond any reasonable doubt. And yet there are a few people posting on here who suggest that because they have read a few headlines, they know better than the Jury. OMG. Even if Sheffield United stop digging the hole they are in, its going to take a lot of effort now to fill it in. Quite. Just skimmed through and knew there would be a few saying well was it really rape. Sure the same people are gutted Dapper Laughs has been pulled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 Where do you draw the line? Can he play non league? Can he play for Romsey for £50 a week? Can he be a coach, a pundit, a physiotherapist for a football club? The fact of the matter is that regardless of his offence he's been punished for to as the law decided fit and is now able to get on with his life. That's not me being a rapist sympathiser, that's what the society we live in has decided is the right thing to do. What he does for a living should not make a difference unless his conviction prevents him from doing his job in the interests of safety of those that he might come into contact with whilst doing it. It's difficult, but no one has a right to do any job they want. Especially not in a high profile environment. If it was Chris rather than Ched Evans he wouldn't just stroll back onto the Radio 2 breakfast show and The One Show. Any high profile football club has got the right to not offer him employment. If fans, campaigners and (possibly more importantly) sponsors make it difficult for him to get work in this country, so be it. He might end up in the Greek league or something. He can still be a footballer but just somewhere else. I think Jessica Ennis has made a very clever move. Hopefully will make the SUFC board see some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 So basically "don't be good at anything" then? I really don't know who decided footballers are role models, but could they stop assuming that means they're going to be behaviourally appropriate in every situation? A disturbing level of dedication to a specific cause is not always a positive characteristic, whether it's superfit athlete or driven business person. Taking the positives from one situation (footballing ability) and applying them to a completely different set of circumstances (social behaviour) is frankly a little bit stupid. And, no, I'm not suggesting that people can't be good at both, I'm saying that the idea of "role model" needs to come with a large set of qualifiers and caveats - and maybe a bit of common sense. It's not rocket science, being a professional footballer makes you a role model because it's so high profile. Kids have their pictures on their wall, follow them around for autographs and want to be like them because they are seen as cool. They are heros. What sort of message does it send out to kids - He raped someone but he's still great because he can kick a ball around a field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 How would anyone feel if it was their daughter that this pond-life took advantage of. I would want to break his legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwbu Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 I have my own views on the case in discussion but they are not important. What is really important is that Luke McCormick and Lee Hughes have both been allowed to play professional football despite having killed people through driving whilst drunk, and Marlon King (ironically last attached to Sheffield United) despite serving multiple prison sentences for various offences (sexual assault included). Football set a precedent with these 3 cases before Ched Evans. Regardless of your opinion on this one I don't see how anyone could justify Ched Evans being refused the chance to resume his career, when there are convicted killer's playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaford Saint Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 How would anyone feel if it was their daughter that this pond-life took advantage of. I would want to break his legs. Have any of you taken time out to read his web site - not written by him.....but by his legal team. It's very very interesting.....it appears to me that he might be the victim of a miscarriage of justice. Read it and see what you think.... Was he charged because he was a footballer? Probably in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 November, 2014 Share Posted 13 November, 2014 (edited) So basically "don't be good at anything" then? I really don't know who decided footballers are role models, but could they stop assuming that means they're going to be behaviourally appropriate in every situation? A disturbing level of dedication to a specific cause is not always a positive characteristic, whether it's superfit athlete or driven business person. Taking the positives from one situation (footballing ability) and applying them to a completely different set of circumstances (social behaviour) is frankly a little bit stupid. And, no, I'm not suggesting that people can't be good at both, I'm saying that the idea of "role model" needs to come with a large set of qualifiers and caveats - and maybe a bit of common sense. "You can have all the trappings of a professional football career as long as you don't rape anyone" sounds like "a bit of common sense" to me, mate. Edited 13 November, 2014 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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