Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[badgerx16]

I have always followed that an Englishman's word is his bond and that is how is should stay.

 

But what about the Scots ?

[aintforever]

I don't think anybody expects there is a chance of a second referendum on the original question. This debate had to be held because of the petition but nevertheless there are some interesting points in there. The real debate is now over what sort of situation we shall find ourselves in. If we don't repeal any laws then we shall not have left the EU, except in name only. The battleground now is over how much say Parliament and the devolved Assemblies will have in the ultimate deal.

 

It's no big drama, just keep the laws and regs as they are and change them as and when we see fit. It will take a long time but that's not a problem.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It's no big drama, just keep the laws and regs as they are and change them as and when we see fit. It will take a long time but that's not a problem.

 

Exactly . When The Czechs split from the Slovaks they just adopted the same laws they had previously and then changed them democratically as they saw fit over time .

 

Anyway , aren't the people arguing about the complexity of this & the length of time it will take , the same people who were telling us that only a tiny fraction of our laws and regulations came from Brussels?

[Whitey Grandad]

Exactly . When The Czechs split from the Slovaks they just adopted the same laws they had previously and then changed them democratically as they saw fit over time .

 

Anyway , aren't the people arguing about the complexity of this & the length of time it will take , the same people who were telling us that only a tiny fraction of our laws and regulations came from Brussels?

 

And they were right. The laws that we are talking about are all UK laws and will still be in effect after we exit. The vast majority relate to the Single Market but Britain has gold plated many of them Repealing or changing any of these laws is entirely feasible but will clog up Parliament for the next decade or three.

 

http://www.freshbusinessthinking.com/what-is-the-true-extent-of-gold-plating-of-eu-law/

[badgerx16]

A Repealing or changing any of these laws is entirely feasible but will clog up Parliament for the next decade or three.

That should stop them needlessly interfering with the NHS and Education.

[buctootim]

That should stop them needlessly interfering with the NHS and Education.

 

Exactly my thoughts. Every time a new minister is appointed they want to change something so they can leave their mark - a legacy. Most of of them are clueless about their departments having never worked in the field before and just disrupt services. Let them pi ss around with permitted bacterial counts in cheese for 10 years.

[Johnny Bognor]

So Corbyn thinks we should come out of the Single Market. ..

 

Damn. Now I am thinking we should ditch brexit..

[benjii]

European Regulations have direct effect. They don't need UK implementing legislation. If we leave the EU those Regulations will cease to be UK law unless parliament passes an Act to replicate them.

 

Directives do not have direct legal effect and require implementing legislation. That legislation will remain law after Brexit unless repealed.

 

So, "do nothing" does not equal "status quo".

 

Parliament could perhaps pass an Act that takes a blanket approach of rendering all EU Regulations automatically applicable in the UK but is that really something that would get passed? Parliament would have to vote to pass the Act, which would effectively be a direct rebuttal of the referendum result, even if only intended as a temporary measure. It's just kicking the problem into the long-grass.

 

As others have said, it's going to be a bugger to sort!

[hutch]

European Regulations have direct effect. They don't need UK implementing legislation. If we leave the EU those Regulations will cease to be UK law unless parliament passes an Act to replicate them.

 

Directives do not have direct legal effect and require implementing legislation. That legislation will remain law after Brexit unless repealed.

 

So, "do nothing" does not equal "status quo".

 

Parliament could perhaps pass an Act that takes a blanket approach of rendering all EU Regulations automatically applicable in the UK but is that really something that would get passed? Parliament would have to vote to pass the Act, which would effectively be a direct rebuttal of the referendum result, even if only intended as a temporary measure. It's just kicking the problem into the long-grass.

 

As others have said, it's going to be a bugger to sort!

So after we leave, any business that wants to continue trading with the EU single market will have to make it's own decision to keep following those directives on a voluntary basis, and those that don't won't.

 

Damn, that's gonna be a real bugger.

[Verbal]

Uh-oh. The Brexiteers are losing their nerve. Arron Banks, the hardliner who bankrolled the ukippy version of the Leave campaign (your mensch, Tender), is now saying we should go for the 'Norway' option. That option, remember, is the one that has membership of the single market - with membership costs but no say - plus freedom of labour movement with the tiniest of tweaks.

 

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/773885526680231936

 

This is happening just as opinion against a 'good' deal for Britain, like the Norway option, is hardening in the EU. Here's a fascinating take on that by a leading EU negotiator for Brexit - saying that Brexit offers a brilliant opportunity to kick a nuisance country out, with maximum prejudice, and harmonise more strongly those that remain. Brexiteers will feel their knees jerking at this, and will instantly respond that this is precisely the reason we're getting out. But remainers - more intelligent and rounded human beings - will recognise it for what it is: a growing determination to make an example of Britain, cherry-pick and export the best bits (like financial services) to Germany, France, etc., and to leave the UK behind as an isolated, tariff-laden backwater, forced to do deals hugely against its interests with countries like the US and China.

 

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/769950772561928192

[Goatboy]

Why has Guy Verhofstadt stolen Merkel's hair?

[Wade Garrett]

Uh-oh. The Brexiteers are losing their nerve. Arron Banks, the hardliner who bankrolled the ukippy version of the Leave campaign (your mensch, Tender), is now saying we should go for the 'Norway' option. That option, remember, is the one that has membership of the single market - with membership costs but no say - plus freedom of labour movement with the tiniest of tweaks.

 

 

This is happening just as opinion against a 'good' deal for Britain, like the Norway option, is hardening in the EU. Here's a fascinating take on that by a leading EU negotiator for Brexit - saying that Brexit offers a brilliant opportunity to kick a nuisance country out, with maximum prejudice, and harmonise more strongly those that remain. Brexiteers will feel their knees jerking at this, and will instantly respond that this is precisely the reason we're getting out. But remainers - more intelligent and rounded human beings - will recognise it for what it is: a growing determination to make an example of Britain, cherry-pick and export the best bits (like financial services) to Germany, France, etc., and to leave the UK behind as an isolated, tariff-laden backwater, forced to do deals hugely against its interests with countries like the US and China.

 

 

A deluded post by another of the metropolitan elite.

[Johnny Bognor]

...

Edited 8 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor
was generally being a ****

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Uh-oh. The Brexiteers are losing their nerve. Arron Banks, the hardliner who bankrolled the ukippy version of the Leave campaign (your mensch, Tender), is now saying we should go for the 'Norway' option. That option, remember, is the one that has membership of the single market - with membership costs but no say - plus freedom of labour movement with the tiniest of tweaks.

 

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/773885526680231936

 

This is happening just as opinion against a 'good' deal for Britain, like the Norway option, is hardening in the EU. Here's a fascinating take on that by a leading EU negotiator for Brexit - saying that Brexit offers a brilliant opportunity to kick a nuisance country out, with maximum prejudice, and harmonise more strongly those that remain. Brexiteers will feel their knees jerking at this, and will instantly respond that this is precisely the reason we're getting out. But remainers - more intelligent and rounded human beings - will recognise it for what it is: a growing determination to make an example of Britain, cherry-pick and export the best bits (like financial services) to Germany, France, etc., and to leave the UK behind as an isolated, tariff-laden backwater, forced to do deals hugely against its interests with countries like the US and China.

 

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/769950772561928192

 

Verbal part of the problem for the 'remainers' is that they genuinely believe that they are more intelligent and rounded human beings.

 

It seems that the remedy being put forward by another highly paid, unelected bureaucrat is a more rigid, less flexible and undemocratic Europe. Who will be in this new hard core of Euro Super state? Germany, France, Belgium and all those countries who are so skint that they have no choice.

[Verbal]

Verbal part of the problem for the 'remainers' is that they genuinely believe that they are more intelligent and rounded human beings.

 

Intelligent and well-rounded human beings would address the points made in my post, rather than - as here - solidly proving my hypothesis about Brexiteers. So you humans have no view at all on Banks saying he wants Norway with all the freedom of movement that entails? Interesting. You have no view about what the 'other side' are increasingly saying?

 

I wonder if you have a view about what the Japanese are saying? After all, companies, like Nomura, Toyota, Nissan, Honda and Softbank are kind of a big deal. And the Japanese government is not exactly pulling its punches about what they're all going to do, which is what they've always done: plant themselves in a convenient place inside the EU's single market.

 

That's the thing about Brexiteers though - they are solipsists, with no conception of what the opponents of their position in Europe and elsewhere can do to them. The world isn't waiting to say: 'yes, of course' to every pleading from May et al. That, I would have thought, is what's behind Banks' capitulation.

[Johnny Bognor]

Verbal part of the problem for the 'remainers' is that they genuinely believe that they are more intelligent and rounded human beings.

 

It seems that the remedy being put forward by another highly paid, unelected bureaucrat is a more rigid, less flexible and undemocratic Europe. Who will be in this new hard core of Euro Super state? Germany, France, Belgium and all those countries who are so skint that they have no choice.

 

When the EU isnt working, the answer is more EU.

 

Watching that video shows that there needs to be a shift in power away from democratically elected governments to an autocratic super state in order for Europe to work.

 

The EU has lots of form on ignoring the will of the people from circumventing countries' constitutions to ignoring the yellow card played by countries to place a break on new legislation (yet remainers seem to delude themselves that we have a say)

 

This is about a struggle between the power of the people and the power of the state.

Edited 8 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Lord Duckhunter]

God imagine getting stuck in a pub with Verbal, he's nearly as boring as Paddy Ashdown

[moonraker]

[quote=Johnny Bognor;2396841t

 

This is about a struggle between the power of the people and the power of the state.

 

What a complete load of cr*p, this has been the biggest lie of Brexit, but it has seemingly convinced a large portion of the British public, sadly I am coming to the conclusion that a significant number of them really are stupid. Yes I am insulting you and all who believe the in Dreamland of Brexit, yes I am angry, and yes I will continue to argue for what I sincerely believe is in the best interest of the U.K. staying in the EU.

[moonraker]

God imagine getting stuck in a pub with Verbal, he's nearly as boring as Paddy Ashdown

 

I love you, every post is condescending, you must be a very famous person who has achieved world acclaimed status! So who are you, one of the Khardashians?

[Lord Duckhunter]

I love you, every post is condescending, you must be a very famous person who has achieved world acclaimed status! So who are you, one of the Khardashians?

 

Is that your idea of world acclaimed status and fame, The Khardashians?

[Johnny Bognor]

What a complete load of cr*p, this has been the biggest lie of Brexit, but it has seemingly convinced a large portion of the British public, sadly I am coming to the conclusion that a significant number of them really are stupid. Yes I am insulting you and all who believe the in Dreamland of Brexit, yes I am angry, and yes I will continue to argue for what I sincerely believe is in the best interest of the U.K. staying in the EU.

I think you need to educate yourself.

 

Find out about how changing what was a constitution to a treaty meant that the EU could bypass the will of the French, Dutch and Irish.

 

When you've finished that assignment, your next project is to find out about the yellow card, how it has been played twice and how the EU chose to ignore it (against their own rules) the second time.

 

Finally, when you've done that, maybe you will see why some senior EU politicians hold the UK in such contempt, especially the ***** in verbal's video. The reaction by some of them post referendum is quite frankly disgusting. It's their way or the high way

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[aintforever]

What a complete load of cr*p, this has been the biggest lie of Brexit, but it has seemingly convinced a large portion of the British public, sadly I am coming to the conclusion that a significant number of them really are stupid. Yes I am insulting you and all who believe the in Dreamland of Brexit, yes I am angry, and yes I will continue to argue for what I sincerely believe is in the best interest of the U.K. staying in the EU.

 

You can't be that clever yourself if you have only just come to the conclusion that a significant number of the British public are stupid.

 

The Sun is the biggest selling newspaper, 9 million watch X Factor every week - and it took you this long for your little brain to work that out.

[Verbal]

Finally, when you've done that, maybe you will see why some senior EU politicians hold the UK in such contempt, especially the ***** in verbal's video. The reaction by some of them post referendum is quite frankly disgusting. It's their way or the high way

 

And yet still you miss my point. It isn't that there are federalist fundamentalists mouthing off about kicking Britain out. These people - like Juncker and Verhofstadt - are politicians from Benelux countries that have always been richly rewarded by EU membership. The point is, the fundamentalists - also including Michel Barnier, the negotiator for the Commission - are in all the controlling positions for negotiating Brexit. The German pragmatists are nowhere. This means there will be the strongest push by the EU to inflict maximum damage to the UK during Brexit negotiations and beyond. Brexiteer fantasies about German car makers not allowing this to happen are just that - hopeless fantasies.

 

Senior politicians like Hammond recognise this, which is why he made a firm commitment yesterday to exempt bankers from free movement restrictions. Now other sectors are asking what's so special about bankers - and why can't they have the same deal. He's done this because of the predatory noises coming out from the federalists, that they want to destroy London as the financial centre of Europe.

 

You might think: so what? Well, the taxman and provincials unable to withstand the heat of metropolitan life depend on London for revenues. Hammond knows that a damaged service sector in London is a damaged UK. (As a comparison, New York keeps 50% of tax revenues raised in the city, and Tokyo 70%. London by contrast retains just 7% of tax revenues generated within the city; the rest goes to you lovelies).

 

Now, as has been proved countless times, London itself has a boundless talent for making money, and it'll be fine, although not necessarily fine from banking revenues. The rest of the country, on the other hand, will catch a nasty backlash. As the government inevitably fades out farm subsidies after 2020, as well as regional development grants (measured now in billions), and as London demands it should keep a greater proportion of its tax revenues to pay for the infrastructure to enable it to compete post-Brexit, you in hand-out heaven are going to be in serious trouble.

 

So you Brexiteers might want to actually have some plans to hand to deal with this - or are you going to go on as you have, blindly bulldozering on with no hint of an idea about how Brexit can happen in the real world?

[Johnny Bognor]

And yet still you miss my point. It isn't that there are federalist fundamentalists mouthing off about kicking Britain out. These people - like Juncker and Verhofstadt - are politicians from Benelux countries that have always been richly rewarded by EU membership. The point is, the fundamentalists - also including Michel Barnier, the negotiator for the Commission - are in all the controlling positions for negotiating Brexit. The German pragmatists are nowhere. This means there will be the strongest push by the EU to inflict maximum damage to the UK during Brexit negotiations and beyond. Brexiteer fantasies about German car makers not allowing this to happen are just that - hopeless fantasies.

 

I don’t disagree with this sentiment at all and in fact think you have called this one correctly. But the fact that they wish to impose maximum damage on a sovereign nation state exercising democracy, because it doesn’t fit with their agenda, is good enough reason to leave the EU IMO. This dictatorial approach will only lead to trouble further down the line (Maybe the plans for the EU army being discussed this weekend will result in an eventual civil war).

 

The balance of trade deficit fell by £1billion last month helped by a boost in exports of £800m and a £300m reduction in car imports. A few months like this and you may start to see those with a real democratic mandate (i.e the German politicians), come to the fore.

There is growing anti-EU sentiment across Europe and if the elected national politicians don’t listen and bring the eurocrats under control, there will be trouble ahead. Just look at Germany’s elections this week. A far right party only established 3 years ago, smashed Merkel’s party into 3^rd place. The Germans are going to have to step up to the plate.

 

Back to trade, the worst case scenario is that we default to WTO rules. Average tariffs are 10%. Our currency is already 12% cheaper than it was pre-referendum. So any tariffs from the EU have already been negated. Add the fact that we would be able to place 10% tariffs on the EU, means that there would be more money in the pot over and above our saving in membership fees. I’m not saying this is ideal and would prefer free market access overall (which is the main plus point for being in the EU), but it doesn’t look like we are going to get it if the eurocrat’s maintain their stance…

[buctootim]

Back to trade, the worst case scenario is that we default to WTO rules. Average tariffs are 10%. Our currency is already 12% cheaper than it was pre-referendum. So any tariffs from the EU have already been negated. Add the fact that we would be able to place 10% tariffs on the EU, means that there would be more money in the pot over and above our saving in membership fees. I’m not saying this is ideal and would prefer free market access overall (which is the main plus point for being in the EU), but it doesn’t look like we are going to get it if the eurocrat’s maintain their stance…

 

Lol. Seriously? Corbyn has a better grasp of economics. You think the car manufacturers are going to say "Sure we'll pay 10% tariffs on our imported parts and pay another 10% tariff when we export the cars again, because the money will go to the Treasury and that will make us feel warm". There will be people killed in the industry's stampede for the (Br)exit. You should have read the links you've been given before

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37272163

http://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-KPMG-EU-Report.pdf

[buctootim]

The UK’s current proposals for a post-Brexit agreement with the European Union are “completely unrealistic,” as Britain must grant access to workers, contribute to the bloc’s budget and submit to legislative oversight to keep single-market access, the top Czech negotiator said. A lack of understanding by at least some UK ministers over how the union works and unwillingness to believe what they’re being told by their civil servants is contributing to contradictory statements from London, Tomas Prouza, state secretary for EU affairs in Prague, said

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-brexit-goals-completely-unrealistic-czech-envoy-says-republic-tomas-prouza-a7232006.html

[moonraker]

You can't be that clever yourself if you have only just come to the conclusion that a significant number of the British public are stupid.

 

The Sun is the biggest selling newspaper, 9 million watch X Factor every week - and it took you this long for your little brain to work that out.

 

I was being polite. It's obvious that that a significant number are stupid, it has just been P C to pretend otherwise. Indeed Nigel Fartarse and his acolytes have built their political careers on the stupidty of a section of the electorate. What is really sad is he and others on the extreme right and left of politics have created in our tolerant and proud nation a division that will not heal for a generation or more.

[saint1977]

Has anyone seen Liam Fox's staggering comments on UK industry? Wow. That's on a par with some of the deluded crap Corbyn and Smith have been coming out with in the Labour leadership campaign. The theory that May was using some of the figures on the Tory far right supporting Brexit to politically hang themselves before things get serious is looking apt.

 

What the **** does Liam Fox know about business? Michael Heseltine, one of my favourite politicians, had it correct: the Tory right think they know the theory of business but know nothing of the practicalities and most if not all have any experience. Those on the centre of the party tend to have more experience. Boris for all of his faults at least knows he's a novice on this aspect and even he won't try and lecture others on commercial experience.

 

Do we want Liam Fox anywhere near Brexit negotiations?

[CB Fry]

Has anyone seen Liam Fox's staggering comments on UK industry? Wow. That's on a par with some of the deluded crap Corbyn and Smith have been coming out with in the Labour leadership campaign. The theory that May was using some of the figures on the Tory far right supporting Brexit to politically hang themselves before things get serious is looking apt.

 

What the **** does Liam Fox know about business? Michael Heseltine, one of my favourite politicians, had it correct: the Tory right think they know the theory of business but know nothing of the practicalities and most if not all have any experience. Those on the centre of the party tend to have more experience. Boris for all of his faults at least knows he's a novice on this aspect and even he won't try and lecture others on commercial experience.

 

Do we want Liam Fox anywhere near Brexit negotiations?

Kind of destroys the old argument that it is the Remain side talking the country down doesn't it?

 

Liam Fox has been deliciously put down by various people through the course of the day who have, you know, actually had a real job.

[aintforever]

I was being polite. It's obvious that that a significant number are stupid, it has just been P C to pretend otherwise. Indeed Nigel Fartarse and his acolytes have built their political careers on the stupidty of a section of the electorate. What is really sad is he and others on the extreme right and left of politics have created in our tolerant and proud nation a division that will not heal for a generation or more.

 

No, Farage has just exploited a division created by the Westminster elite who refused to listen to the concerns of the public over immigration. The same people are still refusing to listen, coming up with all sorts of bull**** to try and explain the result.

 

To be absolutely honest I'm not bothered if we are in or out. I can see both sides of the argument. The reason I favoured leave was because of the point blank refusal of the people we elected to admit the problems that people face every day because of immigration. People being labelled as racist by ******s from London for speaking out about real issues.

 

Keep calling Brexit voters stupid if you like, it just highlights your own ignorance though.

[moonraker]

No, Farage has just exploited a division created by the Westminster elite who refused to listen to the concerns of the public over immigration. The same people are still refusing to listen, coming up with all sorts of bull**** to try and explain the result.

 

To be absolutely honest I'm not bothered if we are in or out. I can see both sides of the argument. The reason I favoured leave was because of the point blank refusal of the people we elected to admit the problems that people face every day because of immigration. People being labelled as racist by ******s from London for speaking out about real issues.

 

Keep calling Brexit voters stupid if you like, it just highlights your own ignorance though.

Don't be stupid! How will Brexit change immigration? And whilst people may have concerns the vast majority are ill conceived and fuelled by the right wing press and right wing politicians. It is not ignorance I suffer from unlike those who seek to use immigration for their own ends.

[Wes Tender]

Don't be stupid! How will Brexit change immigration?

 

It really is so simple, that a person of your self-assumed intelligence really ought to have twigged it. Brexit will allow us to regain control of our immigration policies, instead of being forced to accept uncontrolled immigration from any other member state of the EU. The "take back control" slogan which was so effective in the campaign doesn't seem to have registered with you. How we go about it is now up to us, unless May backslides over the future trade arrangements with the EU and concedes the free movement of people as a condition of it, but that would be totally against the spirit of the support for Brexit and would cause continual division within the party and in the Country.

[buctootim]

It really is so simple, that a person of your self-assumed intelligence really ought to have twigged it. Brexit will allow us to regain control of our immigration policies, instead of being forced to accept uncontrolled immigration from any other member state of the EU. The "take back control" slogan which was so effective in the campaign doesn't seem to have registered with you. How we go about it is now up to us, unless May backslides over the future trade arrangements with the EU and concedes the free movement of people as a condition of it, but that would be totally against the spirit of the support for Brexit and would cause continual division within the party and in the Country.

 

We get back control f'sure. Unless the bleeding obvious happens.

[Johnny Bognor]

Free movement of people vs free movement of labour... there is some room for manoeuvre

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[buctootim]

Free movement of people vs free movement of labour... there is some room for manoeuvre

 

I think its going to be smoke and mirrors fudge. Britain will introduce a system of work permits for EU citizens so we get back control (yay! whoop!) but anyone who wants one can get one so its all meaningless.

[aintforever]

I think its going to be smoke and mirrors fudge. Britain will introduce a system of work permits for EU citizens so we get back control (yay! whoop!) but anyone who wants one can get one so its all meaningless.

 

I'm happy with a system that means anyone from the EU is free to work here as long as they have an offer of permanent full-time employment, earning decent a living wage.

 

There's a difference between moving somewhere because of a job and just turning up somewhere with your family in the hope of picking some cabbages. Knowing that if there is no jobs you still you get a house, benefit payments plus free access to schools, hospitals etc.

Edited 11 September, 2016 by aintforever

[Wes Tender]

We get back control f'sure. Unless the bleeding obvious happens.

 

Nothing is bleeding obvious. Most thought it bleeding obvious that Remain would win the referendum, that Corbyn would not win the Labour leadership contest, that Johnson would be the next PM, etc. What might happen is so bleeding obvious that in a later post, you express only an opinion of what you think might develop.

[buctootim]

There's a difference between moving somewhere because of a job and just turning up somewhere with your family in the hope of picking some cabbages. Knowing that if there is no jobs you still you get a house, benefit payments plus free access to schools, hospitals etc.

 

Do many do that? Is it a real problem? Serious question - I don't know. I suspect the Express have to look pretty hard to find some. You then have to think 'are the numbers of people coming here to live and not working greater than the Brits going to France and Spain? Almost certainly not.

Edited 11 September, 2016 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Nothing is bleeding obvious. Most thought it bleeding obvious that Remain would win the referendum, that Corbyn would not win the Labour leadership contest, that Johnson would be the next PM, etc. What might happen is so bleeding obvious that in a later post, you express only an opinion of what you think might develop.

 

I'm basing my opinion on all the evidence that free movement of labour is a non negotiable for the EU - proven by existing deals with Norway, Switzerland & Iceland and by the fact that various senior figures in the EU have said Britain wont be excepted. You are basing it on a hope. They are qualitatively different.

[moonraker]

It really is so simple, that a person of your self-assumed intelligence really ought to have twigged it. Brexit will allow us to regain control of our immigration policies, instead of being forced to accept uncontrolled immigration from any other member state of the EU. The "take back control" slogan which was so effective in the campaign doesn't seem to have registered with you. How we go about it is now up to us, unless May backslides over the future trade arrangements with the EU and concedes the free movement of people as a condition of it, but that would be totally against the spirit of the support for Brexit and would cause continual division within the party and in the Country.

 

You are correct in principle but completely wrong in practice. As has been fully recognised over half immigration has nothing to do with the EU and therefore we already had control. Leaving the E U may allow us some ability to restrict EU citizens entering the country but at what cost, having control does not in itself lead to a better outcome, especially with the likes of Fox leading the way.

[Whitey Grandad]

You are correct in principle but completely wrong in practice. As has been fully recognised over half immigration has nothing to do with the EU and therefore we already had control. Leaving the E U may allow us some ability to restrict EU citizens entering the country but at what cost, having control does not in itself lead to a better outcome, especially with the likes of Fox leading the way.

We can keep repeating this until our faces turn blue. No matter what the public or the politicians want the Home Office refuse to do anything about controlling immigration.

[Wes Tender]

I'm basing my opinion on all the evidence that free movement of labour is a non negotiable for the EU - proven by existing deals with Norway, Switzerland & Iceland and by the fact that various senior figures in the EU have said Britain wont be excepted. You are basing it on a hope. They are qualitatively different.

 

I am not basing it on a hope; I am basing it on an expectation. I fully expect that we will likewise refuse to countenance free movement of peoples as a condition of membership of the single market. You have consistently parroted your mantra that we will opt for the Norway or Switzerland option, but I don't think we will. We'll just have to wait and see, but as I already indicated, if we accept some fudge that doesn't allow us to control our borders, there will be a very heavy price for the Government to pay politically.

[Wes Tender]

You are correct in principle but completely wrong in practice. As has been fully recognised over half immigration has nothing to do with the EU and therefore we already had control. Leaving the E U may allow us some ability to restrict EU citizens entering the country but at what cost, having control does not in itself lead to a better outcome, especially with the likes of Fox leading the way.

 

What a ridiculous stance to take. Yes, we have some control over the half of our immigration that comes through the rest of the World, but almost no control whatsoever over the immigration from other member states of the EU. We are handicapped massively on any form of selective immigration, because we have no idea how many immigrants will come into the UK from the EU. I understand that immigration from Romania and Bulgaria topped 200,000 last year and had we voted to remain, even if Turkey is not allowed to join, then Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia could mean substantial immigration increases from those countries too. Where there is high youth unemployment in a country and they could earn several times more per hour than in their own countries, even on our minimum wage and then often have it topped up with benefits, it's a bit of a no-brainer where they are going to go.

 

How do you justify the rather weird position that having control over something does not in itself lead to a better outcome? I presume that logically in your mind, it would be better not to have any control? At least if we have Government control and things go awry, the electorate have powers to give them a good kicking at the ballot box, something that cannot be administered to the Eurocrat Bureaucrats.

[badgerx16]

, but as I already indicated, if we accept some fudge that doesn't allow us to control our borders, there will be a very heavy price for the Government to pay politically.

 

They are politicians, they exist by moulding lies into half truths and using spin to convince the public that black is white, aided by their Fleet Street chums.

[ecuk268]

How do you justify the rather weird position that having control over something does not in itself lead to a better outcome? I presume that logically in your mind, it would be better not to have any control? At least if we have Government control and things go awry, the electorate have powers to give them a good kicking at the ballot box, something that cannot be administered to the Eurocrat Bureaucrats.

 

If they had been so concerned about immigration, why have the non-EU figures been around the 250000 mark each year since the early 90's?

 

That's where we do have control yet they've done nothing to reduce it.

[moonraker]

What a ridiculous stance to take. Yes, we have some control over the half of our immigration that comes through the rest of the World, but almost no control whatsoever over the immigration from other member states of the EU. We are handicapped massively on any form of selective immigration, because we have no idea how many immigrants will come into the UK from the EU. I understand that immigration from Romania and Bulgaria topped 200,000 last year and had we voted to remain, even if Turkey is not allowed to join, then Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia could mean substantial immigration increases from those countries too. Where there is high youth unemployment in a country and they could earn several times more per hour than in their own countries, even on our minimum wage and then often have it topped up with benefits, it's a bit of a no-brainer where they are going to go.

 

How do you justify the rather weird position that having control over something does not in itself lead to a better outcome? I presume that logically in your mind, it would be better not to have any control? At least if we have Government control and things go awry, the electorate have powers to give them a good kicking at the ballot box, something that cannot be administered to the Eurocrat Bureaucrats.

Simple question are you willing to scarifice unfettered access to the biggest developed market in the world on the basis of perceived yes perceived accession to the EU of countries mentioned? And why mention Turkey, as has been firmly established they ain't joining at any time in the next 30 years, neither have you addressed the issue of non EU immigration, and how do square the claim that according to many in your camp Brexit was not about immigration.

Edited 11 September, 2016 by moonraker

[Wes Tender]

They are politicians, they exist by moulding lies into half truths and using spin to convince the public that black is white, aided by their Fleet Street chums.

 

I largely share your cynicism on most matters political, but the public didn't accept the moulding of lies or half truths or spin presented to them by the remain campaign during the referendum. Perhaps they are not as gullible as the London elite like to believe them to be.

[Whitey Grandad]

I largely share your cynicism on most matters political, but the public didn't accept the moulding of lies or half truths or spin presented to them by the remain campaign during the referendum. Perhaps they are not as gullible as the London elite like to believe them to be.

 

Lies, half-truths and spin? This is another of the Brexit myths. You keep repeating them often enough in the hope that people will accept them as facts. The only fact that matters is that we are in a complete clusterfup and nobody, least of all any the Brexiteers, has the slightest clue as to where or how we move on from now.

[Wes Tender]

Simple question are you willing to scarifice unfettered access to the biggest developed market in the world on the basis of perceived yes perceived accession to the EU of countries mentioned? And why mention Turkey, as has been firmly established they ain't joining at any time in the next 30 years, neither have you addressed the issue of non EU immigration, and how do square the claim that according to many in your camp Brexit was not about immigration.

 

I didn't say that I was willing to sacrifice unfettered access to the single market just because of the perceived accession of the countries mentioned. If you read carefully, I said that we had no control at all over the numbers coming in from the EU, that the situation had worsened considerably with Romania and Bulgaria's accession and that no doubt it would be much worse again if the other states were allowed to join.

 

But to answer the question about "unfettered" access, then of course it isn't unfettered at all, is it? You surely ought to realise that it comes at the price of uncontrolled movement of peoples, payment of a hefty membership fee, loss of sovereignty and subjugation of our legal system. Yes, I would certainly be willing to have access to the single market from outside of it, in return for the control over all of those other matters and I suspect that goes for most of those who voted to leave the EU too.

 

Brexit was different things for different people, as you ought to realise. But immigration was probably the main issue. If you think back to the campaign, I'm pretty sure that when speakers for Brexit talked about taking back control, control of our borders was usually the first thing they listed among several.

[Verbal]

Lies, half-truths and spin? This is another of the Brexit myths. You keep repeating them often enough in the hope that people will accept them as facts. The only fact that matters is that we are in a complete clusterfup and nobody, least of all any the Brexiteers, has the slightest clue as to where or how we move on from now.

 

Quite. Not not the slightest clue. The utter brain-dribbling idiocy of 'hard' Brexiteers is astonishing. We should probably keep articles like this away from them.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/this-is-what-would-actually-happen-if-we-implemented-the-brexit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html