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Puel out

Lastman73

By Lastman73,
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SKD

SKD

Posted
Posted
We screwed up in the Europa League because we conceded when we absolutely had to not do so. We then scored almost immediately. Scoring wasn't even needed, not conceding was.

 

We set up to draw, at home, against a side from a Pub league.

 

We also failed to score in any of our away games. Pretty poor effort.

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The9

The9

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Posted
We set up to draw, at home, against a side from a Pub league.

 

We also failed to score in any of our away games.

 

Which of the teams are you referring to?

 

Tell me about it, I was at all of them.

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SKD

SKD

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Posted
Which of the teams are you referring to?

 

Tell me about it, I was at all of them.

 

The final game, when we only needed not to concede. The tactics that day were awful, and for me, pretty much summed up most of this season. Full, lifeless and lack of effort.

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The9

The9

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Posted (edited)
The final game, when we only needed not to concede. The tactics that day were awful, and for me, pretty much summed up most of this season. Full, lifeless and lack of effort.

 

Oh right, against the team that beat Inter home and away. Well, it was clear throughout the Europa campaign that we were playing within ourselves out of necessity and basically attempted to finish one goal better than the side in third. Unfortunately we ended up being one goal worse than the team in second.

 

By the time we played that Beer Sheva home game we were into our third week in a row of playing weekend/midweek (Sat Liverpool H, Thu Sparta A, Sun Everton H, Wed Arsenal A, Sat Palace A, Thu Beer Sheva H) and with another two weeks of that to go (Sun Boro H, Wed Stoke A, Sun Bournemouth A) it was hardly surprising we tried to play within ourselves and get through by doing as little as possible.

 

I tend not to challenge the decisions on player recovery, given that the facts are proven and clearly known, and the club has all the data on player condition which the fans don't.

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

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Doing as little as possible in one of our most important games in many years is simply not acceptable.

 

So whose to blame for that? Fatigue again?

 

Clearly answered that in the post above, yes. We played Sat-Thu-Sun-Wed-Sat-then Beer Sheva home on the Thursday. Funnily enough the Palace away game immediately before it was the match where Saints players ran less than any other team in any other Premier League game in the entire season. Feel free to try to make the point that "they should have been fresh for the Thursday then", but clearly they were already knackered by then from the cumulative effort.

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SKD

SKD

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Clearly answered that in the post above, yes. We played Sat-Thu-Sun-Wed-Sat-then Beer Sheva home on the Thursday. Funnily enough the Palace away game immediately before it was the match where Saints players ran less than any other team in any other Premier League game in the entire season. Feel free to try to make the point that "they should have been fresh for the Thursday then", but clearly they were already knackered by then from the cumulative effort.

 

We practically had a different team for the EL & PL. only Forster, VVD and Romeu (correct me if I'm wrong) played consecutively. So to be frank, I don't buy the fatigue nonsense.

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The9

The9

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We practically had a different team for the EL & PL. only Forster, VVD and Romeu (correct me if I'm wrong) played consecutively. So to be frank, I don't buy the fatigue nonsense.

 

This was the team that lost to Palace:

1 (G) F Forster

2 (D) C Soares

6 (D) J Fonte

17 (D) V van Dijk

21 (D) R Bertrand

14 (M) O Romeu

16 (M) J Ward-Prowse

19 (M) S Boufal (76)

22 (M) N Redmond

23 (M) P Hojbjerg (59)

10 (F) C Austin (76)

 

This was the team which drew home to Beer Sheva:

F Forster (G) 1

C Soares (D) 2

M Yoshida (D) 3

V van Dijk (D) 17

R Bertrand (D) 21

S Davis (M) 8

O Romeu (M) 14

N Redmond (M) 22

(82) P Hojbjerg (M) 23

(59) J Sims (M) 39

(39) C Austin (F) 10

 

I've highlighted the THREE changes in bold. Clearly having eight players who'd started the previous game doesn't tally with your recollection.

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James

James

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We practically had a different team for the EL & PL. only Forster, VVD and Romeu (correct me if I'm wrong) played consecutively. So to be frank, I don't buy the fatigue nonsense.

 

Funny how other PL clubs manage it as well (let's not pretend that Arsenal, City etc. change every single player between a mid week European game and a PL game at the weekend, in fact I'd be willing to bet they, on average, change fewer players than we did between our Europa and PL games).

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SKD

SKD

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This was the team that lost to Palace:

1 (G) F Forster

2 (D) C Soares

6 (D) J Fonte

17 (D) V van Dijk

21 (D) R Bertrand

14 (M) O Romeu

16 (M) J Ward-Prowse

19 (M) S Boufal (76)

22 (M) N Redmond

23 (M) P Hojbjerg (59)

10 (F) C Austin (76)

 

This was the team which drew home to Beer Sheva:

F Forster (G) 1

C Soares (D) 2

M Yoshida (D) 3

V van Dijk (D) 17

R Bertrand (D) 21

S Davis (M) 8

O Romeu (M) 14

N Redmond (M) 22

(82) P Hojbjerg (M) 23

(59) J Sims (M) 39

(39) C Austin (F) 10

 

I've highlighted the THREE changes in bold. Clearly having eight players who'd started the previous game doesn't tally with your recollection.

 

Fair enough, thought it was more than that. Who out of them that started against beer Sheba started the Thursday before? Was it Prague?

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
Funny how other PL clubs manage it as well (let's not pretend that Arsenal, City etc. change every single player between a mid week European game and a PL game at the weekend, in fact I'd be willing to bet they, on average, change fewer players than we did between our Europa and PL games).

 

There are a few things here:

1) Saints rotating the squad means calling on clearly second-choice players, many of the top 6's reserves are better than most starters for the rest of the division. Rotation for them doesn't mean noticably weakening the team the way it does when Saints pick (say) Martina.

2) Two of this season's top 6 weren't in Europe at all and didn't have any issues as a result. There's a clear correlation between Liverpool's League position in European and non-European seasons over the past 3 years.

3) All but Spurs and Man U played fewer games than Saints last season.

4) Football is a meritocracy - Top 6 players are fundamentally better than our players, they cost more money, they get paid more because most of the time they are better. They therefore have to do less to get better results to begin with. That's evident in Saints' finishing stats this season.

5) Look at Leicester's league performance when in Europe compared to the previous season. Obviously any Leicester season is going to look bad, but they had stuck to a first XI as far as possible the previous season and they couldn't do that this season.

6) One of the reasons we beat Arsenal in the EFL Cup was that our squad players were clearly more familiar with their teammates than Arsenal's weakened first team plus some kids they'd never played alongside before.

 

Also, feel free to track down the stats on rotation to support your point.

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

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Posted (edited)
Fair enough, thought it was more than that. Who out of them that started against beer Sheba started the Thursday before? Was it Prague?

 

It was the Wednesday before, EFL Cup away to Arsenal:

 

1 (G) F Forster

3 (D) M Yoshida

15 (D) C Martina

17 (D) V van Dijk

21 (D) R Bertrand

4 (M) J Clasie

8 (M) S Davis

18 (M) H Reed (65)

19 (M) S Boufal (66)

38 (M) S McQueen

7 (F) S Long

 

As you'd expect, we used the squad a bit more for that one, 7 changes from that game to the following one at Palace but probably still stronger than you'd expect.

 

Still there were 4 starters for both the Arsenal and Palace games, and Forster, Van Dijk and Bertrand played all 3 games. The win at Arsenal was an absolute triumph for our squad rotation, as we still looked like a team even with those changes, whilst Arsenal switched a few reserve players in and looked completely disjointed.

 

I've only covered off the starters here, some of the subs played too. Austin went off against Beer Sheva in the first half injured having played the game before (another reason to rotate players, especially those susceptible to injury when they DON'T have fatigue) but at least Long was fresh...

 

Of course to get a firm grasp on the "patterns" for the whole run I'd have to go back a further three matches (two weeks) and three matches (two weeks) after too. Which underlines the scheduling problem facing Puel.

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

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These are pampered footballers who get the best food , travel, science, coaches and facilities.

The poor souls having to play a game of football every 3 days the poor loves.

 

You understand that they're playing against other people with the same privileges? And that we're talking about needing to be at peak performance to compete or being disadvantaged before the match even starts?

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SuperSAINT

SuperSAINT

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Claude Puel in negotiations with Southampton over a compensation fee for the eventual termination of his contract, according to @ManuLonjon.

 

 

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

 

Certainly matches up with him saying "non" to Saint Etienne FC.

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Katalinic

Katalinic

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Posted
I don't blame Puel for wanting to do so. If we want to get rid of him, we need to pay up. Simple.

 

Ultimately it appears that every party wants the same thing, so it will probably end in a deal being done and a mutual consent statement being issued.

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Give it to Ron

Give it to Ron

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Posted
You understand that they're playing against other people with the same privileges? And that we're talking about needing to be at peak performance to compete or being disadvantaged before the match even starts?

You have made every excuse under the sun . Do Hapoel and Prague have same facilities of course not, it was plain and simple poor tactics.

You can dress it up all you like but this backroom staff and Puel at home never knew what to change or how to get the best out of the players he had.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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The9

The9

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You have made every excuse under the sun . Do Hapoel and Prague have same facilities of course not, it was plain and simple poor tactics.

You can dress it up all you like but this backroom staff and Puel at home never knew what to change or how to get the best out of the players he had.

 

Actually I've just said "it's down to the schedule and player fatigue". There is a ton of evidence proving this is a significant factor. No amount of facilities can magically make players untired, especially with the cumulative effects of doing that for months on end. Well, blood doping can apparently but I'm hoping we're not involved in that one.

 

The tactics were driven by the need to manage the number of games the team was playing. This was a factor from August to the start of February, and from April to the end of the season. The two months we didn't have back to back games we only played 4 fixtures, all away from St Mary's, scoring 4 twice and narrowly losing to Man U and Spurs.

 

It's really not hard to see that Puel's options were hugely limited, and personally I feel that we managed it very well and but for a couple of bounces could have won a Cup and got ourselves to the Europa knockouts. Finishing above 8th with all that going on as well and the way the fixtures fell (plus Everton's investment) was a difficult ask.

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mikee

mikee

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Actually I've just said "it's down to the schedule and player fatigue". There is a ton of evidence proving this is a significant factor. No amount of facilities can magically make players untired, especially with the cumulative effects of doing that for months on end. Well, blood doping can apparently but I'm hoping we're not involved in that one.

 

The tactics were driven by the need to manage the number of games the team was playing. This was a factor from August to the start of February, and from April to the end of the season. The two months we didn't have back to back games we only played 4 fixtures, all away from St Mary's, scoring 4 twice and narrowly losing to Man U and Spurs.

 

It's really not hard to see that Puel's options were hugely limited, and personally I feel that we managed it very well and but for a couple of bounces could have won a Cup and got ourselves to the Europa knockouts. Finishing above 8th with all that going on as well and the way the fixtures fell (plus Everton's investment) was a difficult ask.

 

Do you think we would have had this problem if Poch was still in charge - because I don't. He would have ensured that the players are fit enough to do their jobs, twice a week if necessary.

 

Puel did not get the team fit and instead gave the players a ready made excuse by saying they couldn't possibly play 2 games a week. The players have been allowed to get lazy - which is the reason we have not seen any real pressing this season.

 

Puel then proceeded to play a deliberately weakened side game after game. By the time we were out of all competitions, the players couldn't even manage 1 game a week!

 

The first job of a manager is to get the best out of the team at his disposal and Puel has failed miserably at this and deserves to be sacked as a result.

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SFKA South Woodford

SFKA South Woodford

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Posted

The most important question to ask the 'Puel in' crowd is, can you honestly say that you saw any improvement in the playing style or tactics in the last three months of the season to offer any optimism that Puel & his coaches learnt anything or attempted to be more expansive & brave in the team's play?

 

For those last three months the team didn't have the fixture congestion to deal with (which is according to you guys, Puels excuse for everything) and yet there was no improvement in the team's style & quite the opposite occurred, we saw the team play even more pitifully especially against the big team's.

That is not who Saints are historically, when a big team appears in our sights we attack, take the fight to them & knock them out of their stride. Under Puel though, we knew who are betters were & 'doffed' our cap in deference to them, letting them walk away with points without having to break sweat!

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SFKA South Woodford

SFKA South Woodford

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The most important question to ask the 'Puel in' crowd is, can you honestly say that you saw any improvement in the playing style or tactics in the last three months of the season to offer any optimism that Puel & his coaches learnt anything or attempted to be more expansive & brave in the team's play?

 

I know I didn't!

 

For those last three months the team didn't have the fixture congestion to deal with (which is according to you guys, Puels excuse for everything) and yet there was no improvement in the team's style & quite the opposite occurred, we saw the team play even more pitifully, especially against the big team's.

That is not who Saints are historically, when a big team appears in our sights we attack, take the fight to them & knock them out of their stride. Under Puel though, we knew who our betters were & 'doffed' our cap in deference to them, letting them walk away with points without having to break sweat!

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charliemiller

charliemiller

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Posted
The most important question to ask the 'Puel in' crowd is, can you honestly say that you saw any improvement in the playing style or tactics in the last three months of the season to offer any optimism that Puel & his coaches learnt anything or attempted to be more expansive & brave in the team's play?

 

For those last three months the team didn't have the fixture congestion to deal with (which is according to you guys, Puels excuse for everything) and yet there was no improvement in the team's style & quite the opposite occurred, we saw the team play even more pitifully especially against the big team's.

That is not who Saints are historically, when a big team appears in our sights we attack, take the fight to them & knock them out of their stride. Under Puel though, we knew who are betters were & 'doffed' our cap in deference to them, letting them walk away with points without having to break sweat!

 

This ....very well put

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Fitzhugh Fella

Fitzhugh Fella

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Posted

I think the "should he stay should he go" debate to be a bit superfluous now. He's going of that I am sure. Only time will tell if we made the right decision and much will depend on our powers of persuasion in terms of recruiting a replacement.

This is when Les Reed earns his money.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

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Posted

"Southampton’s position with regard to their manager, Claude Puel, remains delicate and strange, given that he has all but left the club and they are actively pursuing a successor to him. Yet they will not confirm his departure until they have lined up the new man, who would have to represent an upgrade."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/06/southampton-to-report-liverpool-to-premier-league-over-virgil-van-dijk-approach

 

( apologies if already posted ).

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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

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Posted (edited)
Has he gone yet?

 

Gone where ?

He obviously ain't going without a pay off and we're in all probability trying to not give him one. So unless he finds a job he rates and thinks better than ours he'll be staying put until we give him the order of the boot.

Although...could be some develpments soon as the only really decent job left at the moment, Porto, has gone to the portuguese bloke who was at Nantes. Perhaps Puel fancied Porto, don't know if he was really a serious candidate there though.

Edited by Window Cleaner
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OttawaSaint

OttawaSaint

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Posted
Gone where ?

He obviously ain't going without a pay off and we're in all probability trying to not give him one. So unless he finds a job he rates and thinks better than ours he'll be staying put until we give him the order of the boot.

Although...could be some develpments soon as the only really decent job left at the moment, Porto, has gone to the portuguese bloke who was at Nantes. Perhaps Puel fancied Porto, don't know if he was really a serious candidate there though.

 

I dunno where! The forum experts said he'd be gone by now.

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