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Heisenberg

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Was taking a look at the squad earlier and its frightening how saturated we now are with very middle of the road players - assuming VVD is sold in the summer, we will have arguably a worse squad than we did under Adkins (2013)

 

We have genuinely ran out of players to sell (to the top 6 sides) and we just look fully bloated with unexceptional players.

 

What’s gone wrong with our famous recruitment process - the magic black box? We have one of the most expensive squads in Europe but full of totally bang average premier league players.

 

GKs

Forster

McCarthy

Taylor

 

Defenders

Van Dijk

Gardos

Yoshida

Pied

McQueen

Stephens

Bertrand

Targett

Soares

Martina

 

Midfielders

Clasie

Romeu

Ward-Prowse

Höjbjerg

Davis

Reed

Isgrove

 

Forwards

Boufal

Sims

Tadic

Redmond

Rodríguez

Austin

Long

Edited by Heisenberg
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Was taking a look at the squad earlier and its frightening how saturated we now are with very middle of the road players - assuming VVD is sold in the summer, we will have arguably a worse squad than we did under Adkins (2013)

 

We have genuinely ran out of players to sell (to the top 6 sides) and we just look fully bloated with unexceptional players.

 

What’s gone wrong with our famous recruitment process - the magic black box? We have one of the most expensive squads in Europe but full of totally bang average premier league players.

 

GKs

Forster

McCarthy

Taylor

 

Defenders

Van Dijk

Fonte

Gardos

Yoshida

Pied

McQueen

Stephens

Bertrand

Targett

Soares

Martina

 

Midfielders

Clasie

Romeu

Ward-Prowse

Höjbjerg

Davis

Reed

Isgrove

 

Forwards

Boufal

Sims

Tadic

Redmond

Rodríguez

Austin

Long

 

Least we should finish around midtable.

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It is worrying; the last few seasons we have managed to replace the players we've sold with equal replacements. That hasn't happened this summer. Take out Austin from that list and it really is no surprise we are where we are in the league.

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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We have some fantastic players in that list. VVD aside, Bertrand, Cedric, Romeu, Boufal and Davis are all far from unexceptional and we have some very exciting young talent in Sims, Hojbjerg, McQueen and Reed (recently).

 

I'm still struggling to understand the Charlie Austin love in that seems to be happening. Yes he's scored 9 goals but 4 of them were penalties and I'm yet to watch a match where he's been the best player on the pitch. I'd go as far as saying that at Palace Away he was embarrassing. Even if he was fit I'd still pick Jay over him.

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Can anyone else see us midtable? I can't, unless we get at least a couple of new players in and good ones at that.

 

What is wrong with being midtable

 

We have midtable players a midtable stadium and midtable revenues

 

Just think we are a midtable club

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If we don't start scoring goals, you can say goodbye to a mid-table finish. Especially when other teams have sussed that you only have to get a shot on target against us to have a 50% chance of scoring a goal. We might me able to squeak a few 0-0 points, but we will need to do that in every match until the end of the season to have a chance of staying up. So to all the happy clappers I say Get Real! We have serious problems that don't appear to be being addressed.

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What is wrong with being midtable

 

We have midtable players a midtable stadium and midtable revenues

 

Just think we are a midtable club

 

I think beowulf is suggesting that if we don't add some quality in this window we will not attain mid-table, we will be battling the bottom third.

 

I'm pretty sure just about everyone would take a mid-table finish right now.

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Redmond and Boufal will both be £30m+ players after a season or two. Then we've got Cedric, VVD, Romeu and Bertrand who have all easily increased in value since we signed them.

 

We've got a very good squad with players who are just underperforming right now. Considering the only differences are Pellè (who people slated relentlessly), Mané (who was still anonymous until March last year) and Wanyama (who got similar stick for being "lazy" and not bothered), it's hard to argue our squad is that much weaker.

 

One of the "Most expensive squads in Europe". We're 16th. Sunderland are 19th and they haven't even had to replace players. http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-united-second-most-expensive-9608758

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We have one of the most expensive squads in Europe but full of totally bang average premier league players.

 

Every Premier League squad is one of the most expensive squads in Europe. It's all relative, isn't it? If all the squads in your league have plenty of money to go around, it doesn't really work in your advantage to also be kinda rich.

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Even if we can replace the quality players sold to Liverpool, Spurs etc, with players as good or better, they too will be sold within a season or two. Thus there is no chance of developing a team capable of challenging the supremacy of the top six. Our business plan is buy cheep, sell high and hope the fan base aren't bothered by never winning anything as long as we stay in the Premiership. Bit depressing really.

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Our business plan is buy cheep, sell high and hope the fan base aren't bothered by never winning anything as long as we stay in the Premiership. Bit depressing really.
You will be stoned to death by the radicals on here for daring to say that. Dont forget it is preached that we are punching above our weight and should never expect to actually win things, the glory is to tell the world our club used to have the players who pick up the medals at other clubs
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Even if we can replace the quality players sold to Liverpool, Spurs etc, with players as good or better, they too will be sold within a season or two. Thus there is no chance of developing a team capable of challenging the supremacy of the top six. Our business plan is buy cheep, sell high and hope the fan base aren't bothered by never winning anything as long as we stay in the Premiership. Bit depressing really.

 

Nothing wrong with this argument, but on the flip side our business model could be "find a good player, refuse to sell them, make them get unhappy and refuse to play or run their contract down, lose them eventually for a lot less money, while at the same time find it harder to attract players in the first place because they don't see the career progress".

 

The way that our business model can eventually achieve success is to replace every departing excellent player with at least two 'very good' ones, particularly younger players that all improve at a similar rate, so that in time we end up having an entire team of very good players, peppered with one or two excellent ones, who can then be persuaded to stay because we are challenging the top group of clubs.

 

Unfortunately, we haven't reinvested all of our transfer fees into new players, never mind dipping into TV money etc. We have replaced players on a slightly higher ratio than 1-to-1, but not enough for insurance against one or two of those signings not coming off. Unless we somehow hit the jackpot by unearthing a player who is even better than the one he replaced, as with van Dijk, the model seems destined for failure, and we do indeed end up with the scenario you've described. The frustrating thing is that it didn't have to be this way, and most fans could see that in the summer.

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We have some fantastic players in that list. VVD aside, Bertrand, Cedric, Romeu, Boufal and Davis are all far from unexceptional and we have some very exciting young talent in Sims, Hojbjerg, McQueen and Reed (recently).

 

I'm still struggling to understand the Charlie Austin love in that seems to be happening. Yes he's scored 9 goals but 4 of them were penalties and I'm yet to watch a match where he's been the best player on the pitch. I'd go as far as saying that at Palace Away he was embarrassing. Even if he was fit I'd still pick Jay over him.

 

I agree with your first paragraph but re Charlie - we are not paying him to be the best player on the pitch - we are paying him to score goals. This he does/ did more successfully than our other strikers and it matters not a jot if they are penalties.

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I think Redmond will be a top player as well. I recall the hilarity when people said the same about Mane on here and were laughed at

There were tons of people who were saying from the beginning that mane looked superb. Almost no one has said that about redmond because he is poor the majority of the time.

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GKs

Forster - lower prem to champ

McCarthy - lower prem

Taylor - unknown

Defenders

Van Dijk - prem

Fonte - lower prem

Gardos - champ

Yoshida - lower prem

Pied - unknown

McQueen - lower prem

Stephens - champ

Bertrand - prem

Targett - lower prem

Soares - prem

Martina - lower prem

 

Midfielders

Clasie - lower prem

Romeu - prem

Ward-Prowse - champ

Höjbjerg - champ

Davis - prem

Reed - lower prem

Isgrove - champ

 

Forwards

Boufal - prem

Sims - lower prem

Tadic - prem

Redmond - champ

Rodríguez - champ

Austin - champ

Long - champ

 

Above is my view of the level of this squad right now - it's pretty average with some notable exceptions. We've done two things over the last 3 seasons - watered down the quality and watered down the team spirit (i.e. sold or alienated most of the squad that achieved back to back promotions). Add to this a manager who appears to not be inspirational to the squad, a deputy who has previously struggled to find any level of success, both of whom are working a system that does not suit the squad of players at their disposal. The decline will continue unfortunately I suspect unless one or more of these issues is corrected. Add to this the atmosphere at SMS is likely to get worse, meaning the '12th man' effect could diminish. Many I know are disillusioned with the style of play, lack of ambition shown by the Board etc. Overall, it is easy to see how our size club could get sucked into a spiral of decline that leads to relegation - it's happened before and it could happen again.

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I agree with your first paragraph but re Charlie - we are not paying him to be the best player on the pitch - we are paying him to score goals. This he does/ did more successfully than our other strikers and it matters not a jot if they are penalties.

 

It's an interesting point about the penalties and one that plenty of people disagree on. Personally I don't think penalties should be included in a goal count when judging a players return for the season mainly because there are 10 other players on the pitch who could take it instead with a similar chance. Yes some players take penalties better than others but I bet even I could stick it in the net more often than not. Whereas a goal from open play is a usually down to a players skill and vision.

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I think Redmond will be a top player as well. I recall the hilarity when people said the same about Mane on here and were laughed at

 

I would've thought people might have learned not to hyperbolically slate a player during their first few months at the club. Redmond's eclipsed Mané's first (and the last) half-season contribution already.

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Regarding pens - really ?, are you confident when Tadic steps up to take one then ? - we had a very worrying period post Lambert when our pen taking was frankly poor, Austin has solved that so it's a definate bonus and counts. SFC think you have been quite kind with a few of those, and harsh on a few others - I'd go based on this season..

GKs

Forster - lower prem

McCarthy - championship

Taylor - Div 1 (from recent career)

Defenders

Van Dijk - Top prem

Fonte - Mid prem

Gardos - champ

Yoshida - lower prem

Pied - unknown

McQueen - lower prem

Stephens - champ

Bertrand - top prem

Targett - championship

Soares - mid prem

Martina - championship

 

Midfielders

Clasie - lower prem

Romeu - mid prem

Ward-Prowse - champ

Höjbjerg - champ

Davis - mid prem

Reed - champ

Isgrove - div 1

 

Forwards

Boufal - lower prem

Sims - championship

Tadic - lower prem

Redmond - lower prem

Rodríguez - champ

Austin - mid prem

Long - champ

 

That said I think there is potential for the following to rise above their current rankings: Redmond, Hojberg, McQueen, Sims, Soares, McCarthy, J-Rod, Forster

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Don't think this is massive problem tbh. This summer we can easily sell VVD for say £40m, and tho clubs won't be beating down the door for anyone else, I reckon we could still sell Bertrand and Long for a combined £12m or something like that. Overall, £52m, which is not bad business.

 

Who to sell the following summer (2018) looks a bit bleak at the moment, but we've still got time. I can see potential in the likes of Hojberg, Boufal, Seesaws etc, and it may also be that Sims or JWP or Redmond surprise one or two on here, and earn a move. I'm sure Les has spoken to Puel about this, and he's doing his best. I'm pretty confident that amongst the existing squad, we can find enough players to sell in 2018.

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Even if we can replace the quality players sold to Liverpool, Spurs etc, with players as good or better, they too will be sold within a season or two. Thus there is no chance of developing a team capable of challenging the supremacy of the top six. Our business plan is buy cheep, sell high and hope the fan base aren't bothered by never winning anything as long as we stay in the Premiership. Bit depressing really.

 

very. Maybe winning the league cup will cheer us up...;-)

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Don't think this is massive problem tbh. This summer we can easily sell VVD for say £40m, and tho clubs won't be beating down the door for anyone else, I reckon we could still sell Bertrand and Long for a combined £12m or something like that. Overall, £52m, which is not bad business.

 

Who to sell the following summer (2018) looks a bit bleak at the moment, but we've still got time. I can see potential in the likes of Hojberg, Boufal, Seesaws etc, and it may also be that Sims or JWP or Redmond surprise one or two on here, and earn a move. I'm sure Les has spoken to Puel about this, and he's doing his best. I'm pretty confident that amongst the existing squad, we can find enough players to sell in 2018.

 

do we need to start thinking about a pyramid selling type structure?

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I find myself agreeing with the OP, we've sold off what made us a great team and once Virgil goes in the summer we're down to the bare bones. After Virgil we'll no doubt sell Boufal....It's all well and good blooding youth but let's be honest, we don't have any diamonds anymore and haven't since Luke Shaw.

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The thread started in December, so hardly counts as the beginning. Try to read before jumping the gun.
when is the beginning for you then, first week, first month, first season? The thread i put up is in December 2014 and so a few weeks before where we are now with Redmond as he had only a few months at our club. Search Mane and there a loads and loads of threads, you might find one before that.
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GKs

Forster - lower prem to champ

McCarthy - lower prem

Taylor - unknown

Defenders

Van Dijk - prem

Fonte - lower prem

Gardos - champ

Yoshida - lower prem

Pied - unknown

McQueen - lower prem

Stephens - champ

Bertrand - prem

Targett - lower prem

Soares - prem

Martina - lower prem

 

Midfielders

Clasie - lower prem

Romeu - prem

Ward-Prowse - champ

Höjbjerg - champ

Davis - prem

Reed - lower prem

Isgrove - champ

 

Forwards

Boufal - prem

Sims - lower prem

Tadic - prem

Redmond - champ

Rodríguez - champ

Austin - champ

Long - champ

 

Above is my view of the level of this squad right now - it's pretty average with some notable exceptions. We've done two things over the last 3 seasons - watered down the quality and watered down the team spirit (i.e. sold or alienated most of the squad that achieved back to back promotions). Add to this a manager who appears to not be inspirational to the squad, a deputy who has previously struggled to find any level of success, both of whom are working a system that does not suit the squad of players at their disposal. The decline will continue unfortunately I suspect unless one or more of these issues is corrected. Add to this the atmosphere at SMS is likely to get worse, meaning the '12th man' effect could diminish. Many I know are disillusioned with the style of play, lack of ambition shown by the Board etc. Overall, it is easy to see how our size club could get sucked into a spiral of decline that leads to relegation - it's happened before and it could happen again.

Sorry but this is a load of böllocks, how do you conclude that Austin, Long, Rodriguez, Redmond, Gardos and Forster are championship level and then have the audacity to say Martina is 'lower prem'!? You are taking the pîss!

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when is the beginning for you then, first week, first month, first season? The thread i put up is in December 2014 and so a few weeks before where we are now with Redmond as he had only a few months at our club. Search Mane and there a loads and loads of threads, you might find one before that.

 

The point with Mané is that he showed undoubted class at the start (QPR, Stoke, Arsenal games come to mind). He then went through a sticky spell (the period covered by the thread you cite) before eventually turning things around in the new year. Those flashes of potential have been in far shorter supply with Redmond. Mané, unlike Redmond, also came to a new league and faced s steeper curve which was a mitigating factor.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've seen quality from Redmond, so don't buy all the criticism and think he'll become a useful player. On the other hand, I've seen enough of him from his Brum and Norwich days to have a sense of where his ceiling is. If he has a career like Aaron Lennon for instance, he will have done very well.

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The point with Mané is that he showed undoubted class at the start (QPR, Stoke, Arsenal games come to mind). He then went through a sticky spell (the period covered by the thread you cite) before eventually turning things around in the new year. Those flashes of potential have been in far shorter supply with Redmond. Mané, unlike Redmond, also came to a new league and faced s steeper curve which was a mitigating factor.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've seen quality from Redmond, so don't buy all the criticism and think he'll become a useful player. On the other hand, I've seen enough of him from his Brum and Norwich days to have a sense of where his ceiling is. If he has a career like Aaron Lennon for instance, he will have done very well.

the same can be said of Redmond, he was superb at WHU and Liverpool the other night, there would be others. I am a fan of Redmond as i was of Mane
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Was taking a look at the squad earlier and its frightening how saturated we now are with very middle of the road players - assuming VVD is sold in the summer, we will have arguably a worse squad than we did under Adkins (2013)

 

We have genuinely ran out of players to sell (to the top 6 sides) and we just look fully bloated with unexceptional players.

 

What’s gone wrong with our famous recruitment process - the magic black box? We have one of the most expensive squads in Europe but full of totally bang average premier league players.

 

GKs

Forster

McCarthy

Taylor

 

Defenders

Van Dijk

Fonte

Gardos

Yoshida

Pied

McQueen

Stephens

Bertrand

Targett

Soares

Martina

 

Midfielders

Clasie

Romeu

Ward-Prowse

Höjbjerg

Davis

Reed

Isgrove

 

Forwards

Boufal

Sims

Tadic

Redmond

Rodríguez

Austin

Long

 

For us to be on the verge of getting to our first League Cup Final in 40 years with such a completely bang average squad Claude Puel must be a f***ing managerial genius.

 

Adkins never even got vaguely close with arguably a better squad (according to you).

 

Thanks for pointing that out Heisenberg.

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For us to be on the verge of getting to our first League Cup Final in 40 years with such a completely bang average squad Claude Puel must be a f***ing managerial genius.

 

Adkins never even got vaguely close with arguably a better squad (according to you).

 

Thanks for pointing that out Heisenberg.

Wigan got to the FA Cup recently, as did Millwall...Heisingberg is right on this imo.
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For us to be on the verge of getting to our first League Cup Final in 40 years with such a completely bang average squad Claude Puel must be a f***ing managerial genius.

 

Adkins never even got vaguely close with arguably a better squad (according to you).

 

Thanks for pointing that out Heisenberg.

 

We've played 3 reserve squads to get where we have, 2 at home and 1 away.

 

I just wish people would stop using the LC (which we will be out of by the end of the month) as an excuse for this poor season.

 

Heisenberg is regularly called a troll (no doubt sometimes he says stuff for a reaction) but half the time it is just down to people not liking what he has to say which is how some feel.

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Was taking a look at the squad earlier and its frightening how saturated we now are with very middle of the road players - assuming VVD is sold in the summer, we will have arguably a worse squad than we did under Adkins (2013)

 

We have genuinely ran out of players to sell (to the top 6 sides) and we just look fully bloated with unexceptional players.

What’s gone wrong with our famous recruitment process - the magic black box? We have one of the most expensive squads in Europe but full of totally bang average premier league players.

 

GKs

Forster

McCarthy

Taylor

 

Defenders

Van Dijk

Fonte

Gardos

Yoshida

Pied

McQueen

Stephens

Bertrand

Targett

Soares

Martina

 

Midfielders

Clasie

Romeu

Ward-Prowse

Höjbjerg

Davis

Reed

Isgrove

 

Forwards

Boufal

Sims

Tadic

Redmond

Rodríguez

Austin

Long

 

i really think the magic black box was effectively just our Head of Recruitment, Paul Mitchell, and that when he went to Tottenham it went with him. Yes, I know it is a room full of videos and not a box but it was the analyst who interpreted all of the data who was the real box of tricks. I believe he was responsible for identifying all of our great signings, both players and managers, from Pochettino through Wanyama and Mane to van Dijk. When he want to Tottenham, he not only took Wanyama and Alderweireld with him but also a couple of players he'd have brought here: Dele Alli for 5 million from his former club of MK Dons and Kieran Trippier.The only reason we got van Dijk when Mitchell left was that Spurs opted for Alderweireld instead. Since Mitchell's departure our dealings in the transfer market have been poor and have led to a general downgrading in the quality of the squad. Without Mitchell our emperor has no clothes.

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GKs

Forster - lower prem to champ

McCarthy - lower prem

Taylor - unknown

Defenders

Van Dijk - prem

Fonte - lower prem

Gardos - champ

Yoshida - lower prem

Pied - unknown

McQueen - lower prem

Stephens - champ

Bertrand - prem

Targett - lower prem

Soares - prem

Martina - lower prem

 

Midfielders

Clasie - lower prem

Romeu - prem

Ward-Prowse - champ

Höjbjerg - champ

Davis - prem

Reed - lower prem

Isgrove - champ

 

Forwards

Boufal - prem

Sims - lower prem

Tadic - prem

Redmond - champ

Rodríguez - champ

Austin - champ

Long - champ

 

Above is my view of the level of this squad right now - it's pretty average with some notable exceptions. We've done two things over the last 3 seasons - watered down the quality and watered down the team spirit (i.e. sold or alienated most of the squad that achieved back to back promotions). Add to this a manager who appears to not be inspirational to the squad, a deputy who has previously struggled to find any level of success, both of whom are working a system that does not suit the squad of players at their disposal. The decline will continue unfortunately I suspect unless one or more of these issues is corrected. Add to this the atmosphere at SMS is likely to get worse, meaning the '12th man' effect could diminish. Many I know are disillusioned with the style of play, lack of ambition shown by the Board etc. Overall, it is easy to see how our size club could get sucked into a spiral of decline that leads to relegation - it's happened before and it could happen again.

 

As you have time n your hands, how about running the same analysis on Stoke, West Brom, West Ham, Everton, Bournemouth, etc etc

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Personally I'd prefer some identity back. The feel good factor is seeing us win no matter what league we are in. I enjoyed the lower leagues, we played decent football, had more games and got some success. Saturday's gave me the good feeling of having seen my team win - it didn't matter what league we were in. We also played more games and weren't being ripped off just to pay silly wages. I'm going to be radical but if relegation meant that again I'd take it. I'm fed up with being treated like a mug by The Premier League and dare I say it our club too. I'm also fed up seeing players just come and go.

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What is wrong with being midtable

 

We have midtable players a midtable stadium and midtable revenues

 

Just think we are a midtable club

 

Mid table is the ideal. No worries about Europe or relegation. Consistently in the top league and with the opportunity to give one of the big boys a bloody nose now and again. Sounds great !

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