Ethics and Principles

[whelk]

Does anyone change their spending based on principle?

i fucking hate Amazon and highlighted yesterday still treating all their agency staff like shit and in effect on zero hour contracts whilst making billions. But they are convenient but I’d rather not use when I can

I will never go to Starbucks for their tax avoidance. Basically I don’t have many and wish I had more.

Oh  and I try not to laugh at Jimmy Carr and never shop at Primark although that is cos I would never wear their shit rather than they make in in Indonesian sweat shops.

Dubai never appealed to me anyway but they look like they are ruled by a right cunt.

 

[AlexLaw76]

No really.

[Turkish]

Im really opposed to racism and always talk about it how much other people should be doing to stop it. When i had the chance to pull someone up on racism in the workplace i shat myself and cared more about self preservation than the victim, so yes you could say i do.

Edited 19 February, 2021 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

Amazon tend to pay the highest rates when they move into an area, which is a good thing surely?

Granted they predominantly offer zero hour contracts, but that tends to suit most - those that want to work don't generally go short of hours. Holidays are an average of the last twelve weeks so no one misses out there. Pensions are on a pay as you earn basis.

I guess the only other benefit would be sick pay but I have no idea what they do or don't offer....

[Lighthouse]

Missed a trick with the thread title, should have gone with, ‘The Only Way is Ethics’.

Personally I’ll take the ethical option when possible but it’s such a minefield and it’s very easy to be a hypocrite. Dubai for example; yes Sheikh Al Maktoum seems like a helmet to us but UAE is a relatively civilised country in that region. I’d certainly rather go there for some early/late season sun than Yemen, Iran, Saudi, Pakistan or Syria.

Same with businesses, I’ll generally try to avoid Amazon but the manufacturer I’m buying from may not necessarily be more ethical themselves. I tend to end up in Costa if I want a quick coffee.

[buctootim]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

Does anyone change their spending based on principle?

Hybrid for me. I do look for fairtrade, no palm oil, avoid tax avoiders etc but if its the only one available or the preferred item is twice the price principles take second seat. I don't think there is any shame in that.

The issue of ethical purchasing is so, so complicated even after working in a related field for 20 years there is still a huge amount I don't know even within my area. You can't expect consumers to make informed choice about everything from 'green' electricity, child labour in Bangladesh, caustic soda pumped into rivers by paper manufacturers, embedded carbon in manufactured goods or sort their recycling instantly telling the difference between PET and Polypropylene. It has to be governments who use the tax, tariff and grant schemes to differentiate product prices dependent on how they were produced.        

Edited 19 February, 2021 by buctootim

[ecuk268]

The problem with Amazon is that they're so bloody efficient.

You can order something late afternoon and it'll be there the next day so, if you're in a hurry, they are the best.

I prefer to shop locally but sometimes they are the best option. I've got a relative who delivers for them as part of their Flex scheme. You won't get rich but it's not too bad. As long as you turn up on time, you get paid even if, as has happened, there's a problem at the depot and they've can't give you your parcels. 

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, ecuk268 said:

The problem with Amazon is that they're so bloody efficient.

Exactly. I have prime membership and its awesome. But if one company is too good and too big they can dictate wages, decide if and how much tax they are going to pay, play governments off against each other and stifle innovation because they buy up emerging competitors. 

At some stage Amazon and some of the SM companies will have to be broken up like Standard Oil were in the states eons ago.       

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Wetherspoons. 
 

And no, it’s not because of the shit food and two mile walk to the toilets. 

[Mystic Force]

Well I like the idea of being ethical, however along with most people I am too lazy to look too hard. Working in the industry I do, I know what most people say they care does not really matter. Take for example non GMO food, so Europe banned GMO in food and I worked for a company that made a product that could be used in food derived from corn, for EU food product we used either potato or non GMO corn, however the same product is used in pharmaceuticals in the EU from GMO just fine (it helps with the properties of drug active ingredients) and the chemical is made using an enzyme produced by a genetically modified bacteria. If you have ever breathed in some febreeze will you are consuming a product made from GMO Iowa corn. So if you look at that little bit of the supply chain I outlined and for the sake of argument believe there was something unethical about GMO (I am not arguing one way or other, just using as a case study) how can you ever really make an informed choice?

 

My view is that I want the minimum ethical bit imposed by regulation because it is virtually impossible to do it as individuals, and create a level playing field. Although my pie in the sky idea is impractical for the 1000 reasons I know you all have and I probably already know 857 of them. I want a better and improving world not a perfect one.

[benjii]

5 hours ago, buctootim said:

Hybrid for me. I do look for fairtrade, no palm oil, avoid tax avoiders etc but if its the only one available or the preferred item is twice the price principles take second seat. I don't think there is any shame in that.

The issue of ethical purchasing is so, so complicated even after working in a related field for 20 years there is still a huge amount I don't know even within my area. You can't expect consumers to make informed choice about everything from 'green' electricity, child labour in Bangladesh, caustic soda pumped into rivers by paper manufacturers, embedded carbon in manufactured goods or sort their recycling instantly telling the difference between PET and Polypropylene. It has to be governments who use the tax, tariff and grant schemes to differentiate product prices dependent on how they were produced.        

This.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, benjii said:

This.

Yeah, me too.  I like my principles to be on the flexible side so I can decide whether or not I should bother to follow them.  Especially when it comes to price.  I mean if something seems a little bit pricey I'm happy to chuck those principles out of the window to save a few quid 

I consider my principles to be elastic, that way I can sleep soundly at night knowing that sometimes I follow them, sometimes I don't.

I've also researched all the companies I will ever deal with to figure out which ones are tax 'avoiders' - wait, hang on a minute, which one is the illegal one again, oh it's so confusing isn't it, maybe timmy will know?

[AlexLaw76]

Anyone principled enough to avoid Southampton FC, noting the shady background of the owner (execution trial in home country)?

 

 

[Verbal]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Yeah, me too.  I like my principles to be on the flexible side so I can decide whether or not I should bother to follow them.  Especially when it comes to price.  I mean if something seems a little bit pricey I'm happy to chuck those principles out of the window to save a few quid 

I consider my principles to be elastic, that way I can sleep soundly at night knowing that sometimes I follow them, sometimes I don't.

I've also researched all the companies I will ever deal with to figure out which ones are tax 'avoiders' - wait, hang on a minute, which one is the illegal one again, oh it's so confusing isn't it, maybe timmy will know?

If you want to torture yourself, fine.  But the relationship between ethics, principles and action is rarely mechanical.  For example, showing audiences video of the suffering of animals in slaughterhouses or in factory farming usually - so long as it's not an audience of psychopaths - evokes emotions of disgust and horror.  The logical-seeming response is to convert wholesale to veganism.  But that is unlikely to happen, and there are other ways to defend animal welfare standards, not least through public campaigns leading to legislative change.  

So there's a difference between giving up meat and campaigning for change - given that only a small minority is going to give up meat, by far the more effective action is to support better welfare standards. 

Similarly with Amazon.  Is it better to stop shopping there, knowing everyone else will carry on, or to support things like unionisation of its workforce (Bezos is notoriously and aggressively anti-union, so even that's not an easy ask).  Or, as today, instead of boycotting Uber, welcoming the Supreme Court's ruling against Uber and its horrifically exploitative practice of luring in drivers  as 'contractors', hooking them up to punitive 'deals' on car ownership and insurance, then hitting them with successive pay cuts and increased costs?

Oh, and it's evasion that's illegal, not avoidance.  But today's avoidance can easily turn into tomorrow's evasion - it all depends on legal challenges and rulings.  

[Weston Super Saint]

Whoosh?

Perhaps I should have concluded my post with  /sarcasm...

[The Cat]

I like to spread my custom around and support small businesses but it's not a hard and fast rule. I'll buy a load of beer from Unity or Bitter Virtue, but then also stop on the way home from work and get some cans from Tesco even though I don't like them.

There's a few independent online clothes shops I use but I'll also get the odd thing from a larger store although I totally avoid Sports Direct because Ashley is a massive cock and Primark because it's grim company with shitty clothes. 

I spend too much money on music and this is one area I make sure I buy from independent shops, Vinilo in town, or Pie & Vinyl in Southsea and Resident in Brighton. Or I'll use bandcamp. I don't have a Spotify account because they are a horrible company who screw over the artists.

I'd never buy anything from a company that has ever sponsored the skates. 

One of the main problems with buying ethically is that it's hard to know just who owns what. Loads of big companies swallow up smaller ones without people really knowing. 

[Jonnyboy]

I don't donate anything to Labour at the moment and Le Tiss is slap bang back in my hero books. 

 

[Lighthouse]

I thought he’d deleted his Twitter account, although I have to admit I stopped following him a long while ago. Is he still a Covid denying helmet on there or has he seen sense?

[Jonnyboy]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I thought he’d deleted his Twitter account, although I have to admit I stopped following him a long while ago. Is he still a Covid denying helmet on there or has he seen sense?

Not sure, I've just started following him today. 

[ChrisPY]

11 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Anyone principled enough to avoid Southampton FC, noting the shady background of the owner (execution trial in home country)?

 

 

I am. Stopped going to games around March last year and haven’t been back since.

[Weston Super Saint]

21 hours ago, buctootim said:

Hybrid for me. I do look for fairtrade, no palm oil, avoid tax avoiders etc but if its the only one available or the preferred item is twice the price principles take second seat. I don't think there is any shame in that.

 

Let's hope you don't get offered the AZ vaccine then  

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-6522913/Almost-1-5-biggest-firms-paid-year-5-got-handout-taxman.html

 

I assume all you post only gets delivered by couriers that you have thoroughly vetted as well  

[Fan The Flames]

On 19/02/2021 at 22:04, Jonnyboy said:

I don't donate anything to Labour at the moment and Le Tiss is slap bang back in my hero books. 

 

Yeah cos both of them are shops.

[Fan The Flames]

My wife has wanted to go to Dubai for years, but I've always refused as they are religious nutters.

[whelk]

4 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

My wife has wanted to go to Dubai for years, but I've always refused as they are religious nutters.

I know Lighthouse will disagree but feel Dubai is for basic uncultured people who just want sunshine and shiny things. Yes I am a snob 

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

I know Lighthouse will disagree but feel Dubai is for basic uncultured people who just want sunshine and shiny things. Yes I am a snob 

There is a good quote about Dubai by the American writer PJ O'Rourke talking about how gaudy everything is. "I'd never been anywhere where I'd seen so much I didn't want, which surprised me because I'd always assumed I wanted most things in life".  

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

I know Lighthouse will disagree but feel Dubai is for basic uncultured people who just want sunshine and shiny things. Yes I am a snob 

Sunshine, it’s cheap, quick and easy to get to and I’ve got 6 or 7 mates out there I’ve not seen for a while. Never been there for the culture.

[egg]

26 minutes ago, whelk said:

I know Lighthouse will disagree but feel Dubai is for basic uncultured people who just want sunshine and shiny things. Yes I am a snob 

Yep. I had the misfortune of going there with my wife a couple of years ago. High rises, malls, sunshine, chavs, flash cars. Not much else. Sure, it's shiny and lovely, but you get as much culture in Benidorm. 

[Lighthouse]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. I had the misfortune of going there with my wife a couple of years ago. High rises, malls, sunshine, chavs, flash cars. Not much else. Sure, it's shiny and lovely, but you get as much culture in Benidorm. 

Can’t say I’ve really noticed chavs being there. When I said it’s cheap to get to, I didn’t mean EasyJet - €50 return to Mallorca - cheap. If I was going to complain about anyone it’d be tw*tty bankers in flash cars who think they’re the bee’s knees.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Can’t say I’ve really noticed chavs being there. When I said it’s cheap to get to, I didn’t mean EasyJet - €50 return to Mallorca - cheap. If I was going to complain about anyone it’d be tw*tty bankers in flash cars who think they’re the bee’s knees.

That was certainly my experience. It's glitzy as hell, very futuristic, all super slick, but when you see the people on the plane, the people at "ladies nights", the number of people chucking as much booze down them as possible at a "brunch", the sports bars in the hotels, etc, its clear that its not a classy place. The only thing vaguely close to culture were the souks and the little boat in the old quarter but the rest of it you could experience anywhere else. The cars parading around the beach at Jumeirah were a bit of a sight though. 

[Jonnyboy]

6 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Yeah cos both of them are shops.

The OP opens with "Does anyone change their spending based on principle?" 

Where does shops come into it? 

 

Edited 21 February, 2021 by Jonnyboy

[Lighthouse]

29 minutes ago, egg said:

That was certainly my experience. It's glitzy as hell, very futuristic, all super slick, but when you see the people on the plane, the people at "ladies nights", the number of people chucking as much booze down them as possible at a "brunch", the sports bars in the hotels, etc, its clear that its not a classy place. The only thing vaguely close to culture were the souks and the little boat in the old quarter but the rest of it you could experience anywhere else. The cars parading around the beach at Jumeirah were a bit of a sight though. 

I’m not sure I get where the ‘it’s tacky, flash and not remotely cultural’ argument really comes from. I’ve never seen anyone trying to claim otherwise. I’m just not sure where you get ‘chavy’ from. That to me suggests people on low income or unemployed, Nissans with body kits and stupid exhausts, public drunkenness, smashing up bus stops and the phrase, "I swear on me’ nan’s grave!" I’ve never seen anything like that in Dubai.

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m not sure I get where the ‘it’s tacky, flash and not remotely cultural’ argument really comes from. I’ve never seen anyone trying to claim otherwise. I’m just not sure where you get ‘chavy’ from. That to me suggests people on low income or unemployed, Nissans with body kits and stupid exhausts, public drunkenness, smashing up bus stops and the phrase, "I swear on me’ nan’s grave!" I’ve never seen anything like that in Dubai.

Money doesn't buy class. There a plenty of chavs with money out there. 

[Matthew Le God]

I get my ethics and principles from an old book with unknown authorship. 

[Weston Super Saint]

40 minutes ago, egg said:

Money doesn't buy class. There a plenty of chavs with money out there. 

Depends on your definition of 'class'.

Dubai is predominantly 'new' money.  Those that enjoy Dubai the most want to see the latest gadgets, supercars, yachts etc.  To them, that is what they consider to be 'class'.

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Depends on your definition of 'class'.

Dubai is predominantly 'new' money.  Those that enjoy Dubai the most want to see the latest gadgets, supercars, yachts etc.  To them, that is what they consider to be 'class'.

And to those that have class that is vulgar

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

And to those that have class that is vulgar

Class is not a requirement in order to consider that vulgar  

[Lighthouse]

I’d say Dubai was more ‘yuppie’ culture than anything.

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Sunshine, it’s cheap, quick and easy to get to and I’ve got 6 or 7 mates out there I’ve not seen for a while. Never been there for the culture.

Isn’t it ridiculously expensive when you get there? I don’t think it’d be my thing but I know a few who’ve been there and heard lots of stories about £40 for a couple of glasses of wine.

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Isn’t it ridiculously expensive when you get there? I don’t think it’d be my thing but I know a few who’ve been there and heard lots of stories about £40 for a couple of glasses of wine.

Alcohol is crazy expensive, and eating out can be as expensive or reasonable as you want - afternoon tea £20 at somewhere reasonable, but north of £100 I think at the Palm. Transport was cheap. Excursions not so. On the whole we found it more reasonably priced than we expected. 

We did Reykjavik a couple of years before and found that to be more expensive on the whole. Now that is a place I do recommend. 

Edited 21 February, 2021 by egg

[The Cat]

We went in the late 90's a few times when a friend lived there.

It was largely a building site then, there were some large skyscrapers but nothing like it is now. You needed a license to buy alcohol and there were only a few bars in hotels (one of which was designed to mimic the bar in Cheers)

It didn't seem overly flashy then and there weren't loads of tourists. It was obviously very hierarchical though. Westerners worked for companies, locals worked for Government and only did 4 days a week, Indians and other Asians were all taxi drivers or on building sites. 

We basically went because we had a friend there and free accommodation. Wouldn't have gone otherwise and wouldn't go back.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

The OP opens with "Does anyone change their spending based on principle?" 

Where does shops come into it? 

 

Well it's a given that political donations are based on principles and the other thing was Matt Le Tissier's Twitter.

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Isn’t it ridiculously expensive when you get there? I don’t think it’d be my thing but I know a few who’ve been there and heard lots of stories about £40 for a couple of glasses of wine.

It is if you go there alone but when I do I’m not paying for any accommodation and my friends all have discount cards for many establishments. It’s still not exactly cheap but in mid March, when I’ve had enough of the English winter and the med is still too cold, it’s a decent enough 10 days for me.

[buctootim]

11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s still not exactly cheap but in mid March, when I’ve had enough of the English winter and the med is still too cold, it’s a decent enough 10 days for me.

Obviously visiting friends is a big part of it for you. but consider Agadir in Southern Morocco if you want  something a bit different. Around 25-26c daytime in March. Cheap too    

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, egg said:

Alcohol is crazy expensive, and eating out can be as expensive or reasonable as you want - afternoon tea £20 at somewhere reasonable, but north of £100 I think at the Palm. Transport was cheap. Excursions not so. On the whole we found it more reasonably priced than we expected. 

We did Reykjavik a couple of years before and found that to be more expensive on the whole. Now that is a place I do recommend. 

Reykjavik is high on the list. When my mate recovers from Covid and we can travel again we’re booking as all of us have wanted to do it for a long time. 

[Turkish]

49 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It is if you go there alone but when I do I’m not paying for any accommodation and my friends all have discount cards for many establishments. It’s still not exactly cheap but in mid March, when I’ve had enough of the English winter and the med is still too cold, it’s a decent enough 10 days for me.

Fair enough. One of my missus old friends lives there now and we’ve been invited over to stay with them, not somewhere I’ve ever particularly fancied. I would agree with Timmy on Agadir, decent place and good weather. We went in November and was mid twenties. Plus you can do Marrakech from there which is well worth a visit. We went back to Marrakech for a week a few years later with some friends.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Fair enough. One of my missus old friends lives there now and we’ve been invited over to stay with them, not somewhere I’ve ever particularly fancied. I would agree with Timmy on Agadir, decent place and good weather. We went in November and was mid twenties. Plus you can do Marrakech from there which is well worth a visit. We went back to Marrakech for a week a few years later with some friends.

I know, I flew you home. Ive heard good things about Agadir before, so it’s definitely on the list. 

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Fair enough. One of my missus old friends lives there now and we’ve been invited over to stay with them, not somewhere I’ve ever particularly fancied. I would agree with Timmy on Agadir, decent place and good weather. We went in November and was mid twenties. Plus you can do Marrakech from there which is well worth a visit. We went back to Marrakech for a week a few years later with some friends.

I want to visit Marrakech so will definitely give it a try. If you go back to Agadir both Paradise Valley and Taroudant are easy drives and really worth seeing.  

[Lord Duckhunter]

I was looking at Agadir a couple of years back, but someone told me it’s full of Russians. Having spent time in Kos with them, it was a no from me. Are there a lot of them there. 

[egg]

2 hours ago, buctootim said:

Obviously visiting friends is a big part of it for you. but consider Agadir in Southern Morocco if you want  something a bit different. Around 25-26c daytime in March. Cheap too    

We enjoyed Agadir. Nice place, although we didn't venture out of town. Hadn't thought of it as a spring option but it's a good shout 👍

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I was looking at Agadir a couple of years back, but someone told me it’s full of Russians. Having spent time in Kos with them, it was a no from me. Are there a lot of them there. 

I didnt see many / any. But then I was renting an Airbnb in the city in March and April rather than the hotels / tourist area. Dunno if its an issue there or not