Weston Super Saint Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Don't forget, whatever happens the 'losing' side gets the chance to appeal..... Also, AA can also show his trump card, which would be the forensic accounting that he's been working tirelessly on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningtonCrescent Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 If HMRC do as theysaidand end by 1530hrs, surely they must come to the nitty gritty soon, or is that it? Or does the relevant documentation previously submitted be admissible for decision purposes. Or was that if they didn't go to lunch? It like the opening statements.... prosecution get their say... followed by defence..... then they have a big mud fight and interrogate each other.. the judge might make some observations and ask for the odd adjournment to consider a legal point or three.... and then they eventually get to a point, sometime tomorrow, when the judge says "i've heard enough, i'm off to make a decision"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Twitters gone quiet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningtonCrescent Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Hayling Jerry scores spectacular own goal...... 1 to the blue few i'm afraid! "I was in Milan that night"....... Doh! Come on Saints, get the facts right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Nothing of mine is getting through on the News site. I'm Hayling Jerry. Oh, oh. Think that you may have blown your cover!! Comment From andy s andy s : ] Hayling Jerry, why were you in Milan when the game was at Fratton Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landford.saint Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Any of you legal bods out there know the answer o this please. The documentation handed in prior to the case, and at the commencement of this mornings hearing. Is that admissable evidence which can be used by the judge without being raised in 'open' court. Or must it be reffered to in court. Because there is no jury, I'm guessing that whatever is in these documents will be read by the judge and used or discarded when he comes to his final pronouncement regardless of whether they were actually spoken or reffered to in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 ooops lol. I doubt many of them would have noticed anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katalinic Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 ooops lol. I doubt many of them would have noticed anyway Just tell them you were "in Milan" as in Mandaric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burger Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Famous fans? why no mention of Lester Piggott or Ken Dodd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Hayling Jerry scores spectacular own goal...... 1 to the blue few i'm afraid! "I was in Milan that night"....... Doh! Come on Saints, get the facts right! Maybe he meant Manderic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 From the news: The arguments are over whether HMRC might have suffered prejudicial treatment by Pompey and, the crux, whether that prejudicial treatment was unfair. Mr Justice Mann and Mr Mitchell are consulting case history as they debate the issue. The judge is trying to pinpoint exactly which grounds the Revenue has brought the case against the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Famous fans? why no mention of Lester Piggott or Ken Dodd? just to let you all know Corporate Ho is online.... I wonder if he will add any of his wisdom...??? Hello Corpy....xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 (edited) ... Edited 3 August, 2010 by tony13579 too slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 172 online and watching the lounge. lol Just got in - anyone care to summarise the day so far in a nutshell? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Bates Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Roll on Thursday I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 If, as we believe, this is the first case of one set of unsecured creditors receiving more than another set of unsecured creditors from company assets, rather than from new money from outside the company, through the implementation of the football creditors rule, then the Judge will be setting a new precedent on the interpretation of "unfair prejudice" in those circumstances under the existing law, and will want to be sure that he doesn't trip over any existing judgements in arriving at his decision. It's in HMRC's appeal, so he has to make a decision, even though, in this particular instance, the CVA might fail for other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 the news 16:05 Chris: Now the argument is based around the differences between the rules of association for the premier league and football league and what happens to a club in either which becomes insolvent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burger Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 A thread with no petty bickering between Saints fans......slow day in court - Skates accused of tax evasion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 172 online and watching the lounge. lol Just got in - anyone care to summarise the day so far in a nutshell? cheers Pompey have been liquidated with immediate affect. John W******d broke down in tears outside the courtroom when he heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Do you know what? I've forgotten who I am now..........Chinnery..? Nah. Eternal Optomist? Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 the news: 16:17 Chris: Now they're examining in great detail what happened when Wimbledon FC went bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 16:17 Now they're examining in great detail what happened when Wimbledon FC went bust. The Wimbledon judgement is interesting as the reason given by the judge for HMRC losing in that case doesn't apply to Pompey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Pompey have been liquidated with immediate affect. John W******d broke down in tears outside the courtroom when he heard. Nice one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiesaint Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 16:05 Chris: Now the argument is based around the differences between the rules of association for the premier league and football league and what happens to a club in either which becomes insolvent. Be interesting to know what they are looking for in the rules of association - neither has any relevence to insolvency law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 The Wimbledon judgement is interesting as the reason given by the judge for HMRC losing in that case doesn't apply to Pompey. Suspect HMRC telling judge he should not use the wimbledon case as a precedent so he will be checking to make sure that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Didn't Sam Hammam get a covenant overturned so he could sell Plough Lane to Safeway???????? I've said it once already today, but those poor sods down the M27 haven't got a flamin clue what is happening.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 I've said it once already today, but those poor sods down the M27 haven't got a flamin clue what is happening.... Indeed , they don't seem to have any understanding at all just blind optimism and hope and a disturbing lack of contrition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 DanKing_NOTW tweeted Portsmouths breif asks taxman to go away and think overnight about wether he wants to go ahead with appeal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Adjourned, second half kicks off tomorrow at 10am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 the news 16:37 Chris: The court has now adjourned and the hearing will resume at 10am tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones91 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 This is actually the slowest week ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for_heaven's_Saint Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Anyone planning on going tomorrow? I'm in London with a couple of hours to spare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrek Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Judge Mann seems unsure of HMRC's grounds for appeal against Pompey CVA Doh! Surely HMRC can't screw this up?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaempty Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 DanKing_NOTW: Half time in Court 52. Portsmouth administrators definitely ahead. Crowd tired and confused Doesn't sound good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Doh! Surely HMRC can't screw this up?! None of the reporters there seem to fully grasp what's going on and what everything means, so I wouldn't read too much into that. The judge said he'd probably pass judgement on Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Doesn't sound good! I don't think a Sports journalist from the News of the World is the best judge of the way a High Court insolvency appeal case is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Plus we still have AA having to be cross examined about why he chose to ignore a share of HMRC debt without explaining why & Lampitt explaining what he meant in the meeting with fan's when he said something along the lines of "and HMRC are also massaging their figures" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMPR Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 I don't think a Sports journalist from the News of the World is the best judge of the way a High Court insolvency appeal case is going. Almost as much as a school teacher anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawillwill Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 I don't think a Sports journalist from the News of the World is the best judge of the way a High Court insolvency appeal case is going. To be fair, he's probably more qualified than the majority of Saints fans on this thread though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 To be fair, he's probably more qualified than the majority of Saints fans on this thread though. I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Suspect HMRC telling judge he should not use the wimbledon case as a precedent so he will be checking to make sure that is the case. I would have thought there will be mixed opinion about the wimbledon case as all creditors got the small % in the pound from the CVA and only new buyers put the money in to pay the rest off to football creditors. HMRC wants to get rid of the FCR on one hand but if its going to stay they will want to make sure any money the club have in parachute payments and so on, should be going to all the creditors and any new owner should be paying the football creditors the rest of there money to satisfy any members club. If the parachute money and tv rights money and all that were to be used just to pay a percentage in the pound it should put that percentage to more than 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint 76er Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 It sounds like HMRC are launching a tax evasion case, when this trial is supposed to be an appeal against AA awarding himself a CVA in incredibly dubious and dodgy circumstances. That being a case HMRC should be able to win easily using a calculator with fresh batteries to disprove all the rubbery figures and probably get AA booted out at the same time. His previous in such matters probably won't look good and no doubt the judge will be aware of it. However, HMRC appear to have eschewed this golden opportunity and gone off on a tangent pursuing some broader tax evasion scenario which is not the actual purpose of this particular trial. No wonder His Honour has become slightly confused with this approach (if only Rumpole were available)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 My second favourite court room drama.... I'm getting ideas for a new subtitled video...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzmeister Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Im sure this has been mentioned plenty of times on this thread (i am not going to read all the pages) but I used to work in corporate insolvency albeit only for a year. Now of the little that I learnt it was all focussed round the insolvency act and the differentiation between primary and secondary creditors. Primary being staff of the club - players etc and secondary being all third parties owed money - HMRC, local charities etc etc. From what I understand HMRC are complaining that millionair players are taking precient over money owed to them. If they were employees of the club at time of administration then by the terms of the Insolvency Act this is perfectly acceptable and completly legal. I agree that other clubs owed money should not be paid in advance of them and that of the Premier League have also directed money which should have gone to Pompey to other potential secondary creditors then again this is contestable. WIth this in mind I dont see why they should be appealing the CVA of Pompey but more the legality of Premier League rules - I will be interested to know what the outcome is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Sounds like the HMRC is flakey at best.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 It sounds like HMRC are launching a tax evasion case, when this trial is supposed to be an appeal against AA awarding himself a CVA in incredibly dubious and dodgy circumstances. That being a case HMRC should be able to win easily using a calculator with fresh batteries to disprove all the rubbery figures and probably get AA booted out at the same time. His previous in such matters probably won't look good and no doubt the judge will be aware of it. However, HMRC appear to have eschewed this golden opportunity and gone off on a tangent pursuing some broader tax evasion scenario which is not the actual purpose of this particular trial. No wonder His Honour has become slightly confused with this approach (if only Rumpole were available)... Exactly, this is one of the things I've thought all along, why do posters on this thread have so much faith in HMRC? Wouldn't put it past them at all to f**k up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 I look on this appeal as no more than a bonus TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 (edited) My second favourite court room drama.... I'm getting ideas for a new subtitled video...... Before I do the subtitles, would anyone like to add or amend anything????? HMRC Vs Android Android: You want answers? HMRC: I think we're entitled. Android: You want answers?! HMRC: We want the truth! Android: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has football and this football needs to be guarded by men in the Premier League. Who's gonna do it? You? You, HMRC? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Taxpayer and curse Pompey; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that not paying tax, while tragic, probably saved footballers jobs and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves football clubs. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in this club, you need me in this club. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use them as the backbone of a club trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps with his Sky Sports subscription and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a football club. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. HMRC: Did you deliberately skew the CVA Android: I did the job I had to do. HMRC: Did you deliberately skew the CVA Android: You're God damn right I did! Edited 3 August, 2010 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Im sure this has been mentioned plenty of times on this thread (i am not going to read all the pages) but I used to work in corporate insolvency albeit only for a year. Now of the little that I learnt it was all focussed round the insolvency act and the differentiation between primary and secondary creditors. Primary being staff of the club - players etc and secondary being all third parties owed money - HMRC, local charities etc etc. From what I understand HMRC are complaining that millionair players are taking precient over money owed to them. If they were employees of the club at time of administration then by the terms of the Insolvency Act this is perfectly acceptable and completly legal. I agree that other clubs owed money should not be paid in advance of them and that of the Premier League have also directed money which should have gone to Pompey to other potential secondary creditors then again this is contestable. WIth this in mind I dont see why they should be appealing the CVA of Pompey but more the legality of Premier League rules - I will be interested to know what the outcome is! some were employees, many were ex-employees, many football creditors were agents, other clubs, scouts etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 3 August, 2010 Share Posted 3 August, 2010 Exactly, this is one of the things I've thought all along, why do posters on this thread have so much faith in HMRC? Wouldn't put it past them at all to f**k up. Even if they do they can still appeal this appeal, and drag it all out a whole further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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