asset stripping, aiming for 7th, or relegation?

[NickG]

Trying to look at which is most likely as objectively as possible.

 

Relegation?

All bookies I have just looked at have us safely finishing 9th.

In the 12/13 season Nigel Adkins achieved 14th, and nicely safe before the end of the season with;

Boruc /Davies

Clyne

Yoshida

Jos

Fonte

Morgan

Lallana - at time when many slated him

Lambert

Fonte

Davis

Ramirez

Puncheon

JayRod - not same level as last season

Puncheon

Shaw (inexperienced 17 year old one.

 

Even if we lose Morgan, Chambers, Lovren and JayRod it won't be hard to recruit to better that squad. JWP, reed, Gallagher, isgrove add something. We won't get relegated.

 

Asset stripping / fire sale?

Looking at search signing independently they can easily be justified and prices good. What gets to people is the volume. Most people are amazed at the prices we are getting - we clearly aren't cheaply cashing in. How much profit on Lovren? Lallana double price of Tadic? Shaw one of most expensive defenders in history?

Would we want, or be able to attract Koeman if in a fire sale? His brother? Watson from another club? Sammy Lee? Much cheaper ways of doing it. We have had a confirmed bit for England squad player.

 

I think it is likely Koeman saw Pelle and Tadic as upgrades on Lallana and Lambert so jumped at chance.

Lovren the club wanted but his comments made it hard, nothing to do with ambition - money and CL.

Chambers? He is too good to be 2nd choice in a team of our level. Thought at end of season some sense in selling him. Great to have, but how likely would he sit behind another RB for a club like us?

 

I think we have had disappointing departures

I wish club would make some signings but facts still more consistent with aim of 7th than a relegation battle / fire sale / asset strip.

[Shroppie]

Trying to look at which is most likely as objectively as possible.

 

Relegation?

All bookies I have just looked at have us safely finishing 9th.

In the 12/13 season Nigel Adkins achieved 14th, and nicely safe before the end of the season with;

Boruc /Davies

Clyne

Yoshida

Jos

Fonte

Morgan

Lallana - at time when many slated him

Lambert

Fonte

Davis

Ramirez

Puncheon

JayRod - not same level as last season

Puncheon

Shaw (inexperienced 17 year old one.

 

Even if we lose Morgan, Chambers, Lovren and JayRod it won't be hard to recruit to better that squad. JWP, reed, Gallagher, isgrove add something. We won't get relegated.

 

Asset stripping / fire sale?

Looking at search signing independently they can easily be justified and prices good. What gets to people is the volume. Most people are amazed at the prices we are getting - we clearly aren't cheaply cashing in. How much profit on Lovren? Lallana double price of Tadic? Shaw one of most expensive defenders in history?

Would we want, or be able to attract Koeman if in a fire sale? His brother? Watson from another club? Sammy Lee? Much cheaper ways of doing it. We have had a confirmed bit for England squad player.

 

I think it is likely Koeman saw Pelle and Tadic as upgrades on Lallana and Lambert so jumped at chance.

Lovren the club wanted but his comments made it hard, nothing to do with ambition - money and CL.

Chambers? He is too good to be 2nd choice in a team of our level. Thought at end of season some sense in selling him. Great to have, but how likely would he sit behind another RB for a club like us?

 

I think we have had disappointing departures

I wish club would make some signings but facts still more consistent with aim of 7th than a relegation battle / fire sale / asset strip.

Sane, balanced post. Thank you.

 

But surely not acceptable on this wrist-slitting forum?

[Smirking_Saint]

Id of said its pretty obvious it isnt a fire sale, and I think we will be clear of rekegation however I genuinely believe squad upheaval especially, what ? 5 weeks until the season is potentially very damaging indeed for preperation, for that instance I dont think you can completely rule out relegation however I think we will be clear, a bottom 10 finish for me though

 

You cant really blame people for questioning the board, the level of departures worrying, damaging and personally I think points at certain rifts in the camp

[badgerx16]

If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs..........

 

You simply don't understand that we're a team in crisis and doomed to score a record low points total.

 

( FWIW, I agree with Shroppie - yours is far too sensible an opinion ).

[cellone]

Eight of those players aren't available.

[Saint_Tony]

Will be very surprised if we stay up now. Even if we bring players in, they won't be of the same quality as the 8 or so that we will inevitably sell There must be a massive air of negativity around the club right now, and it must be affecting the players who are still here. Quite simply, everything is going wrong. Bottom line is that we might line up for the first game with Yoshida and Hooiveld as centre backs, which would be a disaster.

[badgerx16]

Eight of those players aren't available.

 

Puncheon and Fonte are listed twice; of the list 4 have left, 1 may be following them, and J-Rod is injured but back in training.

Edited 26 July, 2014 by badgerx16

[cellone]

I was trying to be subtle.

[badgerx16]

I was trying to be subtle.

 

There's so much negativity around here at the moment I tend to go all 'MLG defensive mode'.

[Bos Vegas Saint]

Gotta be some signings this coming week or its gonna be a bad start to the season thats for sure! I've got a sneeky suspicion we will sign a few good replacements in the next 7 days , needs to be soon so the players have a couple of weeks to train together , I'm keeping the faith ( unless nothing happens by this time next week!! )

[Saint-Fred]

For me the difference is we are going to have to throw a team together. Adkins team was essentially the same core that took us from league 1 and been together years?

You could argue Liverpool have the same issue however they could if they chose field 10 starters from the first 11 last year, we will not have that option so the new guys need to gel instantly.

 

There were issues with our team last year such as our inability to turn possession into goals and a lack of pace to hit teams on the break. For me it's not a disaster changing things but we seem to be selling before we have replacements and this could mean we are more and more desperate for players so those high calibre recruits may become anyone who will come.

Don't think it's a fire sale but we are walking a very thin line at the moment I just hope someone knows what they are doing so my fears are proved wrong.

By the way it's now 3 weeks until we play Liverpool not 5.

[NickG]

Sorry for errors in list.

 

So even if Koeman and his team are no better than Adkins, and don't feel players such as Clyne improved, the comparison with side that comfortably stayed up is -

Targett v 17 year old Shaw

JWP, Reed, Wanyama v Morgan

Isgrove, Gallagher, McQueen v Puncheon

 

However, Koeman states several signings to come.

 

I'm not at all worried about relegation.

[Saint Charlie]

We had winning momentum and feel good factor surrounding the club in that first season, plus little media pressure as many expected us to go down.

 

How do you feel the mindset of, for example, Fonte might be now versus then?

[cellone]

There's so much negativity around here at the moment I tend to go all 'MLG defensive mode'.

 

As long as you don't end up 'can you not/do you not'ing all over the shop then it's cool.

[kwsaint]

Apart from anything, we have a huge bank balance to bring in new signings. I think that we will survive comfortably in the end but be in the bottom half, and the early part of the season will be very bumpy. Can't see us making anything like as good a start as last season. And we will have another season with a very small squad

[Baird of the land]

Sorry think we are aiming for 4th bottom whilst extracting large amounts of value from the club via selling players.

[benjii]

Boruc

 

Clyne. Fonte. Yoshi. Targett

 

- - - - - - - Big Vic - - - - - -

 

- - - - JWP/Cork- - - Davis / Ramirez /Tadic

 

Tadic/Ramirez/Davis- - - Pelle - - - Ramirez/Tadic

 

 

K Davis, Jos, Stephens, JWP/Cork, Reed, McQueen/Mayuka, Gallagher

 

That team would not get relegated, IMO. It assumes no Morgan and no Jay Rod and no further signings.

[sussexsaint]

You can prove anything with facts

[Saint Charlie]

Boruc

 

Clyne. Fonte. Yoshi. Targett

 

- - - - - - - Big Vic - - - - - -

 

- - - - JWP/Cork- - - Davis / Ramirez /Tadic

 

Tadic/Ramirez/Davis- - - Pelle - - - Ramirez/Tadic

 

 

K Davis, Jos, Stephens, JWP/Cork, Reed, McQueen/Mayuka, Gallagher

 

That team would not get relegated, IMO. It assumes no Morgan and no Jay Rod and no further signings.

 

Team is ok but with the inevitable injuries the depth is woeful. That is the problem.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I bet you £50 that we don't finish in the top half of the table Nick

[a1ex2001]

For me the difference is we are going to have to throw a team together. Adkins team was essentially the same core that took us from league 1 and been together years?

You could argue Liverpool have the same issue however they could if they chose field 10 starters from the first 11 last year, we will not have that option so the new guys need to gel instantly.

 

There were issues with our team last year such as our inability to turn possession into goals and a lack of pace to hit teams on the break. For me it's not a disaster changing things but we seem to be selling before we have replacements and this could mean we are more and more desperate for players so those high calibre recruits may become anyone who will come.

Don't think it's a fire sale but we are walking a very thin line at the moment I just hope someone knows what they are doing so my fears are proved wrong.

By the way it's now 3 weeks until we play Liverpool not 5.

 

Adkins team spirit and understanding worked brilliantly in the first ten games! It was so lucky we had a well gelled team and got all those points on the board!

 

I'm gutted about the sales this summer it has taken a lot if the shine off our recent rise but I don't for a minute think we will be relegated.

[Charlie Wayman]

Trying to look at which is most likely as objectively as possible.

 

Relegation?

All bookies I have just looked at have us safely finishing 9th.

In the 12/13 season Nigel Adkins achieved 14th, and nicely safe before the end of the season with;

Boruc /Davies

Clyne

Yoshida

Jos

Fonte

Morgan

Lallana - at time when many slated him

Lambert

Fonte

Davis

Ramirez

Puncheon

JayRod - not same level as last season

Puncheon

Shaw (inexperienced 17 year old one.

 

Even if we lose Morgan, Chambers, Lovren and JayRod it won't be hard to recruit to better that squad. JWP, reed, Gallagher, isgrove add something. We won't get relegated.

 

Asset stripping / fire sale?

Looking at search signing independently they can easily be justified and prices good. What gets to people is the volume. Most people are amazed at the prices we are getting - we clearly aren't cheaply cashing in. How much profit on Lovren? Lallana double price of Tadic? Shaw one of most expensive defenders in history?

Would we want, or be able to attract Koeman if in a fire sale? His brother? Watson from another club? Sammy Lee? Much cheaper ways of doing it. We have had a confirmed bit for England squad player.

 

I think it is likely Koeman saw Pelle and Tadic as upgrades on Lallana and Lambert so jumped at chance.

Lovren the club wanted but his comments made it hard, nothing to do with ambition - money and CL.

Chambers? He is too good to be 2nd choice in a team of our level. Thought at end of season some sense in selling him. Great to have, but how likely would he sit behind another RB for a club like us?

 

I think we have had disappointing departures

I wish club would make some signings but facts still more consistent with aim of 7th than a relegation battle / fire sale / asset strip.

 

If you believe this my friend you really are way with the fairies.

 

Putting gloss paint on a rotten door won't stop it falling off it's hinges next week.

 

The club must love people like you, saves them the job of employing expensive PR to try to spin their way out of this decietful mess.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

None of the above.

[Professor]

Rose tinted spectacles are one thing but refusing to see the evidence when its in front of you is quite another. To say that things aren't bad because something good might happen later is just self-delusion. If something better happens to offset the bad, then by all means readjust your assessment but until then fans are right to react to what they see. Its also possible that adverse reactions by fans might have an effect on the decisions being made within the club, which so far have been contrary to their public statements.

You only have to compare our depleted squad with the other squads in the Prem, including even the promoted sides, to see that finishing 7th is a fantasy, even if a few players are purchased to fill the gaps. The big question is whether Koeman has been misled because he is too good a football professional to stay around if he has been.

[SaintRichmond]

Rose tinted spectacles are one thing but refusing to see the evidence when its in front of you is quite another. To say that things aren't bad because something good might happen later is just self-delusion. If something better happens to offset the bad, then by all means readjust your assessment but until then fans are right to react to what they see. Its also possible that adverse reactions by fans might have an effect on the decisions being made within the club, which so far have been contrary to their public statements.

You only have to compare our depleted squad with the other squads in the Prem, including even the promoted sides, to see that finishing 7th is a fantasy, even if a few players are purchased to fill the gaps. The big question is whether Koeman has been misled because he is too good a football professional to stay around if he has been.

 

I think Sir Les talked Double Dutch to him

[70's Mike]

Apart from anything, we have a huge bank balance to bring in new signings. I think that we will survive comfortably in the end but be in the bottom half, and the early part of the season will be very bumpy. Can't see us making anything like as good a start as last season. And we will have another season with a very small squad

first sentence is the question do WE? rest i agree with

[Wes Tender]

You really don't need to make such a sensible post, Nick, as those who have us down for relegation can't be pursuaded by common sense arguments. Anybody who predicts relegation before they even know the team that will play for us this coming season, isn't somebody capable of looking at the big picture, if they can't even see beyond the current situation. They have already made up their minds that the money from these player sales won't be re-invested in replacements, that even if it was, it is impossible that those replacements could actually be better than those who have left.

[Wes Tender]

I think Sir Les talked Double Dutch to him

 

And the prize for the most blinkered, narrow-minded, short-sighted, negative, pessimistic poster on the forum goes to you.

[Coxford_lou]

Adkins team spirit and understanding worked brilliantly in the first ten games! It was so lucky we had a well gelled team and got all those points on the board!

 

I'm gutted about the sales this summer it has taken a lot if the shine off our recent rise but I don't for a minute think we will be relegated.

 

I think success or failure of the team will be more dependent on Koeman (and his tactics) being able to adapt to Premier league. Pochettino worked great (I think partly because he had such an extreme style), but there's no guarantee Koeman will have such an easy transition. I've got lots of faith, but until we see his first game, it's hard to know what will happen...

 

As happened last season, I think the kids will very quickly adapt after doing pre season with the more experiences players, and we'll very quickly have forgotten Shaw, Lallana and be talking about our new stars. As last season, the foreign players will adapt to Premier League at different speeds (some making it, others not). But it all comes down to Koeman in my mind. Can't wait to see how he gets on!

 

Every time I hear about another player leaving, I have three days of being mighty ****ed off, then I calm down, and realise what a massive transition period we're in, that highly likely won't happen again. At the moment it feels like we're sucking the poison out left by Cortese. And maybe that's OK, and the right thing to do. Next year it won't be such an issue, and we'll be able to grow rather than detox. But, if any club can cope with what we're going through right now, it's Saints FC and we should be proud of that.

[Goatboy]

I think success or failure of the team will be more dependent on Koeman (and his tactics) being able to adapt to Premier league. Pochettino worked great (I think partly because he had such an extreme style), but there's no guarantee Koeman will have such an easy transition. I've got lots of faith, but until we see his first game, it's hard to know what will happen...

 

As happened last season, I think the kids will very quickly adapt after doing pre season with the more experiences players, and we'll very quickly have forgotten Shaw, Lallana and be talking about our new stars. As last season, the foreign players will adapt to Premier League at different speeds (some making it, others not). But it all comes down to Koeman in my mind. Can't wait to see how he gets on!

 

Every time I hear about another player leaving, I have three days of being mighty ****ed off, then I calm down, and realise what a massive transition period we're in, that highly likely won't happen again. At the moment it feels like we're sucking the poison out left by Cortese. And maybe that's OK, and the right thing to do. Next year it won't be such an issue, and we'll be able to grow rather than detox. But, if any club can cope with what we're going through right now, it's Saints FC and we should be proud of that.

 

^LIKE^

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Debating which particular strategy this club is pursuing may well be a exercise formulated on a false premise. To adopt a maritime analogy, far from being a ship steering a steady course towards some planned landfall it seems to me we appear to be rather more akin to a rudderless hulk at the mercy of every passing wind and wave. At least that is how the situation strikes this fan.

 

Those claiming to be able to detect some sort of underlying plan hidden beneath this summer's seemingly bizarre 'sell sell sell' transfer activity are I fear deluding themselves. In this type of situation the simplest explanation is more often that not the best one is it not? That simple explanation being that without NC at the helm our owner, Les Reed and the rest of the board don't have the first clue what they are doing.

 

As for those who on place little or no value in the benefits of stability and squad building via a policy of gradual evolution rather than one of brutal revolution ... well their confidence that some hastily thrown together ad hoc squad of strangers we are set to field this coming season will not be troubled by any relegation fears seems misplaced to put it mildly.

 

Indeed, you might say that if our staff and players share in that same level of contempt for the rigours of competing in a division quite as tough as the Premier League certainly is then we almost deserve to go down.

[Cestrian Saint]

I got 150/1 on us being relegated at the end of June. We're now 11/2!!!

[Wes Tender]

As for those who on place little or no value in the benefits of stability and squad building via a policy of gradual evolution rather than one of brutal revolution ... well their confidence that some hastily thrown together ad hoc squad of strangers we are set to field this coming season will not be troubled by any relegation fears seems misplaced to put it mildly.

 

 

So the almighty upheaval at Liverpool, losing the player responsible for placing them so high in the PL and replacing him with wholesale incoming players is not going to threaten them with relegation, but it is going to do that to us?

 

When a Club is taken over by some Russian oligarch, he can spend massive amounts of money on virtually replacing the entire team and they don't seem to get themselves relegated. Now we have ourselves quite considerable sums of money available to replace quite a few players, but it will end in disaster according to you and others.

 

There can't be any mitigating circumstances in your mind, can there? Impossible to replace those we have lost, isn't it? Koeman couldn't possibly be better than Pochettino. The false premise on which this is being debated is all yours, as you make no allowances for any upside, which admittedly can sensibly be mitigated by some caveats.

 

As you have used a maritime analogy to illustrate our situation, I'll use one too. We are tacking to find a more favourable wind to speed us to our destination.

[Wes Tender]

I got 150/1 on us being relegated at the end of June. We're now 11/2!!!

 

You'll be so happy if you win the bet, won't you? I can detect your optimism getting bigger by the day.

[NickG]

Think some replies are confused, probably due to hot heated mindless ranting that has been going on!

 

To be clear, it is bad we are losing players we are attached to, good players, or young players with potential.

 

It is also much better to have a preseason like last year, with players in early and lots of positive energy.

 

Things are negative and we are not where we were last season.

 

However, I'm not sure what exactly people are disagreeing with in my OP? Even with the rumoured further departures we are probably better off than our 14th finish season - and Koeman spoke on Friday about several more signings to come, - for example we know we have bid for Forster.

 

The attempts to sign Forster totally undermines the continual moaning about KL lacking ambition and cashing in. Why would a team who has given up of premier league, or an owner cashing in bother signing another keeper at all, when we have the three that have given us 8th and 14th? Surely that would be an easy position to justify no spending - none have left, even with all three current keepers suffering injuries we had impressive season. So, no need to spend money there particularly if happy to be relegated or just stay up. But, no, they have bid for a young member of the England squad - please explain how that fits? (BTW any replies that mention just a PR stunt or deliberately bidding too low will be filed in nutter responses )

 

We have seen some uninspiring management appointments at other clubs. Koeman was the fans choice, but not cheapest option. Please explain how his appointment fits with board with no ambition? Further more added his experienced brother, well thought of Sammy Lee and England goalkeeping coach? Hmmm fire sale?

 

There was a blog linked on here, by a fan from another club, criticising saints for not allowing players to leave unless we get silly money, even mourinhio agrees! Players are being sold for huge fees, more than they are worth. The profits on Lambert and Lovren are bizarre. Club bending over too easily? That's not the general view, quite the opposite.

 

I knew Shaw was on borrowed time, quite clear when he was already the best in the premier league but hoped that we may get one more season. But £30m ffs??!!

 

People argue that there is no proof that Tadic and Pelle will adapt and be successes. I agree. I don't know how they will compare with Lallana and Lambert. However, I am very confident that Koeman would have preferred them. I also think there is decent chance they will be improvements - particularly Pelle. But it is exciting to watch and find out.

 

There are risks with signings, as there is with a new manager. Which is why I cannot guage where we are. Its gutting to see a team disappear, losing its identity, but can I suggest you look at all departures one by one, judge how player acted, the fee, the likely replacements, etc - even if you are dead against the board, can you see an explanation that would make them correct decisions? For balance, of course I can see an explanation that fits evil board so will reserve judgement until I see the football.

 

If Chambers stays, do you think it would good for his career waiting for Clyne to drop form or be injured? Imagine that doesn't happen this season? And we had turned down enough to be bringing Ings off the bench just to keep a second choice RB? Bit harsh on Chambers as I think he will get better and maybe suits other positions but you get my point.

 

Am I confident that we will sign more players? -yes. That they will all work out? No.

That we will be top half? No, but think we have decent chance.

 

Am I confident we are not in a fire sale or not given up on top half - yes

 

Read the times article on another thread.

[Cabrone]

Generally agree with the OP although top half might be tricky with so many changes. Don't think we'll be in trouble though.

 

We lost players who wanted out, it happens but we did get top dollar for them and the transfer window has a long way to go yet. Think we'll get some more good acquisitions - just getting a 2nd GK like Forster would make a huge difference to last season so I'm pretty relaxed about it all.

 

It's only football, supposed to be fun, can't see the reason to get all steamed up about it.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I got 150/1 on us being relegated at the end of June. We're now 11/2!!!

 

150/1. I smell bull.

[COMEONYOUREDS]

I smell fish

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Think some replies are confused, probably due to hot heated mindless ranting that has been going on!

 

To be clear, it is bad we are losing players we are attached to, good players, or young players with potential.

 

It is also much better to have a preseason like last year, with players in early and lots of positive energy.

 

Things are negative and we are not where we were last season.

 

However, I'm not sure what exactly people are disagreeing with in my OP? Even with the rumoured further departures we are probably better off than our 14th finish season - and Koeman spoke on Friday about several more signings to come, - for example we know we have bid for Forster.

 

The attempts to sign Forster totally undermines the continual moaning about KL lacking ambition and cashing in. Why would a team who has given up of premier league, or an owner cashing in bother signing another keeper at all, when we have the three that have given us 8th and 14th? Surely that would be an easy position to justify no spending - none have left, even with all three current keepers suffering injuries we had impressive season. So, no need to spend money there particularly if happy to be relegated or just stay up. But, no, they have bid for a young member of the England squad - please explain how that fits? (BTW any replies that mention just a PR stunt or deliberately bidding too low will be filed in nutter responses )

 

We have seen some uninspiring management appointments at other clubs. Koeman was the fans choice, but not cheapest option. Please explain how his appointment fits with board with no ambition? Further more added his experienced brother, well thought of Sammy Lee and England goalkeeping coach? Hmmm fire sale?

 

There was a blog linked on here, by a fan from another club, criticising saints for not allowing players to leave unless we get silly money, even mourinhio agrees! Players are being sold for huge fees, more than they are worth. The profits on Lambert and Lovren are bizarre. Club bending over too easily? That's not the general view, quite the opposite.

 

I knew Shaw was on borrowed time, quite clear when he was already the best in the premier league but hoped that we may get one more season. But £30m ffs??!!

 

People argue that there is no proof that Tadic and Pelle will adapt and be successes. I agree. I don't know how they will compare with Lallana and Lambert. However, I am very confident that Koeman would have preferred them. I also think there is decent chance they will be improvements - particularly Pelle. But it is exciting to watch and find out.

 

There are risks with signings, as there is with a new manager. Which is why I cannot guage where we are. Its gutting to see a team disappear, losing its identity, but can I suggest you look at all departures one by one, judge how player acted, the fee, the likely replacements, etc - even if you are dead against the board, can you see an explanation that would make them correct decisions? For balance, of course I can see an explanation that fits evil board so will reserve judgement until I see the football.

 

If Chambers stays, do you think it would good for his career waiting for Clyne to drop form or be injured? Imagine that doesn't happen this season? And we had turned down enough to be bringing Ings off the bench just to keep a second choice RB? Bit harsh on Chambers as I think he will get better and maybe suits other positions but you get my point.

 

Am I confident that we will sign more players? -yes. That they will all work out? No.

That we will be top half? No, but think we have decent chance.

 

Am I confident we are not in a fire sale or not given up on top half - yes

 

Read the times article on another thread.

 

Note you are not prepared to back up your views with my offer of a wager

[Professor]

So the almighty upheaval at Liverpool, losing the player responsible for placing them so high in the PL and replacing him with wholesale incoming players is not going to threaten them with relegation, but it is going to do that to us?

 

When a Club is taken over by some Russian oligarch, he can spend massive amounts of money on virtually replacing the entire team and they don't seem to get themselves relegated. Now we have ourselves quite considerable sums of money available to replace quite a few players, but it will end in disaster according to you and others.

 

There can't be any mitigating circumstances in your mind, can there? Impossible to replace those we have lost, isn't it? Koeman couldn't possibly be better than Pochettino. The false premise on which this is being debated is all yours, as you make no allowances for any upside, which admittedly can sensibly be mitigated by some caveats.

 

As you have used a maritime analogy to illustrate our situation, I'll use one too. We are tacking to find a more favourable wind to speed us to our destination.

Really not a good idea to compare us to Liverpool. They have reluctantly sold one player on disciplinary grounds, as we have had to lose Osvaldo but otherwise Liverpool are buying quality internationals whereas we appear to be in the process of selling virtually all of our stars. Anyone claiming not to see that Liverpool's strategy is aimed at staying in contention for the Championship, while ours indicates a downward past, really isn't being honest with themselves.

 

Things could change if the £30m transfer fund and all of the money from player sales is reinvested in the team but as each day passes that looks less likely. Replacements must surely be brought in but with only very limited rumours of who the club are looking at the idea that we might end up stronger, as Liverpool are, is fantasy..

[Hamwic]

I can't see it anywhere else but an article in today's Sunday Times gives a much more upbeat assessment of the club and its chances next season. It also questions whether or not the players transferred will actually produce what their new employers expect of them. As an aside, a Liverpool supporter asked me just how good Lovren was for us. My reply was that with big Victor Wanyama in front of him he looked invincible; without, he never quite seemed to live up to the hype.

[Saint-Fred]

The analogy wih the Russian billionaire teams who don't get relegated when buying new squads doesn't compare to us as they buy players who command £100,000 plus a week even with our wealth we are not in the market for those standard of players. Even then they never win the league year 1! For an more even comparison QPR Cardiff Sunderland Swansea?etc are more realistic.

Liverpool may have bought but can still field 10 of the last years first team should they choose so again not the same scenario.

It is possible that we my sign enough quality to keep us up but it will rely on us getting probably 8 new players in the squad and performing. I am also sure they won't challenge for the title this year.

Recent history shows our big money signings have not all made the step over without issues. However this time we can't afford that to happen.

 

My point is we are truly taking a very risky strategy and with 3 weeks till kick off we are leaving it awfully late.

If it works then RK should be manager of the season I just can't see how it can work. Don't forget every other team is strengthening too and planning to be out of the bottom 3 the difference is most of them know give or take a signing what there first team squad will be.

[WealdSaint]

If RK can get the same spirit among the players that Adkins & MoPo did then I can't see us going down. However, I can't remotely see a top 10 finish.

[Wes Tender]

Really not a good idea to compare us to Liverpool. They have reluctantly sold one player on disciplinary grounds, as we have had to lose Osvaldo but otherwise Liverpool are buying quality internationals whereas we appear to be in the process of selling virtually all of our stars. Anyone claiming not to see that Liverpool's strategy is aimed at staying in contention for the Championship, while ours indicates a downward past, really isn't being honest with themselves.

 

Things could change if the £30m transfer fund and all of the money from player sales is reinvested in the team but as each day passes that looks less likely. Replacements must surely be brought in but with only very limited rumours of who the club are looking at the idea that we might end up stronger, as Liverpool are, is fantasy..

 

I'm pretty sure that Liverpool would have been quite prepared to overlook Suarez' disciplinary problems if they could have kept him. I'm amused that you think that was the reason he left, instead of the real one, that he wanted to leave them for wads of dosh and to play for a better team, in much the same way that Lallana wanted to leave us. Almost most amusing to draw comparisons between Osvaldo and Suarez. He didn't actually bite one of their players, did he?

 

Liverpool are buying quality internationals from us mostly, although they have signed one or two others who were not our players. We are also intending to buy in some quality internationals too, I'm sure. I think that Liverpool's ambitions will be to stay in the Champion's League rather than being relegated to the Championship.

 

Why does it seem less likely that we will invest in quality players as each day passes? Please explain your reasoning? We could make several signings at once and we have until the closure of the window in which to do it. You seem to be one who believes rumours, which often can be started by players' agents wanting to generate interest in their players, or to increase their value or pay. Liverpool like to do their dirty washing in public, whereas we are well known for doing our business behind closed doors as much as possible. You go on believing the rumours you have heard and I'll be quite content to wait and see who we sign before making snap knee-jerk reactions.

[Wes Tender]

The analogy wih the Russian billionaire teams who don't get relegated when buying new squads doesn't compare to us as they buy players who command £100,000 plus a week even with our wealth we are not in the market for those standard of players. Even then they never win the league year 1! For an more even comparison QPR Cardiff Sunderland Swansea?etc are more realistic.

Liverpool may have bought but can still field 10 of the last years first team should they choose so again not the same scenario.

It is possible that we my sign enough quality to keep us up but it will rely on us getting probably 8 new players in the squad and performing. I am also sure they won't challenge for the title this year.

Recent history shows our big money signings have not all made the step over without issues. However this time we can't afford that to happen.

 

My point is we are truly taking a very risky strategy and with 3 weeks till kick off we are leaving it awfully late.

If it works then RK should be manager of the season I just can't see how it can work. Don't forget every other team is strengthening too and planning to be out of the bottom 3 the difference is most of them know give or take a signing what there first team squad will be.

 

The comparison with the oligarchs' plaything teams is just to illustrate that whole teams can be changed and yet there is none of this talk that they face the drop because so many changes to the team will mean that they cannot gel together. Liverpool will have made a similar number of changes and whereas yes, they could field more or less the team that they ended the season with, they will be without the player who more than any other was responsible for their high finish. I don't see any of the players signed being capable of what he gave them. A lot of the players have no doubt been signed to give them the depth they will need for the Champions League, but then again, those players will have to be integrated into a unit too. I'm not making the point because I believe that we can't integrate our new players into a team, I'm making it because I think it's codswallop to believe that just because we make many new signings, it is a given that we risk relegation as a result. If the players are rubbish compared to those we have lost, it is a possibility. But some posters on here are making predictions of relegation regardless of whom we sign.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So the almighty upheaval at Liverpool, losing the player responsible for placing them so high in the PL and replacing him with wholesale incoming players is not going to threaten them with relegation, but it is going to do that to us?

 

When a Club is taken over by some Russian oligarch, he can spend massive amounts of money on virtually replacing the entire team and they don't seem to get themselves relegated. Now we have ourselves quite considerable sums of money available to replace quite a few players, but it will end in disaster according to you and others.

 

There can't be any mitigating circumstances in your mind, can there? Impossible to replace those we have lost, isn't it? Koeman couldn't possibly be better than Pochettino. The false premise on which this is being debated is all yours, as you make no allowances for any upside, which admittedly can sensibly be mitigated by some caveats.

 

As you have used a maritime analogy to illustrate our situation, I'll use one too. We are tacking to find a more favourable wind to speed us to our destination.

 

Your comparison with Liverpool seems not very useful given that their transfer business this summer is (with one obvious exception) clearly an attempt to improve their squad while ours on the other hand is equally clearly being driven by the need to replace departing players we had probably not planned on losing in many cases.

 

You are attempting to compare apples with oranges in other words.

 

Nevertheless I will repeat that it seems to me that football squads are invariably better strengthened by a policy of evolution rather than by one of violent revolution. On that basis I would be more than a little surprised to see Liverpool repeat a top two finish again this season. Time will tell of course.

 

As for our club there are only 3 possibilities: we either maintain a top eight position, improve on that performance, or deteriorate. To be frank about it I'll back my judgement the of those three possibilities the latter is by far the most likely outcome over you and NickG's relentless 'sunnyside up' drivel seven days a week and twice on Sunday shipmate.

[Frank's cousin]

Trying to look at which is most likely as objectively as possible.

 

Relegation?

All bookies I have just looked at have us safely finishing 9th.

In the 12/13 season Nigel Adkins achieved 14th, and nicely safe before the end of the season with;

Boruc /Davies

Clyne

Yoshida

Jos

Fonte

Morgan

Lallana - at time when many slated him

Lambert

Fonte

Davis

Ramirez

Puncheon

JayRod - not same level as last season

Puncheon

Shaw (inexperienced 17 year old one.

 

Even if we lose Morgan, Chambers, Lovren and JayRod it won't be hard to recruit to better that squad. JWP, reed, Gallagher, isgrove add something. We won't get relegated.

 

Asset stripping / fire sale?

Looking at search signing independently they can easily be justified and prices good. What gets to people is the volume. Most people are amazed at the prices we are getting - we clearly aren't cheaply cashing in. How much profit on Lovren? Lallana double price of Tadic? Shaw one of most expensive defenders in history?

Would we want, or be able to attract Koeman if in a fire sale? His brother? Watson from another club? Sammy Lee? Much cheaper ways of doing it. We have had a confirmed bit for England squad player.

 

I think it is likely Koeman saw Pelle and Tadic as upgrades on Lallana and Lambert so jumped at chance.

Lovren the club wanted but his comments made it hard, nothing to do with ambition - money and CL.

Chambers? He is too good to be 2nd choice in a team of our level. Thought at end of season some sense in selling him. Great to have, but how likely would he sit behind another RB for a club like us?

 

I think we have had disappointing departures

I wish club would make some signings but facts still more consistent with aim of 7th than a relegation battle / fire sale / asset strip.

 

 

Fair and reasonable assessment Nick, but I think there is an issue that you may have overlooked. That of progression. Yes we may have enough with another couple to at least be safe as in the Adkins year. And had we just finished a couple of places above that last season, I don't think we would see anywhere near the levels of discontent with some of the sales we have seen. The problem IMHO is that given how much we improved and progressed with arguably only really Lovren and Wanyama providing any new impetus, with the rest coming from players improving and developing + coaching! the fact remains that now that experience! team ethic that took 5 years to build has gone in 5 minutes and it's that that can't be replaced in a few months no matter how good RK is. For the first time since the early 80s, we hay seempn consecutive years of genuine progress. I think we all acknowledged that we had not even reached the full potential of this squad, which could have gone on to even better things this season.... Had it stayed together. We will now never know what might have been possible, and for me and maybe others that loss is why it grates so much.... Especially when IMHO, we could have done more to keep it together.

[aintforever]

But some posters on here are making predictions of relegation regardless of whom we sign.

 

How is that any different to predicting we will stay up without knowing who we will sign?

[Ohio Saint]

150/1. I smell bull.

 

I smell fish

 

I call bullfish on that one.

[Wes Tender]

Y

As for our club there are only 3 possibilities: we either maintain a top eight position, improve on that performance, or deteriorate. To be frank about it I'll back my judgement the of those three possibilities the latter is by far the most likely outcome over you and NickG's relentless 'sunnyside up' drivel seven days a week and twice on Sunday shipmate.

 

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I'll back my judgement as pretty well maintaining our current position and improving the season after. Many of the naysayers were exactly the same ones who said we wouldn't get back into the PL as soon as we did, that Adkins wouldn't be as good as Pardew, Pochettino wouldn't be as good as Adkins, Lambert wouldn't make the step up to the second division, then the first, etc.